From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #84 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/84 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 84 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] everything RE: [B7L] Myers Briggs (New Definitions!) [B7L] Re: Avon: J or P? Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (New Definitions!) Re: [B7L] Total confusion... (Avon & Vena?) Re: [B7L] Career change? [B7L] PD was on TV Re: [B7L] Run for the hills... Re: [B7L] Career change? Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats ( really long) Re: [B7L] Allure, Power Games and Tarrant the sex beast. Re: [B7L] Re: Mary Sues [B7L] Allure Def? & bits (was Re:Allure, Power Games and Tarrant...) [B7L] Zine help? was Re: Mary Sues Re: [B7L] Career change? Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Career change? Re: [Betty Ragan ] Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Re: Avon: J or P? [B7L] Avon & Vena (was Re:Allure...) Re: [B7L]Allure, Power Games etc. Re: [B7L] Total confusion... (Avon & Vena?) Re: [B7L] Myers, Vila & I's Re: [B7L] Zine help? was Re: Mary Sues ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:50:11 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] everything Message-ID: <36D63609.6D1F@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathryn Andersen wrote: > > Whee! This is fun! > This list is being a whirlwind of stimulating and witty conversation. > > You folk are great! > Whee! > > (Kathryn attempting an extrovert-style post as previously demonstrated > by Tramila, whose other name ought to be Tigger, with all that > bouncing) > (But I really do mean it. This is fun.) Oh! Yes! I can't remember when I've ever been with a group where So many people have such INTERESTING things to say! ::does the happy dance:: ::big hug for Tramila:: See? We want you to feel right at home. TTFN ::bouncing away for her shower:: --Avona ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:28:12 +0100 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: RE: [B7L] Myers Briggs (New Definitions!) Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F10FB4D@NL-ARN-MAIL01> Content-Type: text/plain Avona wrote: > Okay, this, I think is an important distinction. An SJ wants their OUTER > world organized. An NJ wants their INNER world organized? Doesn't that > fit both with the theory, and with general observation? > You have obviously never seen my house or desk. I think I got that S on Meyers Briggs, because it's constant change that bothers me. Particularly change without any actual reason, as it is just as tiring to me as contact with other people (the I thingy). When there is a good reason, I can support or even initiate change with the best of them, but I never saw the point in spending an entire day moving furniture around just to see how it looks when the couch is in front of the window or something. My mother does this sort of thing all the time and I've had to forcibly restrain her from doing it to my house all the time, too. But as for picking things up after myself: a lot of my female colleagues tell me I remind them of their husbands in this respect . Jacqueline ISTJ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 02:04:50 PST From: "Rob Clother" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Avon: J or P? Message-ID: <19990226100450.21688.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain ><< How many people on this list actually vote for eack camp? > Let's have a show of hands. > >> >I think he's INTP. I say beware of false dichotomies. -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:27:29 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: Helen Krummenacker CC: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (New Definitions!) Message-ID: <284B0536B2F@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I would put the NTs and NFs together, becuse they work as a sharp contrast to the P and J sensates, as Intuition is a form of perception in its own right. It also renders the INTx J/P argument redundant. My own thought on this is, as a P, I'm allowed to show certain Jishness. A true J would never show any Pishness at all. Vick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:45:44 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: mistral@ptinet.net CC: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Total confusion... (Avon & Vena?) Message-ID: <284FECB4AE2@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Mistal wrote: > Compare the way that he watches Vena when he talks to her with the way he > glances at other people -- looks at, looks away, etc., throughout series D. > Watches Vena very quietly. Looks deep into her eyes. Appears to feel more > regret at the pain Muller's death causes her than at the loss of Muller as > an asset. Very much a P trait. We have an extraverted feeling function, in the INTJs feeling is buried. We do not feel the pain ourselves, but we see the reflection of the pain in others, in this way we suddenly become thoughtful, considerate people. Besides, Muller's robot was such a good conselation prize for Avon. Vick. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 03:49:50 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Career change? Message-ID: <36D68A5C.9DE4693F@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pherber@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 2/24/99 11:07:12 PM Mountain Standard Time, > mistral@ptinet.net writes: > > > LOL!!! Pocket protectors are for engineers, not techno-wizards. Avon doesn't > > need > > anything in his pockets, his brain holds it all. > > Techno-wizard? Hmmm...Now there's a thought - Avon as a technomage! They'd > have to give up the no-hair rule, though. (And which team would get him in > the cricket match?) 'Fraid I can't get the credit/blame for this one. The idea came from a posting about the upcoming JMS series Crusade; the characters are apparently rather similar to the B7 crew, with the techno-mage approximating Avon, intersecting a comment from one of Keirsey's books about INTPs being scientists whose secret desire is to be wizards.... not even a tiny stretch, eh? But B7 gets him in the cricket match! Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:08:43 -0000 From: Anne Lane To: "'B7'" Subject: [B7L] PD was on TV Message-ID: <01BE6180.CFE8C800.aplane@tesco.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A pleasant surprise while packing for Redemption: caught the last half hour of When The Boat Comes In on UK Gold and there was a very young and handsome Paul playing an upper class army officer. Not sure when it was made - 70 -72? Unfortunately not repeated later in the day. Anne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 07:35:36 EST From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Run for the hills... Message-ID: <239a5631.36d69518@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I'm a little, or possibly a lot, behind on some e-mail. Anyhow, here are some totally trivial comments. Feel free to skip if your time is scarce. Joanne shared some more filks and I tried to sing parts of the one. (Fortunately, no one was home to have to listen at the time.) Mind you, I've not a clue what the tune for "Gough" is, so I metered in other songs that seemed to fit: > Roj > (tune: Gough, by The Whitlams) > > Here's a story about a man named Roj > Who wanted his freedom so very much > He liked engineering, held his head high > And he hated the Feds but he didn't know why No doubt because of the "Here's a story" beginning, I sang this verse to the tune of The Beverly Hillbillies theme. Try it, except for the second line, where some syllables have to be drawn out, it works pretty well. > There's a man in the tunnels tonight > His name is Roj Blake, he was doing alright > Until he remembered events of the past > That's when he should've got out of there fast Again because of the opening line, this reminded me of near the end of Blood Brothers where the narrator is singing about "the man in the streets with a gun tonight" (which I've always thought woud make a nifty Avon on GP short music vid. > Out on the surface Bran Foster died > Shame, Tarrant, shame, but we all cried Dev Tarrant, that is. Don't anyone try to fill in "Del" here. > It's for you, Roj etc. > Days of swine and losses Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:21:04 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: mistral@ptinet.net CC: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Career change? Message-ID: <286956666D8@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > Techno-wizard? Hmmm...Now there's a thought - Avon as a technomage! They'd > > have to give up the no-hair rule, though. (And which team would get him in > > the cricket match?) Not to sure about the hair. Have you *seen* Paul lately? I think he'd make a great Technomage, JMS should sign him up. > 'Fraid I can't get the credit/blame for this one. The idea came from a posting > about the upcoming JMS series Crusade; the characters are apparently rather > similar to the B7 crew, with the techno-mage approximating Avon, intersecting a > comment from one of Keirsey's books about INTPs being scientists whose secret > desire is to be wizards.... not even a tiny stretch, eh? But B7 gets him in the > cricket match! I have to agree with the 'desire to be wizards' part. I'd decorate my room with sculls and crows and dribbly candles, but I'm afraid that my mother would have me committed to an asylum. Vick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:34:21 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: Helen Krummenacker CC: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats ( really long) Message-ID: <286CF1240E4@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > NTs dress like nerds. The only clothes in Liberator's locker in > > Avon's size were sexy. Otherwise he'd have stayed with the prison > > uniform, but it was beginning to stink. > This is a horrid stereotype. What are NTs? Rational and practical. Is it > practical to look like a nerd? No. Everyone sneers and laughs at you. I was being funny actually, but I don't think that you got the joke. If Avon was a nerd he'd wear cordroy flares, a Star Trek T-shirt, and have his spectcles held together with gaffer tape. Avon has the *best* dress sense on the show, so I know who's style I'd emulate. I look good in black, white taffeta isn't practicle for an everyday commuter. Vick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:03:28 EST From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Allure, Power Games and Tarrant the sex beast. Message-ID: <7390e4f6.36d6b7c0@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Russ wrote: > Or insulting Tarrant at a Tarrant Nostra meeting... You've heard about our ritual executions then... About Pella not objecting to Avon's kiss: > Actually she might have perceived the act of objecting to be a tacit > admission of weakness, and so avoided it. Not much point objecting > unless you can back up your refusal to go along with some form of > force that could cow Avon. Ooohhh, I love that bit of insight. It works for me. Pella wasn't the type who would want to show weakness before a "Hommick." And she didn't appear to be enjoying the kiss or interested in Avon to me. Nor did Avon appear to be seducing her and expecting her to enjoy it. I agree with Russ; it was an intimidation attempt. If anything, I thought Pella was more inclined to find Vila her type, if she had a male type. She appeared to be genuinely amused by him. They had a cute little rapport going, or so it seemed to me. With Russ quoting Mistral: > >compared to Tarrant's tepid scenes with Zeeona in Warlord. (Although I > >quite > >like Zeeona, and would have liked her as a permanent addition.) > > > Me too. He was a bit love-sick puppyish, wasn't he. Still maybe he > turned into a growling love-beast once they were safely locked away > from all witnesses. Nah, Tarrant as a sex beast is an oxymoron. I love his "tepid" scene with Zeeona. It's so...so...so Tarrant. The poor dear is obviously starved for affection (and who wouldn't be when confined with Avon, Vila, Dayna and Soolin :). It's absolutely adorable that Zeeona practically has to clump him on the head with a club to make him realize that she's "interested." It's another reminder that Tarrant didn't regard himself as a sex-object, which I appreciate. There's nothing more appealing (for me) than a drop dead gorgeous man who isn't aware that he's drop dead gorgeous. Russ also tastefully wrote (in a different post): > Well putting myself in a women's shoes (thigh-length leather boots > with 3 inch heels to be precise) I'd have to find Tarrant the more > attractive of the male characters. I think it's the sense that he's not > constantly judging others and finding them wanting. And the curly > hair Yes! More brilliant Tarrant insight. Thanks, Russ. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:03:25 EST From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Mary Sues Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Mistral wrote: > I am not (Carol) saying that people cannot write and read whatever they want. I thought that was always clear in what you've said--that you were expressing a personal opinion. One of the nice things about fanfic is there appears to be something for everyone, minority and majority tastes alike. > Mary-Sues seem a little exhibitionistic to me; they don't seem to consider > the reader at all. Mary-Sues aren't my choice, either, but there are fans who enjoy them and appear to be able to vicariously appreciate Mary Sues written by other authors. So there is an audience out there beyond the writer. > What I was really trying > to discover (not having bought any zines and about to take the plunge) was > whether I was likely to wind up spending my limited funds on something that > I wouldn't knowingly waste a cent on. Which is entirely understandable, and my dominant practical side much approves. As Sarah has often pointed out, members of both lists are more than willing to help newbie fanfic readers find stories/zines to their tastes. If you would want to share with the list what stories you've liked (and are looking for more of the same), people with the same tastes will recognize the pattern and point you in the right direction. If you've not found it yet, there are links to many (all?) B7 fanfic sites on Judith's web page, and that can direct you to some freebies to get you started. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 07:12:26 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: Russ Massey CC: B7 list Subject: [B7L] Allure Def? & bits (was Re:Allure, Power Games and Tarrant...) Message-ID: <36D6B9D8.ADAA8142@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, Russ. I'm Baaaaaaaaaaaaaa-aaaaaaaaaaaaaaack. This conversation has been like trying to dance on quicksand . Notice, please, how the godmother of the Tarrant Nostra evilly tempted me in by offering to lower Tarrant's scores, and than ran away to safety. I think I am answering question A), but then it turns into question B), which in turn becomes C) when I respond to that one. I am *not* accusing you of doing it deliberately although I have run into people who use that style almost exclusively to discuss, because then, of course, one never has to concede anything. I thought the quesion was relative sex appeal between Avon and Tarrant? Which turned into self-awareness of it? Which turned into use of it? Which turned into effective use of it? Which somehow turned into wanting to get something from use of it? Which suddenly, for some reason, must draw a distinction between seduction and power games? (Both uses of sex appeal, IMO) Help!!!!!!!!!!! To me those are all separate questions. I think I'm answering one, then you say yes, but, you haven't answered the other one. You are too clever by half . What *exactly* is the definition of sex-appeal in Gurps again? (And isn't what we were discussing?) I have a tendency to ramble; I'm sure everybody will be appreciative as I learn to stay more on topic, but to do that, of course, you have to know what the topic is. Call me clueless. Tying off other things: > >Since I know that like Vila, 'you are a clever man', > > You're just guessing. I might be an AI attempting to simulate a B7 fan. What a waste. An AI should have better things to do than devaluing us by compromising our rarity. Still, you have a point; some of your comments could tend to make one wonder . > Probably most bad romance novel clichés have a basis in fact (hey - > you got an accent on the e - I'll have to try that). It doesn't mean that > actively annoying someone is *always* going to get their glands > flowing. No, of course not. It does, however, have roughly the same effect of a couple of plusses to the dice roll, and therefore should be considered accordingly. > And aren't we at the evolutionary stage were our conscious > forebrains can override these atavistic impulses? Actually, no. But that's a whole 'nother argument. Let it suffice to say that the impulses do in fact have to occur first; then you have to be *aware* of them before your forebrain can take charge. Awareness is the weakest link in the chain. A new situation is a new situation; you rarely know what to do. Being in the arms of a man like Avon is a new situation for Pella; he's no Hommik. She decides later, of course, that he's just like them; but I think, really, that having met in such a way that they were not naturally on opposite sides, she might have thought differently. I'm not suggesting that she would have fallen for him; merely that Avon was quicker to take advantage of the situation than she was. Sexual power games were nothing new to him, but they almost certainly were to her (differentiating them, of course, from outright war between the sexes). > I could say more, but I'm not subbed to the Other List. > > Well there's nothing specifically forbidden about discussing sex on this > list. So go ahead - say more. I dare ya! Are you all talk. Are you > someone who starts a subject and gets a topic all hot and flustered and > than abandons it to a cold and lonely archive file. There's a name for > posters like you! (Was that antagonistic enough to get you going :) Sorry, Russ, not by half. You are too much a sensitive 90's kind of guy, whereas I have been bullied and brutalized by the best of the atavistic tradition. I consider Petruchio a romantic old softy, and Avon's practically a puppy. I love the smell of testosterone in the morning. =========== { Exerts more self-control than she knew she had} I *will* refrain from responding to your other comments about Pella and the Alien until the 'quicksand effect' has been eliminated. Other things: > I'm willing to say that you've half convinced me here. Avon responds > best to women who challenge him (but does Anna fit that mould) and > uses the same tactic himself. Responds in kind, actually. Avon is IMHO, basically a gentleman. See the new Avon/Vena thread for that argument. Anna, on the other hand, could swallow Avon whole and spit his bones out to impale passersby. He is an amateur in every way to her, when it comes to manipulation. He was only alive at the end of Rumors because she was thinking, and he was so much on edge that he could do no more than react. I am amused by all the fanfic I've seen that transforms her into some romantic heroine. Anna Grant is a nasty piece of work who, IMO, was using the revolution to set herself up in Servalan's place. And having said that, I should also say that in some ways I admire her. Ha, ha, ha, but I have been brave this week! > Eh? Vena is 'Muller's woman' isn't she? Have I been making coffee > during crucial scenes again? I don't recall anything remotely > scorching Short answer: Anna was *married* to Chesku. Avon wouldn't care. See other thread. > >1) Desperately Seeking Avon: > Freed from the Federation, Avon starts to stretch his wings a bit. Freed from > Blake, he really starts to fly! > > > But most of the time he doesn't. He's never exactly a party animal, > though you could make a case for Gambit being when he really lets his > hair down and enjoy himself. Opening up and becoming oneself does not mean becoming a party animal. Avon is an introvert. But I don't think this is the real answer, just a one that could be fleshed out plausibly. > >2) On a Guilt Trip: No, I don't believe it either. I do think he has guilt feelings, but I don't think they're the motivating force at the beginning. > >3) The Combination Plate (most common): > More or less my own take on Avon. I'd have never expected you to take such a pedestrian view. > >4) What Happens When You Give a Geek a Spaceship > >What did you think was going to happen when geeky little Avon got his > >hands on the most powerful ship in the galaxy? > > > LOL! Brilliant idea for a parody. Why thank you . I always knew those late nights at the labs, posing as a nerd-groupie would pay off some day! Now if I could only do funny. Unhappily, I am too nerdish myself to actually understand humor, let alone write it (intentionally). > >5) Male Mental-Pause: > Avon begins to get in touch with the _Wild_Man_That_Is_Kerr_! > > > I'd go along with this except for one thing. He's not wild enough! He's > always urging caution, complaining about the risks undertaken and > generally being very careful with his own life. Tries to tango with an asteroid? Goes to Malodar with a gun but no *bracelets*? Walks into the slave camp himself, and alone? Goes to Terminal alone? Goes after Shrinker, then Servalan? How many risks do you want him to take? And he gets progressively zanier; usually associated with him cracking up, but could easily be portrayed as a midlife passage by a competent writer. By Orbit, he's positively loopy! Which I like, BTW. I've seen people complain about this, but I think it's a deliberate attempt to remind us how much Avon and Vila really are friends, to contrast it with the rather horrifying climax. :( Actually, I'm rather disappointed by not getting even the tiniest groan for Avon: A Terrible Aspic :( Tarrant flirting: > I seem to remember he gives Cally several appreciative glances in a > few early episodes. I might be projecting :) You are :) Jenna in Breakdown: > And she's very grumpy about being asked to 'prostitute' herself by > Blake ISTR. But she still does it. Hmmmm? Could that be construed as Blake using his own sex appeal effectively on Jenna? Perhaps I should be looking for patterns of Blake manipulating Jenna with her attraction to him? That *is* a Nasty thought. > Phew! I'm glad I'm doing this at work, rather than eating into my > quality time. Sorry - that came over rather rude. I'm enjoying the > discussion - haven't posted so much for ages. Not rude a bit. I've been enjoying it too, even if this much thinking is giving me a headache. I myself have the tendency to be unaware that anything I've said could be badly construed, and so have developed the tendency to apologise rather a lot, which frequently annoys people. In consequence, I now have a habit of vacillating between the unforgivably offensive and the obsequiously self-deprecatory. Without actually ever being aware of either. Pay no attention to the person behind the curtain; it's the curtain we're discussing, eh? Grins, Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:07:54 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: [B7L] Zine help? was Re: Mary Sues Message-ID: <36D6C6D9.64DEB98A@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mac4781@aol.com wrote: > Mistral wrote: > > > What I was really trying > > to discover (not having bought any zines and about to take the plunge) was > > whether I was likely to wind up spending my limited funds on something that > > I wouldn't knowingly waste a cent on. > > Which is entirely understandable, and my dominant practical side much > approves. As Sarah has often pointed out, members of both lists are more than > willing to help newbie fanfic readers find stories/zines to their tastes. If > you would want to share with the list what stories you've liked (and are > looking for more of the same), people with the same tastes will recognize the > pattern and point you in the right direction. > > If you've not found it yet, there are links to many (all?) B7 fanfic sites on > Judith's web page, and that can direct you to some freebies to get you > started. Yes Carol, thanx, I've found them; and of course they are marked adult and slash where appropriate but I am willing to read just about anything gen except to *unknowingly* read a Mary-Sue, which in fact I would also read if it had a good story and I had a chance to erect some internal emotional walls first. Of course, I could keep the walls up all the time; but that would pretty much make reading fanfic pointless at all . What I really wanted to know was how common (proportionately) they are to the rest of things *in zines*. Or whether, perhaps, there were simply some specific zines to avoid. I phrased it badly, I know, and I'm sorry about starting the argument between you and Neil. I haven't said so before now because I didn't want to add fuel. My taste in B7 fanfic is fairly catholic, although I would prefer to begin with things that resemble episodes, and more humorous than dark -- just for starters; I like dark too, but sometimes I have to be careful what I feed my brain; I'd like to have nice things to read on hand first. Also I like short scenes of character and relationship explorations/interactions. I suppose the most important thing to me, really, is good characterizations, but I prefer it to be developed as a result of events. Particularly, I'm fond of humor/parody, or events that fill in between episodes, or expand on things hinted at in episodes. I would like to read some PGP, but am beginning to infer that it is mostly depressing. Not that I want my B7 all treacly, either, but I've always viewed it as cynical and ironic rather than hopeless and despairing, which some of the PGP stuff seems to be, and of course, everybody on the list (she said, making a sweeping overgeneralization) seems to think they all died on or shortly after GP, whereas I've always chosen to view it pretty much as just another cliffhanger, and was relieved to read in Sheelagh Wells' book that my resolution was pretty much like Chris Boucher's. Characters I prefer: Blake-Jenna-Avon-Vila-Soolin, in no particular order; I like the others too, just can't find much commonality with them. My favorite viewpoint is a really well written Vila, he seems to notice things and have insights the others wouldn't naturally have; also Soolin-- they both seem natural observers and commenters on life. I'm thinking of starting with the Bizarro, Cheeseboard, and Renaissance things; if somebody could point me to a couple of more general things that might fit in with what I've outlined, I'd be very appreciative. My thanx for everybody's patience Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:49:35 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Career change? Message-ID: <36D6D09F.178B@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit VJC wrote: > > I have to agree with the 'desire to be wizards' part. I'd decorate my > room with sculls and crows and dribbly candles, but I'm afraid that > my mother would have me committed to an asylum. Mmmm... beginning to wonder if this magic=science connection in the Discworld books isn't one reason Pterry is so popular in this list. BTW, I think it must be a 'P' trait to hit 'reply all' and give the person your addressing 2 copies of all your emails instead of taking a few seconds to fix the address. Or is it just plain apathy? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:20:24 EST From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <19783f17.36d6c9c8@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I wrote: "I took [the test] and am an INFP. The test was a lot of fun. Thanks. > Now...does this mean I have a personality like Cally's? And Avona replied: "I see her as an INFJ. My husband is definitely an INFP.> Does this mean that you think she is well organized? Well, okay, she is probably that. When we first meet her, she is managing to exist on her own in terrible conditions -- probably a sign of good organizational skills. She is also very self-confident. I guess I just WISH I were like her. She always acts with high ideals and is obviously very sincere and straightforward in her actions -- not like Blake who has hidden agendas and is happy to manipulate whoever to get what he "thinks" is right. This is true or Avon would have had the same problem with her that he had with Blake. For myself, I am have a little of the Dr. Jeckle and Mr. Hyde in me. As a mom and general person, I am pretty much an INFP, but as a student, I transform into an INTP with tendencies toward the J. I get very competitive and my thinking is generally more lateral. I actually like the Cally (INF) side of me better and have worked at developing this for many years. Gail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:29:48 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Career change? Message-ID: <36D6CBFC.1438A892@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Helen Krummenacker wrote: > Mmmm... beginning to wonder if this magic=science connection in the > Discworld books isn't one reason Pterry is so popular in this list. Sure must! Remember your Clarke: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:24:15 EST From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [Betty Ragan ] Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <61cc16dc.36d6caaf@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Betty wrote: "I was recently playing around with a different personality test, the Berkeley Personality Profile." Thanks for your insights into Avon. Is there an Internet test for this personality profile? Gail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 17:39:05 -0000 From: "Jonathan" To: , Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon: J or P? Message-ID: <025b01be6280$a1214280$d424883e@ming> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Pherber@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Date: Friday 26 February 1999 04:17 Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon: J or P? >In a message dated 2/25/99 2:23:22 AM Mountain Standard Time, >csm80316@port.ac.uk writes: > ><< How many people on this list actually vote for eack camp? > Let's have a show of hands. > >> >I think he's INTP. > You want to vote, citizen ? Can't be putting enough Pylene-50 in the water... Jonathan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:39:32 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: [B7L] Avon & Vena (was Re:Allure...) Message-ID: <36D6F873.73B16C87@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pherber@aol.com wrote: > I don't think I'd ever looked at it this way before, but after watching it > again I think you're right. Thanx for the support; or perhaps I should say, don't encourage me. > He is rather more gentle with Vena than any other > female, even Meegat. He does seem to want her to like him (or at least not > dislike him) and behaves protectively toward her. It's subtle, but with Avon > any unbending at all is unusual. That's almost really the point; it seems to me that the subtlety indicates genuine warmth and liking versus the somewhat more predatory approach he might use if he were being -- well -- predatory. (I can't really see him leering at Anna when they met, can you? Oh yes, and many people see an Avon/Cally connection -- remember in the early eps, when he just looked quietly at her a lot? It makes what I'm suggesting seem quite reasonable, IMHO.) Apart from which, Vena's involved with somebody else, which requires delicacy, after all. Avon may not be an interpersonal genius, but some things are obvious even to a socially dense introverted nerd-turned-revolutionary privateer. > Not to mention that he's looking sexier than usual, with his hair all tousled > like that... Noticed that, did you? Stop drooling. > Good call, Mistral I congratulate you on your perceptiveness. Dont wear out your tape too fast. Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:03:06 -0000 From: "Julie Horner" To: Subject: Re: [B7L]Allure, Power Games etc. Message-ID: <000201be61c3$4b8559a0$0a4595c1@orac> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: mistral@ptinet.net (replying to J Horner) >> All I recall is a knowing snigger when she said that her relationship >> with Muller is purely recreational. >Heh, heh, heh. I knew I was going to get some flack on this. >I am _not_ imagining things. >said 'snigger' (which I interpret quite differently) notwithstanding. > Go watch it again, and see how he almost never takes his eyes off >of her. Right. This afternoon I took advantage of it being my day off and of the infant taking an unexpected but welcome sleep and I *did* watch it again. First of all my apologoes for misleading the house - I misremembered a bit of dialogue. It was Avon who kindly supplied the word "recreational" when she was groping to find a suitable expression to describe her relationship with Muller. And as to the snigger, well, it was nothing so vulgar as a snigger - more of a lovely wrinkly-eyed smile. That apart - I still could find nothing suggestive of Avon raising his hopes at this stage. His body language just doesn't indicate anything and they are sitting right at opposite ends of the sofa. >Notice how inadequate he appears to feel because he doesn't know >how to comfort her. No I don't think he feels inadequate. He goes to comfort her but when she turns away I don't think it is a personal snub, she is just in shock. I thought he looked slightly irritated but I interpreted that as annoyance with Tarrant and Vila for cocking things up. He wants Soolin to comfort her, but I think that would be a natural response for many men. If they see a woman in distress they assume another woman will be better at dealing with it. >Look at how he takes the risk of going up to Scorpio - pretty >much just in order to make her feel better - he didn't appear to think >Muller had much chance of still being alive. Think about how he >pulled a gun on Muller to protect her Yes I am with you there. He does look genuinely distressed when he has to tell her that Muller has been left behind on Scorpio and I think you are right that he takes her up to Scorpio because he feels sorry for her. Other people have said that basically Avon is a gentleman. When a woman is not threatening him or playing power games he is genuinely chivalrous. I agree with that and I think that that is all that is going on here with Vena. Good old fashioned chivalry - and I promise you, this afternoon I played over the relevant scenes two or three times to make sure no nuances escaped me and it still don't smoulder to me! Julie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:02:51 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Total confusion... (Avon & Vena?) Message-ID: <36D7281B.1C8DEDE4@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Helen Krummenacker wrote: > mistral@ptinet.net wrote: > Vena knows where Xenon base is. Once there, she must stay > > or die. No other safe, rational option. > I can't remember, did she go there on her own or was she brought? Did > they say? If she didn't navigate the way herself, she probably couldn't > give anyone enough info for them to find it. You're right, it just always looks to me like basic piloting skills (with computer assistance) and astronavigation are to these people about like driving a car to us. Perhaps, though, they blindfolded her and wiped the navigation logs. Goody. Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:48:50 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers, Vila & I's Message-ID: <36D724D2.E2B44079@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Avona wrote: > Replying, in fact, to a different post, but trying to clarify for > Tramila what makes Introverts interact with people differently than > extroverts do. > I am a lateral thinker, and a linear expresser. I jump from base to > base, corelating the points of thought until I can turn them into > something logical. But the actual thinking is pretty lateral. Very much so. INTx hate to be misunderstood, therefore are very careful verbally, trying to order thoughts so they will be well recieved by a predominately ES world. My ESFJ ex used to get angry if I wanted to think about something before saying it -- he always seemed to think I was trying to dream up some lie, because he always said the first thing that came into his head -- whereas, if I did that, it wouldn't necessarily have anything to do with my actual opinion. > The conversational depth as noted on lists, I believe also applies o > real life. I's do not make light conversation easily. We prefer to go > in-depth. We tend to take interacting with other people seriously. That > makes us guarded until we trust, then, once we trust, we are very honest > and not at all superficial. > Why are we guarded at first? Knowlege is power, for one thing. The more > people know about us, the more they can try to influence us. I feel Avona is being very kind and careful here. Perhaps for the sake of ESs reading I should add another spin; for influence read: control, manipulate, hurt. (Being careful to say that I am not trying to speak for Avona.) > For another, we are aware this is not our strong suit, and we have to > _work_ to answer questions like, "Enjoying the weather?" and "How's the > family?" I percieve, and I think other INT's do, that these questions > tend to be phony, resent having to answer questions where the answer is > irrelevant, don't want the resentment to show, try to follow etiquette, > fight urge to give meaningful answer, etc. Whereas you probably just > automatically say "Fine" and are glad someone asked. I'll go beyond that. When someone asks me one of those questions, I feel as if I'm being asked to lie, and that irritates me, as an honest NT. I don't *ask* people those things unless I want to know, but the awareness that most people really *don't* want to know forces me to be constantly coming up with ways to answer trivial questions in ways that satisfy my desire to be honest without being offensive or boring to the asker. I try to remember to say What's up? or What's new?, so that people can get straight to anything they want to say. But, (Tramila and other non-INTxs), this list would be dull without you. Stick around. ================== Hey Tramila! I bounced in public! Grins, Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 09:33:23 +1100 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Zine help? was Re: Mary Sues Message-ID: <19990227093323.02432@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 08:07:54AM -0800, mistral@ptinet.net wrote: > What I really wanted to know was how common (proportionately) they are > to the rest of things *in zines*. Or whether, perhaps, there were > simply some specific zines to avoid. I phrased it badly, I know, and > I'm sorry about starting the argument between you and Neil. I haven't > said so before now because I didn't want to add fuel. Mary-Sues haven't been that common in my readings; maybe they are more common in US zines? But not the best ones. > My taste in B7 fanfic is fairly catholic, although I would prefer to > begin with things that resemble episodes, and more humorous than dark > -- just for starters; I like dark too, but sometimes I have to be > careful what I feed my brain; I'd like to have nice things to read on > hand first. Also I like short scenes of character and relationship > explorations/interactions. I suppose the most important thing to me, > really, is good characterizations, but I prefer it to be developed as > a result of events. > Particularly, I'm fond of humor/parody, Bizzaro, definitely. I'm not that fond of humour/parody, preferring wit to strident satire, but I enjoyed these. I didn't get the Bizzaro zine, but I read the occasional one in _Southern Seven_, where they first appeared. > I would like to read some PGP, but am beginning to infer > that it is mostly depressing. Not that I want my B7 all treacly, > either, but I've always viewed it as cynical and ironic rather than > hopeless and despairing, which some of the PGP stuff seems to be, and > of course, everybody on the list (she said, making a sweeping > overgeneralization) seems to think they all died on or shortly after > GP, whereas I've always chosen to view it pretty much as just another > cliffhanger, and was relieved to read in Sheelagh Wells' book that my > resolution was pretty much like Chris Boucher's. The irony of PGP stories is that, even though most people may believe that they all died, most PGPs act on the assumption that they didn't. (See my little bit of research that I did several years ago into about 120 PGP stories, counting up who died and who didn't. It's on my web page http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat/b7/b7.htm) The reason for this, IMHO, is that if they're all dead, you can't really write a *story* about it, so very few of the stories that exist have them all dead. A few do, and they tend to be ghost stories or Blake's 7-the-next-generation stories. The most despairing sort of PGPs tend to be those who have Avon as the only survivor; lets face it, it would be terribly depressing and despairing for him to be in that situation. The more survivors, the more optimistic it tends to be, though then you fall into the formula plot of "let's restore the status-quo"; Our Heros (some of them) escape and steal a ship and go off and have more adventures. Not to say that all of those type of PGP are boring. My favourite PGP is Ana Dorfstad's "The Pattern of Infinity", which was in the _Enarrare' Blake's 7 Special_ (the big black zine). Unfortunately, I think it's out of print, you may have to seek a second-hand copy. The story is huge, in three parts, and excellent. Definitely not a formula story. > Characters I prefer: Blake-Jenna-Avon-Vila-Soolin, in no particular > order; > I'm thinking of starting with the Bizarro, Cheeseboard, and > Renaissance things; if somebody could point me to a couple of more > general things that might fit in with what I've outlined, I'd be very > appreciative. Let's see. _The Machiavelli Factor_ has excellent Blake-Avon stuff. It's also a one-story zine, so you can sink your teeth into it. _The Road to Hell and Other Stories_ is excellent, a "best of" Suzanne Lovett, whom I hadn't known could write as well as she can draw. If you want something optimistic, try _Jabberwocky_, which Judith Proctor has re-issued in about four volumes (it was a very long series!). I read that when I need cheering up. Short stories and vigniettes are mixed up together in general anthology zines (which are more common than one-story zines, considering most fen write short stories rather than long ones). These of course will be mixed, in quality, style and who they concentrate on, but I would reccommend: _Horizon_ _Star One_, (Two, Three...) _Down & Unsafe_ the later _Gambit_s _Southern Seven_ And that's certainly enough to start with! If you have more eclectic tastes and like other fandoms besides Blake's 7, you can try mixed Media zines. I highly reccommend _Enarrare'_ and I have to put in a plug for _Refractions_ considering I'm its editor and therefore I *must* like everything in it... The Refractions web page is: http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat/refract.htm And the Enarrare' web page is: http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat/enarrare/enarrare.htm Kathryn Andersen -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat \_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #84 *************************************