From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #109 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/109 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 109 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] what's so funny? Re: [B7L] worst opening Re: [B7L] Redemption photos Re: [B7L] Quotes IRL Re: [Fwd: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant (was Assassin)] Re: [B7L] Avon & Cally Re: [B7L] Rookie Fans Re: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant (was Assassin) Re: [B7L] Star Cops better than B7!!!! Re: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant Re: [B7L] Quotes IRL Re: [B7L] Quotes IRL Re: [B7L] Rookie Fans [B7L] worst openings Re: [B7L] Quotes IRL Re: [B7L] Quotes IRL Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Re: [B7L] worst openings [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) [B7L] Rookie Fans Re: [B7L] Rookie Fans Re: [Fwd: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant (was Assassin)] RE: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Re: [Fwd: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant (was Assassin)] Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Re: [B7L] Hard wood Re [B7L]: Pressure Point ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:35:37 EST From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] what's so funny? Message-ID: <6469141f.36f3b239@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Neil said: << And I saw this one get an entire roomful of people laughing: Orbit: Orac - '_Vila_ weighs seventy three kilos...' >> This one funny? Goodness, I thought it was absolutely chilling! Gail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:52:02 EST From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] worst opening Message-ID: <1cbe1c11.36f3b612@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit smanton gave us 6 entries from the << endearingly appalling competition >> of worst openings. Thank you, thank you, Sally! They are great! Gail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 15:32:08 -0000 From: "Dangermouse" To: "Judith Proctor" , "Lysator List" Cc: "Space City" Subject: Re: [B7L] Redemption photos Message-Id: <199903201532.PAA03494@gnasher.sol.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- > From: Judith Proctor > There are now another 40 odd photos from Redemption loaded up on my web page. Urgh - hideous picture of me... The Centauri hairdo has crumbled by that point... Next convention I do (probably Cult TV) I'll just leave the hair down and long, and go as Marcus Cole... (hopefully having lost a bit of weight too) -- "When two hunters go after the same prey they usually end up shooting each other in the back - and we don't want to shoot each other in the back, do we?" http://members.aol.com/vulcancafe ------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:21:04 From: Penny Dreadful To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Quotes IRL Message-Id: <3.0.6.16.19990320102104.1f8faf32@mail.geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mistral, rampant consumer of feet, inquired: >Does anyone else use any particular B7 quotes >on a regular basis IRL (with people who aren't B7 fen?) I used "You're very amusing -- for a dead man..." frequently for years without recollecting where it had originated. I also use the phrase "vulpine degenerate" a lot. My progeny favours the phrase, "Old man, don't be difficult!" -- substituting "woman" for "man" as the situation dictates -- it's all in the intonation... --Penny "QOOC" Dreadful ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:37:43 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [Fwd: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant (was Assassin)] Message-ID: <1d086a16.36f3dce7@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Ellynne wrote: > Just to offer my opinion, I think Avon was a product of the really bad > side of Federation Alpha life. He's been in an environment (certainly > for a long time, possibly his whole life) where people are predators or > prey. While he may have been exposed to Blake's kind of principles, it's > been with the understanding that these are things you push on the > ignorant masses to manipulate them. > > Because of that, he starts with very mixed feelings towards Blake. What > Blake spouts is what any Federation politician back home might spout, > speeches about the good of humanity and how they have to work together, > etc. And Blake means it. Avon's instincts would tell him anyone who > believed that was just one of the ignorant masses, while anyone who used > that as a recruitment speech couldn't be sincere. But Blake is sincere > and (whatever his weaknesses) he's not ignorant. > I tend to agree. It does make me wonder how Blake matured with his ideals intact, since he was also an Alpha. Nina ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:37:44 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & Cally Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Mistral wrote: > I do think there's love between them, just not romantic love. At that point in time, I'd have to agree. But my romantic streak wants to believe that if Cally hadn't died it might have changed. I think Avon *was* coming to trust Cally more and more with time and shared experiences; eventually, I think he might have seen that he *could* trust and love her as he had Anna, with nearly no risk of betrayal. Nina ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:37:41 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se, NetSurfCK@aol.com Subject: Re: [B7L] Rookie Fans Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Cynthia said: > > >I dearly love Blake's 7 and I'll continue to enjoy it on my own, but THIS > is > >not what I expected from fandom. > > > >Congratulations! You've eliminated one rookie fan. Penny replied: > I'm afraid this is one of the things you *have* to expect in fandom. Any > fandom. Human nature. I say don't give 'em the satisfaction of letting it > drive you off. I say *post even more*! Absolutely! I think that most of us *are* interested in newcomers and what they have to contribute. And it's good for those of us who've been fans for a long time to get a fresh perspective on things occasionally - otherwise, we'd wind up as cynical as the Snarly One. Re: Vick's original points: Boorishness is hardly a phenomenon restricted to fandom, B7 or otherwise. IMHO, rude and obnoxious questions or behaviour should be ignored with the contempt they deserve whenever possible, by fans and celebrities alike. OTOH, repetitious but polite questions sort of come with the territory, and even if they seem foolish or ignorant to those of us who are more knowledgeable they should be treated tolerantly and with respect. Sometimes, it's easy to forget that not everyone has the good fortune to have the level of access to information that we do, either online or through other fans. > --Penny "Currently Soliciting Funds To Come Over To England And Track Down > Paul Darrow And Corner Him And Ask Him If He Were A Tree What Kind Of Tree > He Would Be" Dreadful Change that question to "What Kind of Cat", and you can count me in! Nina ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:58:48 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant (was Assassin) Message-ID: <5gRqOUAIu582EwV1@jajones.demon.co.uk> In message <36F37082.C8C89365@ptinet.net>, mistral@ptinet.net writes >Yes, using the truth creatively is what I mean when I have said >'lying without lying'; I'm very good at it myself (although I do try >to avoid it these days); it's consistent with INTx, a basically >honest personality type; and you'll notice he's *not* very good at >a flat-out lie, unless he's trying to make himself look worse than >he is; perhaps he believes those. > Avon is very good at replying to a question with another question, answering a different question to the one asked, demonstrating why the court oath includes the phrase "the whole truth", getting people to think that he's lying when he isn't, and sundry other forms of misleading people. However, he very rarely uses a flat-out lie, ie a statement that he knows to contradict the truth (as he knows it). As Mistral says, it's a common behaviour pattern amongst that personality type. Two reasons are that direct lying is much more emotionally/morally uncomfortable for many of us than is encouraging others lead themselves up the garden path, and that it's too much like hard work to keep track of lies - it's much easier to avoid being caught out by contradicting yourself if you haven't used a flat-out lie in the first place. -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:06:34 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List cc: Space City Subject: Re: [B7L] Star Cops better than B7!!!! Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Fri 19 Mar, Steve Rogerson wrote: > The 50th issue of SFX out this week has a top 50 best SF shows of all > time compiled by a panel including various SF writers etc. > > Blake's 7 comes in at a disappointing 16th, behind Star Cops, which made > 13th. Dr Who won of course, but B7's lowly position is even more > annoying when you see Quatermass at 5, Thunderbirds at 6, UFO at 11 and > Sapphire & Steel at 15. Whilst I prefer B7 to Star Cops, I can't resist the opportunity to plug Chris Boucher's Star Cops novel. It's a good read in its own right even if you haven't seen the series. See what the man who wrote episodes like 'Shadow', 'Trial', 'Rumours of Death', and 'Blake' did when he was writing his own series. (There were a couple of characters in Star Cops who felt very B7ish, but I'll be honest and say that they'll mostly appear in the next novel. But then , we can only publish the next novel if this one sells well.) Incidentally, I know somebody promised to write a review... Hint Hint. 'An Instinct for Murder' costs 8 pounds including postage in the UK, 9 pounds in Europe, 10.50 pounds USA (or $18 cash) and 11 pounds Aus/NZ Cheques payable to Judith Proctor. I'll take pounds and $US in cash, Eurocheques and postal orders are fine. International Money Orders in pounds are fine. My address is 28 Diprose Rd, Corfe Mullen, Wimborne, Dorset, BH21 3QY, UK Judith PS. I'd appreciate it if people didn't send money by Recorded Delivery. For one thing, it doesn't increase the amount of compensation you get if it's lost in the post. For a second, I have a strong suspicion that such letters are *more* likely to be nicked because they look valuable. Thirdly, which is the real reason, I have to trek into Wimborne to collect the darn things if the postman calls while I'm out. I have to do that this morning, and that's time I could have spent gardening in the sunshine. -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:13:22 -0600 From: Lisa Williams To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant Message-Id: <4.1.19990320131232.00bacef0@mail.dallas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Julia Jones wrote: >direct lying is much more emotionally/morally uncomfortable for many of us >han is encouraging others lead themselves up the garden path, Plus, the latter is a whole lot more fun. - Lisa _____________________________________________________________ Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@raytheon.com Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/ New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 15:01:31 EST From: Carolyn772@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Quotes IRL Message-ID: <927cb3b7.36f3fe9b@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I took a mandatory management course at work, and during the first session the class was asked to describe themselves in ten or less words. I did my best to paraphrase Servalan's wonderful speech-- "There are no others like me. I am unique." I also use Vila's quote so often ("I plan to live forever or die trying") that when my boss passed through Hong Kong vacation, she brought me a souvenir gold charm of the Chinese character for "long life." Carolyn ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 1999 21:42:21 +0100 From: Calle Dybedahl To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Quotes IRL Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Carolyn772@aol.com writes: > I also use Vila's quote so often ("I plan to live forever or die > trying") that when my boss passed through Hong Kong vacation, she > brought me a souvenir gold charm of the Chinese character for "long > life." I have occasionally used "From strength, as we say, to unity" and "while there's life, there's threat" at work. -- Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se It is by Perl alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the regex of Larry that the code acquires flexibility, the flexibility enables obscurity, the obscurity generates a warning. It is by Perl alone I set my mind in motion. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:41:26 -0700 (MST) From: Penny Dreadful To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Rookie Fans Message-Id: <199903202041.NAA23414@pilsener.ucs.ualberta.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nina said: >Change that question to "What Kind of Cat", and you can count me in! Macavity: "There never was a cat of such deceitfulness and suavity." And everybody should please note how I am (wo)manfully resisting the urge to ask Neil whether the trees he mentioned are *ahem* hardwoods... --Penny "Zee Fallen Madonna..." Dreadful ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 19:33:37 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: [B7L] worst openings Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII I find it a little sad that everyone enjoys reading the old 'worst openings' but nobody seems to be contributing new ones. Come on, have a go. The computer expert turned to the big rebel, "That's another fine cliche you've gotten us into." Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 17:09:10 EST From: Tigerm1019@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Quotes IRL Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I've used "Reality is a dangerous concept" once in a while. Tiger M ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 09:20:34 +1000 From: "Afenech" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Quotes IRL Message-Id: <22172268308199@domain1.bigpond.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 'All knowledge is valuable' Pat F ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 16:51:49 -0600 From: "Lorna B." To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Message-Id: <199903202245.QAA20175@pemberton.magnolia.net> >Reuben said: > >> Fast forward to today. I can't have a discussion about Star Trek with >> most younger fans I meet. I get too worked up. The Original Trek, is now >> the "moldy" Trek. Dated, boring 60's crap. >> The Next Generation is good, but they'd rather watch Voyager and harp on >> at length about how great a charecter Cups of D (opps I mean 7 of 9) is. I agree with a lot of your points, but this bit kind of confused me. Aren't your own complaints about Voyager almost identical in feeling to the examples you give above of younger fans dismissing the "moldy Trek"? One fan's meat is another fan's poison, after all. :-) Lorna B. "Cookies and porn? You're the best mom ever!" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 18:17:00 EST From: SupeStud00@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Message-ID: <1afcf555.36f42c6c@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/20/99 5:53:25 PM EST, msdelta@magnolia.net writes: << The Next Generation is good, but they'd rather watch Voyager and harp on >> at length about how great a charecter Cups of D (opps I mean 7 of 9) is. >> For the record, she's a wonderful character (7 of 9) whom I feel is shortchanged by a great many female fans because she is very physically attractive. Is there some unwritten law that states that an intelligent female must look like Janet Reno to be respected? I happen to think many females feel they fall short in the looks department, and thus the reaction to 7 of 9. I would have liked to have seen more voloptuous femmes on B7.......though we had quite a few attractive female characters.....none could truly elicit that "umph" reflex that Jeri Ryan does from Trek fans. Who knows, B7 might still be showing new eps today........... "The Stud" Dexter Dice Clay ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 15:31:58 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] worst openings Message-ID: <36F42FEE.E7BD74A5@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kerr Avon stood amidst the blood, and smoke, and noise, gazing down at the bodies of his fallen comrades. Ringed about by Federation troopers, alone and outnumbered, he realized that he had come to the end of his story. He raised his rifle and smiled his most dangerous smile, noting absently as he did so that the rifle had polymorphed itself into his beloved teddy bear, Pooky...and then he woke up. Wearing a dangerous smile, Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 15:34:38 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: B7 Lysator Subject: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Message-ID: <36F4308E.6AC54F4D@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mistral@ptinet.net wrote: > Avon appears to be remarkably > secure about his education and intellect, I'll agree -- and > he also has some highly polished social skills -- with > regard to strangers, people he meets. But I know several > introverts (myself among them) who initially do well at > meeting people, as if performing on stage, but have rather > more difficulty at getting to know people, and establishing > appropriate levels of intimacy with them. At the risk of kicking to life that amazingly long I vs E thread: Flip the stats and imagine if introverts (not extraverts) made up 75% percent of the population. Then those "kiss and tell" extraverts would be considered the ones making the social gaffes. True, intoverts initially do well, even in a world of E's, for they can accurately execute the patterns of social civility. However, "we" are usually embarrassed at how quickly newly met people (extraverts) begin to spill forth the most intimate personal details of their lives! Introverts can feel embarassed by such an emotional outpouring of pain. (makes me want to flee) Your remark about "performing on stage" brings to mind some of the speakers in my Toastmasters club. I want to writhe in my chair when some new member (extraverted no doubt!) stands before the room to give their introductory speech and "tells all" about an unhappy childhood, terrible lifelong disease, unhappy love affair, etc. And visa versa, perhaps the extraverts feel that introverts, being politely restrained when it comes to spilling all those personal details to "strangers" - are being secretive, snobbish, selfish, etc. As when Dayna wheedles: "Avon! Why are you always so secretive?" And Avon, finding the question irrelevant, replies with a brush off: "Perhaps I'm shy." Introverts are often labeled "shy" when in fact, they are merely politely discreet. I can just imagine the first night sharing quarters aboard Scorpio "pajama party" conversation between Dayna and Soolin - E-Dayna prattling on about the time she and Lauren played "doctor" while I-Soolin sits uncomfortably tight-lipped. Reminds me of the time an extraverted causal business acquaintance/friend told me the in-depth tale about how, when she became financially successful, her husband became passive-aggressive, witholding sex and her resultant subsequent affair and how she was eventually dumped by him for a younger woman, blah blah blah. Frankly, I didn't care to know this about her past. I am always astounded that so many people will blather on at length about their long and painful liver transplant, etc. Don't people realize that others would far rather hear about "Something funny happened to me on the way to the forum"? Recently the book, EQ: Emotional Quotient has been making people talk. As one who relys on knowledge & skill (rather than buttering up my co-workers), I am abashed to hear people saying that in the workplace, emotional competence (that is, helping everyone to get along as one big smiley happy family) is vastly more important to success than either knowledge or skill. Sadly, I fear it is true. Vila would make a far more popular president than Avon. Perception is all. Perceptive Pat ________________________________________________________ NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:40:46 EST From: NetSurfCK@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Rookie Fans Message-ID: <63f74c90.36f4865e@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit << If you leave a group of people because of one idiot among them, you're going to spend your life doing a lot of leaving. >> Calle, this is really quite beautiful. I'm very embarrassed that I over-reacted as I did. I'm not sure why I took it so personally or why it hurt so much when I first read it. But for some reason it hit me like a slap in the face. I do apologize. I feel very silly now. Honestly, this is very unusual for me. My feelings are not generally so easily bruised. Oh, dear! Avon would probably have thrown me off the ship for displaying such gross sensitivity. Or worse, he would have shot me! Cynthia ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:55:15 EST From: ShilLance@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Rookie Fans Message-ID: <9fb8f37d.36f489c3@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/21/99 0:42:47 AM EST, NetSurfCK@aol.com writes: << << If you leave a group of people because of one idiot among them, you're going to spend your life doing a lot of leaving. >> Calle, this is really quite beautiful. I'm very embarrassed that I over-reacted as I did. I'm not sure why I took it so personally or why it hurt so much when I first read it. But for some reason it hit me like a slap in the face. I do apologize. I feel very silly now. >> Perhaps I missed something. Why exactly, were you planning to leave? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 06:05:31 -0700 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [Fwd: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant (was Assassin)] Message-ID: <19981030.060555.10302.0.Rilliara@juno.com> Despite what my clock says, it's 3/20/99 On Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:37:43 EST Pherber@aol.com writes: >Ellynne wrote: >> Just to offer my opinion, I think Avon was a product of the really >bad >> side of Federation Alpha life. He's been in an environment >(certainly >> for a long time, possibly his whole life) where people are >predators or >> prey. While he may have been exposed to Blake's kind of >principles, it's >> been with the understanding that these are things you push on the >> ignorant masses to manipulate them. > >I tend to agree. It does make me wonder how Blake matured with his >ideals >intact, since he was also an Alpha. > >Nina > > There were probably three main levels of Alpha society. There were Alphas who had privileges and important jobs but weren't actually part of the ruling class and didn't have contact with the corrupt elements (Blake's lawyer, who believed it was possible for Blake to have a fair trial was one of these). Like the lower classes, there was a heavy effort to indoctrinate them with the right attitudes and so on. Then there was the ruling class. Some of them seem to have been born to important families who used connections, influence, and possible monopolies of important resources to maintain their positions. Others achieved it through the military or other routes allowing for the advancement of those without the family connections (although military people complain about those who advanced because of connections, the fact they considered it unfair suggests a the Federation military had more egalitarian principles than the rest of Federation society). Then there were those who had important positions and were aware of the corruption (and possibly involved in it directly) without being part of the ruling class. Avon seems to fall into this catagory. My personal theory is that the Federation had various small groups, like the Clone Masters (who simply had a showier background accompaniment than most), who had monopolies on types of technology. This would explain how the Federation could be very advanced in some areas and quite backward in others. The military, although still very open to influence peddling, had a stronger interest in promoting talent. A person like Avon, who either lacked family connections or whose family seems to have written him off once he became a liability, would have to be twice as good and work three times as hard to get as much respect as a more connected Alpha. That alone might account for some of his arrogance (although it might just be the deep rooted belief he's better than everyone else). He didn't get ahead by letting people discount him. Blake grew up privileged but outside of most politics. He was also exposed at an early age to his rebel uncle. Hence, he had a background where working for an idealistic cause or for large, faceless groups made sense. When he realized the Federation's claim to do these things was false, he joined up with those he felt did. Avon, OTOH, would have been surprised anyone cared. Ellynne ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 09:20:57 +0100 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: B7 Lysator Subject: RE: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F10FB79@NL-ARN-MAIL01> Content-Type: text/plain Pat said: > Recently the book, EQ: Emotional Quotient has been making people talk. > As one who relys on knowledge & skill (rather than buttering up my > co-workers), I am abashed to hear people saying that in the workplace, > emotional competence (that is, helping everyone to get along as one big > smiley happy family) is vastly more important to success than either > knowledge or skill. Sadly, I fear it is true. Vila would make a far more > popular president than Avon. > As an emotional moron (EQ waaaaay down there), I know this to be true. I'm good at my job, but my boss keeps on harping to me about my social skills. And someday soon, I'm sure I'll figure out why EQ is so much more important than IQ when you're programming without ever coming into direct contact with the client :-/. Jacqueline ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 09:05:50 -0000 From: "Alison Page" To: "B7 Lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Message-ID: <01c401be737a$d8228d60$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat said - >Flip the stats and imagine if introverts (not extraverts) made up 75% >percent of the population. Then those "kiss and tell" extraverts would >be considered the ones making the social gaffes. What you are describing here (and in your entire post) IMHO is the difference between American and British society. Put it like this. I'm an extrovert, but I was sitting on the tube quietly reading (we do sometimes) and an American woman I had never seen sat next to me and started telling me about her personal life. I was tired so I buried my nose in my book and didn't respond. She put her hand across the book so I couldn't read it and said 'Say! You Brits use a different typeface in your books to us Yanks!' :-/ As Oscar Wilde said, we are divided by a common language. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 09:21:43 -0000 From: "Alison Page" To: "B7 Lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Message-ID: <01cd01be737c$6c6a5740$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I glanced through that book about emotional intelligence and I must say I really hated it. People were talking about Blake being manipulative. Well he's got nothing on these guys (err.. women).It seems to me the whole book is about politicking and manipulating and - frankly - fibbing your way to the top. Then this whole farrago is given the grand-sounding label of 'EQ'. Anyway, those who feel they lack this so-called skill should be proud of that lack, I think. On the subject of Blake, I don't think he does manipulate in the offensive way I've just described. (I know lots of people on the list disagree). For example in 'Trial' I don't think he's being a 'drama queen' - I think he really means to present them with a choice. That's not manipulative. But if he was just play-acting, and meant to guilt-trip them into obeying him, then that would have been manipulative in the worst way. Alison ------------------------------ Date: 21 Mar 1999 13:00:41 +0100 From: Calle Dybedahl To: B7 Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jacqueline Thijsen writes: > And someday soon, I'm sure I'll figure out why EQ is so much more important > than IQ when you're programming without ever coming into direct contact with > the client :-/. Because it's the one and only way the pointy-haired bosses can feel that they are "intellectually" superior to than the programmers, of course. (And if this thread continues, it should probably be in the spin list) -- Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se Try again. Try harder. -*- Fail again. Fail better. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 04:14:12 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Message-ID: <36F4E294.DAE4C656@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison Page wrote: > Put it like this. I'm an extrovert, but I was sitting on the tube quietly > reading (we do sometimes) and an American woman I had never seen sat next to > me and started telling me about her personal life. I was tired so I buried > my nose in my book and didn't respond. She put her hand across the book so I > couldn't read it and said 'Say! You Brits use a different typeface in your > books to us Yanks!' :-/ IMHO, this woman was just plain rude (she may have been nervous and therefore babbling, but she was still rude.) I'm an American, and I would be offended by anyone of any nationality who treated me in such a way (I am an introvert; I have difficulty responding to strangers who obviously *want* to talk to me, let alone impose myself on people who'd obviously rather read a book.) Mind you, I have read in the MBTI literature that British society is a perfect example of one of the types; I think it was INTP, but have just spent 30 minutes looking and can't find it; but I'm fairly certain it was one of the introverted, rational types, as it amused me (my friends have often accused me of acting more like a Brit than like an American.) From what I've read, American social values *are* strongly slanted toward extrovert behaviour; but that really doesn't mean that we're all as rude as this woman was. OB7R: This would mean that Avon & Orac would be more typically 'British' than, say, Blake and Cally. How does that assessment go over across the pond? Cheers, Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 02:39:15 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Message-ID: <36F4CC53.B3F34879@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison Page wrote (re Blake being manipulative): > For example in 'Trial' I don't think he's being a 'drama queen' - I think he > really means to present them with a choice. That's not manipulative. But if > he was just play-acting, and meant to guilt-trip them into obeying him, then > that would have been manipulative in the worst way. Leaving the question of whether Blake was manipulative aside, how can this particular instance be viewed otherwise? (I realize that sounds like a contradiction; but it's a question, not a challenge. Somebody who doesn't find that behaviour manipulative please help me understand this.) If this were not intended to be manipulative, then what do people think Blake would have planned to do on an unexplored planet with next to nothing in the way of supplies and no way to leave it? It appears to me that he expected them to pick him up, even though in his message he says they have a free choice. Seriously, has anyone thought about what he would have done next? It seems to me that even if the others decided to go on without him, he would have wanted to be dropped off somewhere where there were other rebels and he could have continued to fight the Federation, if he seriously expected the others to quit. ?????? Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 07:33:56 EST From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [Fwd: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant (was Assassin)] Message-ID: <62744e7d.36f4e734@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Ellynne wrote: < side of Federation Alpha life. >> and Nina replied: <> Well, remember that just because 2 different people grow up in equal or at least very similar social levels, there lives can still be quite different. I always suspected that although Avon had a privileged background, there was something not right with his family, giving him a very negative outlook on life. Perhaps his lack of trust in people, and his substituting money into that void, was caused by a distant, cold, arrogant mother or father who only valued accomplishments or what others thought rather than who Avon was or what he felt or if he even had any friends. Blake, on the other hand, could have had very gregarious, outgoing parents who loved to have people over and always encouraged him to do his best, but where not above a little emotional blackmail to get him to do what they wanted. My point is that you can have equal social status, and still lead very different lives, resulting in very different people. Gail ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:39:53 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: B7 Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Message-ID: In message <01cd01be737c$6c6a5740$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>, Alison Page writes >For example in 'Trial' I don't think he's being a 'drama queen' - I think he >really means to present them with a choice. That's not manipulative. But if >he was just play-acting, and meant to guilt-trip them into obeying him, then >that would have been manipulative in the worst way. This is one of the differences between the personality groups. I see it as manipulative, even though I don't for one minute think the emotion isn't genuine or that Blake is making a conscious effort to manipulate them. From my POV that very display of his emotions is manipulative. To explain why, I'd have to drift off Myers-Brigg and into games theory, and I don't have a suitable reference book to hand. Something else to put on my "books to buy" list. -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 07:49:09 EST From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Rueben wrote: <> and Lorna replied: << Aren't your own complaints about Voyager almost identical in feeling to the examples you give above of younger fans dismissing the "moldy Trek"? One fan's meat is another fan's poison, after all. :-)>> I agree with Lorna completely. The younger fans have a problem with older sci fi programs and movies because they are so used to all the modern special effects. And even though these old shows are supposed to take place in the future, you can only work with what you have, so they start to look dated. Also, these young fans lack an emotional attachment to a show that a person can have if they watched it while young, say a teenager. I can remember my whole family gathering to watch Star Trek (the original series), so this show has very special meaning for me. Also, it has to do with that willingness to suspend belief that the list was talking about earlier. If the effects are really dumb, you have to exert special effort to get into the story. Still, I wonder why people feel the need to put down one series and say their particular favorite is the best. I enjoy all of the Treks, and B7, and Dr. Who, and Bab5, without feeling a need to put down any particular version or any particular show. (Of course, B7 does have Paul Darrow, and that DOES give it an edge!) By the way, I rather like 7 of 9 and I also like Janeway. And of course, I love Spock! Gail ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 07:59:56 EST From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Message-ID: <8a9c5251.36f4ed4c@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Pat P. wrote: <> Although I agree with Pat that some of this can be the result of a difference in personality, I also think that sometimes people have such a need to share upsetting things with someone -- anyone -- that they do this almost by accident. Although naturally shy, I have found myself pouring out some upsetting incident to a virtual stranger just because the need to get it out was so great. When I am on the receiving end of such outpouring, I try to listen with compassion because I never know quite what this person's situation is. Perhaps he/she has no one else to talk to and is desperate. On the other hand, I hate perpetual moaners or people who always say things are so bad, everything is going to hell. Gail ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:08:51 -0000 From: "Alison Page" To: "B7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Message-ID: <003801be739c$174bf960$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From what I've read, American social >values *are* strongly slanted toward extrovert behaviour; but >that really doesn't mean that we're all as rude as this woman was. Oh. It didn't offend me or anything. I was just amused by the cultural difference. I've had a few emails from Americans since I posted this, saying I must have been upset and I shouldn't judge the whole culture on this basis. I want to make it clear I wasn't upset and I don't judge or criticise. It made me laugh, and when I got home I felt a bit guilty that I had given her such a hard time. Probably she thought I was a typically unfriendly British person :-) I'm just making a contrast between being an outgoing person in an introvert culture and being a shy person in an expressive culture. It can be difficult in either direction. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:31:07 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Hard wood Message-ID: <003f01be739b$ce5bcb40$43478cd4@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >And everybody should please note how I am (wo)manfully resisting the urge >to ask Neil whether the trees he mentioned are *ahem* hardwoods... Tall, straight and incredibly rigid. We also have a little yellow flower in Britain that goes by the name of Tormentil. Vaguely Avonish from Blake's POV, perhaps. And its scientific name is Potentilla erecta... Neil ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:52:00 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re [B7L]: Pressure Point Message-ID: <004201be739b$d20635a0$43478cd4@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Soliciting a bit of market research here... As many of you will know, I'm putting together a zine called Pressure Point. So far I've got enough material for about two thirds of my intended size for the zine (about 40 pages), and I notice that virtually everything is for 1st/2nd Season. (The one exception is a Blake post-Star One, so Blake appears in +AF8-every+AF8- story). My question is this: do I try and get some 3rd/4th season stuff to balance things out+ADs- or do I concentrate on early series material and tout the zine as such (ie+ADs- not for Tarrant/Dayna/Soolin buffs)+ADs- or do people really not care so long as it's worth reading? My eternal gratitude to all those who have contributed so far. But I still need +AF8-more+AF8-, dammit... Neil -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #109 **************************************