From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #224 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/224 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 224 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally [B7L] Re: The Life of Brian Re: [B7L] Test. Don't Bother To Read. Really. [B7L] Scriptwriters [B7L] sense and sensibility Re: [B7L] Re: The Life of Brian Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally Re: [B7L] Soolin and Avon? Mmmm... Mmmmm... Mmmmm Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally... and the wonderful Jarriere Re: Avon & Vila (was Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long)) Re: [B7L] Scriptwriters Re: [B7L] Re: Tarrant and Vila [B7L] Jenna and Avon (Cally seems to have dropped out...) Re: Avon & Vila (was Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long)) Re: [B7L] Jenna and Avon (Cally seems to have dropped out...) Re: [B7L] Scriptwriters Re: [B7L] sense and sensibility [B7L] Outside the canonic game (was Writers) [B7L]Avon and Soolin Re: [B7L] Scriptwriters RE: [B7L] Scriptwriters ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:19:07 EDT From: AdamWho@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-07-19 07:47:47 EDT, smanton@hotmail.com writes: << I just see her as someone who likes people to fit neatly into her preconceived notions. Gan does. Blake and Vila seem to (emphasis on the word seem). Cally, as an alien, and Avon, who is hardly the world's most predictable creature at the best of times, don't. >> I think Avon puts Jenna into a box as well, as some love-struck Blake devotee who will do and say anything her Fearless Leader asks her to. He certainly throws that in her face as much as possible. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:09:54 -0400 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] Re: The Life of Brian Message-ID: <199907191444_MC2-7D8D-92B8@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joanne asked: >just how close are the ties between FINALACT >and the Tarrant Nostra, anyway? Penny manages to carry out an impressive balancing act between Tarrant Nostra and Tarrant Numquam, to which I have the honour to belong. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:09:47 -0400 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: Re: [B7L] Test. Don't Bother To Read. Really. Message-ID: <199907191444_MC2-7D8D-92B6@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Pat Patera wrote: >All you little mousies play >While Calle Cat is still away... Watch out! He's been practising his growling technique on some mad dogs and will come back FIERCER THAN EVER! Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:36:50 +0100 From: S Riaz To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Scriptwriters Message-ID: <37937E51.16352B0@virgin.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mistral wrote: Tarrant confuses me because I can't find the pattern. I think this is true of all the characters and the real reason is lousy scriptwriters (well, some of them anyway). Some scriptwriters championed some characters - so we have Tarrant behaving like the leader in "Kairos" and then deferring to Avon in other episodes. When I first saw B7 on TV I disliked Tarrant immensely - probably because Blake had gone (sob!) and I loved Blake. However, in viewing him later, I found him a very interesting character. He was, though, probably the least sympathetically written character in most episodes. In "Death-Watch" his character is written with some feeling. But in SO many episodes, he is simply bullish, bullying and a plain old pain in the butt. I think it was a shame, actually. Tarrant could have become so much more, if he was allowed. I remember Gareth Thomas in an interview saying that in the first series he broke a mans neck and they had a lovely gory sound effect! But, in the second series, it all became "too violent" for the Beeb and he had to act more as a "hero". I would have imagined that if the Beeb had wanted Blake to be a role model they wouldn't have sent him to Cygnus Alpha accused of child abuse! Can you imagine a US show having that kind of accusation thrown at a main character! Sally Manton - Hi - come join me! We'll lock ourselves in said bunker and watch B7 -series 1,3 & 4!!! > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:13:37 +0100 From: "Alison Page" To: "lysator" Subject: [B7L] sense and sensibility Message-ID: <003b01bed22b$aae4ca60$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was thinking about the very interesting disagreement between Mistral and Gail about Avon and Tarrant. It sets up a nice opposition: hard headed - Avon in 'Orbit' - 'better that one die unfairly than that none survive' (sense) soft headed - er.. I mean soft hearted -Tarrant in 'DotG' - 'better that all die than that one survive unfairly' (sensibility) It's so neat isn't it? And obviously the two sides each find the other incomprehensible. Anyway last night I was watching Emma Thomson's version of Sense and Sensibility, which was pretty good. The Dashwood sisters are set up to show exactly this dichotomy. So, Tarrant is Marianne Dashwood, and Avon is his (I mean her) big sister, Elinor. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:20:09 PDT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: The Life of Brian Message-ID: <19990719212010.40473.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Harriet wrote: Okay, I'll bite...what is the Tarrant Numquam? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:43:45 EDT From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally Message-ID: <469876af.24c50421@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/17/99 6:31:31 PM Central Daylight Time, AdamWho@aol.com writes: << I went from disliking to tolerating Cally, but the first episode I really like her in is "Shadow". She's very strong and resourceful in Shadow, with no help from anyone but herself and moondiscs >> I agree with you, Shadow is one of Cally's very best episodes. It does a nice job not only showing her "strong and resourceful" side, but also explores what it means for her to live without that psychic connection of other Auronars. It is this need to have a connection with another that almost causes her destruction when the creature from the other dimension boxes her into herself. This need for the other is very similar to what the INFP feels, causing her/him to seek out the conversation and reach some common ground with another, something that I believe the INTJ does not need, at least not in the same way. (Wrong? Please correct me if I have the INTJ-thing wrong AGAIN!) This need is also illustrated in Sarcophagus, where because of it, Cally is attracted to the evil alien and is almost consumed by her. Gail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:54:39 EDT From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Soolin and Avon? Mmmm... Mmmmm... Mmmmm Message-ID: <7447cd31.24c506af@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wrote: And Sally replied: You're not biased by any chance, Gail? This made me laugh, Sally! Biased? Gee, I don't know!!?!! Actually, I wrote that hoping to get a response just like yours. Still, I don't find Cally self-righteous and take her as she seems to be. (For me, Blake is the self-righteous one!) I guess I tend to concentrate on her because I can empathize so easily with her struggles. Furthermore, Avon seems to be a man full of past hurts and he seems a prime candidate for her compassion. Gail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 08:56:43 EST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally... and the wonderful Jarriere Message-ID: <19990719225643.70050.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: "Sally Manton" >Sally - heading for the bunker...(Joanne, Susan, let me in!!!) Well, gladly, Sally, but I appear to have been compromised somewhat, seeing as Jacqueline intends to nail a medal to my chest after what I said about Travis II. I am willing to act as a kind of liaison officer, if need be (and it may, if Penny is on the warpath ). Regards Joanne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:00:28 EDT From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: Avon & Vila (was Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long)) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just to start, Mistral, I have to say that I think your original idea was right, that much of our disagreement comes from the T/F differences in thinking. A later post suggests that you have the sense and I have the sensibility. (Rats. And I liked the older sister better!!!) When I say that Avon is too logical to worry about money so much, so that it is really a convenient excuse for him to keep everyone at a distance, Mistral replies: < :) Don't confuse Avon with Spock. Avon's far more complex. Avon is frequently illogical all the way right out to irrational. His behaviour in Rumors is anything but logical. There are *lots* of examples.> No, I don't think I have the two confused. Spock is more firmly grounded in the logical and actively seeks to avoid the feeling (the INTJ's INTJ!), and Avon is certainly illogical at times, but there are plenty of episodes where Spock comes to rest in non-logic also. BOTH men are complex, both struggling with who they are, although to me Spock is moving toward becoming more fully human, while Avon is moving the other direction. However, despite Avon's occasional irrational behavior, he is basically a very logical person, relying on facts, disdaining emotion and feely-feely stuff, very much an INTJ. And his very logical mind would have told him that money was not an immediate problem on the Liberator. Mistral goes on to say: But Avon, at this point, was putting his own survival above all things. Not > only did this ruin his relationship with Vila, one of the few people left > that he could relate to, but it also must have sickened his already sick > soul. And he would have to live with the guilt. Furthermore, since Avon was > putting himself first at this point, I don't think he would have said to > Vila, if the situation had been reversed, "Oh, that's okay that you tried to > kill me. After all, you were just being logical." Rather, it would have > made it impossible for Avon to trust Vila and perhaps would have caused some > sort of retaliation. And Mistral replied: Then Mistral says: > OTOH, in DotG, Tarrant decides that none surviving is better > than one surviving. Excuse me? To me, *that's scary*! > > Well, its fine if others die so that someone can survive, but it must be their own choice! And Mistral replies: ??? Okay, I'd understand this if you'd put it after my Orbit comments, but what has it got to do with DotG? Avon putting on the space suit *doesn't* put anyone in more danger than they're already in, isn't sacrificing someone else in order to live; whereas Tarrant trying to drag the suit off him doesn't accomplish anything except insuring that Avon dies. To me that seems selfish, pointless, stupid, Scary. Oh, that's the episode you meant. Sorry! I'd better go watch it so my comments can make more sense. I suspect that you are right, that Tarrant is being stupid and selfish here. And I have mixed feelings about Stardrive, but that is another episode that I need to rewatch before I DARE to talk about it. Mistral finishes by saying: < :) I think perhaps you're saying you'd rather put your faith in Tarrant's noble nature than Avon's nasty one? Whereas I'd rather trust in my ability to understand one or the other; and Tarrant confuses me because I can't find the pattern. No, no, I don't think Tarrant's nature is noble at all! I think he and Avon are about equally nasty here. Tarrant's threatening Vila cannot be excused. I am also seeking understanding of the 2 men here, but instead of looking for patterns, I am looking for basic character traits that will suggest a pattern....not so different from you, perhaps, but more indirect. Whew! That's my longest post. Mistral, you are awesome! Gail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 07:54:03 +1000 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Scriptwriters Message-ID: <19990720075403.B5519@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mon, Jul 19, 1999 at 08:36:50PM +0100, S Riaz wrote: > all became "too violent" for the Beeb and he had to act more as a "hero". I would > have imagined that if the Beeb had wanted Blake to be a role model they wouldn't > have sent him to Cygnus Alpha accused of child abuse! Can you imagine a US show > having that kind of accusation thrown at a main character! But he was Framed! Makes all the difference. Done to demonstrate how dastardly the villains are. -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat \_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 07:10:49 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Tarrant and Vila Message-ID: <002001bed276$9e751640$96458cd4@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lisa wrote: >Neil Faulkner wrote: > >>Ships on the ocean might go down, thanks to gravity, but surely -space- >>ships go -up-? > >Only during liftoff. Once they're out in space, there is no "up" or "down". >Then, they just go. Come on, you KNOW what I meant. If there has to be a facetious pedant on the Lyst then I'd rather it was me:) Neil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 03:41:34 PDT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Jenna and Avon (Cally seems to have dropped out...) Message-ID: <19990720104135.7020.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed After I wrote: Adam wrote: Errrmmm - in fanfic, yes. In the actual series, I can only think of two lines that could be seen like that myself...the straight-faced (and deliberately innocuous ) "Because I thought you might know," in Weapon, and "this is for your Beloved Leader" in Voice. Can you give me examples of others? I don't believe Avon is interested enough in Jenna to put her in a box - she's just there. He recognises her practical skills and strengths, but is indifferent to her feelings, thoughts or mind. This is not a dig at Jenna, or for that matter, at Avon - it's how I think he sees most people. He's not *interested* enough in them to think about them *as* people (with a few exceptions). For the most part, he really doesn't care about others’ feelings, just their actions. Re the recent debate on Avon/Soolin, for example, I'd suggest he hadn’t reached the point of interest in *her* yet, but might have with time. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 04:04:03 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: Avon & Vila (was Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long)) Message-ID: <379457A1.4C740B62@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gail wrote: > BOTH men are complex, both struggling > with who they are, although to me Spock is moving toward becoming more fully > human, while Avon is moving the other direction. Interesting idea... > However, despite Avon's > occasional irrational behavior, he is basically a very logical person, > relying on facts, disdaining emotion and feely-feely stuff, very much an > INTJ. Well, part of the difference then is that I view him as more or less quintessential INTP. INTJs are according to Keirsey the most self-confident of the types; INTPs come with a natural system of self-doubt in place, as they question everything, including themselves and their own perceptions. IMHO the logic is an attempt to explain the world, and avoid dealing with the feely-feely stuff, which can be quite terrifying. So the logic is superimposed on top of perception; and quite often we build ourselves little towers of logic to support a position that untrustworthy emotions have backed us into. That's what I think is going on with the greed. He's lived so long with the idea that money will afford him safety, that when that's no longer true (even if it ever was, which is questionable at best), he still wants the money; his feelings (fear) overruling his mind. > And his very logical mind would have told him that money was not an > immediate problem on the Liberator. Should have done, but it didn't. He didn't feel safe on Liberator, because he didn't feel sufficiently connected to (trust) the others, and because Blake's crusade could get him killed any day. But money wouldn't help with either of those problems. Can't see it as a front to push the others away, though, looking at Spacefall, Cygnus Alpha, Gambit, the desire seems genuine enough; and in series C and D, he seems to have outgrown it, realised that money isn't important any more in the situation he's in. > Mistral goes on to say: > greed is about that control; a desire not to be controlled by > others 'We were going to be so rich no one could touch us.' > That's Avon fooling *himself*, not putting on a front for others. > > Well, I see your point. If Avon were a control-freak and extremely paranoid > about his future, he might think this way. INTs are extremely independent, want to be responsible for their own destiny; but in a society like the Federation seems to be, where you're slotted into your social class and profession, and have what appears to be very little choice about your life, I'd say it would be really difficult for him not to be a *little* paranoid, because he'd have almost no control over his own life. > But I have never seen Avon this > way. In my version of Avon, he is only paranoid about his relationships. > His self-image, though, is intact. Well, I guess I don't see any way for a person to have a whole self-image and be paranoid about relationships. Fear of relationships usually is a fear of being known, a sense of lacking in one's self, not measuring up. (And I don't believe anyone really has a whole self-image.) > He knows he is an extremely capable and > intelligent, fully able to look after himself. However, because he is also > an outlaw, some money laid aside would be very logical indeed while he finds > somewhere he can hide from the law. (I still think that most of it was a > cover up!) Hmm... but he's an outlaw *because* he was trying to get money! Being capable and intelligent wouldn't be much use in a society that shoved you in a box and left you there. I see the bank fraud as his attempt to 'adapt' :) > And Mistral replied: > > No, I understand the difference between moral and nice! Nice is something > that makes everyone feel good. Moral is the right thing to do. Actually, perhaps I was unclear, but what I was saying is that someone's behaviour doesn't have to be moral to be predictable. > IMO, it is > not moral to kill someone else even if it will save me, even if the other > alternative is that no one survives. (If I am being attacked by this person, > however, I believe it's okay to defend myself.) What scares me is the person > who feels it is okay to murder me to save himself -- and I don't care how > logical he is about it! I'm afraid we're just not going to understand each > other here! Actually, I'm *personally* pretty much in agreement with you. I don't think I could push Vila out the airlock. But I don't think, for the most part, I could jump out of it, either. Avon's solution leaves one person alive; in Stardrive, he saves five. Essentially, a rebellion is a war, and in wartime, a lot of horrible things happen; it's frequently a case of someone deciding who lives and who dies, to sacrifice one person or group for another. If nobody is capable of making those decisions, the death toll is a lot greater; and let's not kid ourselves that those people would have chosen to die. Else we'd have never had to have a draft. Probably one of the things I admire about Avon is the ability to make those hard choices, even when they horrify me. As I think they'd horrify him -- but I also think that he wouldn't have been thinking of it so much as murdering Vila as much as hastening the inevitable; not trading Vila's life for his own, but trading a few *minutes* of Vila's life for his own. (Saving a life, not taking one; as in the glass half empty vs. half full.) The logical side of him would be telling him that, trying to drown out the feeling side's revulsion. But the point I was making about feeling safe was that it's consistent; I can follow Avon's logic; he puts himself first, and so I'd know that I'm okay until my safety crosses his. That seems a little simpler to predict than when Tarrant is going to decide that some benefit to the group merits risking my life. I guess I find predictable risk less frightening than uncertainty. Vila didn't trust Avon so much as he trusted Avon to take care of himself, and Vila could benefit from the fallout. He just didn't foresee being trapped in an either/or situation. (Whee!! Gail, this is Fun!) Cheers, Mistral -- "It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo." --the third Doctor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 04:29:53 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna and Avon (Cally seems to have dropped out...) Message-ID: <37945DB0.A3128CED@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sally Manton wrote: > I don't believe Avon is interested enough in Jenna to put her in a > box - she's just there. He recognises her practical skills and strengths, > but is indifferent to her feelings, thoughts or mind. > This is not a dig at Jenna, or for that matter, at Avon - it's how > I think he sees most people. He's not *interested* enough in them > to think about them *as* people (with a few exceptions). For the > most part, he really doesn't care about others’ feelings, just > their actions. My first thought on this was to agree completely; not so much that he's indifferent as just oblivious to people; lives mostly in the world of ideas, in his mind. But then on second thought, in the situation where his survival depends on these five other people, on what they'll do, on their competence and not just his own, I think he *would* pay some pretty close attention just at first, until he'd sorted them out in his mind, whether he could rely on their abilities and sensibilities or not. At which point, they could become irrelevant again, unless they'd sparked his interest. But that *would* involve putting them in a box. The people he'd stay interested in would be the ones who managed to avoid being boxed. > Re the recent debate on Avon/Soolin, for example, > I'd suggest he hadn’t reached the point of interest in *her* yet, > but might have with time. Certainly, I did mean at some future point; however, we do know at least that he found her attractive, as he says so in Rescue; and now that I think about it; that's the only case where I can recall him actually saying that about one of the women. Mistral -- "It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo." --the third Doctor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 05:00:14 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Scriptwriters Message-ID: <379464CD.1865B8FA@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit S Riaz wrote: > Mistral wrote: Tarrant confuses me because I can't find the pattern. > > I think this is true of all the characters and the real reason is lousy > scriptwriters (well, some of them anyway). This is probably quite true; I'm much fonder of series D Tarrant; he's quite endearing. I suspect it's because the series C eps were written with an older man in mind. Grins, Mistral -- "It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo." --the third Doctor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 14:08:56 +0100 From: "Jenni-Alison" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] sense and sensibility Message-Id: <199907201310.PAA06374@samantha.lysator.liu.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Anyway last night I was watching > Emma Thomson's version of Sense and Sensibility, which was pretty good. The > Dashwood sisters are set up to show exactly this dichotomy. > > So, Tarrant is Marianne Dashwood, and Avon is his (I mean her) big sister, > Elinor. Splutter! So plausible, yet so scary. So does that mean that Servalan is Mrs Dashwood? Oh, no. Wrong gender, so that would be Travis. Servalan can be Mr Willoughby, leaving Tarrant Dashwood alone and despairing after raising false hope on Sand. Cally can be Edward Dashwood! Faithfully traipsing around after Avon Dashwood, giving up everything to be with him(her? I'm getting confused). Oh, dear. I think I need to see this film again, very very soon. Jenni ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 09:26:54 -0700 From: "Ann Basart" To: "Blake's7" Subject: [B7L] Outside the canonic game (was Writers) Message-Id: <199907201625.JAA07315@oberon.dnai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been lurking, watching everyone playing the game of canonic truth. In that game, if someone in B7 changes character, it's up to us to supply motivations. As if B7 were a novel written by one author. Now I'd like to step outside the game for a moment. In Babylon 5, characterization was quite consistent because, for the most part, all the episodes were written by one person. In B7, evidently some authors had very little time to acquaint themselves with the characters. So inconsistency there is often due to the plethora of writers. Now to the point: How might the series have developed if all the episodes had been written by Terry Nation? By Chris Boucher? (Of course this is speculation; but isn't a lot of what we've been doing here just that?) By the way, because I really don't know, is it Bow-tcher or Boo-chay? Thanks, Ann abasart@dnai.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:20:58 +0100 From: "Julie Horner" To: "Lysator" Subject: [B7L]Avon and Soolin Message-ID: <002b01bed2aa$80030f30$170201c0@pc23.Fishnet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mistral said: >> Re the recent debate on Avon/Soolin, for example, >> I'd suggest he hadn’t reached the point of interest in *her* yet, >> but might have with time. >Certainly, I did mean at some future point; however, we do know >at least that he found her attractive, as he says so in Rescue; and >now that I think about it; that's the only case where I can recall >him actually saying that about one of the women. He wasn't entirely indifferent to Dayna at the beginning of 'Aftermath', but that interest soon wore off when he got involved with the family and then when she became part of the crew. Question is, did that initial attraction wane because she was so young and shallow that - although he might have found her initially appealing - he could never have had a significant relationship with her. Or did he realise that a relationship with another member of the crew would have been a BAD idea. Either of the above could be applied to the case of Soolin who he might admire as an outsider on their first encounter but never more than that. Julie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 16:51:36 GMT From: andrew@deluminate.freeserve.co.uk (andrew) To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Scriptwriters Message-ID: <3795a8d5.6303963@smtp.freeserve.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, i'm new to the list and was going to lurk around for a while until the local 2nd hand shops had turned up enough cheap copies of the tapes so that i could contribute with a bit more foreknowledge but i couldn't resist this... >> . I would >> have imagined that if the Beeb had wanted Blake to be a role model they wouldn't >> have sent him to Cygnus Alpha accused of child abuse! Can you imagine a US show >> having that kind of accusation thrown at a main character! > >But he was Framed! Makes all the difference. Done to demonstrate how >dastardly the villains are. Having picked up the 1st couple of episodes it was the starkness of the political situation portrayed that really spurred my reacquaintance with B7. I think that the fact that he was framed for child abuse by a political system which is never identified as being traditionally left or right wing (and thereby falling uncomfortably outside the traditions of political satire) is almost as shocking as if Blake had been guilty. To me, that the system portrayed is not easily, if at all, identifiable prevents the (primetime) viewer from being able to 'locate' the system by the usual rules of decoding TV sf. (Whereas, for example, the Whatever in Star Trek is fairly instantly identifiable as being based on an expanded form of liberalism.) Instead the viewer is left with a political system which is governed by an elite, as all political systems are; given that this is the only ideological indicator we are provided with the Federation becomes, by default, *any* political system. This makes the first episode one of the most daringly subversive pieces of television i've seen, regardless of genre: the villains are those who govern. That it was made at a time of political uncertainty in the UK perhaps underlines this. (Although having said that it may have been that it was this uncertainty that allowed the programme to be made. I rather doubt that such a script would make it into production in these times.) (Further parentheses :) the similarities between Servalan's facial choreography and tonal range when she is attempting to persuade (for example in S-L-D with Bercol and Rontane) and those of Thatcher are uncanny (and although she (Thatch) was not in power at the time she *was* leader of the Tories and a media presence)). Phew! I think I'll have a rest and return to lurking for a while andrew ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 14:30:23 -0500 From: Reuben Herfindahl To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" Subject: RE: [B7L] Scriptwriters Message-ID: <0F144D2FBA41D211A6A000A0C9DD630D090814@STPNT4> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >This makes the first episode one of the most daringly subversive > >pieces of television i've seen, regardless of genre: Agreed. It's one of those rare series premires that hooks you right off the bat. Nothing hopeful here. Our hero doesn't get out of his situation, his lawyer is killed as well as the entire resistance group. I honestly can't say that there is any other series premire that is less hopeful and more bleak. Reuben http://www.reuben.net/blake/ -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #224 **************************************