From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #111 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/111 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 111 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Star Cops better than B7!!!! RE: [B7L] Rookie fans Re: [B7L] Re: Stardrive and Dawn (was re Assassin) Re: [B7L] Worst openings [B7L] SFX (was Star cops better than B7!) RE: [B7L] Rookie fans Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy [B7L] Credit cards [B7L] Re: what's so funny? [B7L] test please ignore Re: [B7L] Worst openings Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Re: [B7L] Re: Paul Darrow Re: [B7L] Worst openings Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Re: [B7L] Rookie fans [B7L] Re: what's so funny, etc. [B7L] Re: Stardrive and Dawn (was re Assassin) Re: [B7L] Quotes IRL Re: [B7L] Rookie fans(Voyager, 7 of 9) [B7L] Re: Worst openings Re: [B7L] Re: Worst openings Re: Re [B7L]: Pressure Point Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) RE: Re [B7L]: Pressure Point Re: [B7L] Re: what's so funny? Re: [B7L] Re: Rookie fans Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Re: [B7L] worst openings Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Re: [B7L] Avon & Cally Re: [B7L] Rookie Fans ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:44:14 -0000 From: "Alison Page" To: "Lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Star Cops better than B7!!!! Message-ID: <001201be7472$8d981280$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Anyway, I'll forgive SFX anything for what they've done on page 23 of >the main mag heh heh I've seen it now, and it is worth taking a look at Alison ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:31:32 -0600 From: Reuben Herfindahl To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" Subject: RE: [B7L] Rookie fans Message-ID: <0F144D2FBA41D211A6A000A0C9DD630DF387@STPNT4> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > -----Original Message----- > From: SupeStud00@aol.com > To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se > Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 5:16 PM > Subject: Re: [B7L] Rookie fans > > > >In a message dated 3/20/99 5:53:25 PM EST, > msdelta@magnolia.net writes: > > > ><< The Next Generation is good, but they'd rather watch > Voyager and harp on > > >> at length about how great a charecter Cups of D (opps I > mean 7 of 9) > is. > >>> > > > >For the record, she's a wonderful character (7 of 9) whom I feel is > >shortchanged by a great many female fans because she is very > physically > >attractive. Just so you know, I'm a male fan, and where I do think Jeri Ryan is pretty good looking, I just don't think she adds as much to the show as is justified by her outfit. Part of it is that she just doesn't click with me as a character, but another part of it is that the outfit is so obviously a play to pick up viewers. Sci-Fi has been saddled with the "busty female" tack on sterotype for so long, and it has only been lately that it seems to have started shedding that image. Voyager hasn't helped things much. It also gets a bit old when the execs think they have to have a "Spock" type charecter for every series. Tuvok wasn't working so in comes straight faced 7 of 9 with the whole non-emotion/emotion discovery thing again. Yawn- been there, done that. Break new ground. It's more interesting. Is there some unwritten law that states that an > intelligent > >female must look like Janet Reno to be respected? No, I know plenty of attractive, intellegent females. I respect them, and those around them do as well. Sadly, enough I think they have to battle a bit more for the respect, but that seems to be changing. I happen > to think many > >females feel they fall short in the looks department, and > thus the reaction > to > >7 of 9. I would have liked to have seen more voloptuous femmes on > >B7.......though we had quite a few attractive female > characters.....none > could > >truly elicit that "umph" reflex that Jeri Ryan does from > Trek fans. Who > >knows, B7 might still be showing new eps today........... > > I don't know about that. B7 had some very nice looking females. Jenna was quite good looking. One of the things I love about her charecter is how often she throws the sterotype back into your face. She uses her charm to get close to the "baddie" in an episode and then, when the time is right, overpowers him or defeats him in someway. It's a shame her charecter took much more of a background role in series 2. She's also the one I wish we could have seen again in Blake, or I always picture as being key to any PGP scenario. Reuben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 02:38:50 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Stardrive and Dawn (was re Assassin) Message-ID: <000e01be7479$6e2780a0$b2418cd4@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harriet wrote: >Neil wrote, a long time ago but I've been away: >>Atlan drops a hint that he is not, in fact, a Space Rat >>at all, but quite what he is instead goes unmentioned - >>a serious omission (unless it was cut from the original >>script). To me this echoed the stock reactionary idea >>that people like me at that time were supposedly being >>funded from Moscow, and it made me a little bit angry. > >Oh - I thought he was a capitalist trying to get control of the shipping >lanes? Yeah, I didn't explain this too well - the point is not exactly who or what Atlan is, more that the Space Rats are the witless pawns he uses to fulfil his ambitions. And since we're resurrecting ancient threads, or at least those a week or more old, I remember something else that someone said that I meant to comment on but couldn't because of work. (I've just spent 20 mins trawling through old posts, with no luck). It's the Jenna/Free Trader connection. I was surprised when I first found fanfic writers setting up a background for Jenna which hinged on an independent Free Trader society, with dynastic houses and stuff. Hellhound does it, I believe, and so does Alice Aldridge in her Gambit saga. All in contradiction of comments in Pressure Point and The Keeper that suggest Jenna was just another Earther. (Admittedly, Aldridge does do an extremely good job of depicting the Free Trader society in her Jenna/Travis epic.) To me, Jenna saying she wasn't a smuggler but a free trader was more on the level of 'I'm not a garbage collector, I'm a refuse disposal operative' - a redefinition to defuse the negative connotations of the popular term and, in Jenna's case, give her occupation a quasi-legitimate status. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:32:43 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Worst openings Message-ID: <000f01be7479$6f01b400$b2418cd4@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Avon rubbed his hands with glee as he stared at the calendar. Why, November was all but over, and in a few short weeks it would be Christmas. Avon did so _love_ Christmas. ----------- Blake bounced breezily onto the flight deck, feeling refreshed after a long and restful sleep. 'Good morning, Avon,' he said cheerfully. The surly tech looked up from the control panel and tensed within his brightly studded leather. 'Don't try to manipulate _me_, Blake,' he snarled. ----------- 'Blake,' growled Avon lustily, 'I want you to give me a shag. Right here and now.' 'Certainly,' Blake replied, scooping up the glossy-green fish-eating seabird huddled under the flight controls. 'Here, take it, it's costing me a fortune in pilchards.' ----------- So there they were, Blake and Avon, marooned on a desolate lifeless planet, neither of them knowing how long it would transpire before Liberator could return to collect them, assuming that indeed the ship would ever return. As the biting cold gnawed deep into their very bones, both men knew that only one recourse lay open to them. Blake insisted on making the first move. 'Right,' he said, taking a deep breath. 'I spy, with my little eye...' --------- Sorry, best I could manage Neil ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:34:07 -0000 From: "Wendy Duffield" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] SFX (was Star cops better than B7!) Message-Id: Content-type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT 7F00,0000,0000Steve said recently :- > Anyway, I'll forgive SFX anything for what they've done on page 23 of > the main mag (the top 50 is a separately numbered pullout). I'm not > going to tell you what they've done but I'm sure everyone on this list > will love it. I don't want to spoil the surprise. We can discuss it when > most people have had a chance to see it. It's brill, it really is. I agree wholeheartedy with Steve, i went out and bought SFX today and the bit on page 23 is superb Please, more people read it so that we can discuss it was Steve says, it would be good material for the list to chew over !! 0000,0000,0000Wendy mgb@tesco.net ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I don't give my allegiance at all, i sell my skill " - Soolin (Power B7) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:40:26 -0600 From: Reuben Herfindahl To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" Subject: RE: [B7L] Rookie fans Message-ID: <0F144D2FBA41D211A6A000A0C9DD630DF389@STPNT4> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > -----Original Message----- > From: Lorna B. > To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se > Date: Saturday, March 20, 1999 4:50 PM > Subject: Re: [B7L] Rookie fans > > > > > > > >>Reuben said: > >> > >>> Fast forward to today. I can't have a discussion about > Star Trek with > >>> most younger fans I meet. I get too worked up. The > Original Trek, is > >now > >>> the "moldy" Trek. Dated, boring 60's crap. > >>> The Next Generation is good, but they'd rather watch > Voyager and harp on > >>> at length about how great a charecter Cups of D (opps I > mean 7 of 9) is. > > > >I agree with a lot of your points, but this bit kind of confused me. > Aren't > >your own complaints about Voyager almost identical in feeling to the > >examples you give above of younger fans dismissing the "moldy Trek"? > > > >One fan's meat is another fan's poison, after all. :-) > > Yeah, they are. Except I still watch Yoyager every few months, and really try to go in with an open mind. They just do something so stupid every time that it scares me off for a few more months. (The last time I watched it was that waterplanet episode. ). I watched the first two years of it religiously, hoping it would get better before realizing my time could be better spent. So I'm a bit hypocritical. Ohh well, I sometimes think there's a bit of a hypocrite in all of us, it's just usually called getting older. :-) Reuben ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:12:47 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: B7 Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Message-ID: <36F5B52F.B5B8EDBF@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mistral@ptinet.net wrote: > All of which could lead to the questions: Was Avon > removing the geeky nerd disguise to reveal the space > pirate underneath, or assuming the guise of space > pirate in order to accomplish a goal; and was Vila really > an outgoing, social extrovert or actually a quiet, > thoughtful, mastermind pretending to be a cowardly > drunken buffoon in order to maintain his privacy. > Perhaps we've completely misinterpreted *all* the > characters; has there ever been a fanfic in which *all* > the characters were actually *completely* different > from what they purport to be? That's one I'd love > to read! Oh my! You do have a devious mind. This sounds like a job for ... BIZARRO! PS. This bounced back to me when sent directly, so will post to list: re: nookie fans: Susan Beth, This is the funniest thing I've seen all month. :-D chortle, snort, hahahaha thx for posting! pat > >And what is all this about "rookie fans"? > What's wrong with being a 'nookie fan', I'd like to know? Every *single person* on it is a-- > > Eh? What's that? > > Oh. > > Nevermind. ________________________________________________________ NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:24:40 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: B7 Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy Message-ID: <36F5B7F8.B484925C@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tramila wrote: > >As when Dayna wheedles: "Avon! Why are you always so secretive?" > >And Avon, finding the question irrelevant, replies with a brush off: > >"Perhaps I'm shy." > > IRRELEVANT!!!! Why is that question irrelevant? Hummmm. Irrelevant as in not about to provide any useful information. Dayna is actually asking Avon to change his communications style. To tell them all everything all the time. Avon sees no point in that sort of behavior. It would just waste his valuable time, which could be better spent thinking of ways to keep them all alive. He is not about to become a blatherer and not about to explain to Dayna why not. If she can't figure out why he doesn't chit chat the way Vila does - well, she can just go chit chat with Vila! > Oh MY!!!!!! > Poor Dayna. no.no.no.! Poor Soolin! > Tramila goes hunting for 'forum' jokes to tell Pat during NasFic in August. > (Wonder how many I can tell her because she goes stark raving mad.> AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHGGGGGGG! > Bet you're sorry you encouraged me to join this list. > Extrovert Tramila giggles and hugs to her friend, Pat. > then bounces all over the place. Bet everyone else is sorry, too! :-D Pat runs for cover from flying cow pies ________________________________________________________ NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:00:59 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: [B7L] Credit cards Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII I've been looking into what it would cost for me to be able to accept credit card payments for zines and been rather horrified at the cost. At a rough guess, it would cost around 1.50 pounds per transaction. I can't really imagine people being willing to pay that kind of overhead, but if I'm wrong and people find the convenience worth the the cost, then let me know. I won't go for it unless there's quite a few people interested. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:16:10 -0500 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] Re: what's so funny? Message-ID: <199903221416_MC2-6EEA-EF84@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sally mentioned among her favourite funny moments: >But my special favourite is in Gambit - Servalan trying to explain her >plotting to Jarriere. She is trying *so* hard to be patient (not her >strong suit) and he is making such *earnest* attempts to follow - and >failing so dismally... Well, of course, he can't risk blowing his cover by demonstrating that he has seen through her feeble plan through the start... I tend to laugh at completely trivial things, like the little pause when Avon says "by force... if necessary" in Voice from the Past. Harriet Jarriere's Always Discriminating Enthusiasts ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:26:48 -0000 From: "Wendy Duffield" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] test please ignore Message-Id: Content-type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT please ignore calle has identifies something funny happening with my mail headers and i am trying to find out what it is sorry to take up bandwidth Wendy mgb@tesco.net ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I don't give my allegiance at all, i sell my skill " - Soolin (Power B7) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 19:19:29 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Worst openings Message-ID: In message <000f01be7479$6f01b400$b2418cd4@default>, Neil Faulkner writes > >'Blake,' growled Avon lustily, 'I want you to give me a shag. Right here >and now.' > 'Certainly,' Blake replied, scooping up the glossy-green fish-eating >seabird huddled under the flight controls. 'Here, take it, it's costing me >a fortune in pilchards.' ROFLMAO OK, so which zine editor is going to be brave enough to take these on? -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:43:10 EST From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I wrote: > On the other hand, I hate perpetual moaners or people who always say things > are so bad, everything is going to hell. And Mistral replied: < >> Why, I haven't found your posts helplessly pessimistic, but rather thought- provoking and interesting and intelligent and engaging and fascinating and absorbing and stirring and amusing and refreshing! Gail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:21:01 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Paul Darrow Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Mon 22 Mar, Deborah Day wrote: > > I have just been reading an old Horizon newsletter, and saw that Paul Darrow > states that it is not his real name. Does anybody know what he really is > called? Yes. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:08:46 From: Penny Dreadful To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Worst openings Message-Id: <3.0.6.16.19990322160846.1e5748f2@mail.geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I never knew Nature was such a pervert. Two turtledoves and a Shag in a Frequent Service Tree...speaking of Travis and Kiera... --Penny "The Hahaha Mad" Dreadful ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:29:29 EST From: Carolyn772@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Message-ID: <41fdeef1.36f6d259@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >Even then there's the poor public opinion of fandom in general to >consider. I usually counterpoint with the obsessive fan in any arena. There was a photo on the front page of the local paper of a group of (male) basketball fans, sitting in the stands, wearing bright green afro-style wigs, with the team's name painted on their bare chests. They made your average Klingon look pretty tame. Carolyn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:42:00 EST From: SupeStud00@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/22/99 1:16:17 PM EST, ShilLance writes: << > >For the record, she's a wonderful character (7 of 9) whom I feel is > >shortchanged by a great many female fans because she is very > physically > >attractive. << Just so you know, I'm a male fan, and where I do think Jeri Ryan is pretty good looking, I just don't think she adds as much to the show as is justified by her outfit.>> Then you are either blind, or the male part of you is truly dead. Ryan defines Voyager. << Part of it is that she just doesn't click with me as a character, but another part of it is that the outfit is so obviously a play to pick up viewers.>> Of course it is, and any male who refuses to accept that that outfit would "pick" him up is living in big time denial. >> Sci-Fi has been saddled with the "busty female" tack on sterotype for so long, and it has only been lately that it seems to have started shedding that image. Voyager hasn't helped things much.>> 7 of 9 is a fully realized character who happens to have a great body. Are you sure your problem is with the fact that she is underdeveloped? (Characterwise that is.) << It also gets a bit old when the execs think they have to have a "Spock" type charecter for every series. Tuvok wasn't working so in comes straight faced 7 of 9 with the whole non-emotion/emotion discovery thing again. Yawn- been there, done that. Break new ground. It's more interesting.>> 7 of 9 is new ground. Is there some unwritten law that states that an > intelligent > >female must look like Janet Reno to be respected? << No, I know plenty of attractive, intellegent females. I respect them, and those around them do as well. Sadly, enough I think they have to battle a bit more for the respect, but that seems to be changing.>> Exactly my point, they are subjected to the same ignorance to which 7 of 9 is subjected. I happen > to think many > >females feel they fall short in the looks department, and > thus the reaction > to > >7 of 9. I would have liked to have seen more voloptuous femmes on > >B7.......though we had quite a few attractive female > characters.....none > could > >truly elicit that "umph" reflex that Jeri Ryan does from > Trek fans. Who > >knows, B7 might still be showing new eps today........... > > <> But I wouldn't define any of them as buxom. << Jenna was quite good looking. One of the things I love about her charecter is how often she throws the sterotype back into your face. She uses her charm to get close to the "baddie" in an episode and then, when the time is right, overpowers him or defeats him in someway. It's a shame her charecter took much more of a background role in series 2. She's also the one I wish we could have seen again in Blake, or I always picture as being key to any PGP scenario. >> I agree, they shortchanged us by not bringing her back for Blake.....but Jenna, is nowhere near in the same league as 7 of 9, or any other female character on Voyager. B7's females were simply not presented well.......... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:58:30 -0700 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: what's so funny, etc. Message-ID: <19981030.105832.9966.2.Rilliara@juno.com> On Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:00:05 -0800 mistral@ptinet.net writes: > > >Ellynne G. wrote: > >> On Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:32:55 -0800 mistral@ptinet.net writes: >> >Kathryn, maybe you'd better not read this until you >> >finish those stories you're working on ;) > >Check the scene between Dayna and Vila near the end. Dayna >isexplaining to >Vila that Cally wouldn't let the alien kill Avon not >because it was Avon, but because he was the only one who >understood what was going on well enough to back it into that >particular corner -- she wouldn't have let it kill *any* of them, but >only Avon understood that well enough to make the attempt. > Yes, but we're dealing with _Dayna's_ interpretation of events. First, I still think that look was quite meaningful. Second, even Dayna admits Vila's death would have been incidental in the alien's attempt to get rid of Avon, who she saw as the _greatest_ threat against her. Third, she caused considerable discomfort for Vila, Tarrant, and (possibly) Dayna (I'm assuming Dayna walked over and knelt down on the floor for reasons other than dramatic appearance). Fourth, this story explores Cally's loyalties and her relationships with her crewmates. A large part of that is the Cally/Avon relationship. Fifth (and most importantly), this script was by Tanith Lee. While I haven't read all that much of her stuff, I've read enough to know where she's going when there's underlying romantic tension between an anti-hero and warm hearted heroine (although, canon-wise, that may be cheating). Ellynne ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:32:26 -0700 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Stardrive and Dawn (was re Assassin) Message-ID: <19981030.105832.9966.0.Rilliara@juno.com> On Sun, 21 Mar 1999 20:55:09 -0500 Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> writes: >>because Cally looks so utterly human, then the Auronar >>must ultimately be of Earth origin (a conviction I know I'm >>not alone in sharing). To suggest otherwise is to fly in the >>face of everything we know about the evolution of species. Well, there is convergent evolution (which makes dolphins, sharks, and ichthyosaurs look alike), but I agree with you. Here is comes, the Things I Liked About Dawn of the Gods 1) It showed our heroes do socialize in ways other than sitting around throwing witty insults and one liners at each other. 2) The way everyone (but Avon [oh, all right, and Vila]) quickly turned on Cally when strange things began to happen. It showed some of the underlying prejudices, tensions, and loyalties of the group. 3) the background about Auron. I know some people have mentioned problems about the myth Cally cited, a million years being rather long and two people being a rather small gene pool. However, there's a way time is often referred to in myths and legends. There are myths in different cultures which all fit the same story type where the long period of time given varies from ten days to a thousand years, depending on the common phrase used by the culture. A million years is an unusual choice, but it probably serves the same purpose as the others and simply means "a very long time" or "an age" or some such. As for the two people, this would probably be either the Auronar incorporating their old myths into a new situation or the altering of the historical events to fit mythic patterns. 4) A villian besides Servalan and the Federation! (Even if he does keep his "blow up planet" switch in the middle of a crowded room). Ellynne ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 10:44:58 -0400 From: Cam MacLeod To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Quotes IRL Message-ID: <36F505E8.E75D4946@ilap.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've used Servalan's quote to great effect: "When you know an enemy's strengths, and can use them against them, they become weaknesses." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:18:04 -0700 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Rookie fans(Voyager, 7 of 9) Message-ID: <19981030.111806.9966.3.Rilliara@juno.com> On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:42:00 EST SupeStud00@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 3/22/99 1:16:17 PM EST, ShilLance writes: > ><< > >For the record, she's a wonderful character (7 of 9) whom I feel >is > > >shortchanged by a great many female fans because she is very > > physically > > >attractive. > ><< Just so you know, I'm a male fan, and where I do think Jeri Ryan >is pretty > good looking, I just don't think she adds as much to the show as is > justified by her outfit.>> > >Then you are either blind, or the male part of you is truly dead. >Ryan >defines Voyager. > And this is a good thing? Actually, I like 7 of 9, but Voyager as a whole rarely works for me. ><< It also gets a bit old when the execs think they have to have a >"Spock" >type > charecter for every series. Yes and no. Star Trek seems to work best with an odd man out character, a character who is the alien to the Star Trek society, but they work in different ways. Spock was Spock. Data was Pinnochio. Odo (pardon the pun) was the changeling. 7 of 9 is the wolf-child, the feral child raised by beasts and never entirely sure she wants to give up being the predator. Voyager _tried_ to start with an overload of outsiders (Tom [rejected by Federation and Maquis], Belonna, the Maquis, Harry [the greenie], the Doctor, Kes, etc) and then put them in an environment where their differences became inconsequential compared to the need to survive and work together. Blah. 7 of 9, on the other hand, always feels perfectly free to question human society and her supposed need for it. She's also the only character to consistently question the supposed all-knowing wisdom of Janeway. > > > > I would have liked to have seen more voloptuous femmes >on > > >B7 >But I wouldn't define any of them as buxom. > >but >Jenna, is nowhere near in the same league as 7 of 9, or any other >female >character on Voyager. B7's females were simply not presented >well.......... > Yes, but buxom wasn't in during the 70's. As for female characters on Voyager other than 7 of 9, don't get me started. Some of them are OK, but Janeway drives me nuts. Even Kirk was wrong sometimes (and didn't Spock and McCoy let him know it). Janeway isn't. Ever. And her character is always being sacrificed for whatever is the politically correct moral for the story of the week Oh, well, enough ranting for today. Ellynne ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 99 03:39:00 GMT From: s.thompson8@genie.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Worst openings Message-Id: <199903230405.EAA27629@rock103.genie.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ellyne, this is wonderful! LOL! It's not just an opening, it's a whole little story in itself. I bet a zine editor would like to have it. Sarah T. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 20:29:24 PST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Worst openings Message-ID: <19990323042926.18454.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain >Ellyne, this is wonderful! LOL! It's not just an opening, it's a whole > little story in itself. I bet a zine editor would like to have it. >Sarah T. I hope so. I don't think it counts as a "worst" opening. Regards Joanne PS: Neil, nice one. Trust you to remember that piece of idiom also refers to wildlife! Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:55:50 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: Re [B7L]: Pressure Point Message-ID: <000801be74fe$ac9df1e0$2217ac3e@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Judith wrote: >PS. I assume +AF8- is meant to be italics? The normal e-mail convention is to >use * to indicate italics as this avoids the problem. It's actually the underline character, which I adopted for emphasis since my asterisks were getting garbled. Seems my question marks are as well. Is there a way to fix this in Outlook Express Neil ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:58:02 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Message-ID: <000901be74fe$ad675c60$2217ac3e@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mistral wrote: > > >Oooooohh! See, Neil, you =can= play the game when you try! > Irony's lost on some people, isn't it. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:37:48 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Message-ID: <36F744CB.DCEAC92@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neil Faulkner wrote: > Mistral wrote: > > > > > >Oooooohh! See, Neil, you =can= play the game when you try! > > > > Irony's lost on some people, isn't it. Apparently.Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:49:19 +1000 From: Taina Nieminen To: "'B7'" Subject: RE: Re [B7L]: Pressure Point Message-ID: <01BE7555.7AE4D680@TENZIL> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit < Neil>> Yes. Taina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:22:21 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: what's so funny? Message-ID: <19990323082221.16867.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain re Servalan and Jarriere, Harriet explained that gorgeous baffled look as: Oh I *see* (which is more than he ever does)...so he's really both brilliantly Machiavellian and a wonderful actor to boot (I mean, he does kerflummoxed so well). Clearly Blake should have recruited him. And I still wish someone had put Avon and Jarriere together, if only for a short time. Pateince is even less *his* strong point than it is Servalan's. Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:38:48 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Rookie fans Message-ID: <4DB0E0F127E@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Steve wrote in response to Vick's letter on Rookie Fans. > This hits me as very elitist. I'd be more worried about the state of > fandom if there wasn't a new stock of "highly enthusiastic even > obsessive young fans" out there. They are the next generation that are > going to keep fandom alive. Sure, they'll make mistakes, upset the odd > actor, create a bad impression. They're young, that's what young people > do and that's what we all did once if we are honest enought to admit it. I really, really would like to be able to agree whole heartedly with you. How old do you think I am? > Good. I want to see more new blood having a bash at writing fanzines and > running conventions and websites. Take Xena fandom, for example. The > first symposium last year was run by a group of enthusiastic fans who > had never done it before and it just oozed fun and let's have a go. > Other new Xena fans are running the By The Gods nights at Pages, and > they are excellent evenings and a welcome addition to fandom. As to > actors, they are probably tired about answering the same questions, but > they know it goes with the job and they know the person asking hasn't > heard the answer before, which means this is a new fan and there's > nothing an actor likes more than a new fan. I only hope that this is true. I could well be running my first convention (B7, Red Dwarf, Doctor Who) in september, and I hardly feel qualified to take it on, even though I've had offers of help, and I've got a lovely venue. Xena though, is not in this case a good example as it's a new fandom. The fans can't be rookies, as it hasn't been done before and done better. Vick 'Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use.' Kerr Avon. (B7 ep 52 'Blake') ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:55:20 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Message-ID: <4DB546A5073@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Judith wrote in response to Rookie fans > You sound as though you have specific examples in mind. At the same time, I > can't think of anything in B7 that fits your pattern, so are you commenting > mainly with regard to a different fandom? Actually, I can think of a couple of > conventions that folded, but I know of no badly run B7 clubs or fanzines. There perhaps isn't a specific example, though I come from a mixed fandom of Blake's 7 and Doctor Who. 'Who fandom is full of politics, which unfortuanatly gets in the way of having fun and enjoying the series itself. I've only been an active fan for about a year or so (B7) I did run a multi sci-fi club for a couple of years before that which was unimaginably awful. The old club was run under a Star Trek fandom banner (though none of us were Trekkies) and we had to play be their rules. > > Even then there's the poor public opinion of fandom in general to consider. > > This begs the question; do fans really have any moral obligations at all? And > > should they? > > We're doomed by some parts of public opinion no matter what we do. Frankly, > I've mostly given up bothering about it. I remember one con organiser who used > to be really worried if there were many fans at the con in fancy dress because > he knew the press would focus on them, no matter how many other fans attended in > normal clothes. Does this mean we should never dress up? Stuff that for a load > of old cobblers! I'm going to enjoy myself and have fun with my friends. Worse than that, I've found that the press target any attendees with mental or other disablities. This is not to say that I have anything against disabled people having fun at a convention, heaven forbid! But it doesn't do anything for the public image of the fans if this is all the press focus on. They're giving out the wrong message, and anything I could say against their approach could only make me appear a spoil sport for these poor people. When a club does get trouble, no-one has sympathy for what they percieve as being a bunch of weirdoes anyway. Talking of dressing up, I'm just as likely to do that on a day to day basis. > So, that's my position for what it's worth. Treat new fans just the same as old > ones, and hope that fans old and new will treat the cast as human beings with a > right to personal space and privacy. Thanks for the advice. Vick 'Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use.' Kerr Avon. (B7 ep 52 'Blake') ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:59:28 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Message-ID: <4DB66023285@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Tiger wrote: > So what if other people think I'm weird for liking the things > I like. They've thought that since I was five years old and the smartest kid > in the class. That sounds like me actually. My relatives can never get their heads round some of my more bizarre interests and 'room decorations'. Yes, and I was the smartest kid in the class too. Vick 'Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use.' Kerr Avon. (B7 ep 52 'Blake') ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:00:48 +0000 (GMT) From: "U.M. Mccormack" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] worst openings Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 'Blake' Cally cried, as the teleport brought the rebel into focus. 'You were left behind while the teleport rescued me to face the slavering death-monster of doom - how did you cope?' Blake paused. Then replied, 'First, I was afraid. I was petrified...' Una - shameleesly theiving from the Mary Whitehouse Experience ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:02:43 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Message-ID: <4DB73C53B67@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Vick wrote: > > The question I raise is based on the assumption that there are a lot > > of highly enthusiastic even obsessive young fans, late teens, early > > twenties out there, who thought they know their subject, know > > nothing of the tacit agreements known by the long term fans. > > Do you have any reason whatsoever to believe such fans exist? If so, > tell us about it. As it is now, you mainly come across as insulting to > young fans. This isn't the insult it appears to be. I *am* a young fan, and the biggest rookie out. That's why I'm on such a guilt trip. If you take this post from whenst it comes, suddenly everything falls into place. Vick 'Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use.' Kerr Avon. (B7 ep 52 'Blake') ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 02:08:17 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & Cally Message-ID: <36F76810.9ED244C6@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nina wrote: > Mistral wrote: > > > I do think there's love between them, just not romantic love. > > At that point in time, I'd have to agree. But my romantic streak wants to > believe that if Cally hadn't died it might have changed. I think Avon *was* > coming to trust Cally more and more with time and shared experiences; > eventually, I think he might have seen that he *could* trust and love her as > he had Anna, with nearly no risk of betrayal. Nearly no risk? *Nearly* no risk? "Almost is never good enough."--Avon It seems as if many fen interpret the events in 'Rumors' to be a matter of dealing with old business in preparation to Avon moving on in his emotional life, hence clearing the way for a relationship with Cally. I see it rather the other way around -- in 'Rumors' we see the most devastating personal betrayal of Avon's life; I think he's *less* likely instead of more likely to be ready to try again with anybody else at this point, *particularly* Cally, since she is a deep-feeling crusader-type like Blake, and a telepath to boot; ergo she is going to want him to 'be his best self', as she would see it, while he would view it as her trying to change him; and I think he would resent that. This is a fairly typical male-female conflict anyway, and it would be aggravated by the fact that, cut off from her people, she is particularly lonely and wants intimacy, while he would be more likely after 'Rumors' to want some space. IMHO, Cally would be better off with any of the other men, particularly either Blake, who shares her views, or especially Vila, who is a very warm, feely, friendly type; and Avon would be better off with a more independent, less emotionally invasive woman like Soolin or Jenna; someone who would be likely to understand or even share his need for distance. It's been my personal experience that two people who ordinarily both need a lot of space can become quite close over time, because eventually they each realize that the other is not going to overstep personal boundaries; so the boundaries get pulled back and pulled back, until eventually there are no boundaries at all; but to get to that place, you have to start with the willingness *not* to be close -- that's not a place I see Cally being able to start a relationship with Avon. BTW, Nina, don't think I have no romantic streak just because I don't see Avon/Cally; remember I'm the one who goes all soft watching 'Headhunter' ;-) Grins, Mistral -- "There's always an argument."--Avon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:11:41 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Rookie Fans Message-ID: <4DB9A601623@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Cynthia wrote: > Congratulations! You've eliminated one rookie fan. I've eliminated two, if I can count myself. Yes, you did read that correctly. Vick. 'Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use.' Kerr Avon. (B7 ep 52 'Blake') -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #111 **************************************