From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #227 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/227 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 227 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin [B7L] woman and girl Re: [B7L] woman and girl Re: [B7L] Scriptwriters Re: [B7L] Scriptwriters Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin Re: [B7L] woman and girl Fwd: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? (was Re: Avon & Vila) [B7L] Just culled from Ceefax Cleaned-up version: Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? (was Re: Avon & Vila) [B7L] Mountain Media Con Re: [B7L] woman and girl Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? (was Re: Avon & Vila) Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin [B7L] Return of the Avon/Soolin debate [B7L] Good news! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:36:38 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin Message-ID: <000201bed467$7a0328e0$63428cd4@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat wrote: >Dayna, who is at least 18, (more like 20) is a young woman. >Would you call an 18-24-year-old male a young boy? Probably not, but that wouldn't necessarily stop him behaving like one. >Terminology is a powerful tool used in the infantilization and >sujugation of women. >Please don't take it lightly. >OK! Grammar lecture is over. But what about adult women referring to each other as girls? Just as adult men refer to each other as boys. Any man aged 60 upwards can be termed an 'old boy', and not necessarily by his peers. This is a complicated area, related not so much to the use of words in themselves as to the implication of power relationships through the choice of words used. This can get quite amusing, as when my supervisor calls me 'son' even though he's nearly ten years younger than I am. Admittedly he's also nearly ten times bigger than me. Having said all that, I'm broadly with Pat on this issue. Except it's not grammar, it's whatever the word is for how words are used. (Philology? No. Lexicography? Etymology? Damn, damn, what -is- the word? I ought to know this...) Neil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:24:40 +0100 From: "Alison Page" To: "B7 List" Subject: [B7L] woman and girl Message-ID: <000e01bed468$44f448e0$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mistral said - >Infantilization and subjugation, however, is another one of those >perceptual things; I don't view myself as either, and so I am >unlikely to object to being called a girl unless the person is >being deliberately condescending, the more so if she's female. A couple of decades ago it would be the rule in many commercial organisations that young lads in their twenties referred to women colleagues who were older than them as 'girls', and the 'girls' were expected to go along with it. This name-calling was also associated with condescending and frankly bloody irritating attitudes - anyway, enough said. I suspect that if any of the women (no - scratch that - people) on this list went back to those days we would be startled and rather disgusted at it. Even those of us who lived through it: you forget what it was like. It's because women were prepared to make a fuss about it that it became rare, and because it is now rare some women can say 'Oh, it doesn't bother me' - it doesn't bother you precisely because women who went before you made a fuss, and were prepared to be ridiculed for that stance. And (the vast majority of) men, to their credit, listened to the women and changed. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:55:08 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] woman and girl Message-ID: <37975AFC.939DF0E6@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison Page wrote: > A couple of decades ago it would be the rule in many commercial > organisations that young lads in their twenties referred to women colleagues > who were older than them as 'girls', and the 'girls' were expected to go > along with it. This name-calling was also associated with condescending > and frankly bloody irritating attitudes - anyway, enough said. > > I suspect that if any of the women (no - scratch that - people) on this list > went back to those days we would be startled and rather disgusted at it. > Even those of us who lived through it: you forget what it was like. > > It's because women were prepared to make a fuss about it that it became > rare, and because it is now rare some women can say 'Oh, it doesn't bother > me' - it doesn't bother you precisely because women who went before you made > a fuss, and were prepared to be ridiculed for that stance. And (the vast > majority of) men, to their credit, listened to the women and changed. I'm sorry, Alison, but you are egregiously mistaken about what bothers me or why. I lived through it as well; and I'm also painfully aware that men still patronise women every day. I did say I think it's relative; I think being fifteen or twenty years older than someone qualifies you to think of them as young, relatively speaking. Using a diminutive to someone older than you is an entirely different matter. It's no point in comparing them. And equals can sort things out between themselves. I happen to think it's disrespectful when bank clerks, doctors, telephone solicitors, etc., call me by my first name without permission; but I don't get all bent out of shape and lecture them on rudeness, either. Mistral -- "It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo." --the third Doctor ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:03:41 EDT From: Tigerm1019@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Scriptwriters Message-ID: <9c0bd677.24c8b6fd@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/22/99 10:11:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk writes: > Gareth once said that the child molesting angle prevented the programme being > broadcast in the States for several years. I don't know if he was correct. Given how conservative most of the U.S. is, it wouldn't surprise me at all. B7 wasn't broadcast on WILL (Champaign-Urbana, IL) until 1987 or so. Lucky people in the Chcago area got to see it a couple of years earlier. Tiger M ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:25:27 -0500 (CDT) From: hill susan a To: blakes 7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Scriptwriters Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 22 Jul 1999 Tigerm1019@aol.com wrote: > > Given how conservative most of the U.S. is, it wouldn't surprise me at all. > B7 wasn't broadcast on WILL (Champaign-Urbana, IL) until 1987 or so. Lucky > people in the Chcago area got to see it a couple of years earlier. > Actually it was 1989 for WILL. I know, I can remember viewing the episode with Tyce on New Year's Eve, 1989. I spent a good part of 1990 trying to track down the earlier episodes that I had missed. Susan Adair ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 19:26:24 +0100 From: "Alison Page" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin Message-ID: <001001bed46f$ce583c20$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Except it's not grammar, it's whatever the word is for how words are used. >(Philology? No. Lexicography? Etymology? Damn, damn, what -is- the word? >I ought to know this...) > >Neil Semantics? Alison ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 19:40:54 +0100 From: "Alison Page" To: "B7 List" Subject: Re: [B7L] woman and girl Message-ID: <001901bed471$f78da240$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I'm sorry, Alison, but you are egregiously mistaken about >what bothers me or why. I lived through it as well; and I'm >also painfully aware that men still patronise women every >day. Actually, I kind of guessed you were my age (ish). So it comes down to this - something either bothers you (I mean generic 'you') or it doesn't. And if it does bother you, you either do something about it or not. I guess it's a matter of taste. I guess my taste is to make a fuss when things bother me. If I can be bothered that is :-) But, wrenching the subject back to B7, I actually might refer to Dayna as a 'girl' and mean it condescendingly (well.. a bit patronisingly at least). because I think she is very young and foolish. But then it's precisely because the word has that kind of force that I wince to hear it applied to a nurse, or a scientist or whatever. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:44:37 EDT From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Fwd: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? (was Re: Avon & Vila) Message-ID: <55ca25e5.24c8c095@aol.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_55ca25e5.24c8c095_boundary" --part1_55ca25e5.24c8c095_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wrote this post at work, forwarded to me home, and now am forwarding it to the lyst. I hope this works. Gail --part1_55ca25e5.24c8c095_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from aol.com (rly-za02.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.98]) by air-za02.mail.aol.com (v60.18) with ESMTP; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:54:04 -0400 Received: from stfrancis.edu ([206.54.235.17]) by rly-za02.mx.aol.com (v60.18) with ESMTP; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:53:35 -0400 Received: from USFnet-Message_Server by stfrancis.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:52:19 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:51:47 -0500 From: "Gail Gawlik" To: Subject: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? (was Re: Avon & Vila) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Goodness, gracious!!! My summaries were only meant to make my post read mor= e smoothly through all of my snips. Instead, they seem to have created more = misunderstandings!!! I shall have to be more careful when I summarize. Sti= ll, the summaries suggest that I am STILL not understanding your posts, at l= east not completely. For an INFP, understanding is very important, and reac= hing a concensus suggests a "meeting of minds." Although it's okay to agree = to disagree, it is much less satisfying to the NF. Still, I hope all of you = INTs will stick with me while I work through this. (Now, now, I am not just = being fuzzy here, but just think differently.)=20 When I said: > Mistral came up with this interesting idea to back up her view that Avon's > money-grubbing was the result of a deep insecurity (have I got that right, > Mistral?) rather than my contention that it was a convenient way to keep > people at bay: She replied: Hmm... I guess that depends on whether you think of a strong desire to control your own destiny and avoid being controlled by others as insecurity. I certainly don't; I think of that as independence, self-reliance, and a little distrust of others' intent and ability to look out for you as well as you'd look out for yourself. An individualist sort of philosophy. It *does*, in fact, often appear a little paranoid to people who are more connection oriented. No, no, no, I don't have any problem with the individualist. They are very = necessary to make the world go around, IMHO. When I mentioned *deep insecur= ity*, I was thinking more of your remark that Avon was a control-freak. I h= appen to live with a control-freak and know that this trait can cause a lot = of grief for all concerned, especially those being controlled. And I don't = see Avon as a control freak, although he is a very organized and exacting pe= rson which is not the same thing. Mistral says: You'll never get 'em to agree... I'll just say that some of the bits I find puzzling if you say INTJ fall *wham* into place when you say INTP faking INTJ. Interesting. But I thought the P rating suggested a certain amount of disor= ganization, and Avon never seemed anything to me but organized. Am I off on = this? When I try to summarize further, saying: > Furthermore, as a compensation-device, Mistral feels that Avon is a > control-freak and adds: Mistral replies: =20 Actually, INFPs want to know it all also, including the emotional stuff! Bu= t I always double check my feelings against the facts to make sure I am on t= he right track. (I don't know if this is common with other INFPs or not.) Then talking about Blake/Avon, I said: > The independent INT would certainly have a hard time with this. But I don= 't > see how that makes Avon a control-freak. Indeed, if he were a control-fre= ak, > I don't think he could have stayed with Blake who was nearly as controllin= g > as the society he was fighting against. And Mistral replied: But here I still disagree < :( > Mistral says: Mistral says: But the relating Avon has been very > hurt by past experiences and works very hard at portraying a hard-nosed, > I-don't-need-anyone facade. Indeed, I know plenty of people who do great = at > work but have no real personal life at home. She replies : When I said: > Well, I don't think making someone fight in a war through the draft is the > same thing as trying to throw them out of an airlock. At least as a soldi= er, > you have a chance to live and you are defending your country, so it's for = a > greater good. (Ooooh, I think I'm sounding like Blake here!) Mistral's evil twin responded: Yes you are, you fluffy bunny Idealist groupist, you!! ;-) Dang, I have tried to be more rational, less idealistic, and just can't do i= t. Must be that INFP thing. Gail -- "It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo." --the third Doctor I love the Doctor, all of him! --part1_55ca25e5.24c8c095_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 20:55:40 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: "lysator" , "Space City" Subject: [B7L] Just culled from Ceefax Message-ID: <000701bed47c$3f9894f0$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ceefax p.566 Apparently, Equity have just agreed to reduce the amount paid in residuals for a whole pile of BBC dramas, which means that the BBC will now find it cheap enough to start repeating things. Three shows were mentioned in particular as being 'treasures' from the archives: Poldark, Lovejoy and - you guessed it - B7. So even less reason to leave the house during the day. Anyone for decent off-air copies? Una http://www.q-research.connectfree.co.uk/personal/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 19:33:44 EDT From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Cleaned-up version: Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? (was Re: Avon & Vila) Message-ID: <6bccc2f8.24c90458@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is the same post, redone in a more readable form, I hope. Sorry for the inconvenience! Goodness, gracious!!! My summaries were only meant to make my post read more smoothly through all of my snips. Instead, they seem to have created more misunderstandings!!! I shall have to be more careful when I summarize. Still, the summaries suggest that I am STILL not understanding your posts, at least not completely. For an INFP, understanding is very important, and reaching a consensus suggests a "meeting of minds." Although it's okay to agree to disagree, it is much less satisfying to the NF. Still, I hope all of you INTs will stick with me while I work through this. (Now, now, I am not just being fuzzy here, but just think differently.) When I said: > Mistral came up with this interesting idea to back up her view that Avon's > money-grubbing was the result of a deep insecurity (have I got that right, > Mistral?) rather than my contention that it was a convenient way to keep > people at bay: She replied: Hmm... I guess that depends on whether you think of a strong desire to control your own destiny and avoid being controlled by others as insecurity. I certainly don't; I think of that as independence, self-reliance, and a little distrust of others' intent and ability to look out for you as well as you'd look out for yourself. An individualist sort of philosophy. It *does*, in fact, often appear a little paranoid to people who are more connection oriented. No, no, no, I don't have any problem with the individualist. They are very necessary to make the world go around, IMHO. When I mentioned *deep insecurity*, I was thinking more of your remark that Avon was a control-freak. I happen to live with a control-freak and know that this trait can cause a lot of grief for all concerned, especially those being controlled. And I don't see Avon as a control freak, although he is a very organized and exacting person which is not the same thing. Mistral says: You'll never get 'em to agree... I'll just say that some of the bits I find puzzling if you say INTJ fall *wham* into place when you say INTP faking INTJ. Interesting. But I thought the P rating suggested a certain amount of disorganization, and Avon never seemed anything to me but organized. Am I off on this? When I try to summarize further, saying: > Furthermore, as a compensation-device, Mistral feels that Avon is a > control-freak and adds: Mistral replies: Actually, INFPs want to know it all also, including the emotional stuff! But I always double check my feelings against the facts to make sure I am on the right track. (I don't know if this is common with other INFPs or not.) Then talking about Blake/Avon, I said: > The independent INT would certainly have a hard time with this. But I don't > see how that makes Avon a control-freak. Indeed, if he were a control-freak, > I don't think he could have stayed with Blake who was nearly as controlling > as the society he was fighting against. And Mistral replied: But here I still disagree < :( > Mistral says: Mistral says: But the relating Avon has been very > hurt by past experiences and works very hard at portraying a hard-nosed, > I-don't-need-anyone facade. Indeed, I know plenty of people who do great at > work but have no real personal life at home. She replies : When I said: > Well, I don't think making someone fight in a war through the draft is the > same thing as trying to throw them out of an airlock. At least as a soldier, > you have a chance to live and you are defending your country, so it's for a > greater good. (Ooooh, I think I'm sounding like Blake here!) Mistral's evil twin responded: Yes you are, you fluffy bunny Idealist groupist, you!! ;-) Dang, I have tried to be more rational, less idealistic, and just can't do it. Must be that INFP thing. Gail -- "It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo." --the third Doctor I love the Doctor, all of him! - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:32:31 EDT From: Pherber@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se (lysator), space-city@world.std.com (Space City) Subject: [B7L] Mountain Media Con Message-ID: <2f71de7.24c9202f@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is anyone here going to be in Denver this weekend for Mountain Media Con? I'm going to check it out for at least one day -- it would be really cool to actually meet some of you! Nina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 20:20:20 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] woman and girl Message-ID: <3797DF73.6ED23C3@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison Page wrote: > But, wrenching the subject back to B7, I actually might refer to Dayna as a > 'girl' and mean it condescendingly (well.. a bit patronisingly at least). > because I think she is very young and foolish. But then it's precisely > because the word has that kind of force that I wince to hear it applied to a > nurse, or a scientist or whatever. Can't find anything to disagree with there. Pity. ;-) Mistral -- "It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo." --the third Doctor ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:11:24 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? (was Re: Avon & Vila) Message-ID: <3797EB69.A253FBD1@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gail wrote: > For an INFP, understanding is very important, and > reaching a consensus suggests a "meeting of minds." Although it's okay to > agree to disagree, it is much less satisfying to the NF. Ooh, yeah, me too. I like to find *some* point of agreement-- one of the reasons I go on so. Re control (as in self-determination): > No, no, no, I don't have any problem with the individualist. They are very > necessary to make the world go around, IMHO. When I mentioned *deep > insecurity*, I was thinking more of your remark that Avon was a > control-freak. I happen to live with a control-freak and know that this > trait can cause a lot > of grief for all concerned, especially those being controlled. And I don't > see Avon as a control freak, although he is a very organized and exacting > person which is not the same thing. Sorry, I did wonder if you'd find the term confusing. What I mean to say is he needs to control *himself*, and his destiny, and that sometimes has to extend to controlling the environment. Controlling other people wouldn't interest him much; as long as he can keep them from controlling or emotionally invading him. (Well, um, okay, sometimes we do it for fun, just to prove we can.) On Referee/Adult Leah trying to confiscate the game ball ;-) > Yes, I'll agree that greed is a false solution, both as a form of security > and as a way to keep others at bay, an INTP trait as you have pointed out. > As Leah pointed out, we are probably both right, there being an element of > real greed in Avon and his using it to keep others away. consensus here!> For the sake of consensus I'll agree that he generally exaggerates his worst qualities in order to push others away. I haven't noticed it with the greed, except in Trial, maybe. On P/J traits: > Interesting. But I thought the P rating suggested a certain amount of > disorganization, and Avon never seemed anything to me but organized. Am I > off on this? Not off on it being a P trait, no, but you don't have to have all the traits for your end of the scale. It's a continuum, not an on-off switch. (Just because you're an F, doesn't mean you can't think!) Just based on the 7 or 8 INTPs I'm acquainted with, my guess is it's pretty common for us to work hard at having more J characteristics, as otherwise we find it very difficult to function in the day-to-day world. Organization seems to be one of the ones we work hardest at, that and decision-making. Re Big Brother Blake: > But here I still disagree < :( > Mistral says: > did by the nameless, faceless institutions of Fed society; he > could argue with Blake. From Duel: > Blake: Does that mean you agree? > Avon: Do I have a choice? > Blake: Yes. > Avon: Then I agree. > Pre-Blake, his voice wasn't heard. With Blake, it was, even > if not always heeded. He probably spent a lot of time hoping > that Blake would learn to pay attention to him; and a lot more > time laughing at himself for bothering to entertain such a > daft hope. > > Well, I think they all felt controlled by the Federation, sort of the norm > for that society. And I can see that this would be worse for some types, > such as Avon's individualist type. But I think Avon's main conflict was his > attraction to Blake. Blake was extremely magnetic and had a conviction for > SOMETHING, it didn't matter to Avon what it was, that Avon lacked. This > attraction wasn't something that Avon had analyzed and chosen, so it probably > bothered him even more. And no matter how often he threatened to leave, he > found himself bound to the crew, but to Blake especially. This must have > been galling for the very proud, individualistic INT. I'll agree with you he was conflicted about Blake; but what I meant is, Blake gave Avon some input, at least, whereas in Federation, Avon would have felt a cipher. *Some* control is better than *no* control; and he was probably fooling himself he had more control than he actually did, and a chance of getting even more. Within Federation society, however, he'd already hit the point where he felt he had to break free, hence his turning to crime. On excuses for friendship: > < One of the reasons Blake made the cut is because he pushed back, just as > hard, and he didn't give up-- but his appeal wasn't emotional, it was > practical. (INTPs like to have a practical excuse for emotions.) > > Hmmm, interesting. What was Blake's personality type? The INFP doesn't give > up easily, either. My read on Avon was that there WAS an emotional appeal > that he didn't want to recognize and that bugged the heck out of him. But he > would certainly have a plethora of rational excuses to explain it away. Blake's usually thought of as ENFJ or ENTJ. IMHO, definitely ENFJ. Yes, there was an emotional appeal tugging at Avon; what I mean is that Blake's *approach* wasn't emotional. Respect for the INTP mind is nearly guaranteed to strike at the INTP heart. Blake was not afraid to argue his opinions, but also made it clear he valued Avon's opinions. That's a very powerful combination, that. On obsession: > Mistral says about greed & Avon: > > No, I can't see this. Webster says greed is *excessive or reprehensible > acquisitiveness* and how can you achieve this is you are not obsessed with > money? It's not the definition of greed that's messing us up, it's the definition of obsession. Obsession means it's achieved a degree of importance that it blocks out pretty much all else; I might let you get away with calling him obsessed with Blake, but that's the only thing; and I don't think I'd agree there. > I love the Doctor, all of him! Partial to the fifth Doctor, myself. ========================== Mistral -- "It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo." --the third Doctor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 09:05:16 -0600 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin Message-ID: <19990518.090518.9958.0.Rilliara@juno.com> On Thu, 22 Jul 1999 04:27:52 -0700 mistral@ptinet.net writes: >In the ongoing A/Soo battle, er, debate, er, opinion sharing, >Mistral and Ellynne (chronologically) spake thusly: Having said that, though, >the necessities of her life had made her extremely cold. We're >never told (that I recall) at what point she took up with her >family's killers, but all the scenarios I can think of that place >her close enough to them to learn gunslinging from them and >then kill them are pretty horrific. I know what you mean. I always thought she was picked up directly by her family's killers, sort of the way Cassandra was picked up by Methos in Highlander. They came and killed her family. Soolin, possibly out in the barn when the bloodbath started, had time to grab a weapon she didn't really know how to use and attack a minute or so after the main events were over and the killers were not quite trigger-happy. One of them disarmed her quickly and, half amused at what she'd done, decided to keep her (he didn't strike me as the overly sober or intelligent type, just a good shot). Soolin was a name the gang gave her (when I first heard it on the show, her name sounded Chinese [specifically, if sounded like the name of a friend from China] and I kept waiting for an explanation for how her outlander blondeness got it). She either gave a good impression of being a broken prisoner or went through a phase while waiting for a better chance to get them. Ellynne ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:21:50 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin Message-ID: <379809FE.3121C093@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ellynne G. wrote: > I know what you mean. I always thought she was picked up directly by her > family's killers, sort of the way Cassandra was picked up by Methos in > Highlander. They came and killed her family. Soolin, possibly out in > the barn when the bloodbath started, had time to grab a weapon she didn't > really know how to use and attack a minute or so after the main events > were over and the killers were not quite trigger-happy. One of them > disarmed her quickly and, half amused at what she'd done, decided to keep > her (he didn't strike me as the overly sober or intelligent type, just a > good shot). Soolin was a name the gang gave her (when I first heard it > on the show, her name sounded Chinese [specifically, if sounded like the > name of a friend from China] and I kept waiting for an explanation for > how her outlander blondeness got it). She either gave a good impression > of being a broken prisoner or went through a phase while waiting for a > better chance to get them. This is a lot like my impression, that she wound up with them immediately; but I also had the impression that she was only a child, maybe eight; old enough to be aware of the horror, but not old enough to fight back. That would seem to be an extremely traumatic experience. Brutal doesn't half say it. And then she had to pretend to be amenable, enough a part of their group to learn gunfighting. Perhaps they were just teaching a child, for amusement? Or perhaps as she got older they believed she had really become part of the gang; or maybe one of them had a wife and kids somewhere and 'adopted' her? How this relates to my reading of her relationship with Dorian is that, pretty as she is, I can't see a bunch of men who wouldn't scruple at mass-murder and kidnapping, leaving her untouched as she matured. She might easily not associate sex with love or caring at all; at best, perhaps, she'd see it as pleasure, or a commodity, as she certainly couldn't be unaware of her own attractiveness. For this reason, I don't find the idea of a physical relationship as part of a business arrangement unworkable at all. Scorpio crew could easily be the warmest environment she'd been in since her family died (horrible thought!) And probably equally the best pool of potential mates. The bigger question then is probably how did she develop and retain the very real sensitivity and compassion that she displays in the second half of the series? Can it be possible that Scorpio crew brought out things that lay dormant from childhood? Or were there other friends or acquaintances along the way who nurtured the better parts of Soolin? She's *remarkably* functional, considering any background I could reasonably see, IMHO. As to her name, Sue Lynn is also common in the US, and isn't AFAIK particular to any ethnic group. Speculatively, Mistral -- "It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo." --the third Doctor ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 02:33:03 PDT From: "Rob Clother" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Return of the Avon/Soolin debate Message-ID: <19990723093307.11766.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Now that there's precious little work to be done in this office, I've got time to return to this thread. Having an argument with me takes rather a lot of patience! Mistral, Re Avon going to GP and springing it on Soolin, out of the blue: >Even assuming that he knew she was from GP, which is never >explicitly >stated... I'd rather based my point on that assumption. I thought it was stated, or at least hinted at, but my VCR's up the duff at the moment, so I'll take your word for it. Anyway, for the moment, let's assume he did know, because I don't really have a point otherwise... >A thinker would not want their or anyone else's personal feelings >brought >into the work environment; you keep them separate. For him >to warn her >would be patronising; it would imply that she was >unprofessional... >Avon would expect Soolin to cope; as she would >expect him to if she were in charge. Can't really see her >going to Avon in private and saying 'just thought I'd let you >know that we're going to Earth because you killed your >girlfriend there and might need some time to adjust first.' There's more than one way to skin a cat, though. How about consulting her in private beforehand? Saying something like, "Soolin, what can you tell me about Gauda Prime?" That's not being rude or condescending, or even unprofessional -- but it is saving her the embarassment of discovering Avon's plan in front of the rest of the crew. And she *was* visibly upset by the revelation. Otherwise she wouldn't have threatened Vila over his choice of semantics, and she wouldn't have allowed Dayna to get physically close to her. Both acts were out of character. For someone as professional as Soolin, being visibly hurt in front of colleagues whose respect you've worked hard to earn adds insult to injury. She was not pleased with Avon. On to something else: >Avon can certainly be brutal. Then again, so can Soolin. >They're both very pragmatic. However, your original comment >was that he lacked the subtlety and sophistication to understand >Soolin. I don't think it would require a great deal, as they're so >much alike. For every similarity you come up with, I bet I can come up with a deeper dissimilarity. It might take me a few weeks, though! :-) >Soolin's got both the mindset to understand and appreciate Avon's >strengths and the compassion to forgive his weaknesses. In all >honesty, I can't think of another female character in the series >that has both. Just IMHO. Avon is one of these people whose (It chokes me to use this word to describe one of my least favourite characters) *charm* overrides people's better judgement. On the first viewing of Series 3, it's easy to say, "Tarrant, what a bastard", and excuse Avon for worse behaviour. Because Soolin is (as you correctly pointed out) so pragmatic, and because she has the ability to see through people, she'll see Avon's weaknesses more clearly than others. And she'll find them less easy to forgive. >Er, addendum to that. Soolin is perhaps the only one who >wouldn't see as weaknesses some of the qualities in Avon >that he himself thinks of as strengths. Also IMHO. For Soolin, read Servalan. Then I'll agree with you. Of course, I remain completely unbiased in all of this. The fact that I want to have Soolin's babies, and can't stand Avon's guts, hasn't affected my point of view at all. No, never. -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:33:45 +0100 From: "David A McIntee" To: Subject: [B7L] Good news! Message-Id: <199907231050.LAA00258@gnasher.sol.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >From today's Times: "SOME of the finest moments of vintage television drama will soon be returning to the small screen, thanks to a deal signed yesterday. Classics that include the science fiction series *Blake's 7*, Lovejoy, Howards Way, Poldark and Bergerac are about to enjoy a rerun on the BBC after the actor's union, Equity, agreed to take lower payments for repeat performances. The corporation has been unable to show some of its most popular series because it could not afford the repeat fees. ... The old favourites will replace American classics such as Ironside and UFO at off-peak periods in the afternoons and at weekends. The new deal will apply to BBC1 from 10am to noon on Sundays, and on weekday afternoons from 2pm to 3pm. On BBC2, the reduced rate will come into effect on Saturdays from 4pm to 5pm. The agreement should mean payments of up to £2million for actors in a full year..." The Stage adds All Creatures to the list of repeats due as well. -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #227 **************************************