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blakes7-d Digest				Volume 99 : Issue 154

Today's Topics:
	 Re: [B7L] Drugs
	 Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
	 Re: [B7L] The Keeper and Star One
	 RE: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long)
	 [B7L] Re:drugs on Earth(was Star One)
	 Fwd: RE: [B7L] Curious things in Star One - before anyone points out...
	 Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One
	 [B7L] Re:Curious things in Star One (long)
	 [B7L] Re:drugs on Earth(was Star One)
	 Re: [B7L] Re:drugs on Earth(was Star One)
	 Re: [B7L] Re:drugs on Earth(was Star One)
	 [B7L] 
	 [B7L] 1999 FanQ Nominations!
	 Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One
	 Re: [B7L] 1999 FanQ Nominations!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 10:52:14 PDT
From: "Hellen Paskaleva" <hellen_pas@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Drugs
Message-ID: <19990502175308.20065.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed;

Kathryn wrote (on May, 1st):

<<If suppressants suppress initiative, then at the minimum, high government 
officials (such as Servalan) would be exempt.>>

It seems to me that the Space Command's headquarters, based on the remote 
artificial satellite is *their* solution to the problem with air-spreaded 
suppressants. As it is necessary for servicemen to be in full sane, they 
could not afford themselves to emit even small amounts of any tranquilizer.

By the way, slightly out of topic, but - it was typical for authorities in 
the communist countries to treat the 'inconvenient' people with drugs for 
suppressing their resistance/will. Federation does not invent anything new, 
*they* were simply good learners.

Hellen, the Bulgarian


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 21:36:20 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
Message-ID: <001201be94db$cada37c0$eb1eac3e@default>
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Judith wrote:
>Nah! <smile>  They looked drugged because they were drugged.  And that
thing in
>Harvest of Kairos really was a giant spider!

Yes, Judith.  And the pursuit ships really did wobble on their piano wires.
And there really was a sand martin (US: bank swallow) colony on Beta 5.  And
Vila really did take a change of clothes down to Terminal.  Oh yeah, and
Piri really really was a really really convincing actress.

Let me know if you need more rope:)

Neil

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 15:49:00 -0500
From: "Lorna B." <msdelta@magnolia.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] The Keeper and Star One
Message-Id: <199905022042.PAA07642@pemberton.magnolia.net>

Tanja said:

>>I thought his reaction was the result of his earlier digging at Blake that
he,
Avon, was perhaps more qualified to lead missions than Blake was. And the
first
time he's in charge, someone of his team disappears... very embarassing. <<

My thoughts exactly.  Avon had to act quickly to save face.  He must have
felt an absolute fool to have lost one of his team members right off the
bat.  That must have smarted for weeks.

Lorna B.
"Cookies and porn?  You're the best mom ever!"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 15:40:28 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: RE: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long)
Message-ID: <19990502224034.25592.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed;

I do think that this will have to be my final post on this - you must have 
all heard enough of me...Neil, do you want to discuss something *really* 
serious and vital like Servalan's wardrobe again?

Mistral (and BTW, though I still disagree, thanks for making me think about 
my position):
<Violence is not the only way however. Gandhi's method does work against an 
immoral enemy; it just takes longer, and more die. The advantage is that 
those who die generally made their own choice.>

That's not my reading of just about every oppressive regime this century. 
Yes, those who made a choice die - along with the usual huge numbers of 
'innocent bystanders' - hostages slaughtered en masse for one isolated act 
of resistance, villages made an 'example' of, victims of scorched earth, 
ethnic cleansing, blitzkreig, people who were just 'in the way'.

<Forcing someone *else* to do what you think is right, or to die for your 
idea of what is right, is IMHO something else entirely, however.>

And leaving them to suffer - when you are *the only one* who can make a 
difference - because you think they should make their own decision (when 
they can't) is IM-equally-HO no better. Isn't that *also* forcing them to 
die for your idea of what is right? (Complicated, isn't it?)

<What Blake is contemplating doing at Star One, however, is the equivalent 
of turning the artillery on his *own* civilians. AFAIK, that has never been 
considered acceptable by any civilized society.>

Ummm....no, I don't see that analogy (I can hear you falling over in shock 
from here, Mistral<g>). The analogy I'd use is that of Allied forces bombing 
industrial and military centres in occupied Europe, knowing that citizens 
*of* those occupied countries were going to get killed in the bombing. (I do 
not include terror bombing in this analogy.) The damage done to the enemy 
was considered to be severe enough to justify the deaths. You might, with 
good cause, disagree with that decision - I might, with equal cause, agree 
with it.

Star One can most *certainly* be termed a legitimate target (in Blake's 
eyes) under this definition.

**Blake is doing the futuristic version of turning freedom into a religion 
and forcing the galaxy to convert at blaster-muzzle.**

I can see your argument, but they are at blaster-muzzle anyway. The 
Federation's got them there. *There is no middle ground*. It's everyone or 
no one. Either the Federation rules everyone (and kills an unspecified but 
large number in the process) with the help of Star One, or Blake frees 
everyone (and kills an unspecified but large number in the process) by 
destroying it. There's *no* way most people *can* decide for themselves. No 
way at all. They do not have the power. Either the Federation or the rebels 
are going to make that decision for them. Me, I'd rather it was Blake. At 
least he'll give me *some* chance, as apart from (under the Federation) 
none.

If he doesn't do this, what of those who want freedom and can't get it any 
other way? What of the people whom the Federation is killing while Star One 
operates? Don't they have some rights too? Or does Blake have to cede that 
freedom is not the right of the helpless, because they can't fight for it 
themselves?

As for the argument that he could have used Star One to peacefully dismantle 
the Federation - there's no evidence that that would have worked, that 
trying to undo the complex web of control wouldn't have caused every bit as 
much pain and chaos as simply destroying it. (The British tried to control 
the partition of India. Didn't help a lot of innocent, dead people.) As for 
'disbanding the military' - that would have been a *much* more complicated 
and (probably) bloodier process than that  - do you really think they'd have 
gone quietly? Blake would probably have *had* to start exerting more and 
more control to try and keep things from getting just as bad as they would 
have if he'd just blown the thing to hell. Just the sort of thing that would 
have brought the risk - that he was aware of - of his own corruption.

He's been broken, remember. He *knows* he's fallible. He didn't trust 
himself with that power. *If* he was right - if he proved corruptible - then 
with Star One in his hands the oppression may have become even worse. As 
noted the the thread on The Keeper, Avon brings up the idea once, in a 
desultory way, almost as if testing. He doesn't care much for it either.

There is *no* easy answer, true. I just believe that, given what he was 
fighting and what was going on while he was fighting, he was justified in 
what he thought and what he did.

<(Avon) doesn't, however, force anyone to join in the cause that doesn't 
want to. And we all know he's not exactly Mr. Upright. It must be because he 
respects their right to decide for themselves, as he wants to decide for 
himself.>

No, it's because he hasn't the Star One option. He hasn't got a Liberator, 
he hasn't got a Star One to attack. Each of them must use the weapons they 
have, and the methods open to them.

And you could also look at it from the other side (more in line with My 
Hero's character asI see it) in that he brings into the fight people he can 
use. The only people whose 'right to decide' is of any interest to him are 
those whose skills he can use. Those he can't - whether they want freedom or 
not, whether they are dying or being enslaved or not - will just have to 
wait (or die). Remember on Helotrix - "Remember Tarrant, we are only 
interested in whether or not the Federation have some new weapon. Whatever 
else is happening down there, even if they are executing the entire 
population, YOU are not to get involved."

This is not a criticism of Avon. But it's totally untrue that Avon is giving 
the general public (of which, after all, you and I would be members) any 
more choice than Blake or the Federation. He *can't*. He doesn't respect 
*their* right to decide - again, because he can't. Nor could Blake. As I 
said, there is no middle ground. Some people's right to decide *has* to be 
denied.

Yes, I agree that Avon is an individualist. But that is only a part of his 
nature. He is also unabashedly cold and selfish, and rather disinterested in 
people per se - he finds it bad enough that he cares about the few people he 
lives, works and fights with. There is *no* evidence whatsoever in 4 whole 
seasons that he gives much of a damn about anyone outside that small, tight 
circle, certainly none that 'people he doesn't even know' have received more 
than a few thoughts in passing (usually because someone else, like Blake, 
has forced said thoughts on him). To say that - at this *one* moment - he 
suddenly finds a respect for the rights of these people, or even for their 
lives - is to me out of tune with who he is.

As I've said, my opinion (for what it  is worth, no more than anyone else's) 
is that Avon has no qualms or reservations whatsoever about the destruction 
of Star One. He's genuinely all for it. His speech is an intensely personal 
and blisteringly honest one, focusing on what *he* wants, and he sincerely 
doesn't care about what will happen for him to get what he wants. Oh, and he 
is out to hurt Blake (there's still raw feelings over what happened in The 
Keeper.) Once he's had his stab (as in Trial) it's back to business as usual 
between them.

I also believe that he agrees with Blake that destroying Star One is the 
best course open to them - the best, maybe the only real chance they have at 
that moment of defeating the Federation, and that he has believed that since 
Pressure Point. Sadly, I also believe that he still thinks it can't be done, 
but he's prepared to try.


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 08:47:02 +1000
From: Sarah Berry <berrys@connexus.net.au>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re:drugs on Earth(was Star One)
Message-ID: <372CD5E6.ECE86F57@connexus.net.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Judith, Mistral, Neil (and others?) have been writing about drugged
ppopulations.  I've always assumed that it was wide-spread, but if I stop and
consider the logistics of doing it and the consequences of having a drugged
population I can't conceive of it working on a planetry scale, let alone through
out the Federation.  Do we even have any idea how big the Federation was/is?  It
ought to have been only a (realtively) little part of our galaxy, so where there
other big powers out there acting against the Federation?  And if there were
that's an even better reason for not drugging your population.
Sarah Berry.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 16:01:11 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Fwd: RE: [B7L] Curious things in Star One - before anyone points out...
Message-ID: <19990502230111.67285.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed;

That when I said...


<There is *no* evidence whatsoever in 4 whole seasons that he gives much of 
a damn about anyone outside that small, tight circle...>

I forgot the Love of His Life. I didn't. Anna I include in that circle  
(well, he worked with her - in the fraud - but my usual (cough) crystal 
clarity of thought went missing in that sentence.) OTOH, his brother and any 
family members I think are consigned to the very dead past.




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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 16:23:47 PDT
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One
Message-ID: <19990502232347.80942.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed;

>As I recall, Egrorian assumed that Avon didn't know, and didn't give >Avon 
>the chance to show whether he did or not.  ('Do you know the >source?  No, 
>of course you don't.')

What a show-off. Must go with Egorian's 'circus escapee' hair-do.

Sorry, <grin> can't manage Servalan's wardrobe, so hairstyles will have to 
do.

Regards
Joanne


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 09:43:30 +1000
From: Sarah Berry <berrys@connexus.net.au>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re:Curious things in Star One (long)
Message-ID: <372CE322.D6186BD5@connexus.net.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Jonathan said:
>Hmm... as I remember the Greeks saw the Gold Age as being the first and
>greatest age and each of the others as successive steps in decline. Isn't
>this the *opposite* of progress ?

Una said:
>My dictionary tells me that 'progress' means 'movement towards a goal':
>neither positive nor pejorative. I agree that the word tends to carry
>positive connotations.

Here's another contradiction.  I think our world is caught up in 'technological
determinism' (something like the future being set by what we invent now) and
that often has positive connatations too.  Yet SF, and B7 is a good example,
tends to be a technological dystopia (inventions are used in a bad or evil way).
Sarah Berry.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 18:38:12 -0600
From: Penny Dreadful <egomoo@mail.geocities.com>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re:drugs on Earth(was Star One)
Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990502183812.007c94f0@mail.geocities.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 08:47 AM 5/3/99 +1000, Sarah Berry wrote:
>Judith, Mistral, Neil (and others?) have been writing about drugged
>ppopulations.  I've always assumed that it was wide-spread, but if I stop and
>consider the logistics of doing it and the consequences of having a drugged
>population I can't conceive of it working on a planetry scale, let alone
through
>out the Federation.  Do we even have any idea how big the Federation
was/is?  It
>ought to have been only a (realtively) little part of our galaxy, so where
there
>other big powers out there acting against the Federation?  And if there were
>that's an even better reason for not drugging your population.
>Sarah Berry.

I remember reading a Monica Hughes novel(la?) (I'm sure Arkaroo will be
able to give us the name) many many years ago wherein I believe the
population-drugging procedure worked thusly: 
(a) drugs in a popular brand of breakfast cereal enhanced suggestibility 
(b) subliminal suggestions on popular television shows encouraged the
populace to (among other things) keep eating said brand of breakfast cereal.

Really, people don't need that much encouragement to drug *themselves* into
complacency (or at least into a state in which they're no threat to the
status quo).

And outside threats are no reason at all not to drug your populace in this
manner: enhanced suggestibility just makes a Propagandist's job that much
easier.

The people you see staggering around the dome in The Way Back seem dozy and
clueless because the PA is *telling* them, encouraging them, to be dozy and
clueless. Maybe when they get safely to their places of employ they have a
PA telling them to be perky and productive; maybe if the dome is ever
attacked they have a special tape they can stick in telling all citizens to
switch into Berzerker Kill-Krazy Mode. Yeah! Cool!

--Penny "Mental Massage Muzak" Dreadful

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 02:58:01 GMT
From: dixonm@access.mountain.net (Meredith Dixon)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re:drugs on Earth(was Star One)
Message-ID: <372e0f87.88502212@access.mountain.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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On Sun, 02 May 1999 18:38:12 -0600, you wrote:

>I remember reading a Monica Hughes novel(la?) (I'm sure Arkaroo will be
>able to give us the name) many many years ago wherein I believe the
>population-drugging procedure worked thusly: 
>(a) drugs in a popular brand of breakfast cereal enhanced suggestibility 
>(b) subliminal suggestions on popular television shows encouraged the
>populace to (among other things) keep eating said brand of breakfast cereal.

I've never heard of a novel with that basis, but there's a short
story with that premise by Raymond F. Jones, "A Bowl of Biskies
Makes A Growing Boy."  It's a thoroughly nasty horror story --
bright high schoolers are encouraged to notice the suppression,
and once they do (thus revealing themselves to the authorities)
they get hauled in and subjected to some sort of radiation that
sharply reduces their intelligence.  I read that story 25 years
or so ago, and I've never managed to forget it.

Meredith Dixon
dixonm@access.mountain.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 11:39:00 +0100
From: "kevin mahoney" <kevinpatrickmahoney@msn.com>
To: "Sarah Berry" <berrys@connexus.net.au>,
        "Lysator List" <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re:drugs on Earth(was Star One)
Message-ID: <005301be9551$2990d600$554995c1@MSNKevinPatrickMahoney>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="Windows-1252"
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I think it would have been fairly easy to drug people on a planetary scale.
And as for outside forces threatening the Federation - well, who are they?
The System probably looked upon the Federation as extremely unimportant, and
I don't think the Andromedans invaded for the benefit of mankind.   Even if
there was a well meaning outside force, it doesn't mean to say that they
would be particularly effective (i.e. NATO).
Kevin Mahoney

Check out the new Blakes 7 community on Dejanews:
http://www.dejanews.com/~blakes7
Buy books online with genre: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Nook/1082

----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah Berry <berrys@connexus.net.au>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Sent: 02 May 1999 23:47
Subject: [B7L] Re:drugs on Earth(was Star One)


>Judith, Mistral, Neil (and others?) have been writing about drugged
>ppopulations.  I've always assumed that it was wide-spread, but if I stop
and
>consider the logistics of doing it and the consequences of having a drugged
>population I can't conceive of it working on a planetry scale, let alone
through
>out the Federation.  Do we even have any idea how big the Federation
was/is?  It
>ought to have been only a (realtively) little part of our galaxy, so where
there
>other big powers out there acting against the Federation?  And if there
were
>that's an even better reason for not drugging your population.
>Sarah Berry.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 11:42:20 +0100
From: "kevin mahoney" <kevinpatrickmahoney@msn.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] 
Message-ID: <006701be9551$a05ea780$554995c1@MSNKevinPatrickMahoney>
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Check out the new Blakes 7 community at Dejanews: =
http://www.dejanews.com/~blakes7

Kevin Mahoney
Buy books online with Genre: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Nook/1082

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<META content=3D'"MSHTML 5.00.0910.1309"' name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Check out the new Blakes 7 community at Dejanews: <A =

href=3D"http://www.dejanews.com/~blakes7">http://www.dejanews.com/~blakes=
7</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Kevin Mahoney</DIV>
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 08:18:07 EDT
From: Bizarro7@aol.com
To: space-city@world.std.com, Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] 1999 FanQ Nominations!
Message-ID: <8c38f7e5.245eedff@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I'm proud to announce we recieved the following notification of FanQ 
nominations yesterday from the MediaWest*Con powers-that-be:

Blake's 7 - story - gen - Breaking the Chain - Author: Michelle R Moyer
- published in: Southern Seven #12

Blake's 7 - story - gen - Tears of The Sun - Author: Susannah Lucci -
published in: Southern Seven #11

Blake's 7 - zine - gen - Southern Seven #11 - editor: Ann Wortham.

Could you please let the following artists know they are also on the
ballot since your publication was mentioned as their source

Blake's 7 - artist - gen - Laura Virgil
Blake's 7 - artist - gen - Leah Rosenthal

Many thanks to all or any of you who voted us in! Woo-hoo! 

Leah 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 08:33:20 -0700
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One
Message-ID: <19980314.083323.10062.0.Rilliara@juno.com>

On Sun, 02 May 1999 16:23:47 PDT "Joanne MacQueen"
<j_macqueen@hotmail.com> writes:
>>As I recall, Egrorian assumed that Avon didn't know, and didn't give 
>>Avon 
>>the chance to show whether he did or not.  ('Do you know the >source? 
> No, 
>>of course you don't.')
>
OK, it wasn't the best example.  It just happened to be the only example
I've been able to think of where someone made a historical reference in
front of Avon (although Avon was fairly informed about Helotrix and its
history of fighting the Federation.  But, since they had only recently
stopped fighting because of pylene-50, that could count as more of a
current event).  I had to look up the quote too, but I had a fairly good
idea what the point was.  Avon didn't.

Of course, Avon was trying to be a little more low profile than usual,
doing his best to have Egrorian pay attention to Vila instead of him.

I can see Avon learning history if it came his way, but I don't see him
making any major effort for it unless if filled a specific need (checking
entries on "successful computer bank fraud" stats or "history and
survival rates on Cygnus Alpha").  But I tend to see history as more of a
touchy-feely discipline, where you learn about people, their lives and
motivations, etc.  The best historians seem to have been in love with
their chosen culture / time period.  If I could picture a more aloof
historian (I'm sure there are some), I could probably picture Avon with
his bootleg copy of "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire."  As it is, I
can't see it yet.

Ellynne

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Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 20:28:19 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
cc: Space City <Space-city@world.std.com>
Subject: Re: [B7L] 1999 FanQ Nominations!
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0503192819-bbaRr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

I know the feeling <smile>.  It was really nice to get some nominations this
year as my best zine last year fell into the the trap of being the only one in
its category and thus couldn't be nominated.
> 
> Dear Judith --
> 
> You have the following on the 1999 FanQ ballot --
> 
> Blake's 7 - poem/filk - gen - Cruel Is The Snow - Authors: Judith
> Proctor and Anne Stukklen
> 
> Blake's 7 - poem/filk - gen - The Gunfighter - Author: Judith Proctor
> 
> Blake's 7 - stand alone zine - Morgan - Author: Judith Proctor
> 

It was also lovely to get a nomination for 'Morgan' as it's my personal
favourite of all the stories I've ever written.

The Stiffie ballots are looking very good too.  A wide range of B7 nominations. 
(For those who don't know, the Stiffies are only for slash zines)

I've posted my votes for both sets of awards and it was a hard choice in some
categories.

Judith

PS.  It's Anne Stulken and not as they spelt it.

-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7

Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news,
Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc.

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End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #154
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