From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #226 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/226 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 226 Today's Topics: [B7L]Avon and Soolin Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin Re: [B7L] Re: The Life of Brian [B7L] Re: Outside the canonic game (was Writers) Re: [B7L] Outside the canonic game (was Writers) Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin RE: [B7L] Re: Outside the canonic game (was Writers) Re: [B7L] Re: Avon and Soolin Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin [B7L] Re: Avon and Soolin Re: [B7L] Re: Avon and Soolin Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin Re: [B7L]Youngsters (was Avon and Soolin) Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin Re: [B7L] Re: Outside the canonic game (was Writers) Re: [B7L] Jenna and Avon (Cally seems to have dropped out...) Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin Re: [B7L] Scriptwriters [B7L] grammar Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin Re: [B7L] Re: Avon and Soolin [B7L] Horizon Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin Re: [B7L] Horizon Re: [B7L] Scriptwriters Re: [B7L] Scriptwriters ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:54:47 +0100 From: "Julie Horner" To: "Lysator" Subject: [B7L]Avon and Soolin Message-ID: <008e01bed378$37254c00$170201c0@pc23.Fishnet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mistral said: >Mmmm... try this comparison; Soolin seems to me the most like >Anna Grant: strong, intelligent, decisive, able to plan and execute >an action, able to understand and manage Avon; in other words, >able to meet him where he is; and Soolin's not the enemy in >disguise. (Well, as far as we know, except maybe in fanfic.) Well actually you are describing Sula in 'Rumours', we have no way of knowing whether this is an accurate reflection of the Anna Grant that Avon knew (or thought he knew). The only time we see 'Anna' is in Avon's flashbacks where she is lying on the bed looking soulful. (Well who wouldn't? No Julie calm down and get back to the discussion in hand). For Sula/Anna/Bartolomew to have fooled Avon she may well have adopted a very different persona that we can only guess at. Therefore I think any comparisons between Soolin and Anna are invalid (IMHO etc.) Julie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 07:00:55 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin Message-ID: <3795D296.81786E0F@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julie Horner wrote: > For Sula/Anna/Bartolomew to have fooled Avon she may well have > adopted a very different persona that we can only guess at. Therefore > I think any comparisons between Soolin and Anna are invalid (IMHO etc.) Fascinating point. I may just have to agree ;-) It brings to mind two questions, though. 1) Can you really hide your most *basic nature* from someone who loves you (lovers being the most attentive of observers); and if so then 2) Can you be drawn to act in love against your own self-interest for someone who doesn't really know you at all? (Or more specifically in this last case, could Anna?) Hmmm... I have to think about those! Grins, Mistral -- "It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo." --the third Doctor ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:19:27 PDT From: "Rob Clother" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin Message-ID: <19990721161928.44838.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Fascinating point. I may just have to agree ;-) It brings to >mind two questions, though. 1) Can you really hide your most >*basic nature* from someone who loves you (lovers being the >most attentive of observers) Lovers believe what they want to believe. They can be the blindest of acquaintances. -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:55:34 -0400 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: The Life of Brian Message-ID: <199907211355_MC2-7DD1-DCDE@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sally asked: >Okay, I'll bite...what is the Tarrant Numquam? The equal and opposite reaction to Tarrant Nostra, of course. I think Ellie and Steve and I formed it one Christmas. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:57:05 -0400 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "Blake's 7 (Lysator)" Subject: [B7L] Re: Outside the canonic game (was Writers) Message-ID: <199907211357_MC2-7DD1-DD0A@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ann wrote: >In Babylon 5, characterization was quite consistent >because, for the most part, all the episodes were > written by one person. What baffles me is that they still aren't consistent... eg G'Kar and Mollari go from daggers drawn - "I will sign... but not on the same page!" - to being drinking cronies with no obvious transition. I suppose we have to postulate a lot of off-screen development while the cameras were concentrating on the boring humans. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:27:57 +0100 From: "Deborah Day" To: "blakes7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Outside the canonic game (was Writers) Message-ID: <017b01bed3a6$c1d2c480$8c88bc3e@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - >In a message dated 99-07-20 15:15:24 EDT, abasart@dnai.com writes: > ><< Now to the point: How might the series have developed if all the episodes > had been written by Terry Nation? By Chris Boucher? (Of course this is > speculation; but isn't a lot of what we've been doing here just that?) > > By the way, because I really don't know, is it Bow-tcher or Boo-chay? >> I'd always understood it was Bow-tcher Debbie Day. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:56:55 -0700 From: Pat Patera To: B7 Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin Message-ID: <3795FBD7.6E3DA7DD@netzero.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mistral@ptinet.net wrote: > I never had the impression that his interest went beyond > what any man might feel at having a pass made at him by > an attractive, intelligent, lively young girl. Agreed, pedophile Blake might enjoy a pass from a young girl. Dayna, who is at least 18, (more like 20) is a young woman. Would you call an 18-24-year-old male a young boy? A young boy or girl is under age 8. A boy or girl is aged 6-14. A youth (or teen) is aged 12-18. After that, it's man or woman. Terminology is a powerful tool used in the infantilization and sujugation of women. Please don't take it lightly. OK! Grammar lecture is over. Sorry, you just stepped on my pet peeve. Please continue with the fine thread. Persnickity Pat P ________________________________________________________ NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:28:29 -0500 From: Reuben Herfindahl To: "'BLAKES7@lysator.liu.se'" Subject: RE: [B7L] Re: Outside the canonic game (was Writers) Message-ID: <0F144D2FBA41D211A6A000A0C9DD630D090831@STPNT4> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > -----Original Message----- > From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> > To: Blake's 7 (Lysator) > Date: Wednesday, July 21, 1999 1:00 PM > Subject: [B7L] Re: Outside the canonic game (was Writers) > > > >Ann wrote: > >>In Babylon 5, characterization was quite consistent > >>because, for the most part, all the episodes were > >> written by one person. > > > >What baffles me is that they still aren't consistent... eg G'Kar and > >Mollari go from daggers drawn - "I will sign... but not on > the same page!" > >- to being drinking cronies with no obvious transition. I > suppose we have > >to postulate a lot of off-screen development while the cameras were > >concentrating on the boring humans. > > Not really, the first time Londo offers G'Kar a drink, he pours it out. And then there is a very reluctant G'Kar helping Londo out after his torture to kill Cartulga. Even at the very end they do not seem to be that close. There is respect, but not a close friendship. The choking scene in War Without End reminds me a bit of A/T's scene in Blake when the ship is crashing and T makes the sacrafice for Avon. Reuben ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:37:21 EST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon and Soolin Message-ID: <19990721223722.56679.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: mistral@ptinet.net >Sally Manton wrote: > >Bring it out, Joanne, bring it out! I'd like to know what you > > >meant by this. >No, you wouldnt ;-) Mistral's right, Sally, you don't. It's only an impression of mine, and no one has agreed with it either time it came up. This hobbyhorse has to do with Avon and spite (rather than Avon and Soolin!), and it can stay nice and warm and well-fed in its stable, where I can go and feed it lumps of sugar from time to time. As it has a sweet tooth, it rather appreciates that Regards Joanne (time off work for good behaviour approaching rapidly) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:58:37 -0500 From: Lisa Williams To: Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin Message-Id: <4.1.19990721185548.035cbdf0@mail.dallas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Pat Patera wrote: >A young boy or girl is under age 8. >A boy or girl is aged 6-14. >A youth (or teen) is aged 12-18. >After that, it's man or woman. And these age divisions were writ in stone and handed down by what divinity, precisely? >OK! Grammar lecture is over. That's not grammar, it's usage. And highly dependent on individual interpretation and context. - Lisa _____________________________________________________________ Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@raytheon.com Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/ From Eroica With Love: http://lcw.simplenet.com/Eroica/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:42:28 -0500 From: natlyn@mindspring.com (Natlyn) To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Avon and Soolin Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >From: "Joanne MacQueen" >Hello, Natlyn, and what took you so long? Perhaps I'm shy. 8) Actually, it's probably because by the time I think of something to add, someone has already said it better. For example, Mistral made a lot of points that I was thinking, but of course, said them much clearer than I could get across. >Being, unfortunately for those who like the character, ever ready to take a >scalpel to Soolin, I find myself agreeing and disagreeing. > >Certainly, a cool head is on those shoulders, as would be necessary for >anyone who does a lot of biding their time until the right moment. But I >would say she does have a violent streak. The question is whether it was >there to start with, or was it learnt? If the latter, I should say it was >second nature by the time she appears in the fourth series. > >As for impulse, she was rather annoyed with Keiller for killing the doctor >on the Space Princess. Maybe we have to distinguish between what is a >necessary killing and what isn't (and from her point of view, too - >revenging her family would be given a different priority by someone else, >obviously ). Hmm. I can't disagree on this, because I can't seem to recall the ep. Which is it? >About the only time we don't see her doing something >particularly calculated is giving sympathy to Vena, and she only does that >because Vena turned her back on Avon (stop now, Joanne, before that >particular hobbyhorse comes out of its stable). Yes, calculated. Even when Soolin acts swiftly, it still appears to be a calculated thought-out move, whereas when Dayna acts swiftly it appears to be an impulse. Take Dawn of the Gods (please!). When Dayna refuses to give up her teleport bracelet, I don't think it was because she knew Avon needed a stalling maneuver. More like, I'm scared and frustrated; let's rumble. Natalie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:45:54 EST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon and Soolin Message-ID: <19990722014554.49152.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: natlyn@mindspring.com (Natlyn) >Hmm. I can't disagree on this, because I can't seem to recall the >ep. >Which is it? Gold. How could anyone forget Keiller ? Especially in that "laaaarvely" uniform handed out to security types. But then he is quite different to, say, Jarriere, right Harriet ? I can't see him attracting the same kind of devotion as Servalan's offsider seems to. (Oh. I've conveniently forgotten about FINALACT again, haven't I? Why am I tempting fate lately?) Regards Joanne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 07:53:27 -0600 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin Message-ID: <19990518.081341.10262.6.Rilliara@juno.com> On Wed, 21 Jul 1999 03:08:26 PDT "Sally Manton" writes: >Ellyne wrote re Animals: > >one too many drinks.> > >Ahhh...the perfect way to explain *any* episode we cannot abide... >okay, who was the s o b crew member who dreamed up Power? > I _almost_ could say Soolin. She'd had a very stressful day and was trying to decide whether or not she should have anything to do with this group and it triggered a worse case scenario nightmare about what they might be like. The problem is why would she ever have anything to do with them after she woke up? Ellynne ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 07:48:58 -0600 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin Message-ID: <19990518.081341.10262.5.Rilliara@juno.com> On Wed, 21 Jul 1999 07:00:55 -0700 mistral@ptinet.net writes: > > >Julie Horner wrote: > >> For Sula/Anna/Bartolomew to have fooled Avon she may well have >> adopted a very different persona that we can only guess at. >Therefore >> I think any comparisons between Soolin and Anna are invalid (IMHO >etc.) > >Fascinating point. I may just have to agree ;-) It brings to >mind two questions, though. 1) Can you really hide your most >*basic nature* from someone who loves you (lovers being the >most attentive of observers); and if so then 2) Can you be >drawn to act in love against your own self-interest for someone >who doesn't really know you at all? (Or more specifically in >this last case, could Anna?) While Sula didn't strike me as this type, there are also the people who assume a role around others only to find it's a part of themselves they like. If Anna had been like this (which I don't think she was), it would account for Anna being very different from Sula but still being willing to sacrifice for the person who fell in love with Anna or, perhaps, simply being able to love the kind of person who loved Anna. I hate it when a good explanation just doesn't seem to fit the characters. Ellynne ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 07:37:57 -0600 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L]Youngsters (was Avon and Soolin) Message-ID: <19990518.081341.10262.4.Rilliara@juno.com> On Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:56:55 -0700 Pat Patera writes: >Dayna, who is at least 18, (more like 20) is a young woman. >Would you call an 18-24-year-old male a young boy? Yes, but I knew a guy whose behavior at 18 left me convinced legal adulthood should be 21 in this country, mainly for the protection of 18 year olds. Ellynne ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 08:13:39 -0600 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin Message-ID: <19990518.081341.10262.7.Rilliara@juno.com> On Wed, 21 Jul 1999 00:03:02 -0700 mistral@ptinet.net writes: > > >Ellynne G. wrote: > >> Avon knew Soolin had been willing to >> kill them in the first episode. Avon also saw her turn on Dorian >far >> more coldly and thoroughly--and in less time--than he turned on Anna >> Grant. No regrets were later expressed. Her capacity for >loyalty--one >> of the few emotions Avon values--would not have impressed him at >this >> point. > >Two small quibbles that make me see this differently: > >1) I never saw any indication that Soolin cared for Dorian *at all*. I had the impression there was some kind of relationship going on and Soolin never struck me as the sort to be coerced into one or to accept it as part of their business relationship. >2) When she turns on Dorian, he has *already* betrayed *her*. No argument. I would think anyone who had trouble turning on Dorian at this point had rocks in her head. What I found disturbing her emotional reaction, or lack thereof. She was mad at Dorian, but she didn't act betrayed. She didn't act as if she expected _loyalty_ from him before his betrayal or as if he had the right to expect loyalty from her. Think about that. A guy for whom she was willing to kill unarmed strangers who were guests under the same roof as her, meant nothing more than a paycheck. That's cold. However, I have to admit I'm partly just arguing to justify the fact that I can't see them together. I'm not sure why. It's not because I can't see Soolin falling in love. I once worked on a PGP story (unfinished) where Soolin was with Del Grant. For me, they worked as a couple. It may be that, to me, she and Avon both have a front of cold indifference and I don't see either one of them bothering to crack the ice on the other. The idea just doesn't work for me on any level. Except maybe color coordination (icy, tan blonde and fair skinned brunnet, don't tell me there's not an artistic contrast there). Ellynne ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 20:13:54 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Outside the canonic game (was Writers) Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Wed 21 Jul, Harriet Monkhouse wrote: > Ann wrote: > >In Babylon 5, characterization was quite consistent > >because, for the most part, all the episodes were > > written by one person. > > What baffles me is that they still aren't consistent... eg G'Kar and > Mollari go from daggers drawn - "I will sign... but not on the same page!" > - to being drinking cronies with no obvious transition. I suppose we have > to postulate a lot of off-screen development while the cameras were > concentrating on the boring humans. You have got to be joking! How many episodes of B5 have you missed? I certainly saw transition. (Sharing a drink has enormous significance because of earlier episodes) I think most of the variation in B7 is within the range of normal human beings. People are never as simple as the average TV show would have it. (Tarrant was the only case where I saw a shift as they decided to write for the actor rather than the mid thirties man they were writing for in the third season. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 02:21:54 EDT From: AdamWho@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna and Avon (Cally seems to have dropped out...) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-07-21 06:06:06 EDT, smanton@hotmail.com writes: << He's *playing* with them, first riling Jenna, then turning to Vila as an even better target (Cally he can't affect, so he ignores her). I don't think the bit with Vila is aimed at Jenna - it's a gleeful reaction to Vila taking what he says as sincere. >> But Avon seems to get pleasure out of Jenna being near them, hearing every word they've said, then her "you both make me sick." If Avon wanted to taunt Vila, he could come up with a better way than bringing up Blake not coming back and the crew taking the money left behind on Liberator. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 02:25:23 EDT From: AdamWho@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-07-21 06:09:57 EDT, smanton@hotmail.com writes: << Ahhh...the perfect way to explain *any* episode we cannot abide... okay, who was the s o b crew member who dreamed up Power? >> Travis 2 *and* Servalan dreamed up Horizon. Only those two very, very wicked characters could imagine an episode so horrifying. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:08:34 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Scriptwriters Message-ID: <000a01bed411$2cc51a80$c016ac3e@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reuben wrote, replying to andrew >> >This makes the first episode one of the most daringly subversive >> >pieces of television i've seen, regardless of genre: > >Agreed. It's one of those rare series premires that hooks you right off the >bat. Nothing hopeful here. Our hero doesn't get out of his situation, his >lawyer is killed as well as the entire resistance group. I honestly can't >say that there is any other series premire that is less hopeful and more >bleak. I have to disagree here. 'The Way Back' is neither daring nor subversive. It's certainly not politically subversive, since it is lacking in any direct satiric reference. Nor is it particularly subversive vis a vis dramatic content - by depicting Blake and the rebels as the unequivocal good guys and the Federation as unambiguously corrupt and evil, it treads a very well-worn path. The child-molesting angle is innovative, but I don't recall any cries of outrage from the offended viewing public or their self-appointed watchdogs, so if it tried to be daring there then it fell flat on its face. (Unlike Dr Who, which was regularly enraging the Mary Whitehouse lobby at the time.) If I want subversive television I'll watch something by Dennis Potter. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:20:55 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: [B7L] grammar Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Wed 21 Jul, Pat Patera wrote: > mistral@ptinet.net wrote: > > I never had the impression that his interest went beyond > > what any man might feel at having a pass made at him by > > an attractive, intelligent, lively young girl. > > Agreed, pedophile Blake might enjoy a pass from a young girl. > > Dayna, who is at least 18, (more like 20) is a young woman. > Would you call an 18-24-year-old male a young boy? > > A young boy or girl is under age 8. > A boy or girl is aged 6-14. > A youth (or teen) is aged 12-18. > After that, it's man or woman. > > Terminology is a powerful tool used in the infantilization and > sujugation of women. > Please don't take it lightly. > OK! Grammar lecture is over. > > Sorry, you just stepped on my pet peeve. The terms can be used as an affectionate reference to members of either sex. For instance, I've heard Gareth, Paul and Michael referred to as 'our boys' by Horizon and none of them is a day under... well let's draw a generous veil over that one. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 03:23:08 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin Message-ID: <3796F10B.1C387BD2@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat Patera wrote: > mistral@ptinet.net wrote: > > I never had the impression that his interest went beyond > > what any man might feel at having a pass made at him by > > an attractive, intelligent, lively young girl. > > Agreed, pedophile Blake might enjoy a pass from a young girl. > > Dayna, who is at least 18, (more like 20) is a young woman. > Would you call an 18-24-year-old male a young boy? I'm afraid we're just going to have to cut each other some slack on this particular issue, Pat, as we appear to have conflicting pet peeves. One of my worst ones is trying to execute social engineering by artificially redefining terminology. Minor and adult can be defined legally; but terms denoting age, experience, awareness, attractiveness, and many other things are simply a matter of perception. From my age and experience at the time I first saw this episode, Dayna seems a very young girl indeed; and I certainly think Avon would think of her as such. OTOH, Soolin, while I suspect not supposed to be too much older in actual years, I would never think of as a young girl. And, actually, yes, I often think of series D Tarrant as a boy, he frequently seems so sweet, innocent, full of expectation. 'Good ol' boys' in our South, can of course be any age. A teen might see anyone over thirty as old, while to someone in their sixties, thirty seems very young. Then, too, to one's parents, one is always a child; and the list continues. And, interestingly, the word 'girl' originally meant a child of either gender. Dayna, of course, called herself a girl in 'City'; she was trying to provoke irritation in a male, of course, but I do think it indicates she thought herself young enough to be viewed as such. And her father referred to her as a girl to Avon. > Terminology is a powerful tool used in the infantilization and > sujugation of women. > Please don't take it lightly. > OK! Grammar lecture is over. I never take correct grammar and usage lightly, nor spelling, although of course I sometimes make mistakes in all three. Infantilization and subjugation, however, is another one of those perceptual things; I don't view myself as either, and so I am unlikely to object to being called a girl unless the person is being deliberately condescending, the more so if she's female. In all seriousness, I'll certainly *try* to remember not to call you one, if you like. Less seriously, I'm quite sure that Dayna is capable of pointing a blaster at my head if and when she objects. Sharp-Tongued-Enough-to-Split-Hairs Mistral -- "It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo." --the third Doctor ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 03:27:15 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon and Soolin Message-ID: <3796F203.DB99CF3E@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Natlyn wrote: > >From: "Joanne MacQueen" > >Hello, Natlyn, and what took you so long? > > Perhaps I'm shy. 8) Actually, it's probably because by the time I think of > something to add, someone has already said it better. For example, Mistral > made a lot of points that I was thinking, but of course, said them much > clearer than I could get across. Don't let me stop you, Natlyn, I'm usually blathering on in an effort to get/keep others talking! And what's crystal to some is mud to others. Welcome!! Grins, Mistral -- "It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo." --the third Doctor ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:27:06 +0100 From: "Jenni-Alison" To: Subject: [B7L] Horizon Message-Id: <199907221122.NAA27764@samantha.lysator.liu.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Travis 2 *and* Servalan dreamed up Horizon. Only those two very, very wicked > characters could imagine an episode so horrifying. Hey, I like Horizon! (well actually I like all of the episodes for one reason or another). One of the things that really bugs me about Horizon is the evident subjugation of the Silmarino population. Clearly there's an extremely rigid caste system of some kind present even before the Federation arrived (Silma's comment "I'm not one of _them_ with contempt loaded in her voice) and Ro's willingess for these people to die in droves to further Horizon's standing in the Federation indicates to me that the Federation simply exploited an existing system which un-persons its lower castes. The question is, why didn't Blake show any interest at all in liberating these workers? He seems to accept quite happily that Ro is unlikely to care about what happens to the workers, and makes no attempt to change Ro's attitude, yet he can't have failed to draw these conclusions from the scene with the "feeding time at the zoo" when they're all working in the caves. I suppose that Silmarino/Horizon is just an analogue for India in the old British Empire, but it still interests me; why would Blake ignore the plight of a people so clearly oppressed when he risked his life for the Decimas? Jennis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 04:27:52 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin Message-ID: <37970036.DD441153@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the ongoing A/Soo battle, er, debate, er, opinion sharing, Mistral and Ellynne (chronologically) spake thusly: > >1) I never saw any indication that Soolin cared for Dorian *at all*. > > I had the impression there was some kind of relationship going on and > Soolin never struck me as the sort to be coerced into one or to accept it > as part of their business relationship. I agree there was a relationship; but I didn't see any indication of caring. I do think it was business; and considering Soolin's harsh background, she might have simply considered it the norm to have a physical relationship with a partner/employer. Hmm. Might give her another reason to think well of Avon if he didn't just automatically give her the come-on. > >2) When she turns on Dorian, he has *already* betrayed *her*. > > No argument. I would think anyone who had trouble turning on Dorian at > this point had rocks in her head. What I found disturbing her emotional > reaction, or lack thereof. She was mad at Dorian, but she didn't act > betrayed. She didn't act as if she expected _loyalty_ from him before > his betrayal or as if he had the right to expect loyalty from her. Er.. business is business. Loyalty is personal. That's one reason I think Soolin's relationship with the Scorpio crew goes all the way to personal; because she definitely shows the beginnings of loyalty late in the season. I got the feeling that she never liked or trusted Dorian, just tolerated him for whatever reason. As Scorpio was the only way off Xenon, perhaps she'd already decided he was a creep and was simply biding time until she could get off-world. > Think about that. A guy for whom she was willing to kill unarmed > strangers who were guests under the same roof as her, meant nothing more > than a paycheck. That's cold. I'm not actually sure that she was prepared to kill them, just put them at a disadvantage. We don't know what Dorian had told her he planned to do with them. Having said that, though, the necessities of her life had made her extremely cold. We're never told (that I recall) at what point she took up with her family's killers, but all the scenarios I can think of that place her close enough to them to learn gunslinging from them and then kill them are pretty horrific. > However, I have to admit I'm partly just arguing to justify the fact that > I can't see them together. For whatever reason, argue away :-) > I'm not sure why. It's not because I can't > see Soolin falling in love. I once worked on a PGP story (unfinished) > where Soolin was with Del Grant. For me, they worked as a couple. Finish it! Sounds good :-) > It > may be that, to me, she and Avon both have a front of cold indifference > and I don't see either one of them bothering to crack the ice on the > other. Ah. That's just logistics. The point is what's under the ice. Hmm. But, my thought is that Scorpio crew was thawing her. She shows wonderful sensitivity and compassion in spots. I do think the first move must be Soolin's. > The idea just doesn't work for me on any level. Then we'll have to try another *angle*. Now, wait a minute, here! You don't think if she could put up with Mr. High-and-Mighty Dorian Supercilious Grey, she might not actually enjoy a relationship with Avon? Hm, never thought of that. Okay, angle tried. You don't have to believe it, Ellynne. Just write some good, believable fanfic about it. I'm just trying to drum up some fanfic :-) Oh, yeah, after you finish your crossover. Grins, Mistral -- "It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo." --the third Doctor ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 04:44:09 PDT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Horizon Message-ID: <19990722114409.90115.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Jenni wrote: Well, we don't know...maybe that was why Avon was getting so tetchy about how *long* Blake was down there, what with the pursuit ships coming. Blake *had* been telling Ro exactly what he thought of such a thing, and what Ro ought to do about it, and it spilled overtime.... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:38:15 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Scriptwriters Message-ID: <02c801bed43f$dd678610$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neil wrote: > I've heard it said that Terry Nation modelled the Federation on the Nazis, > though I don't know if that's just hearsay or he actually said so himself. > I wouldn't mind knowing. Our Tel based everything on the bloody Nazis (see 'Genesis of the Daleks'). I seem to recall him an interview somewhere where he went on about being a child growing up during the war and how that affected what he wrote. Una ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:12:33 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] Scriptwriters Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Thu 22 Jul, Neil Faulkner wrote: > I have to disagree here. 'The Way Back' is neither daring nor subversive. > It's certainly not politically subversive, since it is lacking in any direct > satiric reference. Nor is it particularly subversive vis a vis dramatic > content - by depicting Blake and the rebels as the unequivocal good guys and > the Federation as unambiguously corrupt and evil, it treads a very well-worn > path. The child-molesting angle is innovative, but I don't recall any cries > of outrage from the offended viewing public or their self-appointed > watchdogs, so if it tried to be daring there then it fell flat on its face. > (Unlike Dr Who, which was regularly enraging the Mary Whitehouse lobby at > the time.) Gareth once said that the child molesting angle prevented the programme being broadcast in the States for several years. I don't know if he was correct. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #226 **************************************