From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #80 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/80 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 80 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (INTJ?P) Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Alphas in heat and Choirboys Re: [B7L] Re Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Re: Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Re Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Re Myers Briggs [B7L] The INTJ list Re: [B7L] Alphas in heat and Choirboys [B7L] hello again Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs [B7L] Re: Constructive Criticism [B7L] The whole fanfic thing (was Re: Mary Sues, was Re: fannishness) Re: [B7L] Re: Mary Sues [B7L] Renaissance Re: [B7L] Myer's Briggs Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Re Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Re: Mary Sues Re: [B7L] Myers, Vila & I's Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Re: Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Re: Mary Sues Re: [B7L] fanfic/let's stop, huh? Re: [B7L] Re Myers Briggs ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:08:34 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: "Blake's 7 list" , "Alison Page" CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (INTJ?P) Message-ID: <2575C987C2E@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Here I am departing from any grounds but my own hunch. If I had to > distinguish between INTJ and INTP, here are some little hints I would look > for, based on my mates who fall into each category > > INTP - likes big games like Risk and Monopoly, dancing to music (as long as > thinks no-one is looking), I can imagine Avon being quite a good dancer. He is rather elegant. I don't dance. ( I don't like dance music) Monopoly takes too long, requires too many players, and demands termination. > messing about on the computer inventing new > things, pure maths, reading. I'm a computer technician actually, I see PC from the electronics angle rather than the application angle, though I like graphics and web site design. I like things like Boolean algebra, and number series (e.g. the Fibonacci series) but as for long division, sorry. I'm crap at pure maths. I tend to read a lot of books, but not finish them, very often the same goes for writing. Currently I am in the process of reading 'More Than Human', by Theodore Sturgeon, Doctor Who New Adventure : 'The Dimension Riders' by Daniel Blythe,' The Long Dark Tea Time of the Soul' by Douglas Adams and 'Interesting Times' by Terry Pratchett. Other than that theres the Win 95 reg edit manual, various genre magazines, Techno Quest (I never file them!) and the history of the Bauhaus. With reference books, I tend to start at the back and work backward. > When you tell them something says 'Hmm, but..' Hmm, but... Yes, we do like to split hairs. > A bit out of it. Tends to let things run along. I'm only out of it when I'm concentrating. I wouldn't like to give up a habit of a lifetime. I only let things run along when they wouldn't benefit from my insight. I've belonged to a couple of clubs (one video camera club, and a sci-fi club), which certainly did. However, they didn't appreciate it much as I brought down the sci-fi club by introducing the concept of the existence of British telefantasy and denouncing Star Trek ideals, as for the video camera club, I was kicked out for getting proposed for the commitee without ever bothering to pay the membership fee. When they realised I wasn't a legal member, the said Bye Bye! > INTJ - likes complex games like chess, Chess, again requires an opponent, I know no-one worthy. >listening to music, I like the Manic Street Preachers and Radiohead. I don't like unintelligent 'pop' groups, or rappers. >working on the computer to complete projects, But a project has to be *worthy* of completion. >science, hasn't got time to read, when you tell them something says >'I already knew that'. Everyone has time to read. You do it when you should be sleeping. I'm not saying I'm a know all, but I can admit to my lack of knowledge in certain areas. Someone defined the INTP as 'a thinker who asks' and an INTJ as 'a thinker who *knows*'. That makes us the more open minded at least, and less likely to come unstuck. After all, you know what Thought did. He thought he hadn't shit himself, and he had. >Not out of it at all. Tends > to get stuck in. INTPs in their obsessive stage get stuck *right* in. > Oh here's another one. INTJ - hates getting into debt. INTP - quite > insouciant about it. Why not. Money is, after all, at best a theoretical entity. > Where this gets us in relation to Avon I have no idea. I tend to think the > 'impending sense of doom' thing is a bit of a red herring. I can explain his P-ness with referance to the Great Bank Fraud. This is something I would love to do! But not for the reasons most people believe. Vast weath, for a start does not come into it, and neither does politics. Avon uses the 'undermining of the Federation credit system' as a rationalisation in 'Rumours', but he's lying to himself. It's a case of making his folly respectable. The reason that Avon carried it out was the same reason that a mountain climber climbs a mountain. Simply to see if they can. Avon needed to prove to himself his intellegence, as it was his only reality and the only thing he could believe in and rely on. Involving other people got him caught, but unfortuanately for Avon, being extremely clever is no good unless someone can tell you how clever you are. He involved Anna, Anna sold him out. I can see me doing exactly the same thing, and being the textbook INTP that I am, I will never learn by my mistakes. Vick I know Avon is as INTP, because I'm his reincarnation. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:15:48 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: Iain Coleman CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <2577B480E34@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > If the measurements don't quite fit the theory, change the theory. > > (That last sentence is as succint a definition of science as you'll ever > get.) Not for an INTP. If the facts don't fit the theory, damn the facts. Vick. This is my truth, tell me yours. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:18:13 +0000 From: Russ Massey To: Mac4781@aol.com Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Alphas in heat and Choirboys Message-ID: In message , Mac4781@aol.com writes >Russ is being incredibly Tarrant perceptive (do I sense that a Tarrant Nostra >button would like to have his name on it? ): > How dare you! I'm a respectable fan, I am! > >Exactly! Implying that Tarrant is a choirboy isn't meant to imply that he's a >eunuch choirboy. The youthful choirboys of my youthful school days had >perfectly healthy libidos. Choirboy, to me, implies exactly what you wrote >above. He has fantasies bu he doesn't thrust his groin in people's noses. > Much like Vila, in fact. Vila makes no secret of his desire for female companionship, but always makes sure that anything he says can be taken as a joke to avoid giving offence. Tarrant is similarly cautious, though with less overt humour. Is it just me, or does Blake seem to show no interest in the opposite sex at all. -- Russ Massey Sirius Games, 161 Montague Street, Worthing, West Sussex BN11 3BZ (01903 217334) http://www.wriding.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:26:40 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: mistral@ptinet.net CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re Myers Briggs Message-ID: <257A9E4160A@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT >(And IMHO, more Einstein than Hannibal Lecter). Since INTPs are predisposed to an intersest in psychology, and Hannible Lecter was a psychiatrist, INTP is not out of the question for him as well. Admittedly though, Myers Briggs is meant to be appied to mentally healthy individuals, rather than raging psychos. Maybe if we could study Lecter in his natural environment, we'd see a few more P tendances. He was a good artist, (lapsing on the metaphysical in an almost Jungian way) and that's what P's have more of - creativity. Vick 'I ate his liver with some french fries and a diet coke.' ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:30:31 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Myers Briggs Message-ID: <257BA27497C@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Alison told me what I was, > but I've forgotten. And then I got bored. > You must by an SJ. Vick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:40:55 +0000 (GMT) From: Iain Coleman To: VJC Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 24 Feb 1999, VJC wrote: > > If the measurements don't quite fit the theory, change the theory. > > > > (That last sentence is as succint a definition of science as you'll ever > > get.) > > > Not for an INTP. If the facts don't fit the theory, damn the facts. > It seems pretty much everyone in the hard sciences is INT*. Speaking as a theorist myself, I'd say that intellectually I believe theories must change to fit the facts, but my gut reaction is often, as you say, damn the facts if the theory is nice. It's always a bit sad when a beautiful theory is falsified by brute fact, but it's something to which one hardens ones heart. I suspect you're much the same as me in that regard: I presume you don't really believe that (e.g.) the Earth is approximately 6000 years old. Iain ------------------------------ Date: 24 Feb 1999 15:41:28 +0100 From: Calle Dybedahl To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re Myers Briggs Message-ID: "VJC" writes: > Admittedly though, Myers Briggs is meant to be appied to mentally > healthy individuals, rather than raging psychos. Doesn't that mean that the whole discussion about Avon's type is rather pointless? ;-) /practicing for Redemption -- Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se Maintainer of the Blake's 7 mailing list. Mail for info. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:42:00 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <63a41c92.36d40fb8@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/23/99 8:44:44 PM Mountain Standard Time, avona@jps.net writes: << Ah! But about the only time I've ever missed deadline on a paper was when all my markers fell out of my book and I had to redo all the research-- and I missed the deadline only by hours. I pace if anyone is more than half an hour late for anything. I go frantic at work if I can't meet my own self-appointed timetable for getting my days work done. It's only when I really have to step off into the great unknown, like becoming self-employed, that I second guess myself to death. I'm also the first person to choose food from a menu, and the one who usually has to make the decisions about where to go and what to do when everyone is so busy deferring to everyone else, no one will express an opinion. >> Well, you're definitely more J than I am. Of course, that's not hard, since I consistently test out 95+% P. Nina "Life is difficult for the organizationally impaired." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:41:58 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <196f6b62.36d40fb6@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/23/99 7:26:05 PM Mountain Standard Time, Lisa.Darby@anu.edu.au writes: << the discussion seems to indicate that Js are neat and organised planner types >> I've always thought of J's as just being goal-oriented, more or less. They like to complete things (as opposed to us P's, who couldn't care less once we understand the thing) The organization stuff is just a means of getting there, rather than the goal itself. Is that a better fit? Nina ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:06:15 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: mistral@ptinet.net CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re Myers Briggs Message-ID: <25852A66A8C@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Not creativity -- flexibility. The J ability to make decisions also > sometimes enhances creativity. I would agree with you if you were right. Yes, we are flexible. But why do you think we were dubbed Architects? We treat society in the same way as Howard Roark's raw material. If that isn't creative, I don't know what is. Flexibility suggests that *it* changes us. Vick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:09:19 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] The INTJ list Message-ID: <2585FCC6447@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I've worked out how you get off of the INTJ list. They find out you're an INTP, then chuck you off. Vick Please prove my theory. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:11:46 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Alphas in heat and Choirboys Message-ID: <36D416B1.A165616E@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Russ Massey wrote: > How dare you! I'm a respectable fan, I am! You oxymoron, you :D > Is it just me, or does Blake seem to > show no interest in the opposite sex at all. It's not just you. Mistral (who really is going to answer your lovely, thought provoking post eventually) -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:59:00 -0000 From: "Debra Collard" To: "B7L" Cc: "space city" Subject: [B7L] hello again Message-ID: <000101be600e$d337a300$b52f883e@whisson1globalnet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have managed to sort out my mail problem and have now re subbed. If anyone has sent me any private mail since the 21st can you please re send as I lost all my messages over a 36 hour period. Now, what are we talking about on list? Debra ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:52:11 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats Message-ID: <36D42E3B.663D@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Russ Massey wrote: > > writes > >Russ, where have you been, when he kissed Cally/alien in 'Sarcophogus'? > > Making the coffee. Every single time :) > > Okay, okay, I concede that in that instance, when he had to save his > life and their was a being practically gagging for him he went along > with her and made cow-eyes. There. Happy now? I still say he made a > very bad job of it, and only the alien's bizarre taste gave him a chance > of success... Bizarre taste? Russ, I sense a little troll in you. After all, probably about 2/3rds of the women on this list would say the alien had rather good taste, and that Avon made a very yummy-looking job of that kiss. > > >And what of his little charm dances with Servalan? I don't think he > >finds her the least bit appealling. She's vulgar, by the standards I > >think he has. > > I'm not sure we can draw too many conclusions about his taste from > the one canonical relationship (Anna) that we see. Servalan's no > sophisticate in some ways, but she's intelligent, sensual, driven and > ruthless. I think Avon sees all these qualities in himself and is drawn to > Servalan as the dark mirror of his own soul (whoops, straying into > fanfic purple prose - at least I didn't use the word 'tortured'!) True. I'm an A/C person, though, and I notice there are similairities between Cally and Anna, leading me to think that there may be a pattern. > > > But _she_ apparently finds _him_ attractive. > > Or at least he has useful talents and it's convenient to apparently find > him attractive. I think that's the case until season three.\ I don't see the charm dance as beginning at all until season 3. I admit, these events are ambiguous. > > > So he uses > >that, to draw her out, get her to talk, learn your enemy to defeat your > >enemy. He wouldn't go all the way, I don't think, but the use of feigned > >attraction is something he definitely understand. In fact, it's another > >way of 'lying without lying'. > > > He never seems to try it on women who *aren't* already attracted to > him. Of course, it may be he's never met one :) LOL! I think that's a matter of INT behavior. It's one thing to be intrigued by the effect one has on a member of the opposite sex, it's another thing to go out of ones way to cause it. I've really got to get to one of the big B7 cons one day and see how my 'Servalan' act goes over. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:59:10 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <36D42FDE.4420@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Iain Coleman wrote: > > This whole debate about whether or not Avon is J or P may have an > interesting resolution. In the course of all the discussion, it seems that > many people (like myself) who test unambiguously INT* are borderline J/P, > and that it's tricky to make the distinction between INTJ and INTP. > Perhaps this is telling us that it's not worth making those distinctions > in a broad classification like this, and it would be better just to lump > all the INT* together in a single class. By George, I think Iain may have _got_ it! This notion makes sense to me, but maybe it's just because I am borderline. I want to get the "Understand Me" book to go more in depth, because I definitely identify with the short definition of J rather than P, but perhaps these represent stages of the decision making process, from an INT point of view. Is there anyone so strongly typed on the J/P scale they can give us a different perspective? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:44:45 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <36D42C7E.6B89@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathryn Andersen wrote: > > Regarding Avon as INTP - what about his strong willpower? I'm > thinking "Deathwatch" here: "I will not go to sleep, I will not go to > sleep..." I love the willpower thing! I identify with him _so_ strongly there. > > And just because Avon gets fascinated by interesting things, doesn't > mean he has to be a P -- Js surely delve and get fascinated too? I recall in the J description, that J's, in working with a group, really listen to everyone's input because they want to get all perspectives, info, etc, before putting things together. S o there is, presumably, generally an information gathering phase in which a J may act P-like. Also, in the case of the airlock option in the London-- it was obviously a bad option. Going to Cygnus Alpha was also a bad option. I would think Avon didn't 'dither over it for months', but rather, consider it, see the flaw, then put it aside as he struggled to think of some option C that wouldn't get him killed. > I doubt we will agree on this, considering that fans have taken Avon's > actions on Horizon to mean completely opposite things: either that he > was a bastard who would have abandoned them except that he was forced > into rescuing them, or as a non-bastard who freely chose to rescue > them when he realized he wanted to after all. I can simply not see that he was out of time. At the distance those pursuit ships were, running would have been a far safer option than going down. But as you say, people won't be changing their opinions at this date. --Avona ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:06:31 -0500 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] Re: Constructive Criticism Message-ID: <199902241306_MC2-6BAC-2C4E@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Neil told Russ: >You won't be there? That's a shame. Your presence will be sadly missed. > >Not by me, of course, but I'm sure someone will miss you. Well, I had hoped to find out how old he thought I looked (ie am I over the hill as a guerrilla fighter?). I'll just have to ask for his estimate in public now, I suppose. (His memory may have edited out some of my wrinkles since Redemption.) Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:06:29 -0500 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] The whole fanfic thing (was Re: Mary Sues, was Re: fannishness) Message-ID: <199902241306_MC2-6BAC-2C4D@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Neil wrote, about his Hunter: >The story as a whole was an attempt to see if B7 >could be translated into the action movie format >without compromising the essential strengths of > the series. Well, it was one of the few fanfic stories I've ever read (of course, I haven't read many) that I could imagine being made into an episode (a couple of Suzan Lovetts might qualify), so I suppose you succeeded. This is not to say that fanfic stories which I can't imagine as episodes have failed, as very few of them could have been intended to have such a purpose, and the other purposes are perfectly valid. I really ought to subscribe to AltaZine, but I never get round to it. Neil is welcome to approach me this weekend to demand money with menaces. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:38:15 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Mary Sues Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Wed 24 Feb, Mac4781@aol.com wrote: > Neil wrote: > > > So the answer to your question is no, not all that many. As I reckon you > > expected. But then I never claimed to be a fanfic junkie. > > Yes, this is what I expected. Thank you, I couldn't have said it better. You > aren't a fanfic junkie. With the hundreds of B7 zines that are available and > your length of time in fandom, you haven't purchased many zines. He's got over 30 by my instant count and those include some of the best around - D+U is excellent. That's actually quite a lot by some standards. You also didn't ask how many he'd read. More, I know, than he owns. I feel that you're missing the point of some of what Neil is saying - not that it really matters - you have the right to interpret it as you wish. I suspect that it helps that I know him and generally know where he's coming from. I also learnt years ago never to take general points personally. The point that you miss is that Neil is not saying you have to write his way; he is expressing his opinion as to the type of story he would like to see. Would you please explain to me the essential difference between saying 'I wish people would write more Avon/Tarrant stories' and saying 'I wish people would write stories that make a serious attempt to develop a valid sociological background for the series'? I'm not an Avon/Tarrant fan (except on rare occasions) but you won't hear me moaning every time you rave about the pairing. I listen and occasionally find things that I can like about Tarrant and may work into a story at some point. Neil is a brat, but if you listen rather than reacting, then you might understand more and even find something that could be worked into a story to improve it. (Has it ever occurred to you that one of the strengths of 'Duty' is that it has a worked out culture as part of the story background and some strong original characters? I'm not saying that Neil would like the story, but it does at least partially relate to what he was discussing.) Judith PS. And the thing I like most about Neil is that I can call him a brat and know that he will take no offence whatsoever. I can just imagine the reaction if I addressed some of my other friends on this list by similar epithets. -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:33:19 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List cc: Space City Subject: [B7L] Renaissance Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII After a snarl-up at the copy shop (the copier was playing up intermittantly and they didn't spot the fault until I complained), I now have a replacement batch of Renaissance with good crisp print, just in time for Redemption. This is Diane Holland's novel. It's set in Renaissance Italy and is a wonderful tale with lots of angst and an interesting dollop of history thrown in for good measure. Art is by Val Westall. There's a colour cover, an inside colour plate and lots of black and white illustrations. This is going to appeal to Avon, Blake and Vila fans. Renaissance is a genzine and sex has no part to play in the story, but it falls into that category of genzine that is often also enjoyed by slash fans because of the strong character relationships. It's available from me (though I won't mail any out until I've recovered from Redemption so they may be about a week slower than usual) and will of course be available in America and Australia via Linda Knights, Pat Fenech and Maverick Press (contact them for their prices - contact details are on my web page). 7.20 pounds UK, 8.20 pounds Europe, 9.20 pounds/$17 cash USA, 9.70 pounds Aus/NZ Cheques (in UK pounds only) should be payable to Judith Proctor, 28 Diprose Rd, Corfe Mullen, Wimborne, Dorset, BH21 3QY. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:34:54 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Myer's Briggs Message-ID: <36D4383D.9A6EFEB2@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lisa Williams wrote: > The MB test (the real thing, not the quick'n'dirty estimators available on > the Keirsey site) is widely used in the business world, where taking it is > generally not all that voluntary (it gets imposed on employees in quite a > few companies.) When samples are taken across a broad spectrum of people, > INTs form a very small proportion of the whole -- I think it was 2% or less. Although that sampling is not representative of the population as a whole, from some of the things I've read, as NTs tend not to fit into the business world very well, and take up other kinds of occupations. I've read things that suggest total NT's of about 12-15% of the population, with INTP and INTJ at about 2-3% each (IMHO much closer to plausible). Crossing that with other things I've read recently, if personality is genetically linked, as research is beginning to indicate, this 12-15% NT becomes a much more realistic set of numbers, and should be given weight over what is potentially a very skewed sampling, Es and Ss doing so much better in group settings, and therefore probably overrepresented in the type of businesses that would use Myers-Briggs on employees (said businesses being more team oriented). IMHO Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:34:45 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <36D44645.E881C20B@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathryn Andersen wrote: > Regarding Avon as INTP - what about his strong willpower? I'm > thinking "Deathwatch" here: "I will not go to sleep, I will not go to > sleep..." I'm inclined to think that most people of all types would exert some pretty strong willpower when the alternative is an unwanted death, actual or mental. > And just because Avon gets fascinated by interesting things, doesn't > mean he has to be a P -- Js surely delve and get fascinated too? > (I just realized another bit of evidence that I'm a J - I like to get > things *finished* and I'm happier after a decision than before it) Actually, I think you are *definitely* a J, you converse that way. I also think that you just proved Avon's not-- he agonizes over decisions as much or more after they're made than before-- that doesn't have to paralyze him into acting on the decision, just means he's not happy about it. And he seems to be happiest of all when naysaying Blake-- having no responsibility for decision-making at all; which is why they made such a good team, with Blake feeling and deciding, and Avon thinking and cautioning. > Yeah, his *behaviour* is mixed. The question is, what is inherent > tendency, and what is learned habit? > What about Horizon? Is he dithering over a decision, or merely > trying to get all the facts before coming to a decision? > When he *does* decide, he acts pretty promptly - but is that because > he has no time to do otherwise? > Or was he relieved that he had finally decided what he was going to > do? IMHO dithering. There were no facts to get. He could have taken the Liberator at any point after 'Redemption' and he knew it, at least subconciously. All the pursuit ships did was force him to make the decision (P). The laughter was at the absurdity of the fact that after all his protestations to the others about not wanting to be with them, he did want to, after all. That was an F/T struggle, NTs rarely making F decisions if they can avoid it. All the facts said he should go, friendship made him stay. He was facing his commitment to Blake (and the others)-- something he'd never done before. Two eps later in 'Trial' Vila accuses him of being led and he counters 'I shall continue to follow'. That, IMHO is a very different Avon. Yes, he still wants the Liberator, but he's realized now that he's not willing to stab Blake in the back to get it. INTJs and INTPs are both very commited to relationships, but, Js having the edge in decision-making, INTPs are *much* slower to commit, and *never* let go, since the search for suitable emotional intimates is so difficult for them. Also, INTPs like to turn your own words against you . Mistral (who wishes Avon were INTJ but is perceptive enough to realize he's not) -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:43:24 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Re Myers Briggs Message-ID: <36D4484B.796C7D5@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Calle Dybedahl wrote: > "VJC" writes: > > > Admittedly though, Myers Briggs is meant to be appied to mentally > > healthy individuals, rather than raging psychos. > > Doesn't that mean that the whole discussion about Avon's type is > rather pointless? ;-) Oh Calle, if you weren't the listmom and therefore necessary, I should have to search up some Meegats to send after you. I thought you were supposed to be an F? You might as well call all us INTxs psycho, as he *is* such an archetype. Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:57:06 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <36D45991.CEE9C70C@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Iain Coleman wrote: > This whole debate about whether or not Avon is J or P may have an > interesting resolution. In the course of all the discussion, it seems that > many people (like myself) who test unambiguously INT* are borderline J/P, > and that it's tricky to make the distinction between INTJ and INTP. > Perhaps this is telling us that it's not worth making those distinctions > in a broad classification like this, and it would be better just to lump > all the INT* together in a single class. Iain, that is a terrifying thought. Since one of the whole points of personality theory is to understand oneself and others, that idea would eliminate an enormous lot of useful information for those of us to whom such information is relevant and helpful. The very fact that so many INTxs are borderline is enormously instructive, and offers an opportunity to examine so many other questions relating to why this is so. Let's not agree to call a gravity vortex a black hole. :D As an INTP, who only recently has understood the P/J distinction with any degree of success, the understanding has been extremely helpful for me in understanding both myself and others. In other words, INTP=like me, INTJ=like me except. P behaviour can be frustrating to Js, and even though I'm only slightly P, I frequently find J behaviour downright scary! I *need* that sort of distinction, if only to reassure myself that I am *not* as crazy as the rest of the world thinks. > This is how any measuring method works: you start with some kind of > method, and by using it find out its inadequacies and improve it. The > Myers-Briggs test is clearly measuring _something_ (for example, the > online community does not have the same proportions of types as the > general population), but there's no reason to think that what it's > measuring is perfectly captured by the underlying theory. If the > measurements don't quite fit the theory, change the theory. Yes, but sometimes the refinement needs to be a band-aid, not an amputation. Surely the people having the discussion are the people interested in the distinction? Hmm. I'd better stop now, or Calle will have me trying to figure out how to find the spin list. Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:21:42 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <36D45144.105F31B0@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lisa Williams wrote: > mistral@ptinet.net wrote: > > >Actually, for an INTP, I'm not very creative (of course, I think actually > INTJs > >are supposed to have the edge there). > > Not really; creativity is tied mostly closely to the N trait, so it's more > a matter of how N you are. INTPs and INTJs both exhibit creativity, though > in somewhat different styles. And you're absolutely right; however, since creativity *is* tied to the N trait, and the preferred function of INTJs is N, while the preferred function of INTPs is T, that tied to the J ability of choosing among options would seem to give INTJs an edge on creativity. Or perhaps I should say *productive* creativity. We INTPs are too butterfly-like in our interests to be real creators, more's the pity. I say, you're very good at this, particularly for a J. 8-D Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:55:20 -0600 From: "Lorna B." To: "Lysator List" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Mary Sues Message-Id: <199902241956.NAA25096@pemberton.magnolia.net> Judith said: >He's got over 30 by my instant count and those include some of the best around - >D+U is excellent. In your opinion, perhaps. Personally, I prefer the Southern Sevens and a number of Gambits to any of the Horizon zines and most of the others listed. I'm sure many of us have our own preferences for "the best around." >The point that you miss is that Neil is not saying you have to write his way; he >is expressing his opinion as to the type of story he would like to see. > >Would you please explain to me the essential difference between saying 'I wish >people would write more Avon/Tarrant stories' and saying 'I wish people would >write stories that make a serious attempt to develop a valid sociological >background for the series'? Judith, take that last sentence above and tack "all else is crap" onto the end of it. That's what I get from Neil's posts regarding fanfic. Maybe he honestly doesn't mean it that way, but that's what's coming across (and apparently not just to me). From now on, I will follow his suggestion to ignore everything he says. Lorna B. "Cookies and porn? You're the best mom ever!" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:27:11 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers, Vila & I's Message-ID: <36D4609E.86DEE352@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tramila wrote: > I admit to feeling a little > bit out in left field on this list. (ie, I feel like a fish out of water.) > It is a truly strange feeling to be an extrovert in a predominately > introvert list. Tramila, please!!!!!! You can't *say* that to a bunch of INTs and run away. How *exactly* does it feel? Surely you don't mean to say that you're intimidated by us? How do you view the difference between extrovert list behaviour and introvert list behaviour? Come baaaaaaaaaaaack!! (Or are you as cowardly as Vila pretends to be )? Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:18:58 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <36D45EB2.161428D1@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit VJC wrote: > P.S. Why does your signiture quote Vila? Surely that's less than > appropriate for an INTP. Because I adore Vila. Vila does not get enough attention. My favorite thing about B7 is the way Avon and Vila make me laugh. Plenty of people quote Avon in their sig files, so I chose Vila. For now. And because, like Vila, I frequently say the wrong thing and offend people -- more often with my wording than my ideas, because I don't word things carefully enough. Sometimes though, with my ideas, too, which tend to be a bit unusual. So this particular quote is to keep me humble. Also to let people know that I don't mean to be offensive (well, most of the time, anyway). And the other reason is because I'm trying to tempt Tramila to come out and play. As frequently as possible. Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:31:38 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Myers Briggs Message-ID: <36D461AA.9DD8A1CC@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harriet Monkhouse wrote: > Mistral wrote: > >but you left out the ability to trace a line through > >the pattern of infinity-- without giving any actual > >thought to the consequences of same. > > But I keep telling you all, Orac knows perfectly well what the consequences > will be: he says Blake's trail ENDS on Gauda Prime. They've just forgotten > to ask all the relevant questions, as they so often do. You are absolutely right, Harriet. You do not *have* an Orac complex; you *are* Orac. ;-P Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:49:25 EST From: Mac4781@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Mary Sues Message-ID: <286515d1.36d465d5@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Judith wrote: > Would you please explain to me the essential difference between saying 'I > wish > people would write more Avon/Tarrant stories' and saying 'I wish people > would > write stories that make a serious attempt to develop a valid sociological > background for the series'? I'd be happy to explain. The problem (from my pov) is the way Neil is expressing himself. It doesn't come across as a personal opinion, it comes across as judgmental. For instance: > As to which (if either) is 'better' - the panoramic group shot is probably > more likely to come out satisfactorily, since it can balance its gains and > losses. The close-up is more hit-or-miss, all-or-nothing. It has to get > everything in focus in order to work. Not better or worse, but perhaps more > prone to failure. Now if Neil had said "in order to work for me," I'd have understood that he was expressing a personal opinion. And it would have also indicated to me that he acknowledges there are equally valid, dissenting opinions about fanfic. But the way the above was worded, and the way the majority of his comments about the merit or lack of merit in fanfiction are worded, it comes across as pontificating. And that's why I felt compelled to speak up. Whether Neil is aware of it or nor, whether you are aware of it or not, there are many very sensitive fan writers out there. And some of them could very well misinterpret Neil's opinion as the only correct opinion and feel very discouraged about their efforts. I have three very good friends, skilled writers, veteran writers, who were criticized by a writer no where near as talented as they are. Their self confidences were so badly shaken that it was an effort to coax each of them to write again. Now if that can happen to three skilled, veteran writers, I shuddered to think what Neil's pronouncements were doing to sensitive neophyte writers whose visions of fanfiction might be different from his. I felt compelled to speak out before other fragile writing egos were damaged. > I'm not an Avon/Tarrant fan (except on rare occasions) but you won't hear me > moaning every time you rave about the pairing. If Neil had been raving about stories he liked, pairings he liked, writing gimmicks he liked, I would have had no objection. In fact, I'd have been delighted. I like to see all types of fanfiction encouraged. But many of his comments, the ones I object to, were on what fan writers were doing wrong (according to his tastes). > Neil is a brat, I suspect this is a great deal of the problem. I expect adults to be past the brat stage. > but if you listen rather than reacting, then you might > understand more and even find something that could be worked into a story to > improve it. (Has it ever occurred to you that one of the strengths of 'Duty' > is > that it has a worked out culture as part of the story background and some > strong original characters? That's the point. I think fan writers can and do write stories that are every bit as polished as professional writers, but with the added emotional intensity of fanfic. They do it because they've developed the skills and because they want to. Those stories have evolved without the advice of a self-designated fanfiction critic. Fanfic can be as challenging as an individual writer wants to make it. But it can be a lot less polished and complex and still succeed as fanfic. And readers' tastes and tolerances vary widely. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder; it's not in the eye of a single critic. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:14:00 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] fanfic/let's stop, huh? Message-ID: <012c01be604b$a4e2e720$8016ac3e@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since the discussion on the supposed merits or lack of in fanfiction seems to be generating a certain amount of needless ill-feeling, what say we drop it before it gets further out of hand? Neil ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:46:23 PST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re Myers Briggs Message-ID: <19990225014624.24310.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain > I thought you were supposed to be an F? Maybe it's short for "frazzled". I know that holds true for me at the moment. Regards Joanne (looking for an axe for reprogramming purposes) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #80 *************************************