From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #115 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/115 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 115 Today's Topics: [B7L] fans and the media [B7L] [B7L] Re: [B7L] Re: Paul Darrow [B7L] RE: fans and the media Re: [B7L] Re: Paul Darrow Re: [B7L] Learning to bounce [B7L] Re: what's so funny [B7L] Re: Worst openings (and zines) [B7L] British stereotypes Re: [B7L] fans and the media Re: [B7L] Re: Paul Darrow Re: [B7L] Paul Darrow [B7L] Fans and the media. Re: [B7L] British stereotypes [B7L] Avon and Existentialism Re: [B7L] British stereotypes Re: [B7L] fans and the media Re: [B7L] fans and the media [B7L] Avon and Existentialism Re: [B7L] fans and the media [B7L] SFX Re: [B7L] SFX Re: [B7L] fans and the media Re: [B7L] fans and the media Re: [B7L] Re: what's so funny? Re: [B7L] Re: Paul Darrow Re: [B7L] Learning to bounce Re: [B7L] video formats Re: [B7L] Re: Learning to bounce Re: [B7L] Learning to bounce Re: [B7L] Re: Learning to bounce Re: [B7L] Learning to bounce [B7L] Rumplestilskin Re: [B7L] Learning to bounce ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:03:33 -0700 (MST) From: Penny Dreadful To: Subject: [B7L] fans and the media Message-Id: <199903241903.MAA26801@pilsener.ucs.ualberta.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison said: >My boyfriend was interviewed on Radio 5 on Saturday. He's a big fan of a >fairly minor football team (Chesterfield) and he runs the fan web site. I >was pleased that the radio people were sensible and friendly. They could so >easily have treated supporting a small team like being keen on an SF show- >which tends to be rather ridiculed by the media as people were saying >before. Following sports is an extroverted bonding ritual. You never see a lone sports fan half-naked in the stands with "Yuri Svenkjermonkjyerczyj" smeared across his chest. That would be odd -- but still not as odd as me sitting at home alone in the dark watching Blakes 7 half-naked with "Go Avon Go" painted across my belly (not that I would ever do such a thing -- no, if you'll review the surveillance tapes you'll see it says "Vive Le Federation!" -- and I ain't *half*-naked, neither.) would be. In The Eyes Of The General Populace. Because in doing so I am not bonding with my fellow humans. And of course there's big bucks to be got by the media through feeding the sports frenzy. Hmm, on the other hand many people *do* sit home all alone and watch sports at least as enthusiastically (they don't know how it ends) as I watch B7. And if I were, say, a Star Trek fan, I could probably gain just as many bonding points in some circles by discussing last night's Exciting Episode over the water cooler as I could by talking about last night's Big Game... So much for *that* theory [crumple crumple chuck]. I'd make a terrible debater. >Football fans are less self-conscious, and less concerned about seeming >silly. Or so it seems to me. Perhaps because although an individual team >might be a minority interest, soccer fans as a whole make up a huge group >(in Europe anyway). Lately -- whenever they were having the Brier -- I've seen several pictures prominently displayed in the newspaper of people with curling rings painted on their faces and the name of their favourite player written on a series of bellies (if they're female) and chests (if they're not) -- that's right, half-naked CURLING groupies! And really, I can't buy that curling is *that* popular even here in the Land Of Ice And Snow. Maybe the difference is simply that Sci-Fi TV fandom even at its organized ritualized sportslike extreme still has the ugly taint of literature and intellectual pretense upon it. Mind you I've been virulently prejudiced against organized sports ever since I got caught in the semiannual Stanley Cup Riot many years ago. If It had been a comicbook convention turned ugly I'd probably be singing a different song. --Penny "Rioting Drunken Trekkies Wreak Havoc" Dreadful ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:55:03 -0700 (MST) From: Penny Dreadful To: Lysator Subject: [B7L] Message-Id: <199903241955.MAA14458@pilsener.ucs.ualberta.ca> X-Forward From: Penny Dreadful Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:57:14 -0700 (MST) From: Penny Dreadful To: Subject: [B7L] Message-Id: <199903241957.MAA15081@pilsener.ucs.ualberta.ca> X-Forward From: Penny Dreadful Subject: Ugly Taint (Misdirected, Forwarded) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ann Basart To: by geocities.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA28041 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:18:32 -0800 (PST) CC: Subject: Ugly Taint (was [B7L] fans and the media) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:17:06 -0800 Reply-To: Content-Type; text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ______________________________________________ Penny Dreadful said: > Maybe the difference [between sports fans and Sci-Fi fans] is simply that Sci-Fi TV fandom even at its organized > ritualized sportslike extreme still has the ugly taint of literature and > intellectual pretense upon it. Ah, yes; _that's_ one reason I enjoy this list, not to mention the invisible companionship of the listers, like-minded or not. ("Ugly taint," indeed!) When I joined, I never expected the satisfying discussions about B7 politics, interpersonal relationships, character development, and the like that have delighted me. --Ann (mostly lurker except when there is an Avon topic going) Basart abasart@dnai.com . ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:18:34 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Paul Darrow Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Wed 24 Mar, VJC wrote: > Tell us his name, Judith. > Tell us or die. Would you prefer heart failure or strangulation? Seriously, remember what we were saying about moral responsibilities the other day? I don't know if Paul would want people to know. My assumption is that if he wanted people to know, he'd tell them himself. It wasn't Paul who told me, so I can't judge from that. I'll tell you one bit that is relatively common knowledge. 'Kill the Dead' by Tanith Lee is dedicated to 'Valentine'. This is the middle name of the actor she based the main character on. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:16:57 -0600 From: kmwilcox@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (K. Michael Wilcox) To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] RE: fans and the media Message-Id: <199903242013.VAA23205@samantha.lysator.liu.se> Alison Page wrote: [snip] > The whole event made me think about what Judith and others have been saying > about comparing football fandom and 'our' fandom. I think it is a good way > of explaining the interest to outsiders. The silly costumes, the daft songs > (err. sorry, I mean the well crafted musical arrangements :-) the passionate > feelings about something completely unimportant. The problem is that sports fans don't consider the object of their obsession to be unimportant. And a quick look at almost any newspaper suggests that the greater part of society doesn't either. [And woe unto those of us who dare say it might be. Of course, I'm now attending a 48,000-student university which many seem to consider a secondary support mechanism for the (American-style) football team, so that might colour my views.] > Una commented to me today that love of B7 doesn't have the same potential > for complete misery that supporting a football team has. Though I think it > has the potential for a level of 'we won the cup' ecstasy (if they made a B7 > film with the right cast and script it would be.. fantastic.. like England > winning the world cup). Except without the "Let's get drunk and trash downtown!" part, which anymore doesn't even require a championship. There was one here a few months back following a regular conference game. Hundreds of students filled the major thoroughfare by campus (snarling traffic and trapping a bus, on which a lot of them started climbing) while even more (many of whom were, you can be sure, intoxicated) took to their cars and drove around screaming and honking their horns (and, of course, making driving through this part of the city that much more difficult). And not only did hardly anyone get in trouble, but those who dared complain later were villified (for, among other things, lacking "school spirit"). > Football fans are less self-conscious, and less concerned about seeming > silly. Or so it seems to me. Perhaps because although an individual team > might be a minority interest, soccer fans as a whole make up a huge group > (in Europe anyway). I guess they are a bit less concerned with seeming silly, but that's really because there's far less chance of it. The fact is that sports fans aren't held to the same standards other types are. Very nearly every criticism levelled against, for example, SF fans would be equally or (in most cases) even more valid if applied to sports fans (and I could fill many paragraphs proving this point by point, but I won't). Truth is they aren't, and it's not likely they will be (or that we won't be). I think part of the reason is stated above: there're a lot of 'em. It's hard to seem odd when so many others are doing the same thing. The other part is something to do with masculinity (by which I mean manliness, not maleness). Sports (or at least the major ones) are manly endeavours, and this spills over onto the fans. K. M. Wilcox Sorry, I didn't mean to get off on a rant there. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:11:08 PST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Paul Darrow Message-ID: <19990324221109.3061.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain >I'll tell you one bit that is relatively common knowledge. 'Kill the >Dead' by Tanith Lee is dedicated to 'Valentine'. This is the middle >name of the actor she based the main character on. >Judith Hm. Now I'm wondering why this actor has a middle name more or less as long as first name and surname put together! (As if I haven't anything better to do ) Regards Joanne Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:48:11 -0800 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Learning to bounce Message-ID: <$iuYgMA7FU+2Ew0I@jajones.demon.co.uk> In message <3.0.5.32.19990324014559.007ed890@earthlink.net>, Tramila writes >>Mutter, mutter, moan, bah humbug...where did that looney in black leave >>the projectile gun when he was finished with it... > > What gun???? > The one the Guild of INTx Posters uses to indicate that a member has strayed from approved behaviour. It's a bit like the Assassins' Guild. -- Julia Jones ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:43:02 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: what's so funny Message-ID: <19990325024303.5400.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain Harriet's revalation re Jarriere: Oh. I'd assumed it did something not very nice on Servalan's chair (or frock) and she had it strangled. But as for Jarriere...you've got something here. Now I can see (if I try very, very, very hard) a brand-new PGP scenario, with the secret leader of the Rebellion appearing just in time to save our Heroes from themselves... Then trying to follow their explanation of How It All Happened (please let Vila be the one explaining it to him). Harriet goes on: No, of *course* not. Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:44:52 -0700 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Worst openings (and zines) Message-ID: <19981030.164454.10054.4.Rilliara@juno.com> On Tue, 23 Mar 99 03:39:00 GMT s.thompson8@genie.com writes: >Ellyne, this is wonderful! LOL! It's not just an opening, it's a >whole > little story in itself. I bet a zine editor would like to have it. > >Sarah T. > That's very kind of you , thank you. But I'm rather new at this. How exactly do I submit it to a zine? Ellynne ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:43:18 -0700 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] British stereotypes Message-ID: <19981030.164454.10054.2.Rilliara@juno.com> Someone mentioned how British people in American shows are always like Giles on Buffy. Mostly true, but it's even stranger than that. It was recently pointed out to me the ways TV shows make the audience sympathetic with someone they might otherwise dislike. One of the ways is to give the character a British accent. On ER, they had a guy try to rob a store only to have things get out of hand and people get killed. But you're supposed to care about him, so he had an English accent. On Early Edition, they had an art thief who'd robbed his girlfriend's museum and then run out on her. Yes, he had an excuse, but he also had an accent. Think it's just TV? A while back, a group of teenage muggers were in the news. They faked accents and pretended to be down on their luck, British emigrants. One of their victims asked if there was anything more he could do for them. Of course, that might have just been the shock of anyone (even muggers) being polite. Don't ask me what this says about people over here. Ellynne ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:35:37 -0700 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] fans and the media Message-ID: <19981030.164454.10054.1.Rilliara@juno.com> On Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:03:33 -0700 (MST) Penny Dreadful writes: >Alison said: > >>My boyfriend was interviewed on Radio 5 on Saturday. He's a big fan >of a >>fairly minor football team (Chesterfield) and he runs the fan web >site. I >>was pleased that the radio people were sensible and friendly. They >could so >>easily have treated supporting a small team like being keen on an SF >show- > >Following sports is an extroverted bonding ritual. You never see a >lone sports >fan half-naked in the stands with "Yuri Svenkjermonkjyerczyj" smeared >across his chest. That would be odd -- but still not as odd as me >sitting at >home alone in the dark watching Blakes 7 half-naked with "Go Avon Go" >painted across my belly It's funny this should come up. Just the other day, I was thinking about some kids I used to know and how one of them reminded me of Blake (charismatic leader, always able to talk everyone else into doing what he wanted). Only Blake's obsession was destroying the Federation and his obsession was sports. I suppose I was the Avon (or maybe Cassandra) of our bunch, always looking at the whole thing with unmixed dread and trying to talk the others into something sensible (like seeing a science fiction film [I eventually succeeded on that one, but it didn't really work. When our fearless leader later explained the movie to a friend, I thought he was describing a basketball game]). Then I remembered, there had been seven of us..... Ellynne ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:54:37 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Paul Darrow Message-ID: <50A54647B20@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Would you prefer heart failure or strangulation? Sorry, I was only joking. I'm afraid you saying that you knew his name was a bit of a tease. > Seriously, remember what we were saying about moral responsibilities the other > day? > > I don't know if Paul would want people to know. My assumption is that if he > wanted people to know, he'd tell them himself. > > It wasn't Paul who told me, so I can't judge from that. > > I'll tell you one bit that is relatively common knowledge. 'Kill the Dead' by > Tanith Lee is dedicated to 'Valentine'. This is the middle name of the actor > she based the main character on. I knew that anyway. Vick 'Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use.' Kerr Avon. (B7 ep 52 'Blake') ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:56:40 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Paul Darrow Message-ID: <50A5D89645D@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Thanks a lot Judith. And after I bought all those zines from you as well. > All right, maybe I asked the wrong question, so I will try again. What is > Paul Darrow's real name? > Tut, Tut. I don't know. Moral responsibilities eh? Vick 'Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use.' Kerr Avon. (B7 ep 52 'Blake') ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:28:03 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: B7 list Subject: [B7L] Fans and the media. Message-ID: <50AE397457E@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I'm sorry if anybody got me wrong about a) my stand on 'Rookie Fans', and b) disabled fans. FYI, one of my best friends from my sci-fi group is in a wheelchair, and she's just as sane (if not more so) than I am. Thanks Judith, for the information about Electrical Eggs. I doubt if I'll need to see a rep from them though, as my con venue will be a student's union, there are a number of disabled students so the union will have already been checked over by the authorities. Also as it's a students union, the venue will be free! That is to say I'll have more money to dedicate to getting a decent guest. Really, the fans that worry me are the day releasers you see in WH Smith perusing DWM, and you just know they're going to try to have a conversation with you, whether you want one or not. I might be a Doctor Who fan, but I'm not desperate, I can always pick up the phone and talk to somebody sensible, or come back to lysator and talk about B7 instead. Vick 'Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use.' Kerr Avon. (B7 ep 52 'Blake') ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:44:06 -0000 From: "Alison Page" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] British stereotypes Message-ID: <009601be76a4$29d82da0$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ellyne said - >On ER, they had a guy try to rob >a store only to have things get out of hand and people get killed. But >you're supposed to care about him, so he had an English accent. Crikey I'm suprised Iain hasn't picked up on this yet. It's Ewan MacGregor and he has a *Scottish* accent (doesn't he? Does he put a Geordie accent on or something in that episode? I'm confused now). This is quite relevant because I think US media use the different types of UK accent in different ways. It's worth looking out for, because it is interesting. Men with 'cultivated' British accents are almost always sinister, but men with working class English, or Celtic fringe accents are seen as rather charming, and a bit roguish. This is a generalisation of course. On the other hand in English films working class accents are often used to indicate that someone is a bit thick, which really gets on my nerves. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:10:23 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: B7 list Subject: [B7L] Avon and Existentialism Message-ID: <50B97D3661A@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Having ended up comparing Avon's creed to that of Spinoza, I got around to thinking about Pascal, Descartes the hierachy of intuition, and finally, Existentialism. Would anyone care to call Avon an Existentialist? True, he is a loner, and a cynic as are so many followers of this philosophy. But in the same way as a 1940's Noir 'hero', frequently amoral and jaded by the war? The argument against is that with the amorality, (though not in the case of Pascal or Descartes) comes Romantisism (eg. Byron, a typical NF) and Hedonism. (I'm afraid I couldn't even begin to compare Avon to the Marquis deSade) Are INTP's predisposed to the bare basics of Existentialism? Or are we just people hating pessimists? (only kidding!!!) Vick Vick 'Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use.' Kerr Avon. (B7 ep 52 'Blake') ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:37:17 +0000 (GMT) From: Iain Coleman To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] British stereotypes Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Alison Page wrote: > Ellyne said - > > >On ER, they had a guy try to rob > >a store only to have things get out of hand and people get killed. But > >you're supposed to care about him, so he had an English accent. > > Crikey I'm suprised Iain hasn't picked up on this yet. It's Ewan MacGregor > and he has a *Scottish* accent (doesn't he? Does he put a Geordie accent on > or something in that episode? I'm confused now). Give me a chance, I've only just got into work. I only saw a wee bit of the ER episode in question, but it was definitely the bold Mr MacGregor and I'm pretty sure he was using his natural Scots accent. I've travelled to the USA on three occasions. The first two times, everybody asked me "What part of Ireland are you from?". This was only mildly irritating. The third time was a couple of years after the release of "Braveheart". Guess what movie invariably cropped up within the first 20 seconds of any conversation? I suspect the Scottish character in ER had the same experience, and this is what sent him over the edge. > > This is quite relevant because I think US media use the different types of > UK accent in different ways. It's worth looking out for, because it is > interesting. Men with 'cultivated' British accents are almost always > sinister, but men with working class English, or Celtic fringe accents are > seen as rather charming, and a bit roguish. This is a generalisation of > course. > Of course, but in the case of the Celtic accents it's entirely true. > On the other hand in English films working class accents are often used to > indicate that someone is a bit thick, which really gets on my nerves. It's a reflection of way the English class system is so strongly linked to accent and regional origin. I've been struck recently by the number of people I've met who used to have strong English northern or working-class accents until going to study at Oxford or Cambridge. I'm starting to wonder if these institutions run mandatory night-classes for these students. Iain ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:44:34 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] fans and the media Message-ID: <50C29EA7CE1@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Penny wrote: > And if I were, say, a Star Trek fan, I could probably gain just as >many > bonding points in some circles by discussing last night's Exciting Episode > over the water cooler as I could by talking about last night's Big Game... So > much for *that* theory [crumple crumple chuck]. I'd make a terrible debater. > If you were a Star trek fan, you and your buddies could dress up and go and run around in the woods with a quasar set. Vick 'Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use.' Kerr Avon. (B7 ep 52 'Blake') ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:02:09 +0200 From: "422ami" <422ami@nt52.parliament.bg> To: , Subject: Re: [B7L] fans and the media Message-Id: <199903251100.MAA00186@samantha.lysator.liu.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Penny wrote: > You never see a lone sports > fan half-naked in the stands with "Yuri Svenkjermonkjyerczyj" smeared > across his chest. Do you raise any objections to so called guy Yuri Svenkjermonkjyerczyj (whoever he was...)?!? ; ) Hellen The Bulgarian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:26:30 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: B7 list Subject: [B7L] Avon and Existentialism Message-ID: <50CDCB84B16@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT 'We are fools to depend on the society of our fellow men. Wretched as we are, powerless as we are, they will not aid us, we shall die alone. We should therefore act as if we were alone, in in that case should we build fine houses etc. We should seek the truth without hesitation; and if we refuse it, we show that we value the esteem of man more than the search for truth.' - Blaise Pascal Vick 'Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use.' Kerr Avon. (B7 ep 52 'Blake') ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:17:23 +0000 (GMT) From: Una McCormack To: Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] fans and the media Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Alison said: >Una commented to me today that love of B7 doesn't have the same potential >for complete misery that supporting a football team has. Though I think >it has the potential for a level of 'we won the cup' ecstasy (if they >made a B7 film with the right cast and script it would be.. fantastic.. >like England winning the world cup). I think I was thinking of the relentless losing that many football teams do over many, many years. I would not like to be a Manchester City fan, for example (once great team now reduced to minor league status). Perhaps I'm understating just how devastated I, at least, was when 'Blake' was first shown, and how much and how long many people longed for a new series and then repeats... A film would lead to ecstasy - certainly! >Football fans are less self-conscious, and less concerned about seeming >silly. Or so it seems to me. Perhaps because although an individual team >might be a minority interest, soccer fans as a whole make up a huge group >(in Europe anyway). Also, if you're a football fan, you're likely not just to support your local team. You'll be following England's fortunes (such as they are), and probably even other English teams when they play against other European teams - so the networks are even larger. Virtually *everyone* in England knows when the team have a big match, and manager changes make at least third headline on the news. This is a big, big section of society. Even if you're a multimedia fan, there won't be as many people following all those shows as there are supporting English football in all its varieties! Football is a *legitimate* hobby, I think. And not only legitimized, but *expected*. I have a reasonable idea of what's going on in the Premiership because it's like knowing what films have been released, or what books have just been published. It's a common topic of conversation - an easy way in to talking to people. I don't think SF fandom is allowed this legitimacy. I'm not sure why. As Alison and Judith have said: the costumes, the songs, the fervour, the *collecting* mentality are all there (you should see my eldest brother's collection of programmes - and he thinks *I'm* weird!). There are shared 'symptoms', certainly! Just how gendered is it? Televised and promoted football is only played by men. You don't get coverage of women's football (in the same way that you get women's tennis, for example). I remember a situation once where I was at a group interview for some graduate scheme, and we were all taken out to dinner. I was sitting at one end of the table with a group of 4 or 5 men, and they started talking about football. I'm pretty conversant (3 brothers and a partner all addicted) and joined in. Instant freeze. It was like I had just walked into the gents. Scary response. Football is male culture (yes, I know it's possible to be a female football fan). I don't think I'm arguing that fandom is solely female culture (because Dr Who fandom, for example, isn't) but it isn't legitimized male culture. There's something slightly more complex going on here that I haven't quite worked out. (There's a wonderful line in the film of 'Fever Pitch' (a book about being a football fan) in which the girlfriend's best friend rants at her for knowing the Arsenal squad because it's male colonization of women's native culture! But then I also detest the kinds of 'football snobbery' that you get from little fools like Ian Hislop (current editor of 'Private Eye', self-declared satirist and t*rd) who dismisses football fandom as coarse and stupid. An ignorant response.) I tend to find it easier to think of fandom being at least to some degree similar to typically dismissed female hobbies like soap-watching and romance-reading (I know that this isn't the case for everyone involved - indeed, the whole point of the q-study (when I finish writing it up!) is to demonstrate the multiple ways in which we 'read' B7.) But there are some shared aspects - the creativity involved in writing/drawing/zine producing/filking, the shared community... tho' one could also argue that these are aspects of football fandom too. Yet many TVSF fandoms have a high female component (B7, Star Trek - I think). This has to be significant. These are all societal explanations, of course. We haven't even touched on the individual psychological reasons of why it is we do what we do!! Just some thoughts. Una ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:39:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Una McCormack To: Lysator Subject: [B7L] SFX Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII So, have enough people now seen this that we can describe it to those who aren't going to get the chance to? Una ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:34:11 +0000 (GMT) From: Iain Coleman To: Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] SFX Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Una McCormack wrote: > So, have enough people now seen this that we can describe it to those who > aren't going to get the chance to? Yup. Iain ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:50:34 -0000 From: "Alison Page" To: "Lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] fans and the media Message-ID: <001201be76c8$51f80ca0$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Una said - >I think I was thinking of the relentless losing that many football teams >do over many, many years. Yes, that's what I meant but I didn't express it very well. It's different from feeling sad about 'Blake', somehow. When you feel sad about 'Blake' you feel a kind of exhilaration that it has taken you with it, in to something unreal but powerful. When England got beat by Argentina (gnash gnash) I felt completely miserable, with no redeeming features, apart from the feeling of solidarity with people who felt the same. >I was sitting at one end of the table with a group of 4 or 5 >men, and they started talking about football. I'm pretty conversant (3 >brothers and a partner all addicted) and joined in. Instant freeze. It was >like I had just walked into the gents. I bet they were public school boys, and just generally scared of girlies. I've got to disagree that football is an exclusive interest. England were played Romania in the world cup on a weekday afternoon. I had to go and pick the kids up from school in the last 30 minutes of the game. A big group of mums and some of the teenagers from the high-school up the road were gathered outside the shops by the school. One of the teenagers had a ghetto-blaster tuned in to the sports channel. I stood there with these people, all different races, both sexes, all ages, and we just stood in silence listening to the commentary. People were just staring at the radio. I think it was Michael Owen that scored (damn I wish I could remember better) and everyone smiled at each other. One of the teenagers punched the air. It was the most fantastic moment. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:06:29 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] fans and the media Message-ID: <50F876F29C7@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I think I was thinking of the relentless losing that many football teams > do over many, many years. I would not like to be a Manchester City fan, > for example (once great team now reduced to minor league status). Is Paul Darrow still a 'city fan? Vick 'Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use.' Kerr Avon. (B7 ep 52 'Blake') ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:36:09 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: what's so funny? Message-ID: <612608fc.36fa49d9@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/24/99 2:52:59 AM Mountain Standard Time, smanton@hotmail.com writes: > Oh, and of course we all *hate* torturing the dear man, don't we? > Mental torture being the best sort, as he stays pretty (well, his > expression won't be, but...) That's undoubtedly why it's so much fun! Nina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:36:04 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Paul Darrow Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/24/99 1:07:04 PM Mountain Standard Time, Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk writes: > I'll tell you one bit that is relatively common knowledge. 'Kill the Dead' > by Tanith Lee is dedicated to 'Valentine'. This is the middle name of the > actor she based the main character on. Egad! You mean Avon is *really* Michael Valentine Smith??? Nina (who spent way too much of her impressionable youth reading Heinlein) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:35:59 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Learning to bounce Message-ID: <18f6cd83.36fa49cf@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/24/99 6:28:20 PM Mountain Standard Time, Julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk writes: Tramila wrote: > >>Mutter, mutter, moan, bah humbug...where did that looney in black leave > >>the projectile gun when he was finished with it... > > > > What gun???? > > Julia replied: > The one the Guild of INTx Posters uses to indicate that a member has > strayed from approved behaviour. But dear Tramilla can't *possibly* be an INTx can she? She's altogether too *bouncey* for that! Nina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:36:06 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] video formats Message-ID: <2459e2f1.36fa49d6@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/24/99 6:32:46 AM Mountain Standard Time, umm10@hermes.cam.ac.uk writes: > Oh yes. I only wish that my off-air copies of 3rd season repeats were on > Betamax - then they might have a chance of surviving, if I played them > back! It's really too bad that Beta didn't survive -- the picture quality is *so* much better. I still use it, but I'm having to cannibalize old tapes if I want to tape new stuff. I taped all of B7 on Beta when they showed it here on PBS back in '85 - '86 and for the most part they still look better than the commercial VHS tapes I've seen. I don't know if the PAL versions are better than NTSC, though. > There are some lovely bits on the tapes, including a Ceefax picture of > Paul Darrow - I guess I could get this on the web if I get my hands on a > digital camera. That would be great! Nina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:35:57 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Learning to bounce Message-ID: <1fe35e61.36fa49cd@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/24/99 10:56:07 AM Mountain Standard Time, 101637.2064@compuserve.com writes: > Iain wrote: > >I'd like an Eeyore toy that, when pressed, does nothing. Harriet replied: > That would be nice... but shouldn't its tail fall off? > At the very least, it should sigh mournfully. Eeyore has always been my favourite. Nina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 07:45:33 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Learning to bounce Message-ID: <36FA5A1C.A6B87383@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nina wrote: > But dear Tramilla can't *possibly* be an INTx can she? She's altogether too > *bouncey* for that! Tramila is ESFJ -- Vila without the indecision; or possibly Blake without the broodiness. I, however, am INTP, and I seem to be learning to bounce adequately; I don't know if INTJs can bounce at all, at least in public. Oh Kaaaaathryyyyyyyynnnnnn!!! Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 07:48:36 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Learning to bounce Message-ID: <36FA5AD3.6B022065@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nina wrote: > > Iain wrote: > > >I'd like an Eeyore toy that, when pressed, does nothing. > Harriet replied: > > That would be nice... but shouldn't its tail fall off? > > > At the very least, it should sigh mournfully. Eeyore has always been > my favourite. I'd like it to say "Thanks for noticing." Eeyore's my favourite, too. Grins, Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:38:59 -0800 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Learning to bounce Message-ID: In message <18f6cd83.36fa49cf@aol.com>, Pherber@aol.com writes >In a message dated 3/24/99 6:28:20 PM Mountain Standard Time, >Julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk writes: > >Tramila wrote: >> >>Mutter, mutter, moan, bah humbug...where did that looney in black leave >> >>the projectile gun when he was finished with it... >> > >> > What gun???? >> > >Julia replied: >> The one the Guild of INTx Posters uses to indicate that a member has >> strayed from approved behaviour. > >But dear Tramilla can't *possibly* be an INTx can she? She's altogether too >*bouncey* for that! > Indeed. She is the one trying to lure innocent INTx types to the dark side. The one interfering with attempts to save them, attempts to teach then the error of their ways. The one trying to prevent recourse to the final method used to ensure that an INTx does not *bounce*. There is one certain method of ensuring that bouncing doesn't happen. It even works for other M-B types. Just ask Blake. -- Julia Jones ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:04:07 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: B7 Lysator Subject: [B7L] Rumplestilskin Message-ID: <36FA6C87.31322069@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Judith won't talk. We can either put her in Travis' dental chair or... we can guess! What is Paul Darrow's real name? Is it: Wilbur Tweedlebum? Postulating Pat P ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:29:32 -0800 From: Tramila To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Learning to bounce Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990325122932.00832310@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Tramila wrote: >> >>Mutter, mutter, moan, bah humbug...where did that looney in black leave >> >>the projectile gun when he was finished with it... >> > >> > What gun???? >> > >Julia replied: >> The one the Guild of INTx Posters uses to indicate that a member has >> strayed from approved behaviour. > >But dear Tramilla can't *possibly* be an INTx can she? She's altogether too >*bouncey* for that! Nope: ESFJ Tramila -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #115 **************************************