From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #316 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/316 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 316 Today's Topics: [B7L] Cally's conscience [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia? [B7L] Mornington Crescent [B7L] Cynicism is moral laziness (was: Why Dystopia?) [B7L] Upcoming conventions Re: [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia? [B7L] dream interview - MK Re: [B7L] dream interview - MK Re: [B7L] Mornington Crescent Re: [B7L] Mornington Crescent [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #315 [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #315 Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #315 Re [B7L] Why Dystopia? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:47:28 -0700 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Cally's conscience Message-ID: <19991109.224730.8934.0.Rilliara@juno.com> I'm still making up my mind how much I believe the following, but here goes. How to resolve Cally's statements about 'companions for our deaths' and her anti-revenge statements later? Skipping trauma issues (and she had it the first time she said this), could it be that Cally differentiated between dying in battle and revenge? In the first case, she might feel it was justified, having failed in everything else at that point, to attack the enemy and put in a good accounting. Revenge could have played a part, but she didn't have to admit this to herself. Although she would have achieved nothing major, she would have weakened the Federation by at least a few soldiers. She might have justifed this as a minor tactical victory, even if she couldn't have expected anything major from it. And there was always the longshot chance of actually doing serious damage. Then there was her apparent real motive of getting herself killed, allbeit honorably. Revenge for Anna was not a military or war oriented goal. Aurons wouldn't be the only culture to employ different rules for what was ethical in war vs ethics in peacetime. Cally didn't have to find personal revenge honorable or acceptable. Now, as to whether or not I agree with that idea . . . . Ellynne ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 23:48:28 -0700 From: Penny Dreadful To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia? Message-Id: <4.1.19991109225257.00957df0@mail.powersurfr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:48 PM 09/11/99 +0000, Neil Faulkner wrote: >At the same time, I'm not entirely happy with the way dystopia can celebrate >the adolescent male preoccupation with (and unhealthy conflation of) sex and >death and blood, though that is not of course the entirety of the dystopian >vision, only one direction in which it can go. I rescind my previous rationale. Sex, death, blood! Those are much better reasons. Or let me more reasonably say: gross gothic melodrama is not without its appeal -- when I do want subtle, I don't look for it on TV. (cover your eyes, Lisa) "PLAYER: They're hardly divisible, sir -- well, I can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and I can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and I can do you all three concurrent or consecutive, but I can't do you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory -- they're all blood, you see." (okay, it's safe to start reading again) --Penny "Avoncrantz and Blakenstern are Dead" Dreadful -- "How real do you feel, Mrs. Peel?" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:18:00 +0000 From: Steve Rogerson To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Mornington Crescent Message-ID: <38292A37.AD03543A@mcr1.poptel.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From: Penny Dreadful >No doubt I will regret asking, but the question has nagged at me since back >when people were first playing this game: >(a) Am I missing some incredibly subtle in-jokes? >(b) Am I missing some incredibly *obvious* in-jokes? >(c) Was it all purely random free-association gobbledegook? >(d) All of the above? >(e) None of the above? There is only one thing I can say to that: Tottenham Court Road -- cheers Steve Rogerson http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson "In my world, there are people in chains and you can ride them like ponies" The alternative Willow, Buffy the Vampire Slayer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 01:39:57 PST From: "Rob Clother" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Cynicism is moral laziness (was: Why Dystopia?) Message-ID: <19991110093958.92217.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Ellyne: >I suppose I accept the idea that cynicism is a kind of moral laziness >(yeah, I know, "them's fighting words" on this list). At least, cynicism >that prompts inaction is. One of my all-time favourite B7 moments sums up this theme perfectly. It's from "The Web", and it centred around Avon's and Blake's attitudes to the Decimas. Can't remember the quotes exactly, but they went something like this: AVON: Let me tell you something, Blake. Change is inevitable. BLAKE: Why else would we fight? And people actually wonder why so many of us prefer Blake to Avon... -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 07:24:58 EST From: Bizarro7@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se, freedom-city@blakes-7.org Subject: [B7L] Upcoming conventions Message-ID: <0.7501b302.255abe1a@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Annie and I plan to be attending the following conventions in the next year, hopefully with our B7 fanzines in tow (or in the Dealer's Room): WOLF 359 this coming weekend in London; THE GATHERING 5 in Denver in February; and LEGACY 2000 on Memorial Day Weekend next May, in Washington DC (the guest list is rapidly becoming too tempting to resist, so we'll skip MEDIAWEST*CON this time around. Besides, Washington DC is a heckuva closer drive than East Lansing, Michigan). Leah ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 14:08:40 +0000 From: Una McCormack To: b7 Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia? Message-ID: <38297C68.95A6430F@q-research.connectfree.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neil Faulkner wrote: > I > might suggest that one of the distinguishing features of dystopia is that it > questions the moral certainties we've been brought up on. No, I think that's a function of utopian literature in general: look at More. Una ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:29:14 +0000 (GMT) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: [B7L] dream interview - MK Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII suppose you had the chance to interview any cast member, what questions would you most like to ask? I think this might be most interesting if we take it one cast member at a time. I'll start with Michael Keating, as someone said to me this morning that they'd most like to ask Michael Keating how he saw the relationship between Vila and Avon. I think the question I'd most like to ask him is about commedy. Did he enjoy that aspect of Vila's personality? Did he feel that Vila used jokes as a way of hiding his fear? Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight ) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:42:50 -0000 From: "Julie Horner" To: "Lysator List" Subject: Re: [B7L] dream interview - MK Message-ID: <004c01bf2bb3$c70fb920$d15a95c1@orac> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Judith Proctor >suppose you had the chance to interview any cast member, >what questions would you most like to ask >I'll start with Michael Keating, ... I would like to ask him which other crew member would he have most liked to play if the casting had been different. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:48:11 EST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Mornington Crescent Message-ID: <19991110214811.10819.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: Steve Rogerson >There is only one thing I can say to that: > >Tottenham Court Road Steve, wouldn't matter if you said King's Cross, Museum, or even Circular Quay (to take an example not borrowed from Britain)... Regards Joanne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:21:09 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Mornington Crescent Message-ID: <038201bf2bca$43429b50$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joanne said: > >From: Steve Rogerson > >There is only one thing I can say to that: > > > >Tottenham Court Road > > Steve, wouldn't matter if you said King's Cross, Museum, or even Circular > Quay (to take an example not borrowed from Britain)... Hey - keep that as Canary Wharf. Una ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:26:43 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #315 Message-ID: <382A3772.188B@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Joanne > > Mr Moony presents his compliments to Professor Snape, and begs him to keep > his abnormally large nose out of other people's business. > --J K Rowlings, Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. > Do others see a similarity in Avon and Snape? (Aside from the fact Avon obviously washes his hair more often.) Avon constantly griped about his comrades in the first 2 seasons, and yet was always bailing them out. Snape, dispite being petty and vindictive, has always tried to keep Harry from getting killed by his own recklessness and the enemies out to kill him. Snape would like Harry expelled from the school; Avon tried to get his crewmates to abandon Blake. Lean, large-nosed men with dark hair. I would definitely cast Paul to play the Potions master. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:38:26 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #315 Message-ID: <382A3A31.311C@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rob said: > And, when it comes down to it, suffering makes for better drama than > happiness. I was going to say that B7 gives us internal dramatic conflicts as well as external dramatic conflicts... and you notice we die-hard fans spend a lot more time discussing *that* aspect of the show than say, the enemy's chain-of-command. Also, the actions of one show have consequences in the next... ST has a tendancy to, as one friend put it, hit the 'reset' button at the end of the episode. That doesn't really have to do with the dysutopian question, of course... but in a utopian society, you are limited to 2 things: banding together against an outside threat and... TEletubbies! I assume everyone has read "Those Who Walk Away from Omelas", which gave us the fascinating situation of a utopia based on a single evil... perhaps utopian societies don't go down well is that we all have enough suspicion to say 'there must be a catch, somewhere'. ' > That's why Hamlet is a more memorable character than Big Gay Al > (though not by much, I have to concede). I don't know... there's a thousand tragic, Hamlet-esque stories that tend to blur together, but I've never seen anything like Big Gay Al's boat ride elswhere. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:08:31 EST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #315 Message-ID: <19991111040832.2781.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: Helen Krummenacker >Lean, large-nosed men with dark >hair. I would definitely cast Paul to play the Potions master. Gareth for Dumbledore? I've got some re-reading to do, haven't I? Regards Joanne (Cheers, Helen...) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 06:34:32 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: Subject: Re [B7L] Why Dystopia? Message-ID: <03d401bf2c0e$da761800$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Helen Krummenacker wrote: > I assume everyone has read "Those Who Walk Away from Omelas", which gave > us the fascinating situation of a utopia based on a single evil... > perhaps utopian societies don't go down well is that we all have enough > suspicion to say 'there must be a catch, somewhere'. Yeah, that's a *very* good story. Very complex, very thought-provoking. I think it's a shame, really, that we acquired the distinction between 'utopia' and 'dystopia' (although I suppose it's useful). 'Utopia' never originally carried the positive sense that we give to it now, it was just a fictional place. I think it's inevitable that one person's utopia is another's dystopia (and not just on an intellectual sense, like in 'Omelas': in that story, the utopia is at the price of other people's hell). The new 'Faber Book of Utopias' contains chapters from 'Mein Kampf'. And I think the utopia in 'Utopia' is pretty hellish: all that community living - bleurgh. Give me the messy real world any day. E-mail traumas meant that I only got Neil's original post on this after loads of other posts came in, which was a bit confusing. It also means that everyone's said everything I would have thought of saying, which is annoying, as it means I can't ponce around and make a pile of pretentious pronouncements on one of my pet interests. Anyway, I looked back to Neil's original question: > I found myself wondering why dystopian visions like B7 are so popular in SF, and especially in Western liberal democracies. < Well, I'd query the last remark, because utopic literature has been with us pretty much forever. As for SF: well, what's always interested me about SF is the potential it has for political comment - much more interesting than your actual science bit of SF. Which is why I can blithely watch B7 and not notice the scientific howlers, but get bored with Arthur C Clarke, I suppose. I liked your response a great deal, Alison: > But if we imagine ourselves in a dystopia, all of that anxiety is dissipat ed. There is no obligation to support the rule of law - except for expediency < So dystopic fiction acts as some sort of outlet for our collectively repressed anarchism? I don't think I'm adding anything new here, but it is 6:30am, and I couldn't pass up a chance to muse about these things. Una -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #316 **************************************