From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #112 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/112 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 112 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Re: Stardrive and Dawn (was re Assassin) Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Re: [B7L] Rookie fans [B7L] Avon, Cally, and Tanith Lee (was Re: what's so funny, etc.) Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Re: [B7L] Avon & Cally Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin) Re: [B7L] Rookie Fans Re: [B7L] Pictures from Pressure Point Re: [B7L] Avon & Cally [B7L] Spinoza and Avon Re: [B7L] Avon & Cally & Orac Re: [B7L] Spinoza and Avon Re: [B7L] Avon, Cally, and Tanith Lee (was Re: what's so funny, etc.) Re: [B7L] Re: Paul Darrow Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy Re: [B7L] Intimacy etc. Re: [B7L] worst openings Re: Re [B7L]: Pressure Point RE: [B7L] Rookie fans RE: [B7L] Rookie fans(Voyager, 7 of 9) Re: [B7L] Avon, Cally, and Tanith Lee (was Re: what's so funny, etc.) Re: Re [B7L]: Pressure Point Re: [B7L] Rookie fans ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 02:16:58 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Stardrive and Dawn (was re Assassin) Message-ID: <36F76A19.BEF654B1@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neil Faulkner wrote: > To me, Jenna saying she wasn't a smuggler but a free trader was more on the > level of 'I'm not a garbage collector, I'm a refuse disposal operative' - a > redefinition to defuse the negative connotations of the popular term and, in > Jenna's case, give her occupation a quasi-legitimate status. I'd like to second Neil, here -- it seemed almost as if Jennawas going so far as to say that the smugglers were, in their own way, freedom fighters -- striking a blow for economic freedom against what might have been a system that was as economically as ideologically repressive. TTFN, Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:09:28 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Message-ID: <4DB910A1C76@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Tramila wrote: > > Were you any different when you discovered fandom? Were you (or should I > say the writers of your era) any better at writing, plotting, or producing > a fanzine? I wouldn't know, I've only been a fan for around 1 and a half years. Suddenly, I've put it all into perspective, haven't I? Vick. 'Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use.' Kerr Avon. (B7 ep 52 'Blake') ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:25:48 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Message-ID: <4DBD696790B@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Mistral wrote: > Mind you, I have read in the MBTI literature that British society > is a perfect example of one of the types; I think it was INTP, Where the hell did you get that from? If British society was INTP, then that would make me normal!! Why does the US film industry think that all Brits are either Giles from Buffy, or Hannibal the cannibal? > but > have just spent 30 minutes looking and can't find it; but I'm fairly > certain it was one of the introverted, rational types, as it amused > me (my friends have often accused me of acting more like a Brit > than like an American.) I know a lot more brits than you do, obviously being one, and I only wish you were correct. You haven't discovered the cult of the miserable wannabe Mancunian from the South yet, or any of the other strange desirable stereotypes. We've still got a class system remember! > From what I've read, American social > values *are* strongly slanted toward extrovert behaviour; but > that really doesn't mean that we're all as rude as this woman was. Is that why you lot had Ruby Wax deported? > OB7R: This would mean that Avon & Orac would be more typically > 'British' than, say, Blake and Cally. How does that assessment > go over across the pond? What a lot of rot. I think they're more like Germans. Vorsprung Deuich Technik (or something) as they say in Europe. > Cheers, > Mistral > -- > "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila > > 'Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use.' Kerr Avon. (B7 ep 52 'Blake') ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:32:42 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Message-ID: <4DBF426436B@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Mistral wrote: > > Save B7 fandom -- Mentor a rookie! > > And sincere thanks to Vick for bringing up a topic that > really *does* deserve to be thought about. > So I *have* got a friend. Vick 'Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use.' Kerr Avon. (B7 ep 52 'Blake') ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 03:18:25 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: [B7L] Avon, Cally, and Tanith Lee (was Re: what's so funny, etc.) Message-ID: <36F77880.BDA4E07C@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ellynne G. wrote: > Yes, but we're dealing with _Dayna's_ interpretation of events. First, I > still think that look was quite meaningful. Sure, we just disagree on the meaning. > Second, even Dayna admits > Vila's death would have been incidental in the alien's attempt to get rid > of Avon, who she saw as the _greatest_ threat against her. Because he was the one who'd figure it out; that doesn't mean that he was the only one Cally wouldn't want to kill, just that he was the only one who'd press the issue. Remember that at the alien's funeral, Avon was *predicted* to be her death, or possible death. She would obviously recognize him as the threat, since she recognized the others. > Third, she > caused considerable discomfort for Vila, Tarrant, and (possibly) Dayna > (I'm assuming Dayna walked over and knelt down on the floor for reasons > other than dramatic appearance). That's not the same as killing them. > Fourth, this story explores Cally's > loyalties and her relationships with her crewmates. A large part of that > is the Cally/Avon relationship. Yes, but from Cally's viewpoint only; you can't make assumptions about Avon's feelings from the alien's actions. The alien only had a mental connection to Cally. > Fifth (and most importantly), this script was by Tanith Lee. While I > haven't read all that much of her stuff, I've read enough to know where > she's going when there's underlying romantic tension between an anti-hero > and warm hearted heroine (although, canon-wise, that may be cheating). Yes, I totally agree, you have put your finger on the crux of the matter; it's precisely because Tanith Lee wrote this script that I interpret it the way that I do; IMHO, both of Tanith Lee's scripts, although imaginative and quite enjoyable, are tonally at variance with the rest of the show. I don't quite believe Servalan collapsing into a weeping little girl in Sand, either. It requires me to *really* suspend my disbelief and allow that it was lack of time to fill in believable motivation that makes it acceptable. The problem with 'Sarcophagus' is bigger than the one with 'Sand', however. Interpreting 'Sarcophagus' as support for Avon/Cally, IMHO directly contradicts a lot of what has gone before it. Example: In 'Children of Auron' and 'Rumors' both, we see a *lot* of antagonism between the two; and not the stereo- typical romance-novel-style sparring, either, but real hostility, particularly on Cally's part. 1) Avon wants to go after Anna's killer; Cally is *vehemently* opposed to this course of action. She is openly critical of him; in fact states she's not staying on Liberator to be with him. 2) Cally wants to save the Auronar; Avon doesn't. This makes her even angrier. 3) Avon spends five days being tortured to avenge his lost love -- over Cally's protests. More anger. 4) Avon tells Anna quite clearly that there has never been anyone else for him since her. I don't think he's talking about sex here; he's saying that no other woman has a claim on his heart. Cally hears him say this. In the absence of Tanith Lee's script, it might be reasonable to assume a neutral relationship up until 'Rumors', and that if Cally had not died, something might have developed later; up until 'Sarcophagus' it appeared to me that the scripts had been carefully engineered to allow one to see or not see any kind of relationship there that one wished to see; but Tanith Lee's script pretty much hits you in the face with *some* sort of emotion in that 'meaningful look'. I was happier with the way things had been handled previously; but given the hostility in 'Children of Auron' and 'Rumors', and the fact that 'Sarcophagus' is the next script on after 'Rumors', I just can't see how it's possible to jump from Cally's hostility and Avon's devotion to Anna, toward Avon/Cally based on one 'meaningful look'. IMHO, the more reasonable conclusion is that Cally had feelings for Avon which weren't returned, and 'Children of Auron' and 'Rumors' drove that concept home to her. As I say, I preferred the neutral scenario that we had been presented with previously, but 'Sarcophagus' pretty much forced you, IMHO, to choose one way or the other. I've enjoyed some of Tanith Lee's books, but I'm not sure I don't wish that she'd stayed away from B7. As always, just IMHO, Mistral -- "Unnecessary emotion only clouds the issue."--Avon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 03:22:58 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Message-ID: <36F77991.E49076DA@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit VJC wrote: > Mistral wrote: > > > > > Save B7 fandom -- Mentor a rookie! > > > > And sincere thanks to Vick for bringing up a topic that > > really *does* deserve to be thought about. > > > > So I *have* got a friend. "Sometimes one's friends can be more of a liability than one's enemies."--Avon Mistral ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:03:41 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Message-ID: <4DD784409C5@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Gail wrote: > I agree with Lorna completely. The younger fans have a problem with older sci > fi programs and movies because they are so used to all the modern special > effects. Pathetic isn't it. Some things are so surface, scratch it and there's nothing underneath. B7 is one of the most beautifully scripted shows in TV history, so who cares about the hairdryer spaceships? > And even though these old shows are supposed to take place in the > future, you can only work with what you have, so they start to look dated. > Also, these young fans lack an emotional attachment to a show that a person > can have if they watched it while young, say a teenager. I can remember my > whole family gathering to watch Star Trek (the original series), so this show > has very special meaning for me. Also, it has to do with that willingness to > suspend belief that the list was talking about earlier. If the effects are > really dumb, you have to exert special effort to get into the story. These days, TV is disposable. A bit of willing suspension of disbelief never hurt anyone. It's better than watching TV with your brain powered down because you have to work at it. Incedentally, isn't this exactly what you do at the theatre? > Still, I wonder why people feel the need to put down one series and say their > particular favorite is the best. I enjoy all of the Treks, and B7, and Dr. > Who, and Bab5, without feeling a need to put down any particular version or > any particular show. (Of course, B7 does have Paul Darrow, and that DOES give > it an edge!) > > By the way, I rather like 7 of 9 and I also like Janeway. So do I, Seven is my favorite, and I also think she's an INTJ. > And of course, I love Spock! I can't say as I share your enthusiasm for him though, but I like Data and used to like Odo, until he got stupid. Vick 'Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use.' Kerr Avon. (B7 ep 52 'Blake') ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:14:16 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & Cally Message-ID: <4DDA5AE7D5A@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Mistral wrote: > > > I do think there's love between them, just not romantic love. Let's get back to basics. Avon was an intuative. Cally was an intuative. Short of Orac, she was the *last* intuative. (save possibly Servalan) Sensates have problems relating to intuatives, intuatives likewise with sensates. Between Avon and Cally, therefore was a simple empathic understanding. It was also present between Avon and Blake, though there distinct oppositional poles made its presence somewhat redundant. But still it was there, and it was perhaps because of that, and their reluctancy to address it that they were so opposed. Cally and Avon simply were two of a kind, though one was a thinker, bitter and cynical, the other, a feeler, saw hope that was not there. Descartes (?) placed intuition above intellect and emotion. Perhaps this is why. Prove me wrong on this one! Vick 'Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use.' Kerr Avon. (B7 ep 52 'Blake') ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:26:18 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin) Message-ID: <4DDD8D13194@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Neil Wrote: > Anyone who gets up Avon's nose deserves a quiet clap now and > again. I think Eurostar could get up Avon's nose. It's definately a two car garage. < snigge r> Couldn't resist that. Sorry. Embarrassed at my sudden turn toward crassness, Vick. 'Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use.' Kerr Avon. (B7 ep 52 'Blake') ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:31:05 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Rookie Fans Message-ID: <4DDED2D3269@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Mistral wrote: > For heaven's sake, Vick, don't drop out now when this is > almost all resolved. Lots of people misunderstood, is all. > I think you made a good point, didn't you read my post? > All fans, including us newbies, have responsibilities to > the fandom and to the stars, etc. Be tough and stick > around -- I know you can (actually, if I can, anybody can). > Your contribution is important -- don't let those nasty > INTP self-doubts get to you! I've already left once if you remember, I'm meant to be working and all I do is answer blasted e-mails!! > You should try bouncing. Life does not always have to > be serious! Tried it. Vick > > 'Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use.' Kerr Avon. (B7 ep 52 'Blake') ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:09:31 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Pictures from Pressure Point Message-ID: <4DE92263C27@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > >Does anyone have any stills of Kasabi and Travis, and Veron from > >Pressure Point, ie. grabs from video? > > Well, there are the 158 images from "Pressure Point" in my frame capture > library (URL in my sig), several of which feature those characters. Thank you so much, Lisa, this is exactly what I was after. Grateful, Vick 'Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use.' Kerr Avon. (B7 ep 52 'Blake') ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:17:18 -0000 From: "Alison Page" To: "B7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & Cally Message-ID: <004201be752f$97b53320$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vick said - >>Descartes (?) placed intuition above intellect and emotion. << I think it was Spinoza. He called it 'scientiva intuitiva' (or something like that). He meant the immediate perception of the connectedness of all things. Perhaps Avon and Cally both perceived this connectedness but in different ways. Come to think of it, I think Orac did too. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:40:45 -0000 From: "Alison Page" To: "lysator" Subject: [B7L] Spinoza and Avon Message-ID: <004a01be7532$d90ee840$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Writing my last post about Spinoza I went and fetched his treatise 'of Human Bondage' and started leafing through it. I was very struck at how many of the things he wrote so long ago, I can imagine Avon sharing his opinions. 'No virtue can be conceived as prior to the endeavour to preserve one's own being' 'Nothing is certainly good and evil, save such things as help or hinder us in our understanding of the cosmos' 'the free man, who lives among the ignorant, strives as far as he can to avoid receiving favours from them.' 'In so far as a mind conceives of a thing under the dictates of reason, it is affected equally whether the thing be future, past or present' I think that last quote sums up Avon very neatly. He isn't emotionless, but his emotions are not unduly affected by the contingent presence or absence of the object. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:42:55 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & Cally & Orac Message-ID: <4DF1FA0112E@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Alison wrote: > I think it was Spinoza. He called it 'scientiva intuitiva' (or something > like that). He meant the immediate perception of the connectedness of all > things. > > Perhaps Avon and Cally both perceived this connectedness but in different > ways. Come to think of it, I think Orac did too. I *know* Orac did too. This is why the forth series crew though that Avon kept them in the dark. All his plans were made with Orac, because Orac was the only person (or thing) capable of understanding on that level. Doesn't this bring me right back to the holistic approach, and the 'Orac complex'? Orac was, I think, an INTP to boot. Which means besides the obvious differences, Avon and Orac were the same. Tracing a path through the pattern of infinity, Vick 'Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use.' Kerr Avon. (B7 ep 52 'Blake') ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:24:26 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Spinoza and Avon Message-ID: <4DFD0EB6F38@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Alison wrote: > Writing my last post about Spinoza I went and fetched his treatise 'of Human > Bondage' and started leafing through it. I was very struck at how many of > the things he wrote so long ago, I can imagine Avon sharing his opinions. > > 'No virtue can be conceived as prior to the endeavour to preserve one's own > being' This is very relavent. > 'Nothing is certainly good and evil, save such things as help or hinder us > in our understanding of the cosmos' Isn't logic pure black and white? 'We are Grey. We stand between the Darkness and the Light.' > 'the free man, who lives among the ignorant, strives as far as he can to > avoid receiving favours from them.' Why not recieve favours from them, as long as it's expedient to the free man? > 'In so far as a mind conceives of a thing under the dictates of reason, it > is affected equally whether the thing be future, past or present' This much is true. > I think that last quote sums up Avon very neatly. He isn't emotionless, but > his emotions are not unduly affected by the contingent presence or absence > of the object. I think I've opened a whole new can of worms here, give me a bit of time to think about it. The heirarchy between emotion, intellect and intuition may well be credited to Pascal. Didn't they call themselves Intuitionists or something? This creed actually suits Avon better than Rationalist does, as the Rationalist way of thinking is far too concrete and pragmatic. Avon is an abstract thinker, the more intellegent of the two persuasions. I'm not too sure about my history here, so here's where I bow out. Vick 'Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use.' Kerr Avon. (B7 ep 52 'Blake') ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:35:05 +0000 From: Russ Massey To: mistral@ptinet.net Cc: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon, Cally, and Tanith Lee (was Re: what's so funny, etc.) Message-ID: In message <36F77880.BDA4E07C@ptinet.net>, mistral@ptinet.net writes > >The problem with 'Sarcophagus' is bigger than the one with >'Sand', however. Interpreting 'Sarcophagus' as support for >Avon/Cally, IMHO directly contradicts a lot of what has gone >before it. I think you're over stating the case here, but I'll answer the points as they come up. > Example: In 'Children of Auron' and 'Rumors' both, we >see a *lot* of antagonism between the two; Not really that much. > and not the stereo- >typical romance-novel-style sparring, either, but real hostility, >particularly on Cally's part. That's not real hostility, I saw that as strong disagreement on moral grounds - something that crops up in arguments all the time. Real hostility involves savage insults, and/or violence. > 1) Avon wants to go after Anna's killer; Cally is *vehemently* >opposed to this course of action. She is openly critical of him; in >fact states she's not staying on Liberator to be with him. But since no one had actually said otherwise, the very fact of her denial acts to reinforce the idea that she *is* staying because of an attraction. And the significant looks from the rest of the crew seem to indicate that this is not lost on them either. I see this scene as one of *the* major indicators of Cally's (semi-unwilling, semi- unacknowledged) attraction toward Avon. There's no other reason for the remark to have been made in that form. > 2) Cally wants to save the Auronar; Avon doesn't. This makes >her even angrier. Understandable, but not necessarily enough to make her hate him. > 3) Avon spends five days being tortured to avenge his lost >love -- over Cally's protests. More anger. Could it not have been the anger that someone feels when someone they care for are in pain and they themselves can do nothing about it? > 4) Avon tells Anna quite clearly that there has never been >anyone else for him since her. I don't think he's talking about >sex here; he's saying that no other woman has a claim on his >heart. Cally hears him say this. > Mmm. This is a good point. There again, men can change and women believe that they can change them :) I don't see this as an insuperable barrier to an Avon/Cally relationship, especially as Anna is no longer in a position to object. >In the absence of Tanith Lee's script, it might be reasonable >to assume a neutral relationship up until 'Rumors', and that >if Cally had not died, something might have developed later; >up until 'Sarcophagus' it appeared to me that the scripts had >been carefully engineered to allow one to see or not see any >kind of relationship there that one wished to see; The 'engineering' is, to my mind, more positive an indication of a relationship than otherwise. I think what I'm trying to say here is that the very existence of a will they/won't they situation means that they almost certainly *will*, otherwise it wouldn't have been mentioned at all. > but Tanith >Lee's script pretty much hits you in the face with *some* sort >of emotion in that 'meaningful look'. > It's not so unsubtle that there are still quite a few fans who read nothing into it. I'm not one of them :) -- Russ Massey Sirius Games, 161 Montague Street, Worthing, West Sussex BN11 3BZ (01903 217334) http://www.wriding.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:39:28 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Paul Darrow Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > On Mon 22 Mar, Deborah Day wrote: > > > > I have just been reading an old Horizon newsletter, and saw that Paul > Darrow > > states that it is not his real name. Does anybody know what he really is > > called? Judith replied: > Yes. Thank you. That's very helpful. Nina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:39:23 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy (was Tarrant / Assassin) Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/21/99 6:13:01 AM Mountain Standard Time, N.Faulkner@tesco.net writes: > I don't know if it's an introvert thing or not, but what I find annoying > about personal detail is the way 99 per cent of it is irrelevant. If I'm > showing my friend my latest work injury I'll just point to the scab and say > 'Did this the other night,' whereas if she tells me anything that happened > to her I get where, when, what she was doing and why - all peripheral to the > pertinent details. Very timewasting. I think Avon would agree with me on > that, at least. I think you're sliding from I vs E into male vs female communication differences, there. But I'm sure you're right that Avon would agree with you! Nina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:39:27 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & intimacy Message-ID: <65e8ea25.36f7a79f@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/22/99 10:36:27 AM Mountain Standard Time, pussnboots@geocities.com writes: > Tramila wrote: > > >As when Dayna wheedles: "Avon! Why are you always so secretive?" > > >And Avon, finding the question irrelevant, replies with a brush off: > > >"Perhaps I'm shy." > > > > IRRELEVANT!!!! Why is that question irrelevant? Hummmm. Pat replied: > Irrelevant as in not about to provide any useful information. Irrelevant, maybe, But it's an absolutely priceless straight line for the response. Nina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:39:32 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Intimacy etc. Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/21/99 11:32:23 PM Mountain Standard Time, rilliara@juno.com writes: > >Gail, as to what kind of cat Paul Darrow would be-- he's a dog man. > >Dachshund. Charming pictures of the new puppy in the Avon club > >newsletter! > > Yes, but Avon would be a cat person. > Agreed. Dogs would remind him too much of Vila and Tarrant. Cats he would understand. But what I want to *know* is what *kind* of cat PD would be, not if he likes them or not. Avon's a panther, or maybe a big black alleycat, but what about PD? Nina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:39:24 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] worst openings Message-ID: <67eb2821.36f7a79c@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/21/99 7:36:57 AM Mountain Standard Time, master@sol.co.uk writes: > Morden: What do you want? > > Avon: Well, now... OOOhhhh! That has *possibilities*...... > Is it just me or does anybody else wish they'd get Gareth and Paul on (in > character) Space Ghost Coast To Coast? Oh my, yes! Avon and Zorak would get on famously, I'm sure! Nina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:39:21 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: Re [B7L]: Pressure Point Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/21/99 6:12:53 AM Mountain Standard Time, N.Faulkner@tesco.net writes: > Soliciting a bit of market research here... > My question is this: do I try and get some 3rd/4th season stuff to balance > things out+ADs- or do I concentrate on early series material and tout the > zine > as such (ie+ADs- not for Tarrant/Dayna/Soolin buffs)+ADs- or do people > really not > care so long as it's worth reading? I'm pretty much in that last group, but if it does turn out to be all early stuff, it couldn't hurt to make a marketing point of it, IMHO. Good luck! Nina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 08:57:42 -0600 From: Reuben Herfindahl To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" Subject: RE: [B7L] Rookie fans Message-ID: <0F144D2FBA41D211A6A000A0C9DD630DF395@STPNT4> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Reuben wrote: > ><< Just so you know, I'm a male fan, and where I do think > Jeri Ryan is > pretty > > good looking, I just don't think she adds as much to the show as is > > justified by her outfit.>> > > To which SupeStud00@aol.com replied: > >Then you are either blind, or the male part of you is truly > dead. Ryan > >defines Voyager. > > Okay, lets stay away from the personal cuts. Just because I don't like 7 of 9 doesn't give you licence to resort to name calling. Read what I wrote again. I was talking about getting away from the negative sterotype and how her charecter is not good enough to justify the blatent attempt to attract viewers that her body hugging outfit obviously is. I was not saying that I did not find her attractive. > ><< Part of it is that she just doesn't click with me > > as a character, but another part of it is that the outfit > is so obviously > a > > play to pick up viewers.>> > > > >Of course it is, and any male who refuses to accept that > that outfit would > >"pick" him up is living in big time denial. > > > >>> Sci-Fi has been saddled with the "busty female" > > tack on sterotype for so long, and it has only been lately > that it seems > to > > have started shedding that image. Voyager hasn't helped > things much.>> > > > >7 of 9 is a fully realized character who happens to have a > great body. Are > >you sure your problem is with the fact that she is underdeveloped? > >(Characterwise that is.) > > Not under developed, just uninteresting. The series should not be driven by a charecter picked up halfway through the run. Which I think you would have a difficult time arguing that the series has not been dominated by 7 of 9's development since her introduction. > ><< It also gets a bit old when the execs think they have to have a > "Spock" > >type > > charecter for every series. Tuvok wasn't working so in > comes straight > faced > > 7 of 9 with the whole non-emotion/emotion discovery thing > again. Yawn- > been > > there, done that. Break new ground. It's more interesting.>> > > > >7 of 9 is new ground. > > Well, We'll just have to disagree on this one. > ><< Jenna was > > quite good looking. One of the things I love about her > charecter is how > > often she throws the sterotype back into your face. She > uses her charm > to > > get close to the "baddie" in an episode and then, when the > time is right, > > overpowers him or defeats him in someway. It's a shame > her charecter > took > > much more of a background role in series 2. She's also > the one I wish we > > could have seen again in Blake, or I always picture as > being key to any > PGP > > scenario. >> > > > >I agree, they shortchanged us by not bringing her back for > Blake.....but > >Jenna, is nowhere near in the same league as 7 of 9, or any > other female > >character on Voyager. B7's females were simply not presented > well.......... > As I believe someone else pointed out, that wasn't really in style back then. Truthfully I'd take Jenna over 7 of 9. Jenna's a bit closer to reality. Reuben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:07:25 -0600 From: Reuben Herfindahl To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" Subject: RE: [B7L] Rookie fans(Voyager, 7 of 9) Message-ID: <0F144D2FBA41D211A6A000A0C9DD630DF396@STPNT4> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ellynne G. > To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se > Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 10:03 PM > Subject: Re: [B7L] Rookie fans(Voyager, 7 of 9) > > >><< It also gets a bit old when the execs think they have > to have a > >>"Spock" > >>type > >> charecter for every series. > > > >Yes and no. Star Trek seems to work best with an odd man > out character, > >a character who is the alien to the Star Trek society, but > they work in > >different ways. Spock was Spock. Data was Pinnochio. Odo (pardon the > >pun) was the changeling. 7 of 9 is the wolf-child, the feral > child raised > >by beasts and never entirely sure she wants to give up being the > >predator. Voyager _tried_ to start with an overload of > outsiders (Tom > >[rejected by Federation and Maquis], Belonna, the Maquis, Harry [the > >greenie], the Doctor, Kes, etc) and then put them in an > environment where > >their differences became inconsequential compared to the > need to survive > >and work together. Blah. > > Hmm, good points. I guess maybe for me the "odd man out" theory only really worked for me in the original Trek. Data never intrigued me and Odo started out good, but kinda fizzled. Sisco and Kira to me carried DS9, Riker and Picard were TNG for me. Voyager really has no-one that clicks with me. And maybe that is because they are all the odd one out in a way. I'll have to give this one a bit more thought. > >7 of 9, on the other hand, always feels perfectly free to > question human > >society and her supposed need for it. She's also the only > character to > >consistently question the supposed all-knowing wisdom of Janeway. > >> Good point, Janeway needs questioning, but there needs to be more to the show than just that. 7 of 9 really dominates the show now, and all the other charecters potential lessens. The show as a whole suffers. > > > >> > > I would have liked to have seen more voloptuous femmes > >>on > >> > >B7 > >>But I wouldn't define any of them as buxom. > >> > > > >>but > >>Jenna, is nowhere near in the same league as 7 of 9, or any other > >>female > >>character on Voyager. B7's females were simply not presented > >>well.......... > >> > >Yes, but buxom wasn't in during the 70's. As for female > characters on > >Voyager other than 7 of 9, don't get me started. Some of > them are OK, > >but Janeway drives me nuts. Even Kirk was wrong sometimes (and didn't > >Spock and McCoy let him know it). Janeway isn't. Ever. And her > >character is always being sacrificed for whatever is the politically > >correct moral for the story of the week > > > >Oh, well, enough ranting for today. > > > >Ellynne > > You brought up some very good points which maybe why the series rubs me in such a wrong way. Thanks. Reuben ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:19:29 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: Russ Massey CC: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon, Cally, and Tanith Lee (was Re: what's so funny, etc.) Message-ID: <36F7B100.7A18FD68@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Russ Massey wrote: > > Example: In 'Children of Auron' and 'Rumors' both, we > >see a *lot* of antagonism between the two; > > Not really that much. I guess it depends on perspective; this is definitely the most negative emotion I see Cally portraying up to this point. > > and not the stereo- > >typical romance-novel-style sparring, either, but real hostility, > >particularly on Cally's part. > > That's not real hostility, I saw that as strong disagreement on moral > grounds - something that crops up in arguments all the time. Real > hostility involves savage insults, and/or violence. I thought the insults were *very* savage; Avon's not usually given to name-calling, and Cally's rarely insulting at all. > > 1) Avon wants to go after Anna's killer; Cally is *vehemently* > >opposed to this course of action. She is openly critical of him; in > >fact states she's not staying on Liberator to be with him. > > But since no one had actually said otherwise, the very fact of her > denial acts to reinforce the idea that she *is* staying because of an > attraction. And the significant looks from the rest of the crew seem to > indicate that this is not lost on them either. I see this scene as one of > *the* major indicators of Cally's (semi-unwilling, semi- > unacknowledged) attraction toward Avon. There's no other reason for > the remark to have been made in that form. Yes, I did say (perhaps in my other post?) that I think we pretty much have to interpret this as Cally has feelings for Avon. I just see this whole sequence of eps as pointing up to her (and us) that those feelings are unrequited. > > 2) Cally wants to save the Auronar; Avon doesn't. This makes > >her even angrier. > > Understandable, but not necessarily enough to make her hate him. Who said anything about hate? We're talking about mutual love or the lack of it. Disillusionment or bowing to the inevitable neither one have to involve hate. I've *never* thought of hate as an inevitable result of anger. You generally get angriest at the people you care for, particularly when you feel betrayed or ill-used. > > 3) Avon spends five days being tortured to avenge his lost > >love -- over Cally's protests. More anger. > > Could it not have been the anger that someone feels when someone > they care for are in pain and they themselves can do nothing about it? I don't recall Cally's protests being that revenge was not good for Avon; more along the lines of it being pointless and immoral. Not good arguments to use with him, if she really wanted to convince him for his own sake. > > 4) Avon tells Anna quite clearly that there has never been > >anyone else for him since her. I don't think he's talking about > >sex here; he's saying that no other woman has a claim on his > >heart. Cally hears him say this. > > > Mmm. This is a good point. There again, men can change and women > believe that they can change them :) I don't see this as an insuperable > barrier to an Avon/Cally relationship, especially as Anna is no longer > in a position to object. (: Yeesh! What kind of a masochist do you want Cally to be? :) Three years she's been making cow-eyes at him and he's still willing to throw his life away over a woman who betrayed him? (Remember he took his bracelet off and didn't care if Servalan killed him.) And Sarcophagus the next ep? Brrrrrrrrr! It's *very* difficult to compete with a dead woman... who died in his arms protesting her love, after he'd killed her. No, Anna's not in a position to object; I think it's Avon who's the barrier; and *if* Cally is really foolish enough to think she can change him, IMHO that only proves that she doesn't understand him well enough to do it. (In the interest of saving bandwidth, see my post on the Avon & Cally thread for the reasons.) > The 'engineering' is, to my mind, more positive an indication of a > relationship than otherwise. I think what I'm trying to say here is that > the very existence of a will they/won't they situation means that they > almost certainly *will*, otherwise it wouldn't have been mentioned at > all. Ex-canonical; unless you mean to imply that people can't ever have an attraction to someone without acting on it? So if you're going ex-canonical, you have to allow for the fact that the creative staff probably thought this was a way to hook viewers; it doesn't mean anything if it didn't happen. > > but Tanith > >Lee's script pretty much hits you in the face with *some* sort > >of emotion in that 'meaningful look'. > > > It's not so unsubtle that there are still quite a few fans who read > nothing into it. I'm not one of them :) :) I know you are an Avon/Cally fan, Russ; and this woman is *not* foolish enough to think that she can change you! :) Grins, Mistral -- "This is all very interesting."--Tarrant ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:36:40 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: Re [B7L]: Pressure Point Message-ID: <009d01be754b$709284c0$48488cd4@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ><asterisks were getting garbled. Seems my question marks are as well. Is >there a way to fix this in Outlook Express > >Neil>> > >Yes. > >Taina I see. And presumably you're offering me a free Mars Bar if I figure it out for myself. Grateful, I'm sure:) Neil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:32:31 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "VJC" , "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Message-ID: <009c01be754b$6f96bfa0$48488cd4@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vick wrote: >These days, TV is disposable. Disagree, up to a point. TV has always been a disposable medium, but the advent of the VCR has compromised this in certain areas. The marketing opportunities that the VCR offers has, I think, tended to make certain types of drama more rewatchable (at least to those who would watch it in the first place) in order to promote video sales. B7 was made before the VCR was a commonplace household item (I only managed to tape the 4th season, and only then on its repeat - and on Betamax, too (remember that?)). So B7 was not made to be watched over and over, analysed, discussed etc. It was made to be seen once and then consigned to oblivion. Neil -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #112 **************************************