From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #193 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/193 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 193 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Potential crossovers (was Flat Robin #45 - Part 1 of 6) Re: [B7L] Flat Robin #45 - Part 1 of 6 Re: [B7L] Flat Robin #45 - Part 3 of 6 [B7L] classifying stories / classifying B7 [B7L] Re: Flat Robin #45 - Part 1 of 6 Re: [B7L] classifying stories / classifying B7 Re: [B7L] classifying stories / classifying B7 Re: [B7L] classifying stories / classifying B7 Re: [B7L] Potential crossovers (was Flat Robin #45 - Part 1 of 6) Re: [B7L] Flat Robin #45 - Part 1 of 6 [B7L] Narnia (was Flat Robin #45 - Part 1 of 6) Re: [B7L] Potential crossovers (was Flat Robin #45 - Part 1 of 6) Re: [B7L] Flat Robin #45 - Part 1 of 6 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 01:33:48 PDT From: Sally Manton To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Potential crossovers (was Flat Robin #45 - Part 1 of 6) Message-ID: <19990617083348.91545.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Una wrote: I'm trying very hard *not* to... and from the 5 minutes I caught of the midday movie yesterday... Blakes 7/St Trinians ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 1999 10:51:32 +0200 From: Calle Dybedahl To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Flat Robin #45 - Part 1 of 6 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII "Una McCormack" writes: > Potential weird crossovers? How about a Narnia one... Bleurgh. Can you > imagine..? Yes. Rewrite of "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe" with Servalan instead of the witch and Blake instead of Aslan. -- Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se Try again. Try harder. -*- Fail again. Fail better. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 10:25:58 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Flat Robin #45 - Part 3 of 6 Message-ID: <003401beb8a5$d3be47d0$0c01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Arkaroo wrote: >"I could perform acts of atrocity on a curry right now" This could be my epitaph... I've particularly enjoyed this section because I love the denizens of the Unseen University. Una http://www.q-research.connectfree.co.uk/personal/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 10:46:03 +0100 From: "Alison Page" To: "lysator" Subject: [B7L] classifying stories / classifying B7 Message-ID: <000901beb8a6$4e8b8180$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit About 2 years ago, it must have been, on the other list Susan Beth mentioned Orson Scott Card's classification of stories into Milieu / Idea / Character and Event -driven structures (MICE). It was one of the most interesting perspectives I had come across, and I've thought about it many times since. I got a book on writing out of the library recently, and last night as I was leafing through it, I came across OSC's original text. So what does it mean to appreciate B7 as a milieu story, or as a character story? Can I just pop in a few quotes from OSC and see what you think. I'll be as brief as possible. I think there are some interesting ideas arising. Milieu story - 'the structure of a pure milieu story is simple: get a character to the setting the story is about and then devise reasons for her to move through the world of the story... the less you characterise the main character(s) the better' Oops says Alison, B7 is clearly not a milieu story in this sense. But wait 'More often stories emphasise milieu, but develop other story factors too.' Phew, so that's a possible perspective on B7. 'The characters will be chosen because they typify certain classes within that society.' Sounding more interesting all the time. 'The characters attitudes and expectations are part of the cultural ambience'. Yes. This is quite a good description of what I like about B7: a cultural ambience of characters. Idea story - 'It has a simple structure. A problem or question is posed at the beginning of the story, and at the end the answer is revealed'. This does not characterise the series as a whole (Star One is not really a puzzle, it's a McGuffin), but individual episodes (I'm thinking of Mission to Destiny and Voices from the Past for instance) take this mystery format. On the whole I would say the 'ideas' side of B7 is the least well developed structure. Many of the ideas are quite poorly conceived or expressed, particularly the scientific ones. Character story - 'A character's role in life becomes unbearable... he decid es to change, or break away from that role. The story is based on this struggle'. Up to a point. I'm not sure that OSC is right to limit character stories to this type of transformation. For a start he leaves out a very important type of character story - the one which concerns the interaction of strong characters. So we can describe the transformation of Blake or Avon as heroic individualist 'character' in OSC's sense, and the interaction of the entire crew as another kind of character plot. Event story - 'The world is somehow out of order, and the story is about the effort to restore the old order, or establish a new order. The story structure is simple. It begins when the main characters become involved in the effort to heal the world's disease, and ends when they either accomplish their goal or fail utterly'. This is certainly a good of describing the story arc of B7. So, how do you see B7? Which form of story is it you appreciate most in B7, and how does this relate to Una's classification of fans? FWIW I think the 'events' side is sometimes downplayed by fans, but I rather like the arc of the first two seasons, leading up to Star One. The lack of an 'event' structure is perhaps a problem in series 3 and 4, but here I think the 'character' side comes in - in particular with Avon's deterioration. And the milieu continues to develop itself throughout. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 06:29:25 -0400 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] Re: Flat Robin #45 - Part 1 of 6 Message-ID: <199906170629_MC2-79BA-878A@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Arkaroo wrote: >tell me if you like this. Or don't like it. Like Alison, I've only read one Pratchett (no, make that two, Only You Can Save Mankind is his, isn't it?) and that wasn't wizards. But I've been able to follow and enjoy most of this. (If you want some criticism to season the praise, the parts that haven't worked for me have been the Blake thread. I know there are plot reasons why he's permanently out of character, but, er, well, it doesn't do anything for me.) In the latest instalments, I particularly liked: >Cally and Avon exchanged worried glances; with slightly squeaky but >nonetheless feline grace they began edging towards Blake from behind. I remember a TV interview with Paul Darrow in about 1980 in which he revealed that they had to reshoot some scenes because the creaking of their leathers drowned out the dialogue. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 12:22:33 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] classifying stories / classifying B7 Message-ID: <004e01beb8b3$b926ff30$0c01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison wrote: > Milieu story - 'the structure of a pure milieu story is simple: get a > character to the setting the story is about and then devise reasons for her > to move through the world of the story... the less you characterise the main > character(s) the better' Oops says Alison, B7 is clearly not a milieu story > in this sense. Although, to some extent, this is how the show was originally conceived: 'The Dirty Dozen in Outer Space' with the hero, the tart with the heart (for the dads), the devil's advocate, the joker, the gentle giant - and bad guys in leather who do bad things. It's the performances and script-editing that make it 3D. > So, how do you see B7? Which form of story is it you appreciate most in B7, > and how does this relate to Una's classification of fans? From those descriptions, I appear to like the event story in B7, I suppose. But what makes our heroes fail is, in part, the flaws in people's characters. I see the complexity of the B7 milieu as being *formed* by the main players: Blake, Avon, Servalan, Anna Grant. These are people whose individual goals and choices and actions can and do have an effect on the wider circumstances of the B7 universe: they're the ones who can make themselves President, attempt coups, attack Space Command, have knowledge of superior technologies, etc. What's the effect on history of the strengths and flaws of these people? That's what interests me. At least that's what interests me when I'm treating B7 as a 'reality'. Otherwise I'm snickering at sets and costumes or nerdishly checking production details. Una ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 05:43:50 PDT From: Rob Clother To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] classifying stories / classifying B7 Message-ID: <19990617124350.81472.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Una: >I see the complexity of the B7 milieu as being *formed* by the >main players: Blake, Avon, Servalan, Anna Grant... What's the effect >on history of the strengths and flaws of these people? That's what > >interests me. Totally! It should come as no surprise to find I'm behind you 100% on this. Blah blah blah Servalan High Council, blah blah blah Bercol Rontane Joban, blah blah blah Sula People's Council. And all that. Still, the presence of the lesser characters is important as well. They may not be extraordinary people, but they still hold the reins of history in their unwitting hands: if only because of where they are, and who they're associated with. Take Vila's foul-up in "Space Fall", for example. If he hadn't dropped his weapon, Blake's first hijack may have succeeded. The London would have changed its course, and there would have been no Liberator -- or the Liberator may even have fallen into the hands of the Federation. The Siege of Syracuse is another example of history being driven by the acts (or blunders) ordinary people. Effectively, the final blow was delivered not by a dedicated warrior, but by an entirely unremarkable man named Moeriscus. Moeriscus opened the gates of the city to save his own skin, and Syracuse was taken by the Romans. That was in the Third Century BC, and its consequences are still with us today. I mean, if Syracuse had survived, it would very probably have linked up with Carthage -- and the combined forces of Greece and Carthage could well have defeated the Roman Republic. No Roman Republic, no Roman Empire. No Roman Empire... Well, the mind boggles. And it was all because some Greek farty was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Makes you think, dunnit? -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 17:19:52 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] classifying stories / classifying B7 Message-ID: <012c01beb8dd$42888900$0c01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rob said: > Totally! It should come as no surprise to find I'm behind you 100% on this. > Blah blah blah Servalan High Council, blah blah blah Bercol Rontane Joban, > blah blah blah Sula People's Council. And all that. You sound like the bad guys in 'Five Go Mad in Dorset'. 'Blah blah deadly weapon. Blah blah foreign spy.' > Still, the presence of the lesser characters is important as well. They may > not be extraordinary people, but they still hold the reins of history in > their unwitting hands: if only because of where they are, and who they're > associated with. > > Take Vila's foul-up in "Space Fall", for example. If he hadn't dropped his > weapon, Blake's first hijack may have succeeded. The London would have > changed its course, and there would have been no Liberator -- or the > Liberator may even have fallen into the hands of the Federation. Have you read 'Virtual History', Rob? It's a set of essays about turning points in history and how things could have turned out differently edited by Niall Ferguson. Good stuff. Una ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 15:48:31 -0700 (PDT) From: J MacQueen To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Potential crossovers (was Flat Robin #45 - Part 1 of 6) Message-ID: <19990617224831.20602.rocketmail@web904.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Sally Manton wrote: > Blakes 7/St Trinians I can think of one B7 character who would be perfectly happy with that, especially if red fur uniforms were involved. Regards Joanne _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 20:59:46 -0700 (PDT) From: J MacQueen To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Flat Robin #45 - Part 1 of 6 Message-ID: <19990618035946.20414.rocketmail@web902.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Calle Dybedahl wrote: > Yes. Rewrite of "The Lion, the Witch and the > Wardrobe" with Servalan > instead of the witch and Blake instead of Aslan. The irresistable urge to cast Blake as Peter and Avon as Edmund kicks in. But out of Cally and Jenna, which one is Susan and which one Lucy? Oh, silly question. I forgot about the healing cordial and Cally's descent into nursemaid Regards Joanne _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 21:13:48 -0700 (PDT) From: J MacQueen To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Narnia (was Flat Robin #45 - Part 1 of 6) Message-ID: <19990618041348.18007.rocketmail@web906.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Something else I forgot - the Witch feeding Edmund Turkish Delight. Thanks, Calle, I shall never look upon that part of the book again in the same way as before Regards Joanne _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 00:34:17 EDT From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Potential crossovers (was Flat Robin #45 - Part 1 of 6) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How about a B7/Dr. Who crossover? The TARDIS materializes inside the Liberator. Dr. Who (played by Tom Baker) steps out with his companion Sarah Jane. Avon finds them and demands that they are locked up, contrary to Cally's wishes. However, when Blake and Avon put down on the next planet to help some rebel group, they are attacked and Blake is captured by Daleks. Avon manages to call for assistance and is teleported back to the ship. He discovers, however, that the Doctor has managed to get out of his locked room using his sonic screwdriver, of course. The Doctor tells Avon that he is an old acquaintance of the Daleks and says that he can free him. Avon reluctantly accepts his help, and the Doctor, Sarah Jane, Avon and Vila teleport down to the surface. Etc. What do you think? Gail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 09:33:11 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Flat Robin #45 - Part 1 of 6 Message-ID: <005401beb965$408cb030$0c01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joanne wrote: > The irresistable urge to cast Blake as Peter and Avon > as Edmund kicks in. But out of Cally and Jenna, which > one is Susan and which one Lucy? > > Oh, silly question. I forgot about the healing cordial > and Cally's descent into nursemaid And don't forget Susan's penchant for frivolities. She is spoken of in hushed terms in 'The Last Battle' because she has started to use, horror of horrors, LIPSTICK! On the Trinians theme - I'd like to see them at Malory Towers. Avon would definitely save the day by scoring a lucky goal in the lacrosse match *just* before the whistle goes. Then they can all go back to the school and drum out the lower middle class girl like they did in 'Third Form at Malory Towers'. Well, she was very vulgar. Una -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #193 **************************************