From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #76 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/76 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 76 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Re: Roche limit Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats Re: Mary Sues (was Re: [B7L] Fannishness) Re: [B7L] Constructive Criticism (was re: Fannishness) Re: [B7L] Myer's Briggs Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs [B7L] Re: Julius Caesar Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: Mary Sues (was Re: [B7L] Fannishness) Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats [B7L] Avon: INTP or INTJ Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs [B7L] Re Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Re Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: [B7L]: Myers Briggs ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:35:15 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: "Jonathan" CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <23CCCA45A90@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > PS What would really be hard would be typing Dr Who's. I'd take #1 and #4 as > intj (#4 's brilliant plan's that as often as not overlooked a single > crucial piece of the real world would seem to be definitively intj to me, > see Heiss' site), #5 as intp, #7as infj - but #6 ? and #2 ??? > > > I have thought about this. The unpleasant 6th Doctor is definately an ENTP, a person who sees others as nothing more than a potential audience. My cousin is one, and the contrast between him and #6 is amazing. The 5th is definately *not* an INTP, I should know because I am one. I see him more as a feeling person, and he shows an inclination toward self-sacrifice. Definately not an INTP thing! If any of the Doctors is an INTP, I'd recon on the 7th due to his dubious ethical predicaments. He sees the universe as something to be rebuilt and altered according to his BIG PICTURE. This is certainly the aptitude of the type known as Archtect. It's likely that the 4th Doctor was the same, J's seem to be too tidy, and not as spontainious as P's. (Avon was a P too, he got more P as the series progressed, witness Gold.) I agree with you about #1, #2 is possibly a more pleasent ENTP. Vick Brains but no traffic sense! > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:06:26 +0000 (GMT) From: Iain Coleman To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Roche limit Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Judith Proctor wrote: > Iain, > > Fancy a flip chart (or possibly an OHP depending on the room) and a time slot to > talk about Roche's limit and any other good scientific conundrums in B7? (We > couldn't get the images onto the web unless someone had a handy digital camera > though) > > I don't know if many people would come (simply because it would be on the > noticeboard and not in the programme book) but if there's interest, it would > seem to be worth doing. I'm game. I don't want to give a lecture or anything - for various reasons, not least that I don't have time to prepare. However, I think a workshop format could be fun. I could lead off the discussion on science in B7, and the group as a whole could come up with whatever explanations, rationalisations or barely plausible retcons present themselves. I don't sit and ponder for hours on the physics of B7: the ramblings I occasionally post to the list are made up as I go along, usually in response to a point raised by someone else. In that spirit, I feel a freewheeling discussion/argument rather than a lecture would be the best way to go. If there's enough interest, I propose the following. The group meets somewhere with a flipchart and a bunch of pens. I'll kick off the discussion, maybe starting with some of the things we've been discussing on the list recently. Then I'll encourage the rest of the group to chime in with their own theories or other science issues in the series. I'll provide whatever input I can (based on two astrophysics degrees and whatever textbooks I can manage to bring along), and everyone else will bring their own knowledge, perspectives and questions. We'll do that for a while, then go to the bar. If there's not enough interest, I'll just go straight to the bar and skip the intermediate stages. How does that sound? (This format will work best if at least one or two reasonably intelligent and argumentative people show up. You know who you are.) Iain ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:14:49 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: mistral@ptinet.net CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <23D74EC468C@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > The Avon personality cult was perpetuated by > > Vila. > > Hmmm? I think this might be interesting if I understood it. Please > elaborate. > I've given this a lot of thought recently, to the point of giving it a chapter in my 'Avon: A Terrible Misunderstanding' book (which may never see the light of day...An INTP problem is the dawn of understanding of a concept marks the death of interest in said concept. Oh well) Vila was the kind of person to whom Public Relations comes naturally. He saw the oppurtunity to use Avon as his personal guard dog by selling the concept of Avon as a dangerous, nasty not-to-be-trusted character to the ever earnest Blake. ('Don't mess with me Blake', said metaVila, in the psychic realm during ''Spacefall'', 'Or I'll set my nasty pitbull on you. You wouldn't like that now would you..Eh?!') Avon sat by and oversaw the set up, perusing a blank piece of paper in the same way you might engross yourself in a menu card in a cafe whilst listening to someone else's conversation. And all was well and good, with both parties mutually empowered. Avon smiles to himself.... This sets the course for the future. Vick Cold hands do not neccesitate a warm heart. My hand has frozen onto the mouse.. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 04:32:55 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats Message-ID: <36D29FF6.7FF19AD2@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Russ Massey wrote: > The only major characters who use their allure as a weapon in B7 are > Servalan and Tarrant (a little), I would say. I don't see Avon as > pretending to seduce women to get what he wants. Hmmm, Russ. Depends on how you define seduce. Did you see Aftermath? Power? ***Sarcophagus***? Avon's whole twisted relationship with Servalan? He certainly was aware of his masculinity as a *weapon* in series' C and D-- and I can offer you several plausible explanations for the apparent change, none of which have to do with Paul Darrow being allowed more artistic license. (Which I won't bore you with unless you really want them.) Oh, and actually the change started very slowly in series A, and only *accelerated* after Blake left. As for Tarrant-- he's 'young; brave; handsome;' but Servalan seduced him, not the other way around, so I don't see it. In fact, he sort of seems to become softer and more innocent as the show progresses. Actually, Jenna did this allure thing, far more than Tarrant (Breakdown, Bounty, The Keeper). Oh, and one more thing-- the definition you cited says that sex appeal has as much to do with attitude as with looks. Actually, having spent a lot of my youth onstage in various capacities, and never having been much to look at, I daresay it has far *more* to do with attitude than looks. Tarrant is fairly unaware of his own appeal, whereas Avon obviously thinks he's hot stuff-- a self-fulfilling prophecy (which IMHO accounts for a lot of Servalan's appeal, too, because without the attitude, she wouldn't bother with the clothes, hair, makeup.) Sexy is as sexy does. Tarrant appeals if you like innocence; but pirates are (*very* generally statistically speaking) more appealing to women than choirboys. Which is interesting, because Jenna is more self-aware than Cally, and yet Cally gets more attention than Jenna in fanfic. Hmm. Perhaps that's only in the stuff written by women seeing an A/C subplot? Well, that was a longer comment than this topic probably deserved, but, no aspect of B7 is too trivial for dissection and examination under an electron microscope. What's this I've heard about the implications for Federation economics based on a Levi's tag on a pair of Jenna's trousers? Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila p.s. Vila's running out of feet! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:02:09 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: Mary Sues (was Re: [B7L] Fannishness) Message-ID: <02b601be5f28$9d693180$341fac3e@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mistral wrote: I wrote one story (Hunter, in Star Two) which had no less than _four_ 'original, plot-significant (female) characters' and at least as many original plot-significant male ones. I don't think anyone mistook that for a Mary-Sue. Avoid new characters altogether? No No NO. Fanfic needs _more_ original characters - and I mean characters, not stick figures with silly names that slot into the requirements of the plot. Fanfic needs real people, real places, and real culture. (Okay, I mean _imagined_ real people/places etc). It needs invention and imagination. But does it get it? Not half as often as it ought to. For Gruds's sake, there's a whole great galaxy beyond the hull of the Liberator, but too many fan writers don't want to know about it - deliberately. They actively resist acknowledging its existence, or speculating on what it might be like, let alone how it works. They seem to think that the series characters are the only ones of any significance, that where these characters are, and when, is of minimal importance, or no importance at all. This deliberate blinkering of perspective is the single biggest defect of the body of fan fiction as a whole. It turns fanfic into the literature of the ideologically displaced in search of a non-existent locus; it betrays their quest for absolute values that can no longer be considered absolute and never had any value. Fan fiction of this sort ends up being the antithesis of the very series it is supposed to be celebrating. And it scares the living shit out of me. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:17:15 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Constructive Criticism (was re: Fannishness) Message-ID: <02b701be5f28$9e5d5580$341fac3e@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Russ wrote: >>It isn't always like that. I've had some extremely helpful input from >>Judith P, Russ Massey and others over the years. And Judith isn't >>_obviously_ stupider than me... > >Hmm... Meaning *what* exactly. Nope. I must be too stupid to work >out if I'm being insulted there :) You're being a tad paranoid. If I'm going to insult you, I'll do it after Redemption, not before. >>Mind you, nobody's yet managed to tell me how to construct a manageable >>plot. That's how most of my fanfic ends up unfinished. >> >If anyone enlightens you then put them in touch with me next. One >word of advice - know where you're intending to end up. The >beginning and middle can take care of themselves as long as have some >end point to steer them towards. More often than not my stories that >are unfinished are the ones that I wrote with no clear idea of the >climax. I always know where I want to end up, it's the getting there that's the problem. Most of my plots seem to founder on information flow - who knows what, to what degree, and how do they come to know it. Since many of the main actors in my plots are not individuals but organisations - corporations, intelligence agencies, military bodies or government departments - lurking in the background, I presume them to act sensibly on the basis of whatever information they have, so What They Know is crucial. For them not to act sensibly requires extensive subplotting and too many loose ends. One story (remember 'Katanga'?) had me trying to reconcile the conflicting motivations of Federation Central Security, Space Command, the Auron secret service, a planetary liberation front and the repressive government it was trying to overthrow. A fairly typical brew with me. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:31:12 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Myer's Briggs Message-ID: <02b801be5f28$9f3f2a00$341fac3e@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Neil Faulkner wrote: > >>What the f--k is Myers Briggs? > >A personality classification system. See: > > http://www.hronline.com/lib/recruit/faq-mbti.html > http://keirsey.com/ > http://typelogic.com/ > >for some basic info. > > - Lisa Well, I took a brief look and answered a load of incredibly awkward questions, and apparently I'm an INTP for all that's worth. So I'm a wierdo loser haunted by an impending sense of failure, am I? Er, yeah, come to think of it, I probably am. Isn't life a bitch... Neil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:25:33 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: Kathryn Andersen CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <23DA2F85ED7@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > It's interesting also, when you look at fanfic, that the authors seem > to be unconciously placing Avon in the "J" camp whenever they describe > his cabin -- it's always neat and uncluttered. Usually set up as a > contrast with Blake's which is inevitably more messy. You desprately need to read my novella 'Tomb of Ezron' when it comes out! As I recall, didn't I offer you it to proof read last year? > > On the other hand, there's the Sopron. Except that that's the only > time we see him so absent-minded-professor-ish. So what about 'Headhunter'? > > Oh well, the only thing that's clear is that he's borderline. > Vick Judgement makes for blindness to possibilities. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:30:54 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: mistral@ptinet.net CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <23DBA295A75@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I feel so much smarter today than yesterday, when > I didn't have a strong opinion on this. Hmm, LOL. J behaviour-- but I'm a P!) > >You only have me to blame. Vick Too much E-Mail, so little time... But time being infinite... What the hell! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:59:30 -0500 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] Re: Julius Caesar Message-ID: <199902230759_MC2-6B7C-5FBA@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mistral wrote: >Go on, then, cast the rest of it! I vote for Michael >doing Mark Antony this time Funnily enough, I started trying to cast it while cooking dinner, and did eventually decide to give Michael the part of Antony, partly because I thought it would be a nice change for him to get a rather glamorous role. Even though I happen to hate Antony. I was originally pencilling in Steven Pacey for MA, but then decided to shift him to Octavius, as the young interloper... thanks, Carol, for confirming that choice too. Well, Jan Chappell would be perfect for Portia, which I suppose leaves Sally Knyvette with Calphurnia. Blanking on who could be Caesar, but then that's a minor role. David Jackson would be nice as Strato, who is very decent about assisting in Brutus's suicide, but that's an extremely minor part - maybe he could double it with something else. He might be Cassius's friend Titinius too. Or Ligarius, the conspirator with a headache. Actually, if we get into doubling, Michael wouldn't be bad casting for Casca, either. Or, as I've run out of female parts, Glynis Barber can do it (I can see her pretending not to understand Greek, and preferring action to words, though being scared in the storm seems less likely). Josette Simon can be Young Cato, whose part mainly consists of dying bravely in battle. Valentine Dyall for Cicero? And maybe Stratford Johns for Caesar? Something about the tribunes, Flavius and Marullus, who appear in the first scene and then get executed, suggests a parallel with Ravella and Richie, so (consulting my programme guide) Gillian Bailey and Alan Butler can do them. Peter Tuddenham has to be the Soothsayer. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:57:53 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: Lisa Williams CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <23E2D034B5F@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:37:33 -0600 > To: > From: Lisa Williams > Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs > mistral@ptinet.net wrote: > > >Somebody mentioned the Sopron before, as evidence of INTJs 'work before > play' > >attitude, but I've always thought that bit indicated the INTPs 'work=play' > >attitude. Blake's joke in 'Orac' refering to Enzor's flying thing sums this up. He knew Avon's 'work before play' ethic!!! Muller's robot in 'Headhunter' is another really good example. Avon never really saw as a weapon, only as a toy for his own amusement. This is a typical INTP attitude, and aggravating to the sensates around him. This is why Tarrant and Dayna saw that they had to save Avon from himself by destroying the robot; even though Avon, competent engineer though he was would have suceeded in his plan. During that 4th series I pity Avon's predicament. He is surrounded by concrete thinking sensates; his only soulmate being Orac, and his only mindmate being Servalan. Living without the influence of other intuitives is truly soul-destroying. Vick > >Would you be so kind as to give me the reference for that, please? > > The "impending failure" bit is from the INTP profile on the > site. I've seen the same idea brought up in other > places, in particular when discussing how to tell an INTP from an INTJ -- > admittedly often difficult, as the basic personalities are very similar and > many INTPs and INTJs seem to hover around the middle of the P-J scale > anyhow. To sum it up, INTJs know damned well that they're always right; > INTPs aren't quite so sure, and they waffle and second-guess themselves. > Watching Avon in "Horizon", for instance, trying to convince himself that > he can just take off and leave the others, and finally going down after > them, I see an INTP. > > >I very much appreciated your comment on why Servalan is an E. Many things are > >now much clearer. > > I liked this bit, from the ENTJ description on the typelogic.com site: > > TRADEMARK: -- "I'm really sorry you have to die." (I realize this is an > overstatement. However, most Fs and other gentle souls usually chuckle > knowingly at this description.) > > - Lisa > _____________________________________________________________ > Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@rsc.raytheon.com > > Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/ > New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/ > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:10:12 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: Lisa Williams CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <23E617604D3@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I tend to see INTJs as Seven of Nine fron Voyager. However, some of the psychodrama episodes, eg Raven and One endows her with P-ish tendances. Any comments? Vick INTP ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:03:13 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <23E43F33192@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Reply-to: "Alison Page" > From: "Alison Page" > To: "lysator" > Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs > Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 00:11:05 -0000 > > Jonathon's list was good. But really you should also show a list of > fictional INTPs too for comparison. FWIW I put Sherlock Holmes and Spock as > INTP. > Spock an INTP? I've never seen a rational Vulcan!!! Vick the INTP > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 05:27:20 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <36D2ACB7.8D8A827A@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit VJC wrote: > > Many things are much clearer now. Are you any relation to the inventor of Windex? > > > > What is Windex when it's out? > > Vick > > There is a gap in my knowledge. Mine too, apparently. Windex is a glass cleaning solution. Would that be different out than in? Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:14:50 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: mistral@ptinet.net CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <23E757219AD@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Many things are much clearer now. Are you any relation to the inventor of Windex? > What is Windex when it's out? Vick There is a gap in my knowledge. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:38:21 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: mistral@ptinet.net CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <23ED9AD20A4@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > Actually, I was calling Js arrogant and defusing any backlash at the > same time. I love being INTP, especially now that I realize that it's > Avon too. I have seen his mistakes, and know how to avoid them, so I have > hopes of doing better. One problem with this theory. The past is behind us and we never learn by our mistakes like the SJs do. And the only problem I know of with being P is > that we rarely finish anything, which is why I'm working aggressively on > adopting some J behaviours. More of an answer than you wanted, I know. > Ask an NT a question, get a lecture. Ask Orac, if you can assign a type to a computer, I'd tentatively call him (it) an INTP too. In my personal take on Jungian psychology I've invented the Orac complex to explain this. An Orac complex consists of the tendancy toward longwindedness, giving unprovoked lectures, supercilliousness and unreliable claivoyancy based on intuative (inner) extrapolation of undigested facts. The holistic direction of future events is much more important to an Orac complex sufferer that studying the mistakes of the past. An OC sufferer may actually belive her/himself to be the proverbial butterfly that flaps its wings in Hong Kong and a tornado flattens half of central America, due to their ability to influence the paths of others by doing very little but exploying their subtle powers of suggestion. Individual people are of no importance other than as conduits for information. Some OC sufferers may exhibit limited telepathic ability, but due to the inner noise levels of excessive thinking, true links are seldom made. One confirmed sufferer is Dirk Gently in the books by Douglas Adams. On the whole, OC sufferers live by their own solopsistic rule book, perpetuate myths about themselves by denying them and take everyone else as utter intolerable idiots. Vick. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 05:44:03 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats Message-ID: <36D2B0A2.E957D9F6@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Russ Massey wrote: > It's always helpful to get some input > from fans who specialise in one of the characters that you might not > do. I tend to concentrate on the first two seasons, so need reminding of > Soolin's virtues occasionally :) Actually, my interests tend to cycle from season to season, so I generally insist to myself that I start and go through from beginning to end, over and over, and find that I am usually pining for the seasons that I am not currently watching. I keep wondering whether Jenna would get along with Soolin and Dayna, or how the dynamic would shift if you had Tarrant with series A Blake and Avon. (I tend to think that Avon would go suicidal). However, Soolin is currently my favorite female character, and I don't like to see her slighted, as she is terribly underused in my (admittedly limited) experience of fanfic, and has so *much* potential. > >I notice you rather cleverly avoided giving Avon an acting score :D > > > I suppose he does play a role occasionally, as when the Liberator is > taken by Tarrant and the troopers, or on the Princess. I think he's > probably just using his default skill from his high IQ though. Actually, I was thinking of 'Assassin' when he's trying to get caught. I can never decide if that bit of truly horrendous mugging is P.D. having a bad day, or P.D. doing a really good job of Avon doing some really bad acting. > >A pity I've seemed to have missed the other scores. I'd have loved to see > >them, particularly Jenna, Vila and Blake. > > > I can forward them to you if you'd like - just let me know. Please, very much. I shall only rant if you have slighted Vila mercilessly. Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 05:58:19 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <36D2B3FB.5D87747A@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit VJC wrote: > In my personal take on Jungian psychology I've invented the Orac > complex to explain this. An Orac complex consists of but you left out the ability to trace a line through the pattern of infinity-- without giving any actual thought to the consequences of same. Mistral INTP/J with OC -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:02:14 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: mistral@ptinet.net CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <23F3F854111@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > What is Windex when it's out? > > > > Vick > > > > There is a gap in my knowledge. > > Mine too, apparently. Windex is a glass cleaning solution. Would that be different out > than in? Regional slang, I'm afraid. I've tried to cut back, it detracts from my RADA British accent. Do you live on e-mail, or do you, like myself not know enough real INTPs ? The INTP list tends to think that there are rather less INTPs in the world than the current population of the UK. That's about 1%, not 3% as rationals only comprise between 5-7% altogether. Actually, I only know one INTP other than myself, and about two suspects. Vick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:03:32 EST From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: Mary Sues (was Re: [B7L] Fannishness) Message-ID: <702ad572.36d2b534@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Neil wrote: > Avoid new characters altogether? No No NO. Fanfic needs _more_ original > characters - and I mean characters, not stick figures with silly names that > slot into the requirements of the plot. Fanfic needs real people, real > places, and real culture. Ahhh... Now I understand. Neil just doesn't get it. He hasn't understood that fanfiction is a revolutionary form of literature that allows writers to write what they want to write and read. Original characters, magnificent vistas, political environments, rich cultures have long existed in the world of pro-literature. But that obviously wasn't entirely satisfactory to some writers/readers and so fanfic was born. Primarily developed by women writing what women want to read. > They seem to > think that the series characters are the only ones of any significance, that > where these characters are, and when, is of minimal importance, or no > importance at all. And there's something wrong with that? If that's the primary interest of the writer/reader--and judging by the proliferation of such fanfiction, it does seem to meet the needs of the many--why can't it exist as a valid, acceptable form of storytelling? Fanzines can run four times the cost of a pro book with the same word count. There's a reason people are willing to pay that much more, and it isn't because they want original characters, etc., etc. > And it scares the living shit out of me. There's an easy solution to that. Return to the safe, cheaper world of professional books. And leave the revolution to us. What scares the living shit out of me is that your opinion will influence even one fledgling fanfiction writer into believing that what he/she might want to write is inferior or wrong. Fanfiction should have the scope that allows people who want grandiose vistas to write them. And if fans want two characters holding a conversation in a room where the furniture isn't even described, that's also their prerogative. Or Mary Sues. Or wallows. What fanfiction shouldn't be is a return to the dark ages, where writers feel compelled to meet anyone else's definition of what their stories should be. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:11:04 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: mistral@ptinet.net CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats Message-ID: <23F64F7689E@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > The only major characters who use their allure as a weapon in B7 are > > Servalan and Tarrant (a little), I would say. I don't see Avon as > > pretending to seduce women to get what he wants. You're right. Switching strands, as an intuative Avon would have no idea at all about his physical attractiveness. all that was real to him was his intelligence. > Hmmm, Russ. Depends on how you define seduce. Did you see Aftermath? Power? > ***Sarcophagus***? Avon's whole twisted relationship with Servalan? He > certainly was aware of his masculinity as a *weapon* in series' C and D-- > and I can offer you several plausible explanations for the apparent change, > none of which have to do with Paul Darrow being allowed more artistic > license. (Which I won't bore you with unless you really want them.) Oh, and > actually the change started very slowly in series A, and only *accelerated* > after Blake left. Paul's OTT acting, I'm afraid was all it was. That's why I have no intention of reading Avon:ATA. (especially after having the misfortune of sampling The Eye) I don't think that Paul ever really understood Avon, though now, judging by his interview on T7FC he may be getting the hang of it. Read my LOC in Horizon #40, if they're bothered to print it. Vick I like Paul - he's nice. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:15:00 EST From: Tigerm1019@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Avon: INTP or INTJ Message-ID: <336dc2ea.36d2b7e4@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-02-23 02:04:35 EST, Nina wrote: << Not necessarily. If he's near the center of the scale, the J characteristics could be more a habit of his training as a programmer. OTOH, he's WAY more of a planning type than Blake... >> I would put Avon on the border between INTP and INTJ. Which side of the line he falls on would depend on the day, his mood, how difficult Orac is being, etc. Tiger M ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:34:47 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: mistral@ptinet.net CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <23FCA3D1956@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > From: mistral@ptinet.net > Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 05:58:19 -0800 > To: B7 list > Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs > but you left out the ability to trace a line through the pattern of infinity-- > without giving any actual thought to the consequences of same. > I didn't need to. I mentioned the holistic approach. Are you a sufferer as well? Vick > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 06:47:00 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <36D2BF63.3F18F142@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit VJC wrote re the Orac Complex: > > but you left out the ability to trace a line through the pattern of infinity-- > > without giving any actual thought to the consequences of same. > > > > I didn't need to. I mentioned the holistic approach. > > Are you a sufferer as well? > > Vick Can't you tell from my posts? However, I don't think Soolin would appreciate the suggestion that the holistic approach implies disregard for consequences. :D Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:58:06 -0000 From: "Jonathan" To: Subject: [B7L] Re Myers Briggs Message-ID: <001501be6006$170004a0$e551883e@ming> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01BE6006.15EBD580" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BE6006.15EBD580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "INTPs are relatively easy-going and amenable to most anything until = their principles are violated, about which they may become outspoken and = inflexible. They prefer to return, however, to a reserved albeit benign = ambiance, not wishing to make spectacles of themselves. " [Joe Butt, = typelogic website] - this is Avon ? Vick look at the fmous intp list there and show me = *one* person who reminds you of Avon. ( Einstein ? Jung ? )Whereas : "To outsiders, INTJs may appear to project an aura of "definiteness", of = self-confidence. This self-confidence, sometimes mistaken for simple = arrogance by the less decisive, is actually of a very specific rather = than a general nature; its source lies in the specialized knowledge = systems that most INTJs start building at an early age. When it comes to = their own areas of expertise -- and INTJs can have several -- they will = be able to tell you almost immediately whether or not they can help you, = and if so, how. INTJs know what they know, and perhaps still more = importantly, they know what they don't know. INTJs are perfectionists, = with a seemingly endless capacity for improving upon anything that takes = their interest. What prevents them from becoming chronically bogged down = in this pursuit of perfection is the pragmatism so characteristic of the = type: INTJs apply (often ruthlessly) the criterion "Does it work?" to = everything from their own research efforts to the prevailing social = norms. This in turn produces an unusual independence of mind, freeing = the INTJ from the constraints of authority, convention, or sentiment for = its own sake." and=20 "Personal relationships, particularly romantic ones, can be the INTJ's = Achilles heel. While they are capable of caring deeply for others = (usually a select few), and are willing to spend a great deal of time = and effort on a relationship, the knowledge and self-confidence that = make them so successful in other areas can suddenly abandon or mislead = them in interpersonal situations. This happens in part because many = INTJs do not readily grasp the social rituals; for instance, they tend = to have little patience and less understanding of such things as small = talk and flirtation (which most types consider half the fun of a = relationship). To complicate matters, INTJs are usually extremely = private people, and can often be naturally impassive as well, which = makes them easy to misread and misunderstand. Perhaps the most = fundamental problem, however, is that INTJs really want people to make = sense. :-) " Much agreement on the Dr's, except I'd call Colin Baker's (rather = brilliant) creation difficult rather than unpleasant. Jonathan ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BE6006.15EBD580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

"INTPs are relatively easy-going and amenable to most anything = until=20 their principles are violated, about which they may become outspoken and = inflexible. They prefer to return, however, to a reserved albeit benign=20 ambiance, not wishing to make spectacles of themselves. " [Joe = Butt,=20 typelogic website]

- this is = Avon ? Vick look=20 at the fmous intp list there and show me *one* person who reminds you of = Avon. (=20 Einstein ? Jung ? )Whereas :

"To outsiders, INTJs may appear to project an = aura of=20 "definiteness", of self-confidence. This self-confidence, = sometimes=20 mistaken for simple arrogance by the less decisive, is actually of a = very=20 specific rather than a general nature; its source lies in the = specialized=20 knowledge systems that most INTJs start building at an early age. When = it comes=20 to their own areas of expertise -- and INTJs can have several -- they = will be=20 able to tell you almost immediately whether or not they can help you, = and if so,=20 how. INTJs know what they know, and perhaps still more importantly, they = know=20 what they don't know. INTJs are perfectionists, with a seemingly endless = capacity for improving upon anything that takes their interest. What = prevents=20 them from becoming chronically bogged down in this pursuit of perfection = is the=20 pragmatism so characteristic of the type: INTJs apply (often ruthlessly) = the=20 criterion "Does it work?" to everything from their own = research=20 efforts to the prevailing social norms. This in turn produces an unusual = independence of mind, freeing the INTJ from the constraints of = authority,=20 convention, or sentiment for its own sake."

and

"Personal relationships, particularly romantic = ones, can=20 be the INTJ's Achilles heel. While they are capable of caring deeply for = others=20 (usually a select few), and are willing to spend a great deal of time = and effort=20 on a relationship, the knowledge and self-confidence that make them so=20 successful in other areas can suddenly abandon or mislead them in = interpersonal=20 situations. This happens in part because many INTJs do not readily grasp = the=20 social rituals; for instance, they tend to have little patience and less = understanding of such things as small talk and flirtation (which most = types=20 consider half the fun of a relationship). To complicate matters, INTJs = are=20 usually extremely private people, and can often be naturally impassive = as well,=20 which makes them easy to misread and misunderstand. Perhaps the most = fundamental=20 problem, however, is that INTJs really want people to make sense. :-)=20 "

Much agreement on the Dr's, except I'd call Colin Baker's (rather = brilliant)=20 creation difficult rather than unpleasant.

 

Jonathan

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BE6006.15EBD580-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 15:21:59 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: "Jonathan" CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re Myers Briggs Message-ID: <240939F71AC@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > From: "Jonathan" > To: > Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:58:06 -0000 > Subject: [B7L] Re Myers Briggs > "INTPs are relatively easy-going and amenable to most anything until their principles are violated, about which they may become outspoken and inflexible. They prefer to return, however, to a reserved> > - this is Avon ? Vick look at the fmous intp list there and show me *one* person who reminds you of Avon. ( Einstein ? Jung ? )Whereas : Avon was a stressed man in a position he should never have been in. Put another INTP in his situation, and expect the same result. > "To outsiders, INTJs may appear to project an aura of "definiteness", of self-confidence. This self-confidence, sometimes mistaken for simple arrogance by the less decisive, is actually of a very spe> > and I wish you knew how to send a decently formatted e-mail. > "Personal relationships, particularly romantic ones, can be the INTJ's Achilles heel. While they are capable of caring deeply for others (usually a select few), and are willing to spend a great deal > > Much agreement on the Dr's, except I'd call Colin Baker's (rather brilliant) creation difficult rather than unpleasant. He was unpleasent for Peri, but then Peri was less than pleasant herself. > > > Jonathan > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:41:33 +0000 (GMT) From: Una McCormack To: Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Iain said: >I strongly support this suggestion, mainly because Una's just back from >NZ and a huge discussion of Myers-Briggs classifications would be such a >lovely welcome-back present for her. Git. Una ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:49:38 +0000 (GMT) From: Una McCormack To: Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII mistral@ptinet.net writes: >>So how would you recognise us INFPs? An Avon who never lost his teddy >>bear? and Calle responded: >Hmmm. The teddy bear my father gave me when I was a couple of days old >*is* sitting on a shelf a meter and a half behind me... Calle, that's just so sweet! So am I the *only* INFJ around here? Anyone else 'The Counsellor'? How depressing - I get to be naff 3rd season Cally rather than kick-ass 1st season Cally. Una ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:54:35 +0000 (GMT) From: Una McCormack To: Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Alison said: >anyway Una likes MBTI. :-P Ah, yes, that use of the word 'likes' to mean: will happily have a huge argument about it being hugely intellectually questionable. Tho' being an opinionated type, that's not stretching the meaning too far... But is is very INFJ? Una ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:12:30 +0000 (GMT) From: Una McCormack To: Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L]: Myers Briggs Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Jonathan said: >PS What would really be hard would be typing Dr Who's. I'd take #1 and #4 >as intj (#4 's brilliant plan's that as often as not overlooked a single >crucial piece of the real world would seem to be definitively intj to me, >see Heiss' site), #5 as intp, #7as infj - but #6 ? and #2 ??? Hurrah! Another INFJ!! And the McCoy Doctor too! No wonder I liked him. Una -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #76 *************************************