From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #150 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/150 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 150 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers) Valuable Knowledge (was Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long)) Re: Re [B7L] Who killed Anna Grant? Re: Re [B7L] Who killed Anna Grant? [B7L] drugs on Earth (was Star one) Re: [B7L] "Man of Iron" for US B7 Fans Re: Re [B7L] Who killed Anna Grant? Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long) Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long)) Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long)) [B7L] [BL7] Worse Openings . . . Re: [B7L] [BL7] Worse Openings . . . Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers) Re: Valuable Knowledge (was Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long)) Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long) [B7L] French History Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long) [B7L] Re: French History Re: [B7L] [BL7] Worse Openings . . . Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers) Fwd: [B7L] Re: Musing (was French History) Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long)) Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long) Re: Valuable Knowledge (was Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long)) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 23:37:38 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers) Message-ID: <3727FE31.F6D1D589@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Judith Proctor wrote: Re historical cycles: > What you actually mean is that it's essentially random within a general > set of bounds. Political parties may look diametrically opposed, but to an > outsider they can look almost identical. I remember my reaction on visiting > America once when I discovered that by American standards I was probably far > more left wing than either of your main parties, wheras at home, I'm a moderate. I'd have guessed that, as America's very right to England and most of Europe. Actually, the two major parties in America are a poor example of what I was referring to; I agree with you that they're almost identical, although to me, they're both almost frighteningly liberal. (When it comes to government, I am a minimalist.) Apropos to the discussion, however, is that traditionally right-wing America has been moving left since WWII (the Republicans are now where the Democrats were long ago), while left-wing Russia has been moving (slowly) to the right, decentralizing power and allowing its citizens somewhat more freedom. > I suspect Blake had an natural interest in the past. It's an interesting sign > of the time when Blake's 7 was written that that was almost the only > environmental reference I can recall. If it had been written now, there woudl > probably be far more on that score. > > I have a gut feeling that most people had a narrow based education except for > some of he elite alphas. I'll grant you this. It doesn't preclude Avon's being in this group, though; that would depend on personal canon. > It's pretty clear from the first episode that everyone is drugged en masse, What you've said is well thought-out, and might be true in some personal canons, but it doesn't make sense for *me*; I never saw any evidence of it again until 'Traitor', even though we're exposed to several different planetary populations; and in 'Traitor', the widespread use of drugs seems to come as a complete surprise to Avon and the others, and the Federation personnel certainly talk about it as if it's a new thing. If they were controlling everybody with drugs, there'd be no need to wipe them out a la 'Time Squad' or use threat a la 'Countdown'. > > Anyway, it would be a little difficult to conduct a galaxy-wide referendum. > > I think the point that I was trying to make is that it's one thing to > > choose rebellion for yourself and those following you, but it is a whole other > > order of magnitude to knowingly cause the deaths of innocents who may not > > support your cause, and who haven't been given a choice. > > But surely the whole point is that they hadn't been given a choice? > > I think Blake saw imself as trying to create a situation where they did have a > choice. Surely this is what he intended; I admire Blake's motives, and freely agree that from his perspective he was doing the right thing. What I was attempting to demonstrate is simply that someone else might not consider this the best option. Blake could only offer this new choice to the people who *survived* the destruction of Star One. For those who did not survive, he has removed every choice they might ever make -- permanently. In that sense, he would be abrogating those people's right to choice and freedom as surely as the Federation is. And this is the first time, AFAIK, that they've contemplated causing this kind of collateral damage (I really don't think they were aware of the extent of Central Control's effect in 'Pressure Point'). Up to Star One, they've only killed people who specifically made themselves into enemies, or were employees of the Federation, and thus legitimate targets of a war (if you consider a rebellion a war). I can certainly see Cally, even though I see her as being very gung-ho, wanting to stop and think about it; and I can see Avon thinking that this whole rebellion thing has gotten well out of hand, and he wants out before it gets any worse. > I don't think Avon was being a git at all. I don't think he cares greatly about > humanity though. Not to say that he doesn't care at all, but I never saw it as > a major motivation of his. I agree that it rarely motivates him. I think that's why he simply wants out, instead of either pitching in with Blake or trying to persuade him to some less destructive way to rebel. It doesn't mean that he's not viewing this as an extension of Blake's annoying (to Avon) habit of forcibly bending others to his will in the name of freedom. And I do think that some loyalty to his species was a factor in his deciding to fight the Andromedans (plus loyalty to Blake, plus the fact that a Milky Way overrun by Andromedans might have no safe place for an Avon.) > Intelligent people frequently have different ideas over what is > right/appropriate. Defining 'right' is virtually impossible. Only if you're looking inside yourself for the answers. If you have some creed, or personal code, or once you've defined for yourself some basic principles, all of your other choices need to be measured against that. I see both Blake and Avon as having some sort of personal code (Avon's is very narrow but very strict) and IMHO that's one of the reasons that they can respect each other so much, even as they disagree so very much. As always, just IMHO, Mistral -- "There's rules, and honour, and chivalry, and all that sort of thing."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 02:21:40 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Valuable Knowledge (was Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long)) Message-ID: <372824A3.4267F61F@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally Manton wrote: > Mistral writes: > valuable'; and the cyclic nature of history is one of that subject's > basics. He'd have to be a fool to have forgotten it; and he and Blake > have probably discussed that very subject.> > > Again, I don't see it. Avon is certainly the most intelligent member > of the crew, I agree would be well read (about anything that > *interests* him) and believes, as you say 'all *knowledge* is > valuable'. Knowledge being facts (remember, we're talking about a > computer expert, a pragmatic, mechanically minded man). Historical > theorising, no matter how well grounded, wouldn't interest him. Knowledge means information, not some narrowly defined set of 'facts' that are measurable. You're right that he's pragmatic. But he's a great deal more omnivorous, knowledge-wise, than would support your argument. His field is computers and electronics, yes, but on various occasions he shows either knowledge about or interest in at least the following fields: medicine, psychology, philosophy, astrophysics, early spaceflight, games, gambling, probability theory, evolutionary biology, and probably many other areas that I don't remember off the top of my head. Most of these have only a tenuous connection, if *any* to his profession. *All* knowledge is valuable because the more you know, the more connections you can make in your mind between disparate things; the better chance you have of solving any problem you come across. As he has a nodding acquaintance with so many different fields, he's either had a broad-based education, or he's interested in pretty much everything, IMHO certainly the latter and possibly both. > Also, given we're talking about a totalitarian dictatorship here, any > study of history would be fairly warped, so neither Blake nor Avon > could trust even the facts as they knew it. On my understanding of > both characters, Blake would try to *get* at the truth (no easy matter > with the sliding, subjective, interpretive complications of historical > study), and Avon would quickly realise that (a) it was warped and > untrustworthy and Fascinating and I agree totally until you get to: > (b) therefore of no practical value, and therefore > ignore it. More likely, IMHO, he would be annoyed at being lied to and set himself to the puzzle of sorting out the verifiable facts from the lies, and drawing his own conclusions. This would be a lot of fun for him, actually. He doesn't like mysteries, remember? ('Destiny') Once he knew they'd lied to him, he'd be determined to find the truth. There might not be many verifiable facts pre-Federation, given the timeframe; but any facts Blake could get at, Avon could get at. Hmmm... now that I think about it, Blake even knew about early American history (Killer), which means there was probably a lot of historical information available if you cared to look. Apart from which, even if Avon had no interest at all in history, politics, and sociology before boarding Liberator, in the course of arguing with Blake about what he was up to, he'd have surely uncovered all Blake's reasons and done enough thinking or research to come up with counter-reasons of his own, long before Star One. Just IMHO, Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 23:56:53 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: Re [B7L] Who killed Anna Grant? Message-ID: <372802B5.F1EF67F8@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neil Faulkner wrote: > AFAIC, Cally can only receive from other telepaths. I've had to retrieve this from my outbox to avoid parroting Judith. The writing is inconsistent about this. I always reconcile it in my mind by saying that she can only *occasionally* pick up *very* strong feelings (*not* thoughts) from people for whom she feels a strong emotional attachment. It happens to Terrans; why shouldn't it happen occasionally to Aurons as well? But that would give no justification for her picking up anything from Anna. Just IMHO, Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 07:51:47 PDT From: "Stephen Date" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: Re [B7L] Who killed Anna Grant? Message-ID: <19990429145200.60076.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain Mistral wrote: >Neil Faulkner wrote: > > >> AFAIC, Cally can only receive from other telepaths. > >I've had to retrieve this from my outbox to avoid >parroting Judith. > >The writing is inconsistent about this. I always reconcile >it in my mind by saying that she can only *occasionally* >pick up *very* strong feelings (*not* thoughts) from people >for whom she feels a strong emotional attachment. It >happens to Terrans; why shouldn't it happen occasionally >to Aurons as well? But that would give no justification >for her picking up anything from Anna. > I seem to recall someone posting the guide to the characters for the series a while back which stated that Cally's abilities increased over the series. So whilst her abilities are limited in Time Squad, they pick up after Shadow (telekinesis) to allow her to detect homicidal corpses (Killer) Avon's duplicity/guilt (Hostage) and Vila's pain (Aftermath). I think that leaves the matter open. Generally as Mistral points out it is people she cares about she recieves from. The exception is the corpse in Killer. If this is due to the brain implant it recieved from the aliens, then she shouldn't be able to read Anna. If it is due to her sensing an imminent catastrophe, then she could. My own view is that Avon and Anna were a tragedy waiting to happen and Cally was an innocent bystander. Sometimes the obvious answer is also the correct one. But only sometimes. Stephen. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:25:35 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: [B7L] drugs on Earth (was Star one) Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Wed 28 Apr, Neil Faulkner wrote: > Mistral vs Judith: > +AD4APg- It wouldn't be, of course+ADs- but I never get the impression that +ACo-all+A > Co-, or > even > +AD4APg- most Federation citizens are permanently drugged to the point of > +AD4APg- insensibility. > > +AD4-It's pretty clear from the first episode that everyone is drugged en masse, > +AD4-except the higher grades like people working for the Justice Department. > > Sorry, Judith, but I'm with Mistral on this one. The first episode only > tells us that the people on Earth are dosed with suppressants, and that the > levels have been raised as a response to growing levels of dissidence. So > all those zombies stomping around in the opening shots can't necessarily be > taken as a typical selection of Federation citizenry. I'm more inclined to > think that large scale tranquilisation of the populace was both local and > temporary. But if the level had been raised, then drugging was de facto the norm. And if it had been raised in response to growing levels of dissidence then QED there was widespread dissidence, which perfectly answers Mistral's point as to whether people wanted a revolution or not. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 08:46:41 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] "Man of Iron" for US B7 Fans Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Thu 29 Apr, Bizarro7@aol.com wrote: > I've had enough inquiries now so that I'll just make a blanket statement. If > anyone in the USA wants me to make a copy of the Paul Darrow B7 script MAN OF > IRON, I'll send it to you postage paid for $5.00. Leah, how would you feel if someone in the UK offered to xerox copies of Bizzaro? Or what if they made copies of your cartoons without permission? (I know how strongly you feel on that issue) Even if they didn't make a profit out of it, wouldn't you be up in arms? Paul's script is surely his copyright and he gave *Horizon* permission to publish it. Horizon take US$ cheques (providing you read the instructions on how to use them), so it isn't as if the script is not avaialable to Americans. Horizon and I are rarely on the best of terms, but if they were to complain in this case, I'd have to say they were fully in the right. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 03:12:53 -0700 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: Re [B7L] Who killed Anna Grant? Message-ID: <19980314.040655.8526.0.Rilliara@juno.com> On Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:32:37 +0100 "Neil Faulkner" writes: >Ellynne wrote: >>It may also be that, as Cally's a telepath who can occassionally pick >up >>on flashes of emotion or thought from nontelepath's... > >I'm not entirely convinced that she can. She did state explicitly in >Time >Squad that she was unable to read minds. The two instances that are >generally cited to contradict this are - > >1) Horizon >2) Hostage, >AFAIC, Cally can only receive from other telepaths. > But there's also Killer, where she was able to sense something on the ship which she at first thought felt like a _human_ mind. Then she realized it wasn't, but it wasn't human. There certainly wasn't any evidence the bionic corpse was telepathic. In Terminal, when she tells Tarrant Avon really meant it about killing anyone who followed him, the way she tells them and her general shock seem to imply she knew it telepathically. Finally, Dayna says in Sarcophagus that Cally is psi developed and can occassionally do more than the average Auron. In both Killer and Terminal, Cally wouldn't have needed more than a brief view of extremely intense emotion, so she wouldn't necessarily call it reading minds. I don't insist on this view, but it's the explanation that works best for me so far. Ellynne ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 04:06:53 -0700 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long) Message-ID: <19980314.040655.8526.1.Rilliara@juno.com> >And Alison responded: > >I think 'progress' is a myth if you take it to mean 'things must >improve >whatever happens'. The passage of time doesn't mean that things must >improve. But 'progress' is a valid concept if you take it to mean >'things >can be improved from how they are now'.> > >Interestingly, as far as I am aware, it's only Western thought which >has >this idea of progress related to a civilization. Sort of. Many cultures believed in the forces of change and that cultures had their ups and downs. In older western thought, this was expressed by the wheel of fortune. To put it briefly, things had their ups and downs, and then the cycle starts over. Western culture is unique (as far as I know) in the linear view of the future improving on the past. The main difference between the idea of progress, as far as social improvement goes, and the wheel of fortune is that the wheel tends to see problems in society as breaking from what is right and which need to be corrected, often by drawing on an older pattern. Progress tends to emphasize change, often by discarding older patterns. It sees problems in society as part of the original pattern which must be replaced with a new system. Actually, the Federation probably emphasized the progress view. They were the relatively knew system which had displaced the older ones and which was leading people into the future. Blake may have also been a believer in progress, but it was a view that saw the Federation as the old, corrupt dinosaur. Avon rejected the moral theory of progress through simple cynicism. Ellynne ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 04:24:59 -0700 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long)) Message-ID: <19980314.042502.8526.2.Rilliara@juno.com> Just to add my two cents on Avon's knowledge of history, in Orbit, Egrorian quoted a woman executed in the French Revolution ("Liberty, oh, liberty, what crimes are committed in thy name") and Avon didn't have a clue what he was talking about. Ellynne ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:34:20 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long)) Message-ID: <3728981C.1098D68E@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ellynne wrote: > Just to add my two cents on Avon's knowledge of history, in Orbit, > Egrorian quoted a woman executed in the French Revolution ("Liberty, oh, > liberty, what crimes are committed in thy name") and Avon didn't have a > clue what he was talking about. OTOH, I had a fairly intensive course in the FrenchRevolution my first year at college, and I didn't have a clue where it came from, either. You can't draw conclusions about a person's general knowledge in a field from one specific fact. They may simply not have been exposed to that particular fact. Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 11:04:36 -0700 From: "Otewalt, Andrew" To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" Subject: [B7L] [BL7] Worse Openings . . . Message-ID: <6E4D1267E6EDD111AB7100A0C91EDD22B151C4@SJXPR01> Content-Type: text/plain i am having a hard time trying to fit the theme song to the american t.v. show The Brady Bunch, into a opening for BL7. it's the story, of a man named Blake . . any help from those of you with a better sense of music and / or humor ? - andrew ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 21:37:19 GMT From: dixonm@access.mountain.net (Meredith Dixon) To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] [BL7] Worse Openings . . . Message-ID: <3729c771.59555182@access.mountain.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 29 Apr 1999 11:04:36 -0700, Andrew Otewalt wrote: >i am having a hard time trying to fit the theme song to the american t.v. >show The Brady Bunch, into a opening for BL7. > >it's the story, of a man named Blake . . "Blake" just doesn't fit the rhythm. And, being primarily a Blake fan, not an Avon fan, I refuse to take the easy out and substitute "Avon". It doesn't help that the rhythm of the three verses isn't identical. The first verse fits extra syllables into the fourth line ("All of them had hair of gold") and scants the fifth line, ("Like their mother"); the second verse breaks the fourth and fifth lines differently, ("They were four men / They belonged together.") Moreover, the second verse has a significant pause, indicated here by dashes, in the third line, "Who was bringing up three boys on -- his own." And the third verse....oh, never mind, those of you who know the song can sing it to yourselves and see the differences. :) Since the "Brady Bunch" theme song deals with the very beginning of the "Brady Bunch" show, so should the "Blake's 7" version. That means Cally has to be left out, which is regrettable, but there's not really room for her anyway. (For those of you who've never watched "The Brady Bunch", if any such there be, the very idea of the "Brady Bunch" themesong, which is bouncy, bubbly and cute, being paired to Blake's 7 is hilarious, even without words.) How about.... Here's the story Of a freedom fighter Who was caught and jailed and mindwiped by the Feds. He remembered who he was, And was deported, But, "I'll be back," he said. Here's the story of a daring smuggler, And a burglar who could pick locks -- at will. And a comp tech, In the jug for bank fraud; And Gan who couldn't kill. And then one day they rebelled aboard the *London*, Though it seemed they had no chance to win; Now this group Assails the Federation Through the mystical empowerment of Zen. The power of Zen; The might of Zen; Through the mystical empowerment of ZEN! Meredith Dixon dixonm@access.mountain.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 20:56:44 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers) Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Thu 29 Apr, mistral@ptinet.net wrote: > > > It's pretty clear from the first episode that everyone is drugged en masse, > > > > What you've said is well thought-out, and might be true in some personal > canons, but it doesn't make sense for *me*; I never saw any evidence of it > again until 'Traitor', even though we're exposed to several different > planetary populations; and in 'Traitor', the widespread use of drugs seems to > come as a complete surprise to Avon and the others, and the Federation > personnel certainly talk about it as if it's a new thing. If they were > controlling everybody with drugs, there'd be no need to wipe them out a la > 'Time Squad' or use threat a la 'Countdown'. On planets like Albion it would have been impossible to drug everyone. The population of the entire planet was around 5 million. That suggests an agrarian economy with the populace widely sacattered. Certainly no really major cities. That means that large scale drugging is impractical as you don't have centralised food and water. Hence, I suspect, why they used the solium device. In fact, Liberator's crew never visit any large urban centres (BBC budget restrictions ?). If they had, doubtless we'd have seen evidence of drug use. (The man Travis took for his experiment in 'Project Avalon' seemed pretty docile though) Saurian Major was a self-governing colony that was annexed by the Federation. The colonists declared independance (again showing that there was widespread dis-satisfaction with the Federation) and were crushed. We know nothing about its population or social structure. The Federation may or may not have found it an easy place to use drugs. The fact that they could only subdue the rebellion there by executing half the populace suggests that the resistance was extremely widespread and had massive popular support. Essentially we have a situation where plants fall into two groups. Those where drugs were used and there was no resistance. Those where drugs (for whatever reason) were not used and where there seemed to be active opposition to Federation rule. The new thing about Pylene 50 was that it only needed to be used once. You didn't have to feed the drug continually into the the system. Once someone had been affected, they stayed affected. Remember also that the use of drugs was unknown to most people. Look at Blake's reaction in The Way Back when he laughs as the 'myth' that the population are drugged. > > > > Anyway, it would be a little difficult to conduct a galaxy-wide > > > referendum. I think the point that I was trying to make is that it's > > > one thing to choose rebellion for yourself and those following you, but it > > > is a whole other order of magnitude to knowingly cause the deaths of > > > innocents who may not support your cause, and who haven't been given a > > > choice. > > > > But surely the whole point is that they hadn't been given a choice? What I'm saying above is that when they did have a choice, it often seemed to be that they chose to risk their lives and fight. The people of Albian were willing to risk the solium device. The people of Saurian Major fought too. They chose to risk their lives and those of their friends and families. That has to say something about the conditions they were living under. If they were willing to take the risks that they did take, then it is at least possible that they would have been willing (if it had been possible to ask them) to see Star One destroyed. It would be less of a risk than those they had already faced. > > Intelligent people frequently have different ideas over what is > > right/appropriate. Defining 'right' is virtually impossible. > > Only if you're looking inside yourself for the answers. If you have some > creed, or personal code, or once you've defined for yourself some basic > principles, all of your other choices need to be measured against that. I see > both Blake and Avon as having some sort of personal code (Avon's is very > narrow but very strict) and IMHO that's one of the reasons that they can > respect each other so much, even as they disagree so very much. Aren't we just saying the same thing in different words? I have my own basic moral code, but it may not be the same as your moral code. Thus our definitions of what is 'right' will differ. eg. We might have different feelings about abortion, but we would both be speaking on the basis of a personal creed. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 20:31:45 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: Valuable Knowledge (was Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long)) Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Thu 29 Apr, mistral@ptinet.net wrote: > There might not be many verifiable facts pre-Federation, given the timeframe; > but any facts Blake could get at, Avon could get at. Hmmm... now that I think > about it, Blake even knew about early American history (Killer), which means > there was probably a lot of historical information available if you cared to > look. Though Blake got the name wrong with regard to the plague blankets story, showing that data may not always have come down accurately (far more fun than saying the script-writer goofed) . See the Sevencyclopaedia on http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 to see who actually did the trick with the blankets. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:44:23 +0100 From: "Jonathan" To: "Una McCormack" , Subject: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long) Message-ID: <00db01be9289$858ae600$f137883e@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Interestingly, as far as I am aware, it's only Western thought which has >this idea of progress related to a civilization. Many other cultures have >the notion of *personal* progress, but it's only in the West that it's >transposed beyond the individual. I think it's inherited from Greek and >Roman ideas of Ages of Man (Golden, Silver, Iron). > >I always thought this was a very interesting thing. No doubt someone can >prove me wrong. > >Una > Hmm... as I remember the Greeks saw the Gold Age as being the first and greatest age and each of the others as successive steps in decline. Isn't this the *opposite* of progress ? I'd suspect that the idea of progress (== something liked "a destiny of continuing improvement in everything that matters") might have started with the north european puritan christians, who believed both in the second coming of Jesus with attendant benefits (paradise for theirselves, hell for their ideological enemies), and in the importance and possibility of individuals and movements improving their own cirumstances ("a career open to talents" was one of the slogans of Cromwell's faction.) These social and religious concepts had an interestingly early marriage with science and the idea of technology improving the world - the Royal Society was almost dominated by former Cromwellians when it was established. Progress's next big break was in the American colonies. People there could see that their lives were better than those their parents had, and with vast natural resources freely available to them (minus only the cost of some socially approved genocide) and fewer social barriers perhaps than ever before, the idea of progress took deep root in the American psyche. Again technology was linked to social factors early on - think of the role of Benjamin Franklin. Jonathan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:58:48 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: [B7L] French History Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Thu 29 Apr, mistral@ptinet.net wrote: > > > Ellynne wrote: > > > Just to add my two cents on Avon's knowledge of history, in Orbit, > > Egrorian quoted a woman executed in the French Revolution ("Liberty, oh, > > liberty, what crimes are committed in thy name") and Avon didn't have a > > clue what he was talking about. > > OTOH, I had a fairly intensive course in the FrenchRevolution my first year > at college, and I didn't have > a clue where it came from, either. You can't draw > conclusions about a person's general knowledge in a > field from one specific fact. They may simply not > have been exposed to that particular fact. But of course if you go to http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 and look up Mme Roland in the Sevencyclopaedia, then you will something that Avon didn't. (Neil really did his research when compiling that volume - he even figured out what Sarkoff had in his record collection! - look up Kathleen Ferrier and Tommy Steele) Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 23:49:59 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long) Message-ID: <036801be9293$1d6c7ed0$0c01a8c0@puffin.hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison said: >Una and I correctly identify and zoom in on our point of contention :-) ;) >> But 'progress' is a valid concept if you take it to mean 'things >>can be improved from how they are now'.> >> >>Interestingly, as far as I am aware, it's only Western thought which has >>this idea of progress related to a civilization. Many other cultures have >>the notion of *personal* progress, but it's only in the West that it's >>transposed beyond the individual. > >I actually don't like Confucianism all that much, but I do think it had a >very clear idea that society could get out of kilter and would have to be >rectified by force if necessary. They had a concept that an established >ruler could lose his political mandate (called 'the will of heaven') and >good men were then obligated to work to overthrow the regime. > >Sikhism is also a very social religion, with an eithic that people should >struggle to reform society, not just themselves. I typed and retyped an answer to this, with lots of convoluted sentences. Eventually, I had to settle on: 'Reform' isn't the same as 'progress'. Una ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:08:45 PDT From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: French History Message-ID: <19990429230847.25858.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain >> > Just to add my two cents on Avon's knowledge of history, in >> > Orbit, Egrorian quoted a woman executed in the French >> > Revolution ("Liberty, oh, liberty, what crimes are committed in thy >> > name") and Avon didn't have a clue what he was talking about. >> OTOH, I had a fairly intensive course in the FrenchRevolution my >>first year at college, and I didn't have >> a clue where it came from, either. Maybe Avon just had a rotten memory for quotes! It's not as if Egrorian had much else to do down on that planet, other than inventing tachyon funnels and playing chess with Pinder. On an unrelated note, the Muses will be displeased. I've given up on that filk. I console myself with the thought that Judith has probably given up on many in the course of amassing that impressive collection on her filk page. Regards Joanne Terminal boredom would be from watching the last episode of the second last season once too often wouldn't it? --my brother ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 01:05:33 EDT From: Pherber@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] [BL7] Worse Openings . . . Message-ID: <781e9dbe.245a941d@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/29/99 3:40:27 PM Mountain Daylight Time, dixonm@access.mountain.net writes: > (For those of you who've never watched "The Brady Bunch", if > any such there be, the very idea of the "Brady Bunch" > themesong, which is bouncy, bubbly and cute, being paired to > Blake's 7 is hilarious, even without words.) > > How about.... Meredith, that's ghastly! I stand in awe.... Hey Penny! I nominate this as a candidate for addition to the Inquisitional torture kit! Ack! Nina ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 01:05:33 EDT From: Pherber@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers) Message-ID: <2f592cd7.245a941d@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/29/99 3:42:06 PM Mountain Daylight Time, Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk writes: > What I'm saying above is that when they did have a choice, it often seemed to > be that they chose to risk their lives and fight. The people of Albian were > willing to risk the solium device. The people of Saurian Major fought too. > They chose to risk their lives and those of their friends and families. > That has to say something about the conditions they were living under. If I may play Fair Witness, I think you're making an unjustified generalization here, Judith. You're implying that the populace *at large* of both Albian and Saurian Major were actively in favor of resistance when the canonical evidence only supports the fact that there were active resistance *groups*. I see no evidence that the stated attitudes of the resistance members were supported by the general population. (Taking off Fair Witness robe) Nina "What color is that house?" "It's white on this side, boss" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 01:07:48 PDT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Fwd: [B7L] Re: Musing (was French History) Message-ID: <19990430080749.32440.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Joanne wrote: Displeased? Displeased??? My one great chance to be a footnote to - er - something, and you give up on me? Just 'cause you have to do all the work... On the other hand, a Muse with a sense of rhyme like McGonagall's probably wasn't going to inspire you with anything immortal. I'll forgive you. This once. Sally (ex-muse for hire) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 02:13:18 PDT From: "Stephen Date" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long)) Message-ID: <19990430091319.37456.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Mistral wrote: >Ellynne wrote: > >>Just to add my two cents on Avon's knowledge of history, in Orbit, >>Egrorian quoted a woman executed in the French Revolution ("Liberty, oh, >>liberty, what crimes are committed in thy name") and Avon didn't have a >>clue what he was talking about. > >OTOH, I had a fairly intensive course in the French Revolution my first >year >at college, and I didn't have >a clue where it came from, either. You can't draw >conclusions about a person's general knowledge in a >field from one specific fact. They may simply not >have been exposed to that particular fact. > The programme guide states that B7 took place 800 - 1000 years in the future. Whilst all of us have heard of the French Revolution and many of us have heard of Mme Roland (200 years ago,)I imagine if we were asked to place a famous quote by Athelstan Half-King or Sweyn Forkbeard (9th/10th Century) we would probably struggle, unless we were specialists in Anglo-Saxon history. So Avon can be excused his ignorance on this occasion. Mistral on the other hand was obviously not paying attention ! Stephen. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 10:51:33 +0100 From: "Alison Page" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long) Message-ID: <001901be92ef$39464c60$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I typed and retyped an answer to this, with lots of convoluted sentences. >Eventually, I had to settle on: 'Reform' isn't the same as 'progress'. > >Una > I don't think your response needs to be any longer. It makes your point, and it's a fair one. So many of these disagreements come down to semantics, and different uses of contentious words. The important questions for me, in relation to Blake in particular, are - can things get better, or must they inevitably return to some conservative default state? - is it ever justified to use violence to bring about change? - if people are prevented from deciding, can you intervene and make that kind of decision for them? I think these have been very live questions in most human societies, not just the modern west. My personal answers are yes they can, yes it is, yes you should. But I'm pretty sure that a good proportion of listees would disagree. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 10:38:16 +1000 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: Valuable Knowledge (was Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long)) Message-ID: <19990430103816.A5617@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Thu, Apr 29, 1999 at 02:21:40AM -0700, mistral@ptinet.net wrote: > > More likely, IMHO, he would be annoyed at being lied > to and set himself to the puzzle of sorting out the verifiable > facts from the lies, and drawing his own conclusions. This > would be a lot of fun for him, actually. He doesn't like > mysteries, remember? ('Destiny') Once he knew they'd > lied to him, he'd be determined to find the truth. There > might not be many verifiable facts pre-Federation, given > the timeframe; but any facts Blake could get at, Avon > could get at. Hmmm... now that I think about it, Blake > even knew about early American history (Killer), which > means there was probably a lot of historical information > available if you cared to look. Well, then there's the folk-song theory, which a bunch of us (Judith P. in particular) came up with during a rambling discussion at MediaWest 17. To wit: Blake was a folk-song buff, and picked up his odd snippets of history from folk songs which had been written about various historical events. (Imagine: a wailing lament written about wicked Lord Jeffrey Ashley, Redskins, and smallpox-infested blankets...) Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "...And of all places of condemnation, and penal stations in New South Wales, of Moreton Bay I have found no equal; Excessive tyranny each day prevails..." -- Australian folk song -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat \_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #150 **************************************