From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #221 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/221 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 221 Today's Topics: [B7L] B7 Garage Sale: quality items, bargain prices Re: [B7L] Re: webpage Re: [B7L] Re: webpage RE: [B7L] Jenna and Cally Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally (was Tyce (was : Servalan)) Re: Lyst wars (Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan)) Re: [B7L] The Life of Brian [B7L] Re: Lyst wars [B7L] The Avon/Soolin debate Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally... and the wonderful Jarriere Re: [B7L] The Life of Brian Re: [B7L] The Avon/Soolin debate Re: [B7L] The Avon/Soolin debate [B7L] The Avon/Soolin debate [B7L] Re: Lyst Wars II: The Hedgehog Strikes Back ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:09:33 EDT From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se, space-city@world.std.com Subject: [B7L] B7 Garage Sale: quality items, bargain prices Message-ID: <9f6f8324.24bf7ddd@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Linda Cook is conducting another mega B7 sale and asked me to pass along the information to the B7 lists. Below is a list of items. Prices do not include postage. All orders should be sent to Linda at DRAGON6435@aol.com ZINES Avon Calling 1, 2, 3 (Adult-slash) $6 each B7 Complex 1,2,,4,9,10,11 punched, covered and bradded $4 each Blake's Doubles 2 (contains Hellhound Book 4) $4 Dark Between the Stars 1,2,4,5 $5 each Desperado $5 Fire & Ice 1,2 $6 each (Adult- A/B slash) >From the Log of the Hellhound Book 1, 2 $3 each Gambit 1,2,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13 $6 each Last Stand at the Edge of the World $5 Magnificent Seven 1,5,6,8,9 $5 each Mascarada $5 Mind of a Man is a Double Edged Sword $5 Mindfire - punched and unbound $4 Oblaque 1,4,5,6 $5 each (Adult-slash) Powerplay 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 $5 each Probability Square $5 Questions of the Past $5 Rebel Destinies 1 $5 Resistance 1,2,3,7 $5 each Shadowplay $5 Something Unfriendly 1 $5 Southern Lights Special 3.75 $4 (Adult-slash) The Bizarro Zine 1,2,3 $4 The Seven Live On 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,11 $4 The Way Back $4 The Following Zines are Digest Sized: (Ghost) All That Was Ever Ours $1 Avon 1 $3 Bellfriars 1,2,3,4 $2 each Down & Unsafe 1,2,3,4 $4 each Horizon 6,7,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19 $3 each One of the Lessor Hawks $3 Program 1,2,3,4 $4 each or $15 for the set Standard by Several #4 $2 PROFESSIONAL BOOKS B7 Programme Guide $2 B7 Scorpio Attack (hardback) $4 B7 Their First Adventure (paperback) $2 VIDEO TAPE The Stranger Double Feature starring Colin Baker $2 MISCELLANEOUS Paul Darrow Mouse Pad $6 Space City 1998 Ink Pen (still works, corded) $2 PHOTOS (enlargements, not your standard snapshot size) b/w Paul sitting down, gun in hand pointed at camera, serious expression, resting back against a large stuffed bear, second gun beside him. head to lap $5 color Very dark mood piece; dark background, Paul wearing dark suit. Interesting angle where Paul's hand with gun is in foreground on the left. Paul on right, side shot but not a full profile. Holding gun out, gritty expression, head to waist. $5 bw Avon in fourth season, holding gun, looks startled or surprised (but restrained!) head to knee $3 ART Art will be sold by auction. Send bids to Linda; she will keep all bidders informed of current high bid. Auction will run until July 25 (unless Linda sends out a different notice to bidders). Karen River original. color. matted. Linda can't remember exactly; she thinks it is some kind of oil painting. C/U of fourth season Avon looking tortured/grim. Minimum bid: $10 Recommended for fans of suffering Avon. Jean Kluge, signed and numbered print. color. matted. Blue background. Fourth season Avon looking horrified, arms crossed over chest with blood dripping from his hands. Minimum bid: $10 Also recommended for fans of suffering Avon. Jean Kluge print--The Cosmic Juggler (cover of Powerplay 5) Avon juggling balls that contain the faces of his shipmates. This is a gorgeous Avon character study, never mind that it is also gorgeous art. Minimum bid: $5 I've jpgs of the photos and art. If anyone would like to see any of those before making a purchase/bid, please let me know. Note: Orders for any of the merchandise and bids on art go to Linda: dragon6435@aol.com. Requests to see jpgs of pics or art should be sent to me: Mac4781@aol.com Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:54:44 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: webpage Message-ID: <002a01becefb$ea963be0$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neil said: > Hopefully fixed. And I've added a couple more pix to the page, though they > might not mean much to non-Brits. And which are the most frightening things I have ever seen. Una ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:52:02 PDT From: "Hellen Paskaleva" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: webpage Message-ID: <19990715205203.59204.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Neil said: > > > Hopefully fixed. And I've added a couple more pix to the page, though >they > > might not mean much to non-Brits. > >Una: >And which are the most frightening things I have ever seen. You, guys, obviously respect your politicians... ;-D Hellen ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 23:22:27 +0200 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: RE: [B7L] Jenna and Cally Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F555053@NL-ARN-MAIL01> Content-Type: text/plain Susan braved the wrath of FINALACT and wrote: > Jacqueline, Chief High Inquisitioner of the Church of the True Travis?! > I sense I am dealing with some VERY odd people here... Perhaps we have > more in common than we would like to admit! (Didn't like his eyepatch > either...) I remain unrepentant! > Ah, good. That means Penny won't be calling me off at the last moment this time. I think we'll start off with the 'comfy' chair and some teletubbies tapes. Those alone should be enough to strike fear in the hearts of all sinners. And if that doesn't work we'll use an old Tarrant Nostra technique: chocolate deprivation. The great and mighty Penny wrote: There is, right? Joy, I mean. Jacqueline, look that up, would you? Absolutely. FINALACT throws the best parties, gives away the shiniest toasters and has close ties to that most dreaded of organisations: the Tarrant Nostra. There is always joy to be found in a well placed horse's head in someone's bed. As for saving someone from Greif: such a blessed and unselfish act would surely bring a tear of joy to the eye of even the most hardened cynic. Welcome to the cause, sister Alison! Jacqueline ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 17:31:18 EDT From: AdamWho@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally (was Tyce (was : Servalan)) Message-ID: <34fade37.24bfad26@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-07-15 06:15:42 EDT, 101637.2064@compuserve.com writes: << It looked like a hell of a lot more than compassion from where I was sitting - she goes rushing to Jenna when Gan's still banging about a few feet away, and helping to stop him first has to be the most natural move. >> I think Cally would run to help any of the others if they were in the same situation, not just Jenna. She sees someone injured, she doesn't know what the extent of Jenna's injuries are, I guess she assumes taking a short amount of time to help a comrade is more important at the moment. I never said Jenna and Cally hated each other, I just don't think they had any wonderful friendship. They worked together, they probably had some respect for each other, but not much else. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 17:52:59 EDT From: AdamWho@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: Lyst wars (Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan)) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-07-15 07:07:12 EDT, Mac4781@aol.com writes: << > And here's another question - have your opinions ever changed as a result of > discussions on the lists? The major changes to my perceptions of the main characters took place long before I entered cyberspace, during ten years of similar exposure to other viewpoints as presented in Federation Archives, Pressure Point, Rallying Cally, On the Wing, Neutral Arbiter, etc. The lists, however, continue to sharpen my perceptions. It might be a character quirk that I'd not noticed before. Other times, someone will present canonical references that will put into perspective something I've felt on an instinctive level. Quite often, the lists provide valuable insight into minor characters that I've spent less time pondering. It's very exciting when any of that happens. >> Hearing opposing viewpoints has given me greater insight into characters I normally don't pay attention to (for instance, the recent Vila\Tarrant posts). Hearing others extol the virtues of characters I feel nothing for occasionally changes my opinion. My first few days on Lysator, I didn't care for Cally, and never understood why other people liked her so much. I decided to give her another chance, and that (along with seeing "Shadow" for the first time), made me appreciate Cally, instead of just ignoring\tolerating her. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:01:01 EST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] The Life of Brian Message-ID: <19990716040101.92959.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I shall rap myself across the knuckles later for succumbing. In the meantime: He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy! (Bad subject line. Bad me.) Regards Joanne (looking for a hiding spot - just how close are the ties between FINALACT and the Tarrant Nostra, anyway? The TN have been tracking me for some time as it is...) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:30:44 -0700 From: Pat Patera To: B7 Lysator Subject: [B7L] Re: Lyst wars Message-ID: <378EB574.89856A1@netzero.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison Page wrote: > > And here's another question - have your opinions ever changed as a result of > discussions on the lists? Or, have your opinions of characters changed from reading fan fic? It changed my initial perceptions considerably. Upon first viewing, I took Blake at face value, as the hero. Fanfic convinced me that he was a manipulative, domineering s.o.b. I took Avon to be a cranky, self-serving jerk. Fanfic convinced me that he was a noble, brilliant, misunderstood savant. Tarrant, on series viewing, I took for the brave young handsome gallant. Fanfic convinced me he was a boor and a bully. Just this week I rewatched season 4 (after many years of only zine and list reading, not series viewing) and again find Tarrant quite heroic and charming in every respect. Perhaps the lesson is consume a balanced dietary intake of tv, zine and lyst B7 vitamins? Pudgy Pat P ________________________________________________________ NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:48:09 PDT From: "Rob Clother" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] The Avon/Soolin debate Message-ID: <19990716074809.67772.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mistral: >Take a look at Headhunter, Gold, Warlord (especially >Warlord). Their working relationship is smooth, efficient, wordless I haven't taken a look at the tapes, but I trust you on this. However, an efficient working relationship isn't necessarily contingent on close personal relations. To name just one outside example, Steve Redgrave and Andy Holmes (World and Olympic rowing champions in pairs in the late 80s and early 90s) weren't far off hating one another. Yet they functioned like a single organism when they were in a boat together. Me/Mistral/Pat P. : >Someone as complicated as Soolin would need to be with someone who >understood her perfectly. Avon simply lacked the subtlety and >sophistication to do so. ... >Dear me, I'd have to think that Soolin's well aware that no-one >is ever understood perfectly. To the extent that nothing is truly perfect, I'll agree with you. Yet, while true perfection isn't possible in anything, the word "perfect" has its working definitions. Avon showed his own level of understanding to be far short of even the loosest working definition in "Blake" -- announcing out of the blue to the whole crew that he'd found Blake, on the planet where Soolin's family had been murdered. Did he give any forethought or forewarning to Soolin herself? Uh-uh. Then he ignored her distress, and it was left to Dayna to express a modicum of sympathy. >I agree. Soolin in practical, with no delusions about how things >could be, >should be, might be, etc. That's Cally territory. I could >even see Dayna >operating from a sense of righteousness illusion. >And, of all the >characters (except perhaps Servalan and Carnell) I >found Avon the most >subtle and sophisticated. He wasn't very subtle or sophisticated with Major Grenlee in "Rumours". Or, for that matter, Servalan in any of their interactions. Or Blake. And I'd better not mention "Power". So I won't. >As for Avon's flaws, I think Soolin would appreciate them, for she is >flawed herself and could not measure up to a perfect paradigm of >loving >warmth and compassion such as an emotionally "whole and >undamaged" man >might be. That word "perfect" again. I agree with Carol Mc here: Soolin wouldn't strive for true perfection in a partner -- only enough understanding and consideration to establish a solid bond of trust. Avon couldn't deliver even that. Otherwise why would Soolin even have suggested that Avon had used her and the others as bait in "Blake"? -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 05:10:18 -0400 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally... and the wonderful Jarriere Message-ID: <199907160510_MC2-7D34-FEEA@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Susan Riaz wrote: >Witness Cally's behaviour in "Orac" when Jenna is ill with >radiation sickness and staggers in the corridor returning to her >cabin. Cally is obviously concerned, and rushes up to help her. Is that the time she grabs Jenna's breast? >Oh, PLEASE don't tell me that there are Jarriere fans? >Please, please! I don't believe it - I can't believe it. Your horizons need broadening. Of course we're here. And clearly Sally and I need to borrow a few inquisitors from F.I.N.A.L.A.C.T. Why isn't Penny around when we need her? Harriet Jarriere's Always Discriminating Enthusiasts ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 06:42:43 EDT From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] The Life of Brian Message-ID: <2cb11d1c.24c066a3@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jo Ann wrote: > He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy! > > (Bad subject line. Bad me.) We'll miss Jo Ann when the FINALACT finishes with her. ;) > (looking for a hiding spot - just how close are the ties between FINALACT > and the Tarrant Nostra, anyway? The TN have been tracking me for some time > as it is...) It's true. And we've got her spotted right now. Doppler radar picked her up cowering under a desk. Jacqueline, if you need a fix, give a whistle. ;) Meanwhile, Harriet asked: > Why isn't Penny around when we need her? The Tarrant Nostra hopes it's because she's busy adding more Tarrant Trouser shots to her web site. Now that Rob is active again, the TN wants to know how that 14th Century AU is coming. Tarrant did recover from that bout of plague, didn't he? :) Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:45:20 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] The Avon/Soolin debate Message-ID: <003701becf89$3fe0f850$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rob wrote: > However, an > efficient working relationship isn't necessarily contingent on close > personal relations. To name just one outside example, Steve Redgrave and > Andy Holmes (World and Olympic rowing champions in pairs in the late 80s and > early 90s) weren't far off hating one another. Yet they functioned like a > single organism when they were in a boat together. Steve Redgrave... Mmmm... Una ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 05:55:51 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] The Avon/Soolin debate Message-ID: <378F2BD6.B5810680@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rob Clother wrote: > I haven't taken a look at the tapes, but I trust you on this. However, an > efficient working relationship isn't necessarily contingent on close > personal relations. To name just one outside example, Steve Redgrave and > Andy Holmes (World and Olympic rowing champions in pairs in the late 80s and > early 90s) weren't far off hating one another. Yet they functioned like a > single organism when they were in a boat together. You're right, of course, but, meaning no denigration of rowing, it's got by no means as many variables as Avon and Soolin cope with on a routine basis. They have to understand how each other thinks at a far more basic level than just about one particular sport. > >Dear me, I'd have to think that Soolin's well aware that no-one > >is ever understood perfectly. > > To the extent that nothing is truly perfect, I'll agree with you. Yet, > while true perfection isn't possible in anything, the word "perfect" has its > working definitions. Avon showed his own level of understanding to be far > short of even the loosest working definition in "Blake" -- announcing out of > the blue to the whole crew that he'd found Blake, on the planet where > Soolin's family had been murdered. Did he give any forethought or > forewarning to Soolin herself? Uh-uh. Then he ignored her distress, and it > was left to Dayna to express a modicum of sympathy. Er, this is a thinking vs. feeling distinction, here. Avon and Soolin are more on the thinking end of the scale, Avon more so, of course. Even assuming that he knew she was from GP, which is never explicitly stated, I see no reason for him to forewarn Soolin. The rebellion is essentially their work, but her family history is personal. A thinker would not want their or anyone else's personal feelings brought into the work environment; you keep them separate. For him to warn her would be patronising; it would imply that she was unprofessional. (I'd certainly be completely insulted if an employer or coworker thought my personal life was any of their business unless it were already causing problems with my work.) Avon would expect Soolin to cope; as she would expect him to if she were in charge. Can't really see her going to Avon in private and saying 'just thought I'd let you know that we're going to Earth because you killed your girlfriend there and might need some time to adjust first.' How rude! The only exception to this would be if they were already a couple; in that case the personal relationship overrides the professional one, and of course they'd discuss it ahead of time. > >I agree. Soolin in practical, with no delusions about how things >could be, > >should be, might be, etc. That's Cally territory. I could >even see Dayna > >operating from a sense of righteousness illusion. >And, of all the > >characters (except perhaps Servalan and Carnell) I >found Avon the most > >subtle and sophisticated. > > He wasn't very subtle or sophisticated with Major Grenlee in "Rumours". Or, > for that matter, Servalan in any of their interactions. Or Blake. And I'd > better not mention "Power". So I won't. Avon can certainly be brutal. Then again, so can Soolin. They're both very pragmatic. However, your original comment was that he lacked the subtlety and sophistication to understand Soolin. I don't think it would require a great deal, as they're so much alike. > >As for Avon's flaws, I think Soolin would appreciate them, for she is > >flawed herself and could not measure up to a perfect paradigm of >loving > >warmth and compassion such as an emotionally "whole and >undamaged" man > >might be. > > That word "perfect" again. I agree with Carol Mc here: Soolin wouldn't > strive for true perfection in a partner -- only enough understanding and > consideration to establish a solid bond of trust. Avon couldn't deliver > even that. Otherwise why would Soolin even have suggested that Avon had > used her and the others as bait in "Blake"? As for 'Blake', my opinion of the whole ep is that everyone was on edge and behaving out of character. It was mostly stress talking, and he knew it, which is why he answered as mildly as he did. And as for 'enough understanding and consideration to establish a solid bond of trust', as I've said previously, in series four the only trust I see them having is an understanding of each other's behaviour, due to their similarity. That has to expand before there's any consideration, any trust based on knowing you won't be betrayed. I believe that could develop over time, although it might take a few years. Soolin's got both the mindset to understand and appreciate Avon's strengths and the compassion to forgive his weaknesses. In all honesty, I can't think of another female character in the series that has both. Just IMHO. Er, addendum to that. Soolin is perhaps the only one who wouldn't see as weaknesses some of the qualities in Avon that he himself thinks of as strengths. Also IMHO. What fun :) Grins, Mistral -- "It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo." --the third Doctor ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:14:21 EDT From: SugarHIB7@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] The Avon/Soolin debate Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/16/99 12:50:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com writes: << Avon showed his own level of understanding to be far short of even the loosest working definition in "Blake" -- announcing out of the blue to the whole crew that he'd found Blake, on the planet where Soolin's family had been murdered. Did he give any forethought or forewarning to Soolin herself? Uh-uh. >> It was my impression that none of them (not even Avon) knew that Soolin was from GP until she announced it at that moment. Therefore Avon had no reason to believe Soolin needed to be forewarned. << Then he ignored her distress, and it was left to Dayna to express a modicum of sympathy. >> Frankly, I didn't see that she was all that distressed. She was obviously upset and angry at the memory and, of course, it was unsettling for her to be telling the story, but that's not the same as being distressed. Soolin came to terms with that aspect long ago. I can only see her being very put out at Avon if he even tried to offer her comfort or sympathy at that moment. Sugar ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:23:00 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: [B7L] Re: Lyst Wars II: The Hedgehog Strikes Back Message-ID: <000301becfe1$67c668c0$574b8cd4@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mistral wrote: >> So I'm lazy. But supplying evidence without being challenged to do so is something that can really drive me up the wall - I tend to assume that people know what they're talking about until they've proved otherwise (especially on the Lyst - we're all fans here, after all). If nothing else, it makes posts a lot shorter:) >Er... that's an attitude that in most people means 'until they disagree with me'. Tends to lead to becoming dismissive of the person as a whole instead of a few of their opinions. I'd rather scrutinize facts and inferences than people. There's a difference between differences of opinion and outright factual error. If some fan goes and suggests that 'her' Avon is actually an Octopoid from Squidron IX, infiltrating humanity to exterminate all budgerigars for the sake of his little cuttle-brothers, I'll buy it. I don't mean I'll believe it for one second, but if that's how she wants her Avon to be, she can have him that way. But if she goes and says that Avon never shot anyone in the back, then that's a factual error, because he did so in Harvest of Kairos. Most of the character discussion on the Lyst is rarely so clear-cut black and white as this. (Birding analogy - it's a bit like saying, 'A Robin has a red breast, therefore Robins are red all over.') (Can I just reemphasise that I'm not saying or even trying to imply that I would like to see a Lyst free of character analyses. I'm just saying why I don't find them terribly interesting.) >We may all be fans but we all have different backgrounds and communications styles. Generalities are frequently misinterpreted; also humor; I've known you to think I missed one of your jokes when in fact I was responding in kind. I suspect what people say on the Lyst is -very- closely tied up with their respective backgrounds, and that applies not only to generalities but also specifics. Enlarging on specifics might even run the risk of confusing the issue still further, rather than clarifying, since the writers' background-related assumptions become even more tightly woven into what they say. But short of everyone supplying an exhaustive bio of themselves, what can we do to overcome this? >> I doubt if you'll ever change mine. I certainly don't believe I could ever change yours:) > >Only because you don't care to try; you're certainly more capable of it than some. But I don't -want- to change anyone's mind. Not on B7, at any rate. If they want to change their own, then fine. >Nor am I as dull and closed-minded as you sometimes seem to imply I do hope I've never implied that I consider you to be close-minded:) >A vigorous defense of one's position doesn't always imply an unwillingness to change it -- *if new data justifying a change is acquired*. A 'vigorous defence' suggests that one considers oneself to be under equally vigorous attack. >> Since I wasn't trying to get you or anyone else to reevaluate their attitude to Cally, looking for an incentive to do so would be a pretty pointless exercise. > >Hmm. What was the point of commenting then? All of us standing around in a room just shouting our opinions would be as dull as it would be unproductive. I'm afraid that I'm not clever enough to draw any inference here other than your wanting to join in the fray and yet appear to hold yourself loftily above it at the same time :) What fray? Why are you constantly referring to Lyst discussion in such blatantly pugilistic terms? This ain't no fragging war zone. Or is it? I comment because I care enough about my opinion to want to share it (but not in any generously altruistic manner, I'm afraid, though if anyone else picks up on it and integrates it into their interpretation of - in this case - Cally then they're welcome to do so). Since the remark was only an opinion, I didn't see how it required any further elaboration. It's neither supported nor denied to any significant extent by the series. >> We obviously have a very different approach here. At least you acknowledge that I've given the characters some thought... My impressions of the characters is probably based on subliminal absorption of them over the course of all the relevant episodes, rather than specific focussing on particular moments, actions, statements etc. Obviously I notice what they do/say, but I don't -study- such things. I acquire a general fuzzy impression rather than a sharply detailed picture. > >Certainly my impressions are mostly acquired by osmosis. Oh, so you admit you've got water on the brain:) >Specific points are merely for illustration; I'd guess this is the case with all the character-centric bunch. >> >> >> Guaranteed to have me reaching for the sick bag. They're colleagues, not cousins. > >Forced to live in each other's pockets and find a way to deal with each other whether they want to or not. Rarely true of colleagues, who for the most part put on their polite professional faces on at work and go home at the end of the day. Not on the factory floor, they don't. Just the other night, Shane on machine #12 got Dennis on #13 to call me over, just so Shane could creep up behind me and stick a broom handle up my arse. Very professional, very polite. We leave all that P-and-P stuff to the white shirt wankers in their offices upstairs. You don't see -them- having wrestling matches in the forklift bay. Or making cricket balls out of off-cuts. Or sitting halfway up a machine pretending to be a chimpanzee (and doing a damn good job of it too - it's like a jungle sometimes...) I could make a class issue out of this, y'know. Neil -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #221 **************************************