From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #25 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/25 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 25 Today's Topics: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #21 Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas [B7L] R. Holmes script themes Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas [B7L] About time we had another drink [B7L] Paranoia [B7L] B7 items for sale Re: [B7L] Paranoia Re: [B7L] Paranoia Re: [B7L] Vila's favorite singer RE: [B7L] Vila and Deltas [B7L] Off Topic, but so Damn cool! [B7L] Re: SC: Off Topic, but so Damn cool! Re: [B7L] Free time again [B7L] Re: Vila and Deltas Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas Re: [B7L] Paranoia Re: [B7L] Paranoia Working for a Living (was Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas) Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas Re: [B7L] Re: Vila and Deltas Re: [B7L] Paranoia Re: Working for a Living (was Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas) Re: [B7L] Paranoia Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas Re: [B7L] R. Holmes script themes Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? Re: [B7L] Paranoia [B7L] Trolls, Sex, and Metalogic RE: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:42:04 +0100 (MET) From: "Dangermouse" To: Subject: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #21 Message-Id: <199901111140.LAA23651@gnasher.sol.co.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 What the hell? Suddenly I get *11* extra mails, all of which seem to be simply entire columes quoted by Dita Stanistraken, with only a signature new at the bottom! What the fuck is going on? - it took several minutes of valuable phone time to download this crap ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:49:21 +0100 (MET) From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas Message-ID: <006f01be3d80$cda7ff80$7b17ac3e@default> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >Neil, why do you feel that Vila wasn't really a Delta? > >This is a very popular idea in fan fiction, but it's always bothered me a >bit, because it seems to me that that view acepts the Federation grading >system as having some sort of validity. That is, Deltas really =are= stupid- >- and therefore clever Vila can't possibly be one. I feel uncomfortable >with that idea. There is a common RW assumption that working class people are somehow thicker than middle class people (the upper classes having no need for intelligence anyway). So why shouldn't this be the case with the Federation? In other words, who says grade really is a measure of intelligence? More likely related to boring old economic status - someone has to be poor, after all. (FWIW in my own subcanon, grade is based on genetic purity.) Getting into really boring territory, what do Federation citizens do for a living? Would the advance of technology leave any work for the working classes? What about welfare? Would even the Federation liquidate millions of unemployed to limit public spending? I personally see the Deltas as living in a lawless shadow economy, fenced off from 'decent' society like the South American barrios. Or is it the 'nice' people who are fenced in? Lots of cyberpunky potential there. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:54:09 +0100 (MET) From: jcarr@netcom.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] R. Holmes script themes Message-Id: <199901111849.KAA10850@netcom9.netcom.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Iain Coleman wrote: > Here are a few random counterarguments to the charge that Robert Holmes > was homophobic. > > Firstly, it's really only based on one data point, and a shaky one at > that. Egrorian isn't gay, he's a dirty old sleaze who'll shag anything > above room temperature. Any gay element to Tynus is questionable, and > certainly in the performance rather than the script. This leaves only the > Krantor/Toise couple. The whole of "Gambit" oozes a shabby, sordid > campness, and they fit right into that. > > Also, we're looking at a small number of scripts here. Holmes wrote loads > of Dr Who stories, and was script editor for even more. In all those > stories that I've seen I can't think of a single example of negativity > towards homosexuals. You'd think, if he had such a bee in his bonnet, it > would have expressed itself in DW as well. I remember reading somewhere that Robert Holmes was a vegetarian (please correct me if I am wrong), and that was the inspiration for his Doctor Who story The Two Doctors. In it, the character of Shockeye seems to be a definate comment on meat-eaters, as presented by the script and well-acted by John Stratton. While I don't think this was a bee in his bonnet, it clearly stands out in this story, but I don't think it is evident in any others. I think if Holmes was homophobic, he would have made it more noticable in the script. Joey ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 03:24:44 PST From: "Rob Clother" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas Message-ID: <19990112112444.2626.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain >Speaking of entertainment: today's futurist books often say that >creating entertainment will be one of the major growth industries of >the next century. But where in the Federation are the video games and >virtual reality adventures we expect to have soon? There was a dome bureaucrat enjoying some kind of virtual reality device in "The Way Back" -- and we see Gan partaking at other times in the series. VR was like the upper echelons of Federation power. It was there alright -- but we only ever saw hints of it. -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:30:24 +0100 From: Steve Rogerson To: Lysator , Space City Subject: [B7L] About time we had another drink Message-ID: <369A898E.63C011C1@mcr1.poptel.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It has been a while since we had one of our regular drinks at Pages Bar in London, so I am proposing Saturday 30 January. Pages has a sci-fi night on Saturdays. It is near Westminster and Victoria (I'll post more detailed directions nearer the time). Myself and Steve Kilbane are up for it. Let me know who else fancies it. I'll post regular reminders between now and then. -- cheers Steve Rogerson Redemption 99: The Blakes 7 and Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Ashford, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ "Get in there you big furry oaf, I don't care what you smell" Star Wars ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:21:46 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: [B7L] Paranoia Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Sun 10 Jan, Julia Jones wrote: > As for what happens when the entire society is kept high on happy pills > - just ask your friendly local Paranoia GM. Calle, Deborah, we really > must find time at Redemption... If you want an official timeslot in the programme. Steve is laying out the programme even as we speak. We've worked out most of it now, but there's several places where we can easily slot in an extra event. If anyone wants to run a game, host an extra debate or perform a demonstration of Eutrusacan nose flutes, just drop us a line. But do it quickly, because it's a lot harder to add things once it's been printed. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 08:47:00 EST From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se, space-city@world.std.com Subject: [B7L] B7 items for sale Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Emily McEwan (now Emily McEwan-Fujita) is selling off a small collection of B7 & other photos, buttons, t-shirts, etc. at very low prices. She's got a webpage with photos and descriptions: http://anthro.spc.uchicago.edu/~ecmcewan/b7forsale.html Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 1999 15:49:09 +0100 From: Calle Dybedahl To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] Paranoia Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Judith Proctor writes: > If you want an official timeslot in the programme. I'll gladly run a noia game, but I'd rather not have it on the programme. That would make it feel awfully official and stuff. -- Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se Truth is stranger than fiction, because fiction has to make sense. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:40:47 EST From: AChevron@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Paranoia Message-ID: <13ec93a8.369b6cff@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit If Julia would run a session, this would be terrific. D. Rose ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:15:50 -0600 From: "Lorna B." To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila's favorite singer Message-Id: <199901121610.KAA12866@pemberton.magnolia.net> Carolyn said: >Who else? Tom Waits! "Makin' the scene with a magazine..." (my personal favorite) Lorna B. "Cookies and porn? You're the best mom ever!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:37:33 +-100 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: "blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: RE: [B7L] Vila and Deltas Message-ID: <01BE3E52.3FB32CE0@nl-arn-lap0063> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Neil Faulkner wrote: >> Getting into really boring territory, what do Federation citizens do for a >> living? Would the advance of technology leave any work for the working >> classes? And Pat P answered: >I always laugh when I see the "miners" breaking rocks >with pick axes in Blakes 7 and other "future" shows (like the Deep >Space 9 mirror universe, where the humans are made to work in the >mines). This is akin to having humans smelt horseshoes over charcoal >fires. That sort of primitive work would be considered ludicrous in light >of current techno capabilities. If technology had to be transported over large distances, human labor might actually be cheaper than machines. The Federation certainly wouldn't care about what would be best for the workers. Jacqueline Thijsen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:47:56 -0600 From: Reuben Herfindahl To: "'space-city@world.std.com'" Cc: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" Subject: [B7L] Off Topic, but so Damn cool! Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain This was recently posted up on rec.arts.drwho and confirmed by Steve Roberts at the BBC. For any Who fans on the list, this should make them VERY happy! ---------- > From: Paul Scoones > > Subject: Missing Episode found in NZ!! > Date: Tuesday, 12 January 1999 09:09 > PRESS RELEASE: > > THE CRUSADE EPISODE 1 FOUND - IN NEW ZEALAND! > by Paul Scoones > > After a thirty-year absence from the BBC, a William Hartnell Doctor Who > episode has been found in New Zealand. The Lion - the first episode of The > Crusade - was wiped by the BBC in January 1969. In January this year a 16mm > film print was discovered in Auckland, New Zealand, and returned to the BBC. > > The complete film print was bought at a film collectors' fair in Napier, New > Zealand in June 1998. It was purchased by Auckland film collector Bruce > Grenville from another collector who was unaware of its rarity and sold it > to Bruce cheaply as an "an incomplete Doctor Who story". > > Bruce was equally unaware that the episode had any special significance, and > regularly screened it for his friends. One such friend, Cornelius Stone, > mentioned to Neil Lambess, a member of the New Zealand Doctor Who Fan Club, > that he'd seen the film of "a Hartnell historical episode set in the time of > the crusades". > > Neil learned that the episode was apparently The Lion, and following up on > this lead, he and Paul Scoones, the NZDWFC's coordinator, visited Bruce on 3 > January and viewed the film to verify that it was in fact the long lost > first episode of The Crusade. > > Bruce was surprised to learn of the rarity of his film print, and readily > agreed to loan it to the BBC's unofficial Doctor Who 'Restoration Team' so > that the film can now be cleaned up and a duplicate made. Paul Scoones > contacted Steve Roberts of the 'Restoration Team' and handled the safe > dispatch of the film to the UK. > > The Lion joins The Wheel of Fortune (episode 3) as the only other episode of > this highly-regarded 1965 four-part historical adventure known to exist. > > Although many film clips have been unearthed in recent years, the last > discovery of complete lost Doctor Who episodes was seven years ago when The > Tomb of the Cybermen was recovered from Hong Kong in 1992. > > Although neither the film or its can provide any clues to the route by which > it came to be on sale at a film collectors' event in Napier, it is likely > that the print was received by the New Zealand Broadcasting Corporation from > the BBC around late 1967. Although NZBC records show that the New Zealand > censor rated the story suitable for broadcast, it remains one of several > sixties stories that were received by the NZBC but never screened. > > The Lion is the only lost Doctor Who episode found in New Zealand. Although > Bruce Grenville (who is a regular visitor to film collectors' fairs in NZ), > says he has not yet come across any other Doctor Who film prints, this find > raises renewed hope that further lost episodes may still exist, just waiting > to be rediscovered. > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:02:20 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Baskerville To: space-city@world.std.com Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: SC: Off Topic, but so Damn cool! Message-Id: <5461.9901121802@mcchpd.mcc.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reuben Herfindahl wrote: > Subject: SC: Off Topic, but so Damn cool! > > THE CRUSADE EPISODE 1 FOUND - IN NEW ZEALAND! > > by Paul Scoones Not *totally* offtopic - Julian Glover (Kayn, the surgeon in Breakdown) plays Richard the Lionheart in "The Crusade".... :-) (Sad trivia factette supplied by Gary - I don't know my "Who" anywhere near as well. No user servicable parts contained inside this information.) Robert Baskerville ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:19:03 +0000 From: Andrew Spong To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Free time again Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Neil said, several days ago: >Can't we talk about a decent band for a >change? Like >>Motorhead? > >I don't know. Do you think any particular B7 character would >have liked Motorhead? > >Regards >Joanne (who wrote I most certainly do! Bayban the Butcher certainly has that 'Ace of Spades' look about him, don't you think? As far the individual albums go... 'Overkill': Blake - never one to look before leaping, our Roj (ObB7: there's a BMW round here (Rustington, West Sussex, UK) with the personalised numberplate 'B7 ROG' (not sic) which I thought rather fetching (the plate, not the car - bleuch). 'Bomber': Dayna, I s'pose. I don't have the package, but I can imagiine Photoshop-ing the cover and pasting her in... 'Ace of Spades': Vila, I suppose, due to his prediliction for gambling. 'Iron Fist': Servalan (or would she be the velvet glove to Travis' iron fist? No Lacanian symbolism intended ;c) ) 'Another Perfect Day': Poor old Gan, who hadn't the wit to imagine anything else. Apart from the day he bought a one-way ticket to Control, which of course ended rather less than perfectly for him. Individual tracks? 'Jailbait' would have to go out to Veron. 'Stay clean' to the Helotrix resistance -- not a crease out of place, despite all that mud. 'I'll be your sister' I'd dedicate to Lauren, on Dayna's behalf. 'Dead men tell no tales' for Avon, of course. 'Too late, too late' brings Ensor to mind. 'Like a nightmare' for Blake in his traditional 'grimace and place hands over ears' stock-pose. 'Leaving here' must be Jenna's anthem; turn it on at the end of 'Star One' if you like, instead of the closing credits. 'No class' come on Tarrant, take a bow...again -- and you can do a little twirl if you really want to camp it up, before finishing with a flourishing sweep of the arm. In danger of going off topic there - but then is Tarrant-baiting ever off the menu? ;c) and, of course, 'Stone Dead Forever' to most of the cast of 'Blake' After that, who cares? IMHO, Motorhead haven't done anything worth a listen since 1983. I'll have to drop the baton there if somebody else wants to pick it up -- I only get the time to read the digests once in a blue moon, let alone post. Cheers Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:44:51 -0500 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] Re: Vila and Deltas Message-ID: <199901121344_MC2-665B-3950@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit TigerM said: >I could see the Federation very easily liquidating >unemployed or converting them into mutoids to be >used as cannon fodder by Space Command to limit >public spending. In Animals (pause to wonder whether this episode has any serious weight), Justin is developing Og and co to be used in radioactive areas unsuitable for humans. Which could be used either way in the argument - humans are valuable, so shouldn't be wasted unnecessarily if one can find an alternative, or humans are so cheap they can be converted into a more useful alternative. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:05:02 PST From: "Penny Dreadful" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas Message-ID: <19990112210502.10489.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Pat said: >Just as, in the future, it would be silly to show >slaves picking cotton in the fields to spin cloth to make clothing, when >clothing is all rayon and dacron, spun of oil from machines - that also >mine and process that oil. And silly to show peasants cutting wheat with >sythes, when tractors exist. That's how silly it is to have Ro's people >picking away in the mines on Horizon. Slaves have one major advantage over machines: they don't want to die. As individuals, or as genetic lines. They're self-repairing and self-reproducing, and will make full creative use of whatever materials are made available to them, just in order to stay alive. In other words (assuming you buy 'em in bulk) they're cheap, low-maintenance, and suited to an almost infinite variety of niches. >We're often told that the >poor in the USA today, with their tv dinners and color tv's and heated >apartments, live better than kings did in days of yore (eating porridge >with only a sorry fool for entertainment in cold stone halls). But they >feel poor because they're watching Dallas and Falcon Crest on those >color tv's. If that's the lifestyle of the poor in the USA today, then who were those people I saw sleeping on the steps of the Seattle Public Library a few years back? The middle class on an urban camping trip? -- Penny "Pinko" Dreadful ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:24:49 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Paranoia Message-ID: In message <13ec93a8.369b6cff@aol.com>, AChevron@aol.com writes > If Julia would run a session, this would be terrific. D. Rose > Erm, you do realise that A) I last played some ten years ago B) I GM in the true Paranoia style - "Tables? What are they for? Dice? Those are what I ask the players to roll so that I can frighten them out of their wits speculating exactly which way I'm gonna kill them this time..." ie it's a *role*-playing game. The rulebook is ultraviolet clearance, and what are you doing with ultraviolet category information, Friend Citizen? Maybe I should run the introductory scenario from Second Edition (which is what I've got) for newbies, to soften them up before passing them onto Calle for the real thing. -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:19:49 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Paranoia Message-ID: In message , Calle Dybedahl writes >Judith Proctor writes: > >> If you want an official timeslot in the programme. > >I'll gladly run a noia game, but I'd rather not have it on the >programme. That would make it feel awfully official and stuff. Ditto, especially as I'm going to be far too busy with zines to actually help write the B7 scenario we've been muttering about since before Deliverance. -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 08:46:06 +1100 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Working for a Living (was Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas) Message-ID: <19990113084606.09586@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Tue, Jan 12, 1999 at 05:37:33PM +0300, Jacqueline Thijsen wrote: > > Neil Faulkner wrote: > >> Getting into really boring territory, what do Federation citizens do for a > >> living? Would the advance of technology leave any work for the working > >> classes? > > And Pat P answered: > >I always laugh when I see the "miners" breaking rocks > >with pick axes in Blakes 7 and other "future" shows (like the Deep >Space 9 mirror universe, where the humans are made to work in the >mines). This is akin to having humans smelt horseshoes over charcoal >fires. That sort of primitive work would be considered ludicrous in light >of current techno capabilities. > > If technology had to be transported over large distances, human labor > might actually be cheaper than machines. The Federation certainly wouldn't > care about what would be best for the workers. Human beings would be used where they were either more efficient, or cheaper. On Horizon, the cost of transporting equipment would be prohibitive, since Horizon was so far from any civilized planet. On Kairos, I expect that Kairopan was so precious and rare (since it was only able to be harvested for one week every fifteen years) and Kairos was relatively close to civilization, that human workers were deemed to be the most able to harvest it, picking the "suborganic growth" from wherever it grows (probably on the ground, possibly not). Specialized machinery for harvesting Kairopan would be a waste of money, considering it would only be used once every fifteen years. Workers would have to be transported in, not just because of the spider-things, but because a planet with a fifteen-year orbit would have extremes of climate which would make colonizing it out of the question, particularly since one wouldn't dare terraform it for fear of interfering with the ecology which produces Kairopan. They're probably lucky that it's got a breathable atmosphere at all. What other cases are there where human labour was used in Blake's 7 where machines might have been better? I expect that a lot of the workers were employed to support the eternally expanding beaurocracy. Another question is, though, were Delta grades officially taught to read? I'm just thinking of a more modern dictatorship (I forget where, Bangladesh?) where schools have been deliberately closed, in order to bring up a generation who are deliberately ignorant, so that they can be more easily opressed. I can see that working for the Federation, who could consider education a privaledge, not a right. Alphas and Betas could be educated fully, but Deltas could be limited to audio-visual things without writing. Actually, no, that wouldn't work, because they would still have to be able to read signs, because there are so many of them in the Federation. Still, restricted education for the masses still makes sense, from the Federation point of view. Who was it who said, that the masses never rise by themselves, they always need a more highly-educated revolutionary to lead them? Kathryn A. -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat \_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:11:37 PST From: "Penny Dreadful" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas Message-ID: <19990112221138.22626.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain I said: >If that's the lifestyle of the poor in the USA today, then who were >those people I saw sleeping on the steps of the...etc. Which in retrospect reads rather inflammatory -- allow me to append: there's people sleeping on the streets in Canada too. And a middle class who figure that the people on AISH are living in the lap of luxury, while some of us have to work overtime just to keep up the mortgage payments on our beemers 'n' bungalows... There, successfully switched emphasis from anti-Americanism to middle-class-bashing. Hmm. -- Penny "Is It Really Off-Topic, If I Mention Blakes 7 In My Signature?" Dreadful ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:12:04 EST From: AChevron@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Vila and Deltas Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/12/99 1:46:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, 101637.2064@compuserve.com writes: << Which could be used either way in the argument - humans are valuable, so shouldn't be wasted unnecessarily if one can find an alternative, or humans are so cheap they can be converted into a more useful alternative. >> I think it's simply that having your labor source die too quickly makes it uneconomical to utilize a high-radiation world. Thus the interest in radiation-tolerant sentient forms. I expect if "normal" humans could function for say, several months in radiation, then the Federation wouldn't bother. D. Rose ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:14:47 EST From: AChevron@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Paranoia Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/12/99 4:39:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk writes: << A) I last played some ten years ago B) I GM in the true Paranoia style - "Tables? >> Just thought that since you were planning to run it last year, you might this year. But since Calle has stepped forward as a GM, I think we can manage. Even outside of "official" time slots and such. He's right, that wouldn't seem right, especially for this game. D. Rose ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:36:31 EST From: Tigerm1019@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: Working for a Living (was Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas) Message-ID: <1e8e2096.369bce6f@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-01-12 17:08:27 EST, you write: << Another question is, though, were Delta grades officially taught to read? I'm just thinking of a more modern dictatorship (I forget where, Bangladesh?) where schools have been deliberately closed, in order to bring up a generation who are deliberately ignorant, so that they can be more easily opressed. I can see that working for the Federation, who could consider education a privaledge, not a right. Alphas and Betas could be educated fully, but Deltas could be limited to audio-visual things without writing. Actually, no, that wouldn't work, because they would still have to be able to read signs, because there are so many of them in the Federation. Still, restricted education for the masses still makes sense, from the Federation point of view. >> This is very plausible. I got the impression from the series that past a certain point, education *was* considered a privilege, certain disciplines more so than others. the dictatorship you mention sounds like Cambodia, with the Khmer Rouge trying to move the country back into the dark ages. Tiger M ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:25:41 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] Paranoia Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Tue 12 Jan, Calle Dybedahl wrote: > Judith Proctor writes: > > > If you want an official timeslot in the programme. > > I'll gladly run a noia game, but I'd rather not have it on the > programme. That would make it feel awfully official and stuff. But I thought that all added to the atmosphere... The computer is your friend. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:21:13 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas Message-ID: <02ab01be3e86$2b6a9e60$1c1dac3e@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TigerM wrote: >This is very interesting. Genetic purity based on what? Fewer mutations, >inherited disorders, pure human genome, purity of racial type? Have humans >perhaps crossbred with something else at some point? I was thinking of racial purity; white, black, Jewish or whatever being irrelevent (aside: isn't the B7 universe a bit on the caucasian side?). I see the Federation as being very traditionalist, founded on a yearning for a lost (ie; non-existent) historical golden age. Racial miscegenation represents a debasement of humanity. (I imagine most Deltas being of mixed race, a genetic melting pot of unknowable ancestry. Alphas especially have - and value - pedigree status.) Mapping of the human genome is already nearing completion. By Blake's time, a complete genetic profile would be part of everyone's medical record as a matter of routine. Lots of implications there for crime-fighting. (The Clonemasters built Servalan a bevy of Blakes from his genetic profile.) So racial heritage would be fairly easy to determine - the presence or absence of a single gene might be enough to determine an individual's grade. There might well be a black market in false genetic profiles, mainly for the criminal classes, but social climbers might also find a use for them. Since this would entail altering medical records, computer criminals like Avon would be in ready demand. >I did get the feeling that there might be large numbers of unskilled, >unemployed people in the domes (maybe I've read too much Judge Dredd). You can't read too much Judge Dredd. Fantasy elements aside, it's one of the best visions of the future I've seen. Too disturbingly believable for comfort (especially when Carlos Ezquerra slaps on the watercolour). >I could see the Federation very easily liquidating >unemployed or converting them into mutoids to be used as cannon fodder by >Space Command to limit public spending. All with some "reasonable" >explanation, of course, like an "unavoidable" disaster such as a toxic waste >leak or something. The Federation is a place where people disappear. There are plenty of countries today where people disappear on a regular basis, but the authorities strive to deny it. The Nazi holocaust was conducted under conditions of strict secrecy. A smog of furtive guilt tends to surround governments who dispose of large numbers of people. And quite often the people go along with it. Everyone and his uncle in the USSR knew what was happening under Stalin, but few lacked the good sense to keep quiet about it. >The impression I got in the series was that technology and machines were more >important than people. Blake said as much in Countdown. I thought it was a bit trite of him, actually. More accurate, I think, to say that technology and machinery were essential to the vorsprung durch technik vision of Federation ideology. It was that vision, rather than the material manifestations of it, that mattered more than people. > In the much maligned "Harvest of Kairos" I noticed >that the officers had no concern for the workers left behind to die on Kairos; >what was important was shipping out as much kairopan as possible. The >attitude seemed to be "Well, they're only deltas; who cares?" This seems to >indicate that manpower was cheap and readily available in the Federation. > I would expect it to be both, but it doesn't follow that high-tech machinery isn't cheaper. It's a very complex area where you can't make definitive statements. I've worked in factories where the same job has been done by hand and machinery. Even when the machines continually broke down, production tended to be higher than on the hand lines, presumably enough to offset the capital investment in the machinery. In a small moulding plant like the one I work in now, with production runs in the thousands, it's cheaper to have 1-2 people per machine cutting out the mouldings by hand, even if the turnover of staff is high (not everyone likes the prospect of sticking a knife in their arm). But when production runs enter the millions, mechanical cutters are more economically viable, with each person running two or more machines at once. So with such economies of scale, human labour might be more viable for on/off operations like Kairos, but long-term mining projects would more likely use heavy plant with a minimum of specialised staff. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:09:33 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? Message-ID: <02a901be3e86$29d95000$1c1dac3e@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > writes >> >>Tanith Lee and her fascism - there are three possibilities here >>(a) I meant it. >>(b) I was trying to wind you all up. >>(c) I was sending myself up. >> >>Take your pick. >> >Knowing you, all three at once. >-- >Julia Jones (a) since my definition of a fascist is anyone to the right of Mao Tse Tung, I meant it. Virtually everyone I know/have known qualifies as a fascist. I'm definitely one. (b) given the way an equally offhand reference of mine to homophobia provoked a virulent response from some quarters, a bogus one seemed to offer some mileage. (c) see (b). The worst I would say about Tanith Lee's scripts (I've had a crack at a couple of her novels but couldn't get into them) is that they're not terribly radical. Saying that about a fantasy writer (as opposed to an SF writer) is a bit like accusing the Pope of not being all that Buddhist. I recall reading an essay by either Thomas Disch or Samuel Delaney which called attention to the real fascistic tendencies lurking beneath a lot of SF. The magic name of Robert A Heinlein might well have been dropped (another writer I can't cope with). There was also an intriguing reference to a should-have-been SF novel by Adolf Hitler called 'Lord of the Swastikas'. Does anyone know anything about this? Neil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:47:23 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas Message-ID: <02ad01be3e86$2cecaa80$1c1dac3e@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I always laugh when I see the "miners" breaking rocks >with pick axes in Blakes 7 and other "future" shows (like the Deep Space >9 mirror universe, where the humans are made to work in the mines). I don't so much laugh as shake my head and sigh. It's one of the things that makes reading fanfic such hard going at times, given the number of stories that have the characters set to work in the slave mines etc. >That's how silly it is to have Ro's people >picking away in the mines on Horizon. Given that Horizon is so far out from anywhere else, it might actually make sense. I don't know about today, but in the 1970s it was cheaper to mine bauxite in Ghana and ship it to the US for smelting into aluminium. So on Horizon it might likewise be cheaper to dig out the monopasium by hand with expendable local labour than ship in heavy plant and freight out the ore for processing elsewhere. >Speaking of entertainment: today's futurist books often say that >creating entertainment will be one of the major growth industries of the >next century. But where in the Federation are the video games and >virtual reality adventures we expect to have soon? All destroyed in the >cataclysm? Perhaps all the violence of today's media was blamed for >whatever holocaust was hinted at before the new Federation set up >housekeeping inside the domes? Therefore, electronic media was kept to a >minimum to keep violent thought at bay? This could explain the earlier >thread about why the few pictoral portrayals seen in B7 are "grainy and >poor quality." More likely it's just one of those things that the series overlooked. Like child-rearing, education, work, social welfare and sport. And sex, come to think of it. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:21:36 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] R. Holmes script themes Message-ID: <02aa01be3e86$2aaa5ba0$1c1dac3e@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joey wrote >I remember reading somewhere that Robert Holmes was a vegetarian (please >correct me if I am wrong), and that was the inspiration for his Doctor Who >story The Two Doctors. In it, the character of Shockeye seems to be a >definate comment on meat-eaters, as presented by the script and well-acted >by John Stratton. While I don't think this was a bee in his bonnet, it >clearly stands out in this story, but I don't think it is evident in any >others. I think if Holmes was homophobic, he would have made it more >noticable in the script. I also recall that Shockeye was disappointed at having Peri on the menu when he would much rather have had Jamie. So Holmes wasn't just homophobic, he was a necrophiliac as well. And a fascist. Neil ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 1999 06:15:19 +0100 From: Calle Dybedahl To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII "Neil Faulkner" writes: > (a) since my definition of a fascist is anyone to the right of Mao Tse Tung, That's a creative definition. It includes libertarians, yes? > Saying that about a fantasy writer (as opposed to an SF writer) is a > bit like accusing the Pope of not being all that Buddhist. She has written SF as well as fantasy. Although it is social SF rather than hardcore techno-SF, so I doubt you'd enjoy it. Her B7 scripts are more like her fantasy than her SF, though. > The magic name of Robert A Heinlein might well have been dropped RAH is often accused of having been a fascist, yes. That doesn't make it true. Many, possibly all, of his works is firmly based in the myth of the "competent man", the individual who through his own wits and good qualities overcome great difficulties. This doesn't go very well with fascism, since one of the central parts of fascism is the subordination of the individual to the collective. RAH was also very fond of provoking people, which is why he wrote "Starship Troopers". If you really want fascism, go read Jerry Pournelle (if you can stand it). > There was also an intriguing reference to a should-have-been SF > novel by Adolf Hitler called 'Lord of the Swastikas'. Does anyone > know anything about this? Yes. It's "The Iron Dream" by Norman Spinrad. On my copy it has Spinrad's name and title on the front, and "_The Lord of the Swastika_ by Adolf Hitler" on the first page. It's a sort of parallell-world thing, a "what if Hitler became an SF-writer instead of a dictator?". It reads distressingly much like a cross between a pulp-SF novel of the Doc Smith kind and ordinary heroic fantasy. Actually, it pretty much killed heroic fantasy for me, since I just keep seeing the thinly veiled jews from "The Iron Dream" in the of "evil" races of fantasy (Tolkien's orcs, for example). Spinrad did an extremely good job, and it's well worth buying (if you can find it, it was *way* too provocative to sell well). -- Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se "I'd rather hang on to madness than normality" -- KaTe Bush ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:14:21 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] Paranoia Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Tue 12 Jan, Julia Jones wrote: > In message <13ec93a8.369b6cff@aol.com>, AChevron@aol.com writes > > If Julia would run a session, this would be terrific. D. Rose > > > Erm, you do realise that > A) I last played some ten years ago > B) I GM in the true Paranoia style - "Tables? What are they for? Dice? > Those are what I ask the players to roll so that I can frighten them out > of their wits speculating exactly which way I'm gonna kill them this > time..." ie it's a *role*-playing game. The rulebook is ultraviolet > clearance, and what are you doing with ultraviolet category information, > Friend Citizen? > > Maybe I should run the introductory scenario from Second Edition (which > is what I've got) for newbies, to soften them up before passing them > onto Calle for the real thing. Sounds fun to me. Let's see, you could make an extra scenario... You know the traditional 'you are ordered to briefing room B' but don't actually know where it is routine. If you give prospective players their character sheet and nothing else before the convention (no rules, no explanation, etc.), then their first task is to try and determine when/where the introductory scenario is actually held. Bonus points can be scored by holding it somewhere that isn't used for any programme items - maybe the jacuzzi? For Calle's scenario, you make it tougher. The R+D equipment has to be constructed by the players who are forced to attend the chaos model building session. Then, in an LRP scenario - none of this wimpy table-top stuff, they are forced to infiltrate the masquerade dressed as commie traitors in order to deceive some enemy agents. The uniform of commie traitors is left to the imagination, but a bullseye drawn on the chest is probably a great asset. Of course, if they meet any mutants, they may hit a problem. Do men with eyepatches count as mutants? What would the computer think if the players shot the convention guest in a case of mistaken identity? Judith PS. I'm not kidding about the chaos model-building. This is Blue Peter country! Make your own spaceship out of household junk. We will try and provide suitable junk, but if anyone brings along any empty washing-up liquid bottles, sticky-backed plastic, loo rolls etc., they will be welcomed with open arms. -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 00:06:54 PST From: "Penny Dreadful" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Trolls, Sex, and Metalogic Message-ID: <19990113080654.12458.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Neil the Fascist Hippie Troll said: >More likely it's just one of those things that the series overlooked. Like >child-rearing, education, work, social welfare and sport. And sex, come to >think of it. Huh-huh, you said sex. But seriously. What's the *fun* in dismissing oddities as continuity errors or pointing out that the writer/director/producer was a notorious homophobe/fascist/idiot and his work ought to be interpreted accordingly, compared to meticulously obsessively constructing a back-story to explain the discrepancies we behold? Okay, I'll admit, they're both fun. Now, back to that thread about Servalan's fashion sense... --Penny "Flamebait" Dreadful ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:44:35 +-100 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: lysator Subject: RE: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? Message-ID: <01BE3ED9.57C97B40@nl-arn-lap0063> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Calle wrote: >If you really want fascism, go read Jerry Pournelle (if you can stand it). Which books exactly are you talking about? I've read several, but didn't find any overly fascist tendencies in them (no more than you get in any book with a little action in it). Jacqueline Thijsen -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #25 *************************************