From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #213 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/213 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 213 Today's Topics: [B7L] Servalan Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan) [B7L] [BL7] Question and comments about Cally's death Re: [B7L] Servalan Re: [B7L] Cally Re: [B7L] The estimable Jarriere Re: [B7L] Servalan Re: [B7L] Jenna (was Servalan) Re: Tarrant and his crewmates (was Re: [B7L] Servalan) Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan) Orac (was Re: [B7L] The estimable Jarriere) [B7L] Re: The estimable Jarriere Re: [B7L] Re: The estimable Jarriere Re: [B7L] Jenna (was Servalan) Re: [B7L] Servalan Re: Tarrant and his crewmates (was Re: [B7L] Servalan) Re: Tarrant and his crewmates (was Re: [B7L] Servalan) Re: [B7L] Jenna (was Servalan) Re: [B7L] Servalan Re: [B7L] web pages moving Re: [B7L] Servalan Re: [B7L] Servalan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 00:43:09 EDT From: SugarHIB7@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Servalan Message-ID: <1a7bd213.24b8295d@aol.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_1a7bd213.24b8295d_boundary" --part1_1a7bd213.24b8295d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << In a message dated 7/9/99 4:15:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Mac4781@aol.com writes: << Fans may not like Tarrant, but transferring that dislike to B7 characters is quite a stretch of the imagination. >> Fans don't like Tarrant????? Is this a widely held opinion in the B7 fandom? Why don't they like him? I can recall when I first saw "Powerplay" I liked Tarrant very much. Then as third season wore on I began to find him irritating. I didn't like the way he challenged Avon's authority; I didn't like him arguing with Avon; I didn't like him acting like he had any right to make decisions about the Liberator; after all, he was only a guest on that ship. He was there only because Avon allowed it. But as the years passed and I kept watching, my view of Tarrant changed. Though I still sometimes find him irritating (affectionately so, but still irritating), I came to see that he DOES have rights among the crew. After all, he's NOT just a tenant on board the Liberator. Once Avon had accepted him into the group and given him access to ZEN, Tarrant was as much a member of the crew as any of the others. He took the same risks, and his life was just as much on the line as everyone else's. That gave him rights. Even the right to argue with Avon. :) I don't think Avon ever found him as irritating as I did. ;) And now I find I enjoy Tarrant. I miss Blake but Avon and Tarrant work well together, especially in fourth season. Well, anyway, that's my view on Tarrant. I love Avon but I don't dislike Tarrant. Sugar --part1_1a7bd213.24b8295d_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: SugarHIB7@aol.com From: SugarHIB7@aol.com Full-name: SugarHI B7 Message-ID: <1a7bd213.24b82846@aol.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 00:38:30 EDT Subject: Servalan To: Mac4781@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 In a message dated 7/9/99 4:15:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Mac4781@aol.com writes: << Fans may not like Tarrant, but transferring that dislike to B7 characters is quite a stretch of the imagination. >> Fans don't like Tarrant????? Is this a widely held opinion in the B7 fandom? Why don't they like him? I can recall when I first saw "Powerplay" I liked Tarrant very much. Then as third season wore on I began to find him irritating. I didn't like the way he challenged Avon's authority; I didn't like him arguing with Avon; I didn't like him acting like he had any right to make decisions about the Liberator; after all, he was only a guest on that ship. He was there only because Avon allowed it. But as the years passed and I kept watching, my view of Tarrant changed. Though I still sometimes find him irritating (affectionately so, but still irritating), I came to see that he DOES have rights among the crew. After all, he's NOT just a tenant on board the Liberator. Once Avon had accepted him into the group and given him access to ZEN, Tarrant was as much a member of the crew as any of the others. He took the same risks, and his life was just as much on the line as everyone else's. That gave him rights. Even the right to argue with Avon. :) I don't think Avon ever found him as irritating as I did. ;) And now I find I enjoy Tarrant. I miss Blake but Avon and Tarrant work well together, especially in fourth season. Well, anyway, that's my view on Tarrant. I love Avon but I don't dislike Tarrant. Sugar --part1_1a7bd213.24b8295d_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 23:46:21 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan) Message-ID: <3786EC3C.80D1AC2C@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neil Faulkner wrote: > Mistral wrote: > +ADw-Hmm. It's been my experience that two very independent > people who've been alone for some time can grow tired > of the complete isolation, find kindred spirits in each other, > and form a bond that pretty much shuts the rest of the > world out. +AFs-By which I mean to say that the bond itself > is impervious, not that they give up interacting with others.+AF0- > > That kind of bond is love as commitment, not love as romance+ADs- > a safe place to leave your heart, as opposed to a dangerous > roller-coaster ride of untrustworthy feelings. We know that > Avon is capable of great commitment+ADs- I think that Soolin's > patient and tenacious avenging of her family indicates that she's > capable of it as well. If they managed to arrive at that commitment > before reaching a really interesting side road, they'd turn down it > together, or not at all.+AD4- > > A great description. Too bad I see it as more applicable to Cally than > Soolin. And she and Avon were stuck in a maze, never quite finding a road > long enough and straight enough to walk down together. Well, you *know* we're going to be on the opposite sides of this one forever. It's still an interesting topic, though. The thing is, for what I'm talking about to work, you have to start with shared values. Avon's and Cally's core values are almost completely different though. About the only overlap that I can see is loyalty; but that's not enough to be going on with. To Cally, 'may you die alone and silent' is a curse; to Avon, that would very nearly be a benediction. I can't in any way see them as kindred spirits. Cally's values are social, emotional, inclusive; whereas Avon's are individual, factual, exclusive. This sets up a situation where her values lead her to encourage him to be more inclusive, and his values lead him to interpret that as invasive, and he will resist her efforts by moving in the opposite direction. It sets up a paradox in which Cally, lonely telepath that she is, *cannot* get her intimacy needs met by Avon as long as she is *trying* to get them met by Avon. Cally of course would interpret this as trying to get Avon to 'be his best self', to 'open up', and Avon would recognize this on the surface; but on a deeper level, he would feel that his identity was under constant attack. One only has to look at 'Children' and 'Rumors' to see that Cally really does *not* approve of Avon's values; it's very difficult to sustain a loving relationship with someone who doesn't approve of your basic identity. I certainly think there was some attraction between them, but in a long-term relationship, one or more probably both of them would, I think, be in constant pain; perhaps Cally might think that it was worth the cost, but I really can't see Avon as willing to put up with that kind of pain for very long. Soolin, OTOH, shares most of Avon's values, doesn't need to change him, doesn't need the intimacy -- and is therefore more likely to get it. Perhaps I'm interpreting Cally a great deal differently than you are? Cheers, Mistral -- "We all have something to hide, and we all have something to tell; we all have a secret name; we all have a secret question-- one question that unlocks our heart."--Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 03:02:35 EDT From: AdamWho@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] [BL7] Question and comments about Cally's death Message-ID: <4197ef1b.24b84a0b@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I didn't hear Cally's last words very clearly. Did she say "Blake"? Poor Vila, to hear Cally screaming in his head as she died, no wonder he wanted to find wine on Xenon as soon as possible. Any version of Cally's death would be depressing, but I think the circumstances of her death were particularly horrifying. Even more than if Tarrant, Vila, Avon, Jenna, Blake, etc. had died in the explosion. When Blake took away Cally's gun in Time Squad, she said, "May you die alone and silent.", and that's pretty much the way she died. Not the way she'd want to die, but a death by a booby trap they were all too shell-shocked to think about until it was too late. She felt isolated from the others in so many ways, and her death was no different. True to form, none of the crew members could openly show sadness or grief at her death, not even Avon. If she had lived and another died in her place, she'd probably do the same thing. I had such a strong initial dislike for Cally, I never thought I'd be so upset at her death. Between that and Zen saying "I have failed you" as he died, Volume 20 should be watched only if anti-depressants are handy. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 00:06:01 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan Message-ID: <3786F0D8.FF51C662@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carol Mc wrote: > Fans may not like Tarrant, but transferring that dislike to B7 characters is > quite a stretch of the imagination. There was never any indication that > Tarrant's shipmates share fans' loathing. Some of them probably quite liked him. I think he and Dayna got along quite well, and I think Blake would have liked him. There is, however, plenty of evidence for a reasonable observer to draw the conclusion that Vila neither liked nor trusted him. I don't think that's at all a stretch of the imagination; I'd say there's far stronger evidence that Vila didn't like him than that he did; Traitor by itself is enough for my mind. Of course Vila wasn't constantly going on about it; you can't live in an armed camp 24-7. > In fact, Blake barely knew him but > was ready to recruit him for his cause. Ah, be fair. That's likely because he had figured out that Tarrant was with Avon. > There is no reason to presume Jenna > wouldn't like Tarrant. She got along with shipmates who had at least as many > flaws as Tarrant does. I'm with Sally here; they'd have worked it out eventually, but there'd have been rough spots because of Tarrant's (probably justifiable) opinion of himself as hot stuff, pilot-wise, and his complete lack of modesty about same. Just IMHO, Mistral -- "We all have something to hide, and we all have something to tell; we all have a secret name; we all have a secret question-- one question that unlocks our heart."--Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 03:08:17 EDT From: AdamWho@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Cally Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-07-09 10:23:52 EDT, rilliara@juno.com writes: << I just got to thinking of all she went through when the Federation killed those rebels with their plague. Was she with a small group, not realizing till after they were dead and she tried to contact others that the whole planet had been killed? Was she with a large group, working herself ragged to care for the huge number of sick and dying as all the other caregivers contracted the disease? What about burials afterward? Was she able to do anything for the dead or did she have to deal with the guilt of leaving them to the elements? >> I'd guess the group of rebels weren't too large, maybe a few dozen? As for burials, I don't see how Cally could bury so many. It's gruesome, but maybe she put all the bodies together, into one pile, and set them on fire. A funeral pyre for her fallen comrades. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 03:14:29 EDT From: AdamWho@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] The estimable Jarriere Message-ID: <951d81d8.24b84cd5@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-07-09 12:36:13 EDT, mistral@ptinet.net writes: << And is he as slow-witted as he seems? Or are we to think of him as normal so that she looks brilliant? Or perhaps he's feigning the airhead bit? But why? >> Servalan's "posse" are frequently grasping, pushy jerks who want to be in her favor so they'll have more power. The repulsive guard in Children of Auron (the one who lied to her about another guard switching the fetuses), is a good example. Jarriere was a simple man she could tell her plans and thoughts to, without any fears of doublecross or sucking up. I doubt he's feigning the airhead bit, it's a possibility, but I didn't have any doubts to his lack of intelligence. The character is very refreshing, I wish he'd made another appearance. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 03:20:01 EDT From: AdamWho@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-07-09 19:15:46 EDT, Mac4781@aol.com writes: << What's far more likely is that Jenna and Tarrant would get along quite well. They are both industrious, bright, responsible, and a nice blend of idealism and pragmaticism. I think Liberator would have been a more efficiently run ship with the two of them to form an alliance of exceptionally talented pilots. >> Possibly. It's just as possible Avon would try to pit them against each other and keep the pilot who wins. Or Jenna would hit the roof as soon as Tarrant tried to give orders. A past history between the two is also an interesting possibility, unfortunately we never had the chance to see them interact. <> She got along with them, but she never liked them. I doubt it's a coincedence she never cared about returning to the Liberator when only Avon, Vila, and Cally were left. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 00:24:25 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna (was Servalan) Message-ID: <3786F529.1355565@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally Manton wrote: > After I wrote wrote: > <([Avon] hadn't thought about the 'crew' side of it at all.)> > > Steve Kilbane added: > one. Maybe he just didn't expect it to be a package deal...> > > No maybe about it, I'd say. If he *had* thought about the three others, he > would hardly have expected any of them to stay with him rather than Blake. Except possibly Vila, whose goals (safety, wealth, pleasure) were far more compatible with Avon's than with Blake's. Vila was frequently unhappy about having to risk his life for the rebellion and no profit. Just IMHO, Mistral -- "We all have something to hide, and we all have something to tell; we all have a secret name; we all have a secret question-- one question that unlocks our heart."--Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 03:35:24 EDT From: AdamWho@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: Tarrant and his crewmates (was Re: [B7L] Servalan) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-07-09 22:24:17 EDT, Tigerm1019@aol.com writes: << When Tarrant stood up to Avon in the third season, the rest of the crew generally backed Tarrant. Children of Auron, Rumours of Death and Ultraworld are good examples of this. In Moloch, Avon and Dayna went on a rescue mission once they knew Tarrant was in trouble. In Terminal, Tarrant leads the expedition to rescue Avon, and Cally follows him. They all seemed to have a very easy-going relationship with him in Death-Watch, including Avon. >> Dayna supported Cally in CoA because she felt for her, not because of Tarrant. If Tarrant hadn't wanted to take the Liberator to Auron, I think Dayna would still argue in Cally's favor. Vila chose whichever side had the larger numbers, deep down, he probably wanted to help Cally too. Wouldn't you say the Tarrant-Cally teaming in Terminal is more of an equal partnership than Cally following him? They both wanted to track Avon. I'm sure the other crew members appreciated Tarrant's good qualities, but the arrogance must have got on their nerves at one time or another. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 01:59:52 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan) Message-ID: <37870B87.31A5E49A@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carol Mc wrote: > Jo Ann wrote: > > > So far as I'm concerned, all that speculation people were doing earlier > > about the way Avon sees women applies quite well to Soolin - she's useful > if > > she works with him, but dangerous if she doesn't. > > Good observation. It fits in with Avon's line in GAMES: > "Belkov trusts no one, which is a strength, because that means that no one > can betray him. But it is also a weakness because it means that he is the > only one who can defend what is his." > > Avon knows the value of trusted associates, as long as they are trustworthy. > :) Yes. But I think you've overlooked part of the significance of that statement. Avon is constantly going on about not trusting people, and about not wanting to be trusted, either. This is pretty much the only place where he talks about the value of trust -- and subconsciously betraying that perhaps he's ready for a little bit of it. And who does he make this admission to? Soolin. > Soolin is the same. And it's that quality in her that makes Avon/Soolin seem > very unlikely to me. I think Soolin knows better than to get emotionally > involved with an untrustworthy employer. After what happened with Dorian > she'd be especially on guard. And she doesn't trust Avon, as her comment in > BLAKE indicates: > > "I really could be quite annoyed if I thought we'd been the bait in a trap > you'd laid for them, Avon." They were all on edge in this ep; Soolin perhaps more than most. His relatively mild response seems to indicate that he's aware that the source of her remark is really stress. > Before I could believe a romantic A/Soolin I'd need to see that she came to > trust him. Or had a personality transplant that sent her pragmatic side > packing. But it's possible to demonstrate that she did trust him. To say that she didn't requires one to make one of two unlikely assumptions. First, that trust is an all or nothing thing. It's not. You might get perfect trust from your pet, or from your very young child, but that's about it. You might have no trust in someone, but any trust at all is trust. Second, that there is only one way or reason to trust. But there are at least three. The first and most common type of trust, and what springs to most people's minds, is that the person trusted has a high standard of behaviour or commitment to the person doing the trusting (or is incorrectly perceived as having such), and can therefore be relied upon. Obviously this kind of trust doesn't exist with Avon-Soolin to any great extent during the fourth season. The second kind of trust is based on the nature of the person doing the trusting, in which no demands at all are made on the one trusted; if you have no expectations at all, then you cannot be betrayed. This is the rarest of all forms of trust. (The only example I can think of is in the book of Job, where Job says of God 'though he slay me, yet will I trust him.') Also not anything that exists with Avon-Soolin. The third type, which I *do* think exists, rests in the ability of the one doing the trusting to predict the behaviour of the other party. Avon and Soolin have respect for each other and a fairly good idea of what each other will do; it's why they work so well together, and why she handles him so well. And the longer they spend together, the more this trust will grow. It rests in the level of understanding; and because they are so similar, I think the level of understanding between them is high. A good example is in Warlord, when he says "don't think I won't sacrifice you." This is another case of Avon's standard 'don't trust me because I don't want the responsibility' speech; and Soolin apparently recognizes it for that; she just smiles in response. IMHO she knows his doing such is unlikely, but if it comes to that, she can take care of herself. Not blind trust, but a reasoned trust. That kind of trust *is* extremely pragmatic. It's also the kind that people like Avon and Soolin would see as a valid basis to start building a relationship. > Avon was just a dangerous employer with a large nose to Soolin. ;) No more so than he was an employer to Tarrant, Vila, or Dayna. The only reference to employment is in Power; but later eps make it clear she was a full-fledged member of the team. Just IMHO, Mistral -- "We all have something to hide, and we all have something to tell; we all have a secret name; we all have a secret question-- one question that unlocks our heart."--Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 02:35:06 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Orac (was Re: [B7L] The estimable Jarriere) Message-ID: <378713CA.B7937B16@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally Manton wrote: > Mistral wrote: > out how to use Orac effectively. (Well, assuming they did it gently enough > to avoid making Avon feel like an idiot.)> > > There is *no* way to put that tactfully enough . Sure there is. Play dumb. Ask questions. Make him think he thought of it. And don't do it in front of the others if you can help it. > And I actually doubt > whether the self-aggrandising box of tricks is as wonderful as we all > think... Powerful enough. We know it could: 1) Blow up DSV1 by scrambling its launch systems. (Redemption) 2) Read any computer with a tarrial cell. (Orac) 3) Send messages to Federation computers. (Star One) 4) Direct Federation computers to run programs. (Traitor) 5) Make highly sophisticated predictions and projections. (Orac, Blake) 6) Learn sophisticated concepts, not just facts. (Ultraworld) 7) Take unilateral action based on its own priorities. (Dawn of the Gods) I'm thinking that with Orac's help, *Jarriere* could have conquered the Federation. Surely the average Lystian could. Grins, Mistral -- "We all have something to hide, and we all have something to tell; we all have a secret name; we all have a secret question-- one question that unlocks our heart."--Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 07:28:29 -0400 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] Re: The estimable Jarriere Message-ID: <199907100728_MC2-7C88-E1C4@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mistral asked: >is there a Jarriere fan out there who has some >thoughts they'd like to share about Jarriere himself and > his relationship with the Supreme Commander? I'm sorry to be dull, but I think it was entirely professional. Servalan's taste in men was appalling; she would never have spotted his estimable qualities. And he'd prefer someone more down to earth (she does reach out and touch his cheek at some point, probably a reflex action with a member of the opposite sex, and he just looks embarrassed). All she was looking for was a non-Federation bodyguard for her unofficial trip to Freedom City. (He's clearly not a staff man - he's knows nothing of Travis.) Of course, she completely failed to spot that he was a resourceful rebel agent sending instructions to Blake via carrier pigeons while studying the Supreme Commander's operational methods, but that's another story. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 05:17:07 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: The estimable Jarriere Message-ID: <378739C3.DEE62A99@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harriet Monkhouse wrote re Jarriere: > I'm sorry to be dull, but I think it was entirely professional. I see no reason for that to be dull. > Servalan's > taste in men was appalling; Avon being the bottom of the barrel, of course ;) > All she was looking > for was a non-Federation bodyguard for her unofficial trip to Freedom City. I see. A master of ninjutsu, aikido, jeet kun do. And possibly her pilot as well? > Of course, she completely failed to spot that he was a resourceful rebel > agent sending instructions to Blake via carrier pigeons while studying the > Supreme Commander's operational methods, but that's another story. If he was sending pigeons to rendezvous with the Liberator, he was certainly none too bright. How about a personal servant? A valet, perhaps? Possibly even slave grade? A servant as confidante has a great deal of precedent in literature and history both. Hmm. Could serve the fool function as well. The possibilities appear to be endless..... Mistral -- "We all have something to hide, and we all have something to tell; we all have a secret name; we all have a secret question-- one question that unlocks our heart."--Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 05:27:51 PDT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna (was Servalan) Message-ID: <19990710122754.54070.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed After I wrote: Mistral added: Peeved rather than unhappy, I would say - Vila's normal reaction to Blake's orders is that wonderful half-nervous, half-resigned, jokey dithering. But while I agree that Vila *may* have preferred to stay with Avon, I very much doubted whether Avon would have foreseen such a decision. In fact, it would have flabbergasted him IMO. Something which would have been fun to see. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 08:30:02 EDT From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sugar wrote: > Fans don't like Tarrant????? Yes, sniff, it's true. > Is this a widely held opinion in the B7 > fandom? Not as widely as it used to be, but still quite evident. :( > Why don't they like him? As Avon said, he's young, brave and handsome. So it must be jealously. ;-) > But as the years passed and I kept watching, my view of Tarrant changed. I applaud your open mind and observant perceptions. It is very easy to get only a shallow picture of a character who isn't your main focus. You lob onto one or two or even a handful of scenes and they become the character in your mind. If those are negative scenes, then you won't like the character. > Though I still sometimes find him irritating (affectionately so, but still > irritating), It is amazing, how the characters' irritations become endearing. :) I think it's because we know they wouldn't be the same people we know and love if they didn't also have those irritations. >I came to see that he DOES have rights among the crew. After > all, he's NOT just a tenant on board the Liberator. Once Avon had accepted > him into the group and given him access to ZEN, Tarrant was as much a member > > of the crew as any of the others. He took the same risks, and his life was > just as much on the line as everyone else's. That gave him rights. Exactly. Tarrant accepted the responsibilities that went with being a member of the crew from the get go. He couldn't help it that others--Avon, Vila, and Cally--had been there longer. Accepting the responsibilities gave him the right to be a fully participating member of the team. > Even the right to argue with Avon. :) Maybe especially that right. ;) > I don't think Avon ever found him as irritating as I did. ;) That's an excellent point. One I quite agree with. I suspect Avon appreciated Tarrant's arrogance. After all, Avon wouldn't want a pilot who lacked confidence. When those pursuit ships were bearing down on Liberator or Scorpio, Avon would want a pilot who could make quick decisions. Not someone who would hesitate and say, "Oh my, I'm not sure I can manage this." They'd be blown to space dust during that moment of indecision. I've often pondered the possibility that Avon looked on Tarrant as a younger version of himself. Someone as arrogant as he was, but who hadn't yet been turned cynical by life's harshness. Which isn't to say Avon thought Tarrant's arrogance was cause for the world to admire him. Avon is honest enough to recognize that some of his...uh...stirling qualities aren't going to enamor him to other people. > And now I find I enjoy Tarrant. I miss Blake but > Avon and Tarrant work well together, especially in fourth season. They do work well together. They came to respect, trust and depend on each other. But even in the early eps (when they were snarling) they worked well together. It was almost instinctive, it was so smooth. I'm thinking of the end of POWERPLAY when they made the move against Klegg and company. They couldn't have had a chance to plan that out. Tarrant wouldn't even have known that Avon's turning him in to Klegg was a trick. But when Avon said to go, Tarrant responded immediately. Another, very small, moment that I like is in ULTRAWORLD. It's near the end. Avon and Tarrant have gone to collect their guns and contact Vila. Avon tosses Tarrant his gun. Again, there was no warning, but Tarrant caught it without missing a beat. It was almost as if they were telepathically connected at times, though I suspect it was more that they were two men who thought the same way. Which is something brought out when Tarrant told Avon he didn't fall for the trick when Avon released the life capsule (in POWERPLAY) because it's something he would have done himself. Eeek, you shouldn't get me burbling about Tarrant. I don't stop. :) > Well, anyway, that's my view on Tarrant. I love Avon but I don't dislike > Tarrant. And I love Tarrant but don't dislike Avon. ;) Seriously, I like them all. They each are unique, complex, and terribly intriguing. And the dynamics that stir all those strong, divergent personalities together turns out the finest of gourmet soups. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 05:34:31 PDT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: Tarrant and his crewmates (was Re: [B7L] Servalan) Message-ID: <19990710123433.44172.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Oh dear oh dear oh dear...I can feel a Tarrant-defence coming on. Adam wrote: I’m equally sure it did. I mean, sometimes *I* want to strangle him myself. But who among this lot can talk? (Gan. And he wouldn't). Tarrant sometimes annoys the living daylights out of Avon, but *no one* can argue that Avon doesn't do likewise to every member of the crews (yes, *even* Gan. See the look he gives Avon when Avon shoves him aside in The Web). One of the things I like about Terminal - my favourite episode for Tarrant, for a number of reasons - is watching him in the early part, repeatedly and forcibly choking down his exasperation with Avon's decidedly high-handed behaviour (not that I blame Avon for one minute. Finding Blake *was* much more important than being reasonable ). But some of us find it much easier to forgive Avon his ego because - um - errr - oh all right, because he's gorgeous (and we think he’s even more wonderful than *he* does). This is *not* a ship for shrinking violets. Both Avon and Blake are every bit as arrogant as Tarrant, and drive each other (and sometimes the others) up the wall with heart-warming regularity. *Blake* has the arrogance to believe he can take on a galactic dictatorship with no more than a marvellous alien ship and six ill-assorted crew members, and to go an impressively long way towards *doing* it. Vila may be self- deprecating about his personal failings, but where his skills as a professional theif are concerned, he's not lacking anything in the ego line either. Jenna, Dayna and Soolin are IMO also none of them exactly lacking ego. On Sue Clerc’s web-page, she's got a lovely bit of description, which I think describes My Two Heroes in a nutshell - 'One of them is an extremely intelligent, arrogant outlaw with a short temper and a ruthless streak. He can really be a bastard sometimes. And Avon is just as bad (and gets better lines).' But doesn't this fit Tarrant too? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 06:20:20 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: Tarrant and his crewmates (was Re: [B7L] Servalan) Message-ID: <37874894.425F8A53@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sally Manton wrote: > But some of us find it much > easier to forgive Avon his ego because - um - errr - oh all right, > because he's gorgeous (and we think he’s even more wonderful than *he* > does). Then again, some of us have to forgive him the sex appeal which tends to obscure his finer qualities -- his independence, intelligence, consistency, wit, loyalty, curiosity, and passion. Grins, Mistral -- "We all have something to hide, and we all have something to tell; we all have a secret name; we all have a secret question-- one question that unlocks our heart."--Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 06:23:19 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna (was Servalan) Message-ID: <37874946.8FFFE9EA@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally Manton wrote: > But while I agree that Vila *may* have preferred to stay > with Avon, I very much doubted whether Avon would have foreseen > such a decision. In fact, it would have flabbergasted him IMO. > Something which would have been fun to see. Heh, heh. Not only flabbergasted, but horrified, as he went to such lengths to have people distrust him. Poor Avon was always surprised when it didn't work, wasn't he? Grins, Mistral -- "We all have something to hide, and we all have something to tell; we all have a secret name; we all have a secret question-- one question that unlocks our heart."--Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 12:20:06 -0500 From: "Lorna B." To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan Message-Id: <199907101727.MAA12971@pemberton.magnolia.net> Carol M. said: >It is very easy to get only a shallow picture of a character who isn't your >main focus. You lob onto one or two or even a handful of scenes and they >become the character in your mind. If those are negative scenes, then you >won't like the character. Very true. I happen to believe there are a lot more positive scenes of Tarrant-Vila interaction (such as the ones you listed in a recent post), yet the handful of ones that can be perceived as negative are the ones a lot of people glom onto and remember. As an example with a different character, I could point to the scene where Avon grabs hold of Jenna on the flight deck when he and Blake are having a divergence of opinion and maintain that this proves that Avon is someone who typically grabs women and manhandles and shakes them if they don't do what he wants. Now I think we can see in the series as a whole that this is not his SOP, but if I wanted an excuse to really dislike Avon, that's a good scene on which to focus. >It is amazing, how the characters' irritations become endearing. :) I think >it's because we know they wouldn't be the same people we know and love if >they didn't also have those irritations. Yep. I wouldn't change 'em. But I'm sure glad I don't have to live with 'em. >Another, very small, moment that I like is in ULTRAWORLD. It's near the end. > Avon and Tarrant have gone to collect their guns and contact Vila. Avon >tosses Tarrant his gun. Again, there was no warning, but Tarrant caught it >without missing a beat. It was almost as if they were telepathically >connected at times, though I suspect it was more that they were two men who >thought the same way. Which is something brought out when Tarrant told Avon >he didn't fall for the trick when Avon released the life capsule (in >POWERPLAY) because it's something he would have done himself. I *like* this. :-) Lorna B. "Cookies and porn? You're the best mom ever!" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 19:32:29 GMT From: dixonm@access.mountain.net (Meredith Dixon) To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] web pages moving Message-ID: <37879ecd.158734821@access.mountain.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I have removed all my stuff from GeoCities due to >the intellectual property theft clause in the new Yahoo contract. >(Okay, I exaggerate, but "perpetual" and "irrevocable" is something up >with which I will not put.) You do know that the boycott and the Haunting worked, don't you? Yahoo caved a week into the protest, when about 650 sites (including mine) were participating in the boycott and another 350 sites were participating in the Haunting. I guess they figured 1000 sites constituted critical mass, or maybe it was the interviews with the protest organizers on CNBC and Fox. Of course, the "perpetual" and "irrevocable" bits still apply to Yahoo e-mail, but Geocities has its own TOS again and I'm told that the Webring never lost its original TOS even though Yahoo had bought them. -- Meredith Dixon Check out *Raven Days*, for victims and survivors of bullying. And for those who want to help. http://web.mountain.net/~dixonm/raven.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 16:24:41 EDT From: AdamWho@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-07-10 08:31:30 EDT, Mac4781@aol.com writes: << It is very easy to get only a shallow picture of a character who isn't your main focus. You lob onto one or two or even a handful of scenes and they become the character in your mind. If those are negative scenes, then you won't like the character. >> That isn't necessarily true in all cases. I hated Cally because of what I percieved to be a lack of ability behind her tough facade (it didn't help that she was taken over by aliens and turned against the crew in her second episode. Not one of Terry Nation's best ideas). But I began to look at her with an open mind, and grew to tolerate, then really appreciate her. I hated Travis 2, but when B7 changed the writing for Travis, around the time of "Trial", and moved him toward being a complete lunatic, I began to like him. Tarrant's mixture of arrogance and blandess rarely interests me. I hate him when he bullies Vila, the rest of the time he bores me. I do like him in Deathwatch and Terminal, and that and the first few minutes of Rescue are as far as I've gotten in B7. For the rest of the series I might like him. I have no idea. The only characters I have a permanent hatred for are the one-episode characters who never had a chance to improve (Sara in Mission to Destiny, Tyse in Bounty, and especially Provine in Countdown). ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 16:35:48 EDT From: AdamWho@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan Message-ID: <4ebead9.24b908a4@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-07-10 13:24:16 EDT, msdelta@magnolia.net writes: << As an example with a different character, I could point to the scene where Avon grabs hold of Jenna on the flight deck when he and Blake are having a divergence of opinion and maintain that this proves that Avon is someone who typically grabs women and manhandles and shakes them if they don't do what he wants. Now I think we can see in the series as a whole that this is not his SOP, but if I wanted an excuse to really dislike Avon, that's a good scene on which to focus. >> Avon always treated Jenna far more harshly than Dayna or Cally. Must be the rivalry over Blake. His remarks become irritating on some occasions ("Trial" in particular), especially when Jenna doesn't insult him back, she just takes it. I love the episodes when she does come back with something."Must be the company I keep" from Shadow is a very good example, probably her best line in all of season 2. Poor Jenna, I think B7 stifled and ignored her in a way they don't seem to with Cally or Dayna. -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #213 **************************************