From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #30 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/30 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 30 Today's Topics: RE: [B7L] The Woman in B7 Re: [B7L] B7 characters and dustbin lids [B7L] Some random thoughts on Avon Re: [B7L] Trolling 301: Comparative Anatomy Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas and stuff Re: [B7L] Re: [B7L] Trolling 301: Comparative Anatomy Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7 Re: [B7L] Trolling 101 Re: [B7L] Trolling 101 Re: [B7L] Re:Deutsch/English Ubersetzung Re: [B7L] Mars ain't the kind of place to raise your kids Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7 RE:[B7L] Trolling 101 Re: [B7L] Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7 [B7L] Re: b7spin: Re: sloganeering Re: [B7L] Trolling 101 Re: [B7L] Trolling 301: Comparative Anatomy [B7L] re:remember me? Re: [B7L] B7 characters and dustbin lids Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7 Re: [B7L] re:remember me? Re: [B7L] Re: Horizon competition RE: [B7L] The Woman in B7 Re: [B7L] re:remember me? Re: RE:[B7L] Trolling 101 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:21:09 -0000 From: Louise Rutter To: "'B7 Lysator'" Subject: RE: [B7L] The Woman in B7 Message-ID: <01BE40C4.D2134B00@host5-99-48-11.btinternet.com> I'm a day or so late, but that's hardly unusual: >At some point, especially following a great catastrophe like the one hinted at >in B7, social scientists and engineers will realize that society has degraded >because of the disintegration of the family unit, brought on by the failure of >women to remain home with their chiudren and maintain the family unit (ie- >cook, clean, etc.) As a result, women would be required by the Fewderation to >barefoot and pregnant, Soolin would be vacuming the rug, Dayna would be >dusting etc. Of course, malcontents like Avon would not exist because a happy >home would have made him a happy productive individual. The problem with this arguement, of course, is that not all women are by nature of the nurturing type. Children whose mothers are alcoholics are probably traumatised by her presence rather than nurtured, to take an extreme example. If your theory holds any merit, of course, then these poor mothers are themselves the victims of poor parenting. Personally, I don't think that's true in anything like all cases, but I'll run with it for a while. So, assuming your band of social engineers manages to gain sufficient power to enforce major sociological change, what are they going to do with these non-nurturing types? To achieve their dream society, they not only have to ensure that all mothers stay at home with the kids, they have to ensure that poor nurturers don't breed at all - their kids would be too likely to be dysfunctional. We're now into the realms of enforced sterilisation, but who do you know who to sterilise? How can you predict who will make good, nurturing mothers? Some terribly professional career women suddenly go all mushy when they have a child. Others want to continue their lives just as they did before the kid was born. You could give young people a dry run by testing their nurturing reaction to a pet, but that's not foolproof - personally, I go all soggy at the sight of a kitten, but I don't want babies anywhere near me. I think your social engineers would be in for a rough ride and a good deal of disillusionment. Louise ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:13:47 PST From: "Penny Dreadful" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] B7 characters and dustbin lids Message-ID: <19990115211347.15885.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Iain said: >What about the others? Blake would be about the only other character >I'd trust to bring up kids... ...Penny opens her mouth to make some *extremely* tasteless joke concerning Blake's alleged crimes...then forcibly stifles herself. Awk! Awk! -- Penny "Even I'm Not That Dreadful" Dreadful ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 23:06:58 -0000 From: "+ +" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Some random thoughts on Avon Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I always thought it was interesting how the series shifted from being a story "about" Blake to be a story "about" Avon, and when you watch it from the beginning it almost seems like it was intended that way all along. Especially in Avon's first episode where they're being held prisoner, with Avon sitting in front and Blake and Jenna are behind him. But at first he's presented as the outsider, and the one who most closely represents what Blake is fighting against, since he would be willing to sell them out the Federation if it benefited him. If I recall, he was there for reasons similar to Vila, except it was the white-collar version, which makes him the most unsympathetic character in the eyes of the viewers. If Blake was a symbol for idealism and hope, Avon was a symbol of cynicism and destructive negativity. Of course, Avon didn't see it this way; he thought his views were pragmatic, and Blake was a foolish, extremist dreamer. Never mind the fact that he was willing to let Blake and the others rot on Cygnus Alpha while he and Jenna took off with the riches in the Liberator. However, in later episodes he does save Blake's life, even when there's nothing to gain from it, which shows us his character is more complex than we're initially shown. He denies Blake's views have any validity, because his experience has always shown him otherwise, but there is small part of him that, like Jenna, wants to believe in Blake, and more specifically what he stands for. Thus, Avon's split personality. Part of him is jealous of Blake, because he's the leader and has complete control over his own destiny, and part of him secretly admired Blake and sees him as a salvation from a cruel and meaningless universe. After Blake left, Avon, and his world, slowly began to degenerate. Even though he searched for Blake, his dark side didn't want to let go once it got control. After Warlord, he didn't really have much choice, and went to rejoin Blake. By this time, he clearly knows that he's a psychopath, and even says so. Now Blake was the only hope he had left before going over the edge, and it appeared he may have sold them out to the Federation. I think Avon understood what Blake said, but there was too much doubt in his mind and he was already slipping, because Tarrant telling him that Blake betrayed him was the pebble that started an avalanche. He tried to battle against it, but it was futile, and before he knew it Blake was shot, along with all of _his_ "foolish" dreams and hopes. Well, that's just my opinion. "It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane." - Philip K. Dick -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:43:37 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Trolling 301: Comparative Anatomy Message-ID: <369EC779.4C4A@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Penny Dreadful wrote: > Of course the true measure of a troll's success is the sheer amount of > vitrolic verbiage incited: I invite anyone with even less of a life than > me to do a comparative study on followups to the two posts in > question... > -- Penny "Religion Immigration Vivisection Abortion" Dreadful How dare you champion the vivisection of immigrant Deltas who fled Earth to avoid religious prosecution, only to find themselves aborted of their vital organs? The practice of selling Delta testicles and placentas as lucky rabbit foot type charms and trendy water bottle holders ranks right up there with the practice of using andromedean slime to make "pretty" lava lamps for the amusement of jaded federation fleet officers. I am appalled at your lack of sensitivity with regard to those poor, homeless deltas who were forced to immigrate rather than camp out on the steps of the Washington State public library when the federation refused to provide the lazy drones with tv dinners, heated apartments, color virtual reality devices and limitless cranks of soma. You are a heartless, boorish TROLL! >I do, I do! I was hiding in it the other day (for reasons which need not >concern you, youngster) and I kept pushing further and further back >through layer upon layer of fur coats (hmm-hmm) and then suddenly I fell >out into this magical land which was ruled by this *evil* White Queen... hehehehehehehehe - bewitching wardrobe jolly :-D Pat P ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:59:40 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas and stuff Message-ID: <369ECB3C.33BB@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neil Faulkner wrote: > Edith wrote >>... Many poor people in the past also had a role in their > >society, and felt worthy in their society. You would find this be the > >case in many non western societies as well. However, many western poor > >people do not have feelings of worth in our societies. I certainly feel subordinate to machines, especially cars, which seem to be valued, petted and polished, put up on pedestals, and generally worshipped far more than are people - or even gods - these days. > > I think, in a way, this is what Blakes 7 addressed in a way- how people > >are turned into nothing more than mass consumers of commodities, Most insightful. This is exactly how mass media / advertising makes me feel. I despise the term consumer. Whatever happened to citizen? It implied some responsibility to existence besides infantile in-sucking. > > ... The current > affliction of self-worthlessness in society arises from five converging > factors. ... > I think the crisis facing the oxymoron of Western Civilisation is our > inability to come to terms with our own supreme unimportance. Neil, your analysis is stunning in its clarity and completeness. I agree absolutely. Now, having spent this entire evening in-sucking 130 posts (whew! skip a day and suffer the deluge!) I wonder: what do you do in real life that allows you to write these amazingly intelligent and in depth essays? PhD in psychology? Is this your version of publish or perish? Curious Pat ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 19:54:33 EST From: Tigerm1019@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Message-ID: <28f30a24.369fe349@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-01-15 06:52:04 EST, Stephen wrote: << Space Command Headquarters. Servalan is sitting on a comfy chair with a glass of that green stuff. A handsome young lieutenant is feeding her Ferrero Rocher chocolates. Two mutoids (male) enter bringing Supestud bound and gagged. They ungag him, tie his hands to the hook of a crane which lifts him up and dangles him over a tank filled with piranhas. >> But isn't this cruel to the poor piranhas? He might give them indigestion. Tiger M ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:49:59 -0600 From: Lisa Williams To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Trolling 301: Comparative Anatomy Message-Id: <199901160051.SAA15547@mail.dallas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Penny Dreadful wrote: >Of course the true measure of a troll's success is the sheer amount of >vitrolic verbiage incited: I invite anyone with even less of a life than >me to do a comparative study on followups to the two posts in >question... Ah, but the incitement of vitriol is more associated with flamebaiting than with trolling. As flamebait, I readily admit that SupeStud00 carried the day -- it was quite a classic example, misspellings and all. The vitriol count was a bit low, but that's because most of the folks here aren't too easily baited. That sort of thing works better on some of the more keyed-up Usenet groups. Now, with a proper troll, the objective is to get people to "fall for it" -- to think you're seriously stating something when in fact you weren't serious at all. Neil's little offhand remark evidently had several people trying to figure out how to derive fascism from the works of Tanith Lee, and getting all confused over it. That makes it a successful troll. (I even gave it a bit of thought myself: "What, it was *fascist* green vampire sand...? Nah, gotta be a troll.") Unlike flamebait, producing noisy emotional responses is not usually the primary objective of trolling (though there is a certain amount of overlap, and heated discussions certainly can occur in either case.) - Lisa _____________________________________________________________ Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@rsc.raytheon.com Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/ New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:10:10 EST From: SupeStud00@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7 Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/14/99 3:53:37 AM EST, N.Faulkner@tesco.net writes: << How absolutely true. At last I've seen the light,>> Glad that I could be of service. << How right you are to point out that working mothers are a recent social development with no historical precedent whatsoever, and that there is no other substitute for maintaining the family unit>> There is no substitute for the mother who remains at home. IMHO she is more valuable than the woman who squanders her family and ruins her children by trying to play in man's world. << (given that men are biologically incapable of cooking, cleaning, and etcetering,>> Not so much incapable as not efficient for the task. Men should be the hunters, gatherers, and women the home managers. Its a force of nature. << and that even if they were there would be no prospect in both parents sharing domestic responsibilities).>> Better than both parents working and neglecting those responsibilities, which is what usually happens. << It's nice to know I'm not the only one who believes that the division of labour along gender lines is genetically determined, rather than the product of so-called economic forces, and it's so reassuring to realise that the nuclear family having to cope alone without assistance from an extended community has nothing to do with urbanisation and the need for social mobility in the wake of the Industrial Revolution. And how refreshing to know that our lives willl one day be structured for us by social scientists and engineers (social or otherwise) rather than the self-serving decisions of politicians and the commercial interests that put and keep them in power.>> Glad to see I am not the only one cursed with genius. Welcome to the club. << Then, as you say, we will see an end to malcontented men, because any mother that raises a malcontented child has failed in her task,>> YES!!! YES!!!! You understand!!!!!! << and once women are put in their proper natural place they can never fail because it is proper and natural for them and there will be no distractions like work to upset their hormones and stop them rearing children properly without any need for instruction or experience whatsoever.>> Yes....we agree. << Just one small picky point, if I may: wouldn't Dayna vacuum the rug while Soolin did the dusting?>> Does it matter? Neil the Enlightened >> Yes, I believe so. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:13:21 EST From: SupeStud00@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Trolling 101 Message-ID: <6695c167.369fe7b1@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/14/99 9:41:34 AM EST, N.Faulkner@tesco.net writes: << >In my scenario, the all male dominated government would probably pass a law >requiring women to wear stiletto heels, so as to improve their figures (from >the male prespective.) Servalan would be allowed to wear the heels, she just >wouldn't be allowed access to the throne. Perhaps she, Jenna, Cally, Dayna >and Soolin would form their own resistance of supports.......... > I'm just wondering how long you can keep this up. For as long as you want, I suspect. >> Keep what up? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:16:56 EST From: SupeStud00@aol.com To: lcw@dallas.net, blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Trolling 101 Message-ID: <5d1e2eaa.369fe888@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/14/99 7:48:15 PM EST, lcw@dallas.net writes: << (Is this the same person who opined some time back that the reason so many female B7 fans like Avon is because he was a real macho male instead of some sensitive wimpy type? I seem to recall the style.) >> Nope, not me. Though it does make sense. Avon was "macho", for lack of a better word....and its the real reason women like him, whether they admit it or not. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:18:10 EST From: SupeStud00@aol.com To: N.Faulkner@tesco.net, blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re:Deutsch/English Ubersetzung Message-ID: <375cf642.369fe8d2@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/14/99 7:52:12 PM EST, N.Faulkner@tesco.net writes: << It is a statement to the effect that the opinions proffered by StupeSud00 might have market potential as quality fertiliser. >> Then don't read them, but my opinion is just as valuable as anyone's opinion. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:25:28 EST From: SupeStud00@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Mars ain't the kind of place to raise your kids Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/14/99 9:58:19 PM EST, avona@jps.net writes: << Re: The Idiot's theory that is women stayed home with kids, there'd be no social troubles.>> Referring to me? Have we met? <> A good father would never be this way. What does it have to do with my argument? << I'm dealing right now with a friend with a father from Hell.>> Sorry about your friend. << Furthermore, stay-at-home mothers would be less able to counteract the damage done.>> Stay at home mothers are stronger becuase of their connection to their family, than mothers who have thrown themselves into the world of man's work. << Invalid theory even within it's internal logic, regardless of any other competing theories about personality, child development, sexual politics, etc. >> Very valid thoery because it is so. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:22:35 EST From: SupeStud00@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7 Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/14/99 9:58:15 PM EST, avona@jps.net writes: << If people are still breeding in the future at the rate that demands women stay home to look after kids, we are doomed. We are going to stabilize the population. Women who want kids will have them, and hopefully economically be able to stay home-->> The way it should be IMHO. << or allow the father to stay home and nurture them. Men ARE capable of that, you know.>> Men are capable of nurturing emotionally but not physically. They don't have breast, and therefore can not nurse. << Other women will have no children whatsoever and therefore have no reason to stay home.>> IMHO, an incomplete woman. Having a husband and children are two necessary elements to creating a complete woman.....even in B7 times it seems. << Soolin had her parents killed, and would hunt the writer of this mindless drivel down and shoot him. >> Soolin (though physically very attractive) is not truly representative of a real woman.....or at least my definition of a real woman. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:39:16 EST From: SupeStud00@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: RE:[B7L] Trolling 101 Message-ID: Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_916450757_boundary" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_916450757_boundary Content-ID: <0_916450757@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII In a message dated 1/15/99 8:37:53 PM EST, SupeStud00 writes: << In a message dated 1/15/99 7:04:04 PM EST, Spudgun@dial.pipex.com writes: <> That's S-T-U-D, SuperS-T-U-D as in a highly intelligent guy, who is extremely good looking and gets all of the women......not unlike Avon. A guy that women hat to love but love anyway. That is I. Any AOL members out there should check my profile for the ultimate truth. <> I can relate. <> It's not stereotyping.....its the truth. << It's a long time since a child of five knew the real meaning of the word work and this is basically down to the degradation of the family unit >> Yes....YES.....by golly you have it. Welcome to the ranks of the geniuses. --part0_916450757_boundary Content-ID: <0_916450757@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline From: SupeStud00@aol.com Return-path: To: Spudgun@dial.pipex.com Subject: Re: [B7L] Trolling 101 Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:37:53 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/15/99 7:04:04 PM EST, Spudgun@dial.pipex.com writes: <> That's S-T-U-D, SuperS-T-U-D as in a highly intelligent guy, who is extremely good looking and gets all of the women......not unlike Avon. A guy that women hat to love but love anyway. That is I. Any AOL members out there should check my profile for the ultimate truth. <> I can relate. <> It's not stereotyping.....its the truth. << It's a long time since a child of five knew the real meaning of the word work and this is basically down to the degradation of the family unit >> Yes....YES.....by golly you have it. Welcome to the ranks of the geniuses. --part0_916450757_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:41:07 EST From: SupeStud00@aol.com To: Tigerm1019@aol.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Message-ID: <252117a1.369fee33@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/15/99 7:58:34 PM EST, Tigerm1019@aol.com writes: << But isn't this cruel to the poor piranhas? He might give them indigestion. >> Jealousy will get you nowhere. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:33:40 EST From: SupeStud00@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7 Message-ID: <462db4d2.369fec74@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/15/99 3:32:24 PM EST, Louise.Rutter@btinternet.com writes: << The problem with this arguement, of course, is that not all women are by nature of the nurturing type.>> My belief is that they should be. Those who are not end up raising children with serious deficiencies. << Children whose mothers are alcoholics are probably traumatised by her presence rather than nurtured, to take an extreme example.>> Agreed. << If your theory holds any merit, of course, then these poor mothers are themselves the victims of poor parenting. Personally, I don't think that's true in anything like all cases, but I'll run with it for a while. So, assuming your band of social engineers manages to gain sufficient power to enforce major sociological change, what are they going to do with these non-nurturing types?>> Make them nurturing through some unknown process or eliminate them....the Federation appears to be quite capable of both....brainwashing and ruthlessness. << To achieve their dream society, they not only have to ensure that all mothers stay at home with the kids, they have to ensure that poor nurturers don't breed at all - their kids would be too likely to be dysfunctional.>> Agreed. << We're now into the realms of enforced sterilisation, but who do you know who to sterilise? How can you predict who will make good, nurturing mothers? Some terribly professional career women suddenly go all mushy when they have a child.>> Indications they have what it takes to be good mothers. << Others want to continue their lives just as they did before the kid was born.>> One possible reason Avon exists......or John Hinckley.....or Saddam Hussein.......or Hitler........or Bill Clinton........ << You could give young people a dry run by testing their nurturing reaction to a pet, but that's not foolproof - personally, I go all soggy at the sight of a kitten, but I don't want babies anywhere near me.>> I think the Federation would do more than a dry run. <> Not unlike the Federation. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:40:12 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se, b7spin@metva.com.au Subject: [B7L] Re: b7spin: Re: sloganeering Message-ID: <369FDFEC.5C75@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit vera@c031.aone.net.au wrote: > Hi Pat, > >jumped this from the lysator list > >(I hope you're on the spin list, Malissa) > Yes I am. A tv report from the beef council re: microwavable pot roast product: > >"The busy consumer can now enjoy an exceptional beef experience." > > Shouldn't this be on Spacecity?? > > Blake: an exceptional beef experience. > > Ah huh. Mm hmm. Malissa, you nearly made me spray coffee all over the keyboard. baaad grrrl! I love it! Which naturally, leads me to: Avon: the other white meat Pat P ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 19:23:51 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Trolling 101 Message-ID: <36A00647.41D3@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Spudgum? Supersuds? dodododo dodododo - You have just entered -- The Twilight Zone! Surely this is not the familiar analytic INTJ lysator territory to which I have become accustomed? I expect that like Liberator, I have been sucked into a black hole and fallen into the hands of the Tharn's Grand Caliph - ouch! who is zapping me with his evil shock stick. Stop! I'll talk! Orac is that little bald dwarf still wearing last month's christmas tree lights. (scroll to bottom of post, please, for more) re: SupeStud00@aol.com wrote: > Subject: Re: [B7L] Trolling 101 > Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:37:53 EST > From: SupeStud00@aol.com > To: Spudgun@dial.pipex.com > In a message dated 1/15/99 7:04:04 PM EST, Spudgun@dial.pipex.com writes: > <> > That's S-T-U-D, SuperS-T-U-D as in a highly intelligent guy, who is extremely > good looking and gets all of the women......not unlike Avon. A guy that women > hat to love but love anyway. That is I. Any AOL members out there should > check my profile for the ultimate truth. > < on a length of chain between the kitchen and the bedroom and whip her > mercilessly when she speaks 'out of turn'. >> > I can relate. > It's not stereotyping.....its the truth. > << It's a long time since a child of five knew the real meaning of the word > work and this is basically down to the degradation of the family unit >> > Yes....YES.....by golly you have it. Welcome to the ranks of the geniuses. SS's original post has certainly stirred up a storm of controversy, but I have been having an off-list email discussion of Margaret Atwood's novel (I had rented the video version) "A Handmaiden's Tale" This book is about a conservative backlash that basically put women in their place: barefoot and pregnant. The Handmaidens. The Marthas. The Wives. So I did not find SS's original post outlandish at all. In case you've forgotten, he postulated that the Federation, post apocolypse, had restricted women to a realm of home and nurturing children to be non violent, in an effort to forestall another such apocolypse. In times of economic recession, or war, or environmental collapse, women have traditionally been blamed for the trouble, and told to "go to your room and stay there until I say you can come out." i.e. restricted to kinder, kitchen, kitch (forget the german word for church) The Handmaiden's Tale was written in the 1980s when the US religious right, led by anti-feminist Phyllis Shafly, was crusading to send women back to the home. Away from "the world of men's work," as SS put it. And without the "permission" to work, how are women supposed to survive? Eat the babies men put upon them? Mens work: That is a quaint notion in itself: what, exactly, is men's work? From the dim dawn of pre-history, women grew the food, manufactured the clothes, ranched the animals, created the home furnishings - dishes, bedding, even walls and floors of straw. What "work" have men historically done? 1) make spears and strut about trying to look important while stabbing at animals, including one another 2) ferment brews and get drunk 3) chase women and fuck them and make babies - which the women then "nurture" in their "spare" time. My conclusion: if women didn't do "men's work" the human race would still be - individually - poking sticks into anthills and eating the resultant delicacies - just like our animal siblings, the chimps. Pat P ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 19:35:04 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Trolling 301: Comparative Anatomy Message-ID: <36A008E8.1886@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lisa Williams wrote: > Ah, but the incitement of vitriol is more associated with flamebaiting than > with trolling... Unlike flamebait, producing noisy > emotional responses is not usually the primary objective of trolling ... And anyone in the mood for either activity will have far greater success over on the 'other' list, where the more emotional types hang out. This pod of mostly INTJ/P's is a tough audience to fluster. Now, head on over 'there' and throw darts at pretty-buns and watch the bait be flamed! slightly singed and still snickering, Pat P ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 19:28:13 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] re:remember me? Message-ID: <36A0074D.5D0B@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Avona, I sent this to your personal address, but it bounced back to me as non deliverable, so shall re-post to the list. Helen Krummenacker wrote: > Re-subbed and safe. > Tramila, are you awake? ;^/ > Avona has returned. Hooray! You and my old pal Tramila had me list lafing non stop. Welcome back. Perhaps you can lure Tramila back onto the list for some frothy Vila blather. She is very funny on line, and so are you! :-D Pat P ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 21:54:03 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] B7 characters and dustbin lids Message-ID: <36A01B6A.175D@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rob Clother wrote: (snippity) re: child-rearing > I'm not so sure about Servalan, though. Her meticulous nature might > well make her an excellent parent. If she decided she was going to > apply herself to the upbringing of her child (big if), I can see her > doing a far better job than any other character in B7. She would know > instinctively how much or how little time to devote to her offspring -- > being a great admirer of strength, she would foster that quality above > all else, but she'd be too much of a perfectionist to neglect other > aspects of her kids' development. What's more, she'd be great with kids > of either sex. A male would be brought up to embody all the qualities > she admires in men (and our Servie doesn't lack experience in that > department); a female would be taught all of the cunning and > ruthlessness she used to get to the top. But they would be pushed to do this, and that could result in the child rebelling. Then they would try to be the exact opposite of what she wants them to be. Thus, we discover Servalan is Vila's mommy. (snip) > What about the others? Blake would be about the only other character > I'd trust to bring up kids -- in the right circumstances, I can see his > kiddies turning out to be historians or artists or Radio 3 presenters. > There seems to be quite a bit of the Renaissance man lurking in our Roj. I think Gan seems like a good poppa type. He'd be patient; great at roughousing with the little ones; a good listener; he seems to like work ing with his hands, and would spend time on activities with the kid. > > Avon: forget it. He wouldn't know one end of a child from the other. Agreed; he wouldn't be interested until the child was old enough to speak complete sentences, at which point he might decide actually teaching the child would be a worthy experiment. But his perfectionist demands would be rough on the child, who would want his approval and get it rarely and grudgingly. Vila would come home late and drunk, but when he was around, the children would think he was fun. Tarrant, would, I think, quite likely make a good father. This does NOT mean I am joining the Tarrant Nostra. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 22:22:21 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7 Message-ID: <36A0220C.4462@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > << or allow the father to > stay home and nurture them. Men ARE capable of that, you know.>> > > Men are capable of nurturing emotionally but not physically. They don't have > breast, and therefore can not nurse. You may have been breast fed until you were 18, but most of us stopped before age 2. Even in natural communities, women only breast feed for 4 years. After that, why isn't the emotional capability to nurture all that important? > > << Other women will have no children whatsoever and therefore have no > reason to stay home.>> > > IMHO, an incomplete woman. Having a husband and children are two necessary > elements to creating a complete woman.....even in B7 times it seems. That DOES it! Where's my highly complicated toothpick?! I know I shouldn't bother respoonding to this man's gibberish but-- I DON'T want kids!!! It will not make me complete! It might kill me. I have enough health problems without having to worry about a pregnancy, and then the months of insomnia. I have a husband. I have a cat. I have beautiful books to read, artwork in the process of creation, a garden to nurture. I have many ways to express my creative and life-giving side without adding to overpopulation, burdening my wonderful husband with the financial weight of having to earn enough for 3 people to live on, all for the sake of creating a creature that will contribute nothing but drool to my life for several months before it even begins to be a rational creature. > > << Soolin had her parents killed, and would hunt the writer of this > mindless drivel down and shoot him. >> > > Soolin (though physically very attractive) is not truly representative of a > real woman.....or at least my definition of a real woman. I cannot imagine that there is one female on this list who would like to fit your idea of a real woman. Anyone? Thought not. --Avona ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 22:31:23 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] re:remember me? Message-ID: <36A0242A.2CF9@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Tramila, are you awake? ;^/ > > Avona has returned. > Hooray! You and my old pal Tramila had me list lafing non stop. Welcome > back. Perhaps you can lure Tramila back onto the list for some frothy > Vila blather. She is very funny on line, and so are you! :-D > Pat P Hhhmmm. ::slow, lopsided smile:: I'm ready. Tramila, care for some Andrenaline and Soma? Perhaps we can drown out the sexist rantings of SupeDud with a glass of the green and a bit of chat. Stole anything nice for Christmas? --Avona ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:59:44 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Horizon competition Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Fri 15 Jan, Harriet Monkhouse wrote: > Judith Proctor writes: > >I suspect most people would want a story actually > >set in the first or second season, but I'm not sure that > >this is what Brian Lighthill wants (though I do hope I'm wrong). > > Yes, but if everyone dutifully writes fourth season because Brian Lighthill > wants it, then he'll be able to say "Look! That's what everyone's been > interested in all along!" The more second season goes in, the more chance > someone might notice that that was actually rather popular. Well, I'm inclined to agree. I'm just terrified that he's so wedded to the 4th season that he'll ignore anything that won't shoe horn into it. The implication is that 4th season plots were wanted, though it didn't say so outright. Let's hope people submit lots of both. Once Redemption is over, I shall set pen to paper and try my best. Note that it is plot outlines rather than complete scripts that are wanted. Probably for copyright reasons. (I daresay somebody else will end up actually writing the story if a winning entry is used) Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:38:38 +-100 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: "blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: RE: [B7L] The Woman in B7 Message-ID: <01BE413C.63FB2840@nl-arn-lap0063> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Avona said: >You may have been breast fed until you were 18, but most of us stopped >before age 2. Even in natural communities, women only breast feed for 4 >years. After that, why isn't the emotional capability to nurture all >that important? good one, Avona! >> IMHO, an incomplete woman. Having a husband and children are two necessary >> elements to creating a complete woman.....even in B7 times it seems. >That DOES it! Where's my highly complicated toothpick?! I know I >shouldn't bother respoonding to this man's gibberish but-- I DON'T want >kids!!! It will not make me complete! It might kill me. I have enough >health problems without having to worry about a pregnancy, and then the >months of insomnia. I seem to recall reading something to the effect that genetically, it didn't really matter wether someone got any kids of their own or left it to their siblings. In that case, doing your best to make the world a little better so that other kids can have a good life is in fact the same as doing your best to raise your own kids. I don't want to have children either, not because of any physical reasons, but because I think there is just a little too much of Avon in me: I am impatient, not very understanding and just wouldn't be a very good mother. I no longer feel ashamed of that: other people who would be good mothers, maybe wouldn't be a very good programmer, which I am. I'll leave the nurturing to my sister, who wants it and is much better at it than I am, anyway. > > > ><< Soolin had her parents killed, and would hunt the writer of this > > mindless drivel down and shoot him. >> > > >> Soolin (though physically very attractive) is not truly representative of a >> real woman.....or at least my definition of a real woman. >I cannot imagine that there is one female on this list who would like to >fit your idea of a real woman. Anyone? >Thought not. Not only that, but I no longer read any of Stupesud's postings. I find it difficult and basically a waste of time to pay attention to someone who in effect tells me (and any other woman) that he does not respect me and that I should have no rights whatsoever. I have just deleted all of Studdies postings without bothering to read them and will continue to do so. Jacqueline Thijsen ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 01:47:25 -0800 From: Tramila To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] re:remember me? Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990116014725.0082a940@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Helen Krummenacker wrote: >> > Tramila, are you awake? ;^/ >> > Avona has returned. >> Hooray! You and my old pal Tramila had me list lafing non stop. Welcome >> back. Perhaps you can lure Tramila back onto the list for some frothy >> Vila blather. She is very funny on line, and so are you! :-D >> Pat P Tramila laughs. Oh Pat. You are so funny. Hugs. >Huummm. ::slow, lopsided smile:: I'm ready. Tramila, care for some >Andrenaline and Soma? Tramila passes her cup for a refill. >Perhaps we can drown out the sexist rantings of >SupeDud with a glass of the green and a bit of chat. >Stole anything nice for Christmas? Steal? Why Avona, you know that I would NEVER steal then looks as angelic as possible. Tramila looks both ways before explaining her latest scheme to Avona in a low voice. "So what do you think, huh?" Tramila who is soooooo stupid that she just realized that her name rhymes with Vila. Believe me, it was just a coincidence.....but I like it. :) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:25:03 -0000 From: "Spudgun" To: Subject: Re: RE:[B7L] Trolling 101 Message-Id: <199901161138.MAA18874@samantha.lysator.liu.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Get to the point SuperStew. All this blatant misogynism and you haven't once mentioned shagging. The number of times I've come home pissed as a fart, spent 10 minutes just trying to get through the front door and then made some pretty romantic advances on my girlfriend only to be turned down flat are uncountable. I wouldn't so much but I do a bloody good impression of being sober when I'm incapable of speech. What I want to know is what the federation intends to do about all the shags I will still be owed in the 25th century. Maybe I should have several girfriends on a strict rota basis so if my wily charms didn't work on one of them I could move on to the next. ---------- > From: SupeStud00@aol.com > To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se > Subject: RE:[B7L] Trolling 101 > Date: 16 January 1999 01:39 > > In a message dated 1/15/99 8:37:53 PM EST, SupeStud00 writes: > > << > In a message dated 1/15/99 7:04:04 PM EST, Spudgun@dial.pipex.com writes: > > <> > > That's S-T-U-D, SuperS-T-U-D as in a highly intelligent guy, who is extremely > good looking and gets all of the women......not unlike Avon. A guy that women > hat to love but love anyway. That is I. Any AOL members out there should > check my profile for the ultimate truth. > > < on a length of chain between the kitchen and the bedroom and whip her > mercilessly when she speaks 'out of turn'. >> > > I can relate. > > <> > > It's not stereotyping.....its the truth. > > << It's a long time since a child of five knew the real meaning of the word > work and this is basically down to the degradation of the family unit >> > > Yes....YES.....by golly you have it. Welcome to the ranks of the geniuses. > > > > -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #30 *************************************