From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #96 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/96 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 96 Today's Topics: [B7L] B7 at NASFIC Re: Re [B7L]: Mary Sues [B7L] Fannishness [B7L] new zines Re: [B7L]Fannishness & Avon's relaltives Re: [B7L] Assassin Re: [B7L] Assassin Re: [B7L]Fannishness [B7L] Son of Ekkkkkkkkkk [B7L] Fannishness and cliches [B7L] More on Pacey's play [B7L] Fannishness Re: [B7L] Assassin Re: [B7L] Assassin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:34:01 -0800 From: Tramila To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] B7 at NASFIC Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990310113401.0081b770@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >U.S. science fiction fantasy conventions don't have Blakes 7 >programming. And that truly *is* discraceful. Any fen on this list up >for planning to host a B7 panel at the upcoming NASFIC convention? It is >the "worldcon lite" for those of us left behind in the States when >WorldCon travels to Australia. NASFIC will be held in Los Angeles >(Orange County) next Labor Day weekend. >Pat P ohhh. Fun Pat! Why don't you contact the planning committee and request the panel? I'm sure you would get a ton of people at this panel. Maybe you could be the panel monitor. What do you think? Huh! Huh! Huh! What do you expect! I'm an extrovert! Tramila --------- Charter Member and Pres. of V.I.C.E. Vila's Intimately Corruptible Element Am I corruptible? Of course I am! and loving it!!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:58:53 -0000 From: "Dangermouse" To: "Neil Faulkner" , "lysator" Subject: Re: Re [B7L]: Mary Sues Message-Id: <199903102005.UAA01334@gnasher.sol.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Default Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- > From: Neil Faulkner > To: lysator > Subject: Re [B7L]: Mary Sues > Date: 10 March 1999 02:02 > > A question I meant to ask on this topic before things got a bit over-heated > (and no, I am not trying to turn the temperature back up) - it seems that > some readers at least are inclined to regard any OCF as a Mary Sue, but does > this hold true when the writer is male? I can see why a female writer might > want to write a Mary Sue, but most male writers wouldn't have that > motivation? Or do they - is there a male MS equivalent? Absolutely. When the Dr Who New Adventures started up in the early 90s, the number of writers (and I never did this, because it was just such a cliche so quickly) who wrote themselves in as Ace's lovers/boyfriends was just unbelievable... A male MS writer for B7 would probably be someone who wants to do a guest boyfriend for Servalan or Dayna, or whoever. Justin in Animals, or Leitz in Traitor, could possibly be considered male Mary Sues. -- "When two hunters go after the same prey they usually end up shooting each other in the back - and we don't want to shoot each other in the back, do we?" http://members.aol.com/vulcancafe ------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:16:53 PST From: "Mikela A." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Fannishness Message-ID: <19990310211654.5541.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain >Unfortunately, "Avon's daughter" has been done so much that it is a >cliche in itself. I think >"Avon's sister" *would* get tarred as a Mary-Sue, >Avon hating his sister would be interesting, but one would have to >write it very cleverly. >Avon having a long-lost sister is such an unbelievable cliche that >people would scream "Mary-Sue! Mary-Sue thinly disguised as a >relative!" Rats! And I once started a story where Avon had a sister. Sort of. It fell apart over other things (Tarrant had to do some things to make the finale work, and his character refused to cooperate), but I always liked her. If anyone's read "Witches of Karres" she was more of a slightly older Goth on overdrive, a trickster-helper, like Coyote or Spider, whose eager helpfulness is not always easy to tell apart from deliberate efforts to wreck someone's life. Would this be a Mary-Sue? >Hmmm, why doesn't someone write a story about Avon's feisty >cantankarous Aunt? (-8 (Played by Dame Edith Evans...) Come to think of it, the adopted sister (she adopted him, long story) made references to a rather large and complex family of her own. I'm sure there had to be aunts. Ellynne P.S. I meant to send something to the list and may have accidentally used someone's e-mail address instead of the list's. Has anyone gotten some comments on Avon: A Terrible Aspect? Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:58:29 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] new zines Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I now have the final postage inclusive prices for the two zines that premiered at Redemption. There are also price changes on _Tales from Space City_ due to the postal rates changing next month. Australians and New Zealanders will be pleased to hear that the postage is going *down* for Zone 2. Prices are in pounds sterling, except where US$ are explicitly stated. The Endless Farce: A Blake's 7 slash (homosexual) zine comprising a sequence of four sex comedies written by Predatrix. Plenty of Cock and a Fair Bit of Bull (written with Another Lady) features Avon and Blake finding that they do have one thing in common. This story is currently available online in the webzine Oracnid. The next three stories detail the addition of Gan to the menage, why orgies are bad for your health, and how one amuses oneself while recovering. Very little angst, a lot of fun, and a great deal of sex. Estimated word count 71,000. UK £6; Europe £6.70; Zone 1 (eg US) £7.70 or US$13 cash; Zone 2 (eg Aus/NZ) £7.90 Vem Quest: A group story from the Space City mailing list. Ramblings about the US$/sterling exchange rate led to speculation on what a vem was actually worth, and over the next few days many of the Citizens reported strange occurrences with their bank accounts, odd bequests... It was obvious that the only thing to do with all those vems was to book the space cruise someone had found in a rather unusual brochure at the travel agents, and so began the Vem Quest. A warning to non list members - it is a Blake's 7 story, but it features list members as original characters and contains a lot of list in-jokes. Buy at your own risk if you aren't a member of either Space City or the main list at Lysator. Contains non-explicit adult material of a varied nature, including far too many of the Citizens' personal fantasies... 37 pages and 33,000 words of non-editorial text, cover art by Val Westall. UK £2.60; Europe £3.10; Zone 1 (eg US) £3.70 or US$7 cash; Zone 2 (eg Aus/NZ) £3.80 The prices for Tales from Space City will be changing as of mid-April - UK and Zone 1 prices go up, Europe unchanged, Zone 2 goes down. The new prices will be: UK £10.20; Europe £11.20; Zone 1 (eg US) £13.30 or US$23 cash; Zone 2 (eg Aus/NZ) £13.70 Please state that you are over the age of 18 and aware of the explicit homosexual nature of much of the contents when ordering Tales from Space City or Endless Farce. I'm away a fair bit over the next month, so email me at zineorder@jajones.demon.co.uk for the address to send an order to, and likely delivery time. Judith Proctor will be agenting Endless Farce - check the website for agented prices, but give Richard a few days to get the prices up:-) She won't be agenting Vem Quest, as it's not a general issue zine and would only cause problems with non list members buying it and then complaining about the MarySue content, but she is willing to handle currency conversion on it for Australians via the usual method (through Pat Fenech). Other overseas list members who are buying a batch of zines and would like Vem Quest can also order it through Judith rather than having to send a separate order to me. -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:17:20 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L]Fannishness & Avon's relaltives Message-ID: In message <3ed5de52.36e68c5f@aol.com>, Pherber@aol.com writes >Yes! Including Diana Trent from Waiting for God - I dare say *she* could keep >Avon in line...she'd probably box his ears if he annoyed her. And she'd have >even less patience with Blake than Old Insufferable, too. Oh yes... A cross-over between Waiting for God and B7 - the thought of Avon trying to cope with Diana and Tom . -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 22:41:16 EST From: AChevron@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/10/1999 10:28:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, umm10@hermes.cam.ac.uk writes: << Later in the week I'm going to watch 'Stardrive'. I'm thinking of watching back 'Power' as well, but don't know if I can bear it. >> Bravely done. The sacrifices we make in the search for TRUTH and Knowledge...... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:46:20 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin Message-ID: <36E73C8B.E0F5F556@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Una McCormack wrote: > So, you win on this one. 'Assassin' is OK. I even watched 'Games', and > decided that that probably wasn't the worst episode either, even if it was > a little bit dull. Tee, hee. How could you not like Assassin? Okay, Piri is awwwwwfulllll. But Vila gloating over being the one to discover the plan? Tarrant and Orac accusing Avon of being afraid? Avon and Vila down on Domo? Poor Avon giving in to his conscience for a change and saving Nebrox? Avon saying to Tarrant "I'll back you up", and then sitting there with his feet up while Cancer gives Tarrant a bashing? And then our two 'macho men' pawing the ground while only Soolin keeps her head long enough to save the day? I always find Assassin good for a whole lotta laughs. > Later in the week I'm going to watch 'Stardrive'. Okay, let's hope I'm not asking a dangerous question here... Will some people tell me why they hate Stardrive so much? I admit that the Space Rats are =truly= ridiculous-- but I think all the scenes in Scorpio, especially the sequence at the beginning, with Avon making one hell of a mistake and Vila surreptitiously saving the day, are great. And the ending gives us one of those nasty moral issues that people love to argue about. So what's not to like? All throw things....... now! Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 21:42:04 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L]Fannishness Message-ID: <36E757AB.D9EFFDD2@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathryn Andersen wrote: > On Tue, Mar 09, 1999 at 09:25:53PM -0800, mistral@ptinet.net wrote: > > > The Liberator > > chose *someone* they loved, not necessarily *everybody* they loved. If it > > showed Blake the siblings that he knew was dead, wouldn't that assumption > > mean that it would have had to show Avon Anna? > > You're demolishing your own argument here. It did show Blake his > siblings, and it didn't show Avon Anna. Well, then, I've been unclear. What I was trying to say was that Liberator was not necessarily showing an exhaustive list of everyone the victims loved. Perhaps only the one thought about most recently, most near the surface, with the most fear attached, whatever. My argument was A) It wasn't an exhaustive list because Avon didn't see Anna. B)She was not excluded because of her death, since Blake saw the siblings that he knew were dead. C) No conclusions can be drawn, therefore, about D) Whether or not Jenna's mother and Avon's brother were dead or alive, and E) Whether or not any of the three had *other* loved ones. Therefore, Avon having a sister is not excluded by the events in 'Spacefall'. Just IMHO, Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 23:21:05 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: [B7L] Son of Ekkkkkkkkkk Message-ID: <36E76EE1.97F658DA@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ================== Ekkkkkkkkkkkk! GUESS WHAT! My first batch of zines came today! Hooray! Hooray! Many thanx to everyone who made suggestions! ================ Okay, Tramila, did I do that right? Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:55:53 +1100 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: [B7L] Fannishness and cliches Message-ID: <19990311205553.A708@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Okay, folks, I didn't mean to squash any budding newbie writers out there with my talk of cliche's! Sorry! Thing is, many ideas *have* been done more than once. This makes us old farts who've read lots of zines, wince, when we come across the idea yet again *when it is not sufficiently plausible*. There is one thing to remember, and repeat to yourself again again when writing fiction: There is no such thing as an original idea; only an original treatment. This means that you should never let the fact that something's been done before *stop* you from writing a story -- but also be aware that if something *has* been done before, that you should see if you can approach it from another direction than the usual one. For example, with my "Butterfly Effect" series, I am running (repeatedly) into the problem that, even though it is an Alternative Universe, it is such a subtle AU that the events are only slightly different from the episodes. Story #2 was the first one that made a major change: I saved Cally on Terminal. But to do so, I had to re-tell the episode to demonstrate how she got saved as a result of what happened in story #1. But of course, everyone knows what happened in _Terminal_, so I racked my brains and tore up several versions to try to come up with a completely different approach. First I had Avon as the viewpoint character, having flashbacks. Then I tried Vila. Then I tried Cally. And while I was trying Cally, I got the idea for what the story really ended up being about -- because I suddenly got the idea of having the viewpoint character being someone very unusual indeed! Story #3 (which is very very short) is a retelling of _Rescue_ (because, after all, even if Cally is still alive, Dorian would still be out there, trying to grab the Liberator crew for his basement). Thing is, not very much was different, so I tried a different approach: I told it as a fairy tale. (Unfortunately story #4 seems to be turning into something a bit more conventional. Oh well.) So, my point is, you can do *anything* which has been done before, if you try to apply some lateral thinking. If you can write it well, think about the characters and make it believable, you can pull off almost anything. (I was thinking, as I wrote that sentence, of one of my favourite series of fanfic, the 11th Doctor stories by Rebecca Bohner (nee Anderson), which manage, incredible as it may seem, to have an original female character fall in love with the Doctor, and the Doctor fall in love with her, and make it *believeable*. And part of that, I think, was because the stories had a fascinatingly unusual approach, as well as the words being lovingly polished.) So what if Avon shot the clone? Tell it from the clone's point of view! Avon has a daughter? Tell it from the mother's point of view! Or from Soolin's point of view! Or *something* different. And see if you can make it plausible. As I said with the long-lost-daughter scenario, there's gotta be reasons why. But the other thing to keep in mind is, that sometimes you can't tell the reader everything, because the opportunity doesn't arise. There's a balance between lack of plausible explanation and being hit over the head with detailed exposition. For example: Avon shot the clone. Why was the clone there? How had he travelled from that unnamed planet to Gauda Prime, and why would he have left? Was the clone knowingly pretending to be Blake, or unknowingly thinking that he *was* the real Blake, and why? If programmed, then why? And who? Or maybe he'd gone psycho. But why? And maybe some of these questions are unanswerable or beyond the scope of your story, but it doesn't hurt to ask. Now, go off and write. (-8 K.Avonsen. -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat \_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 07:23:20 EST From: Mac4781@aol.com To: space-city@world.std.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] More on Pacey's play Message-ID: <391c1a77.36e7b5b8@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Here are more details on the West End dates for "The Birthday Party" (kindly passed along by Diane): <> The Piccadilly is located on Denman Street; tube is Piccadilly Circus. Tickets for preview week are normally somewhat cheaper than tickets during the official run. A friend of mine went to see the show in Richmond the other night (and sweetly picked up a program and a poster for me :). She reports that Steven had a new haircut and was looking good. All the usual groveling applies: If anyone spots any reviews, goes to see it and would like to share a review, goes to see it and gets any pics of Steven, I'd be most interested and appreciative of any/all. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 07:44:18 EST From: Bizarro7@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Fannishness Message-ID: <8c8859ea.36e7baa2@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/11/99 2:10:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, mistral@ptinet.net writes: << > The Liberator > > chose *someone* they loved, not necessarily *everybody* they loved. If it > > showed Blake the siblings that he knew was dead, wouldn't that assumption > > mean that it would have had to show Avon Anna? >> I was always under the strong impression that the Liberator's defense system (or Zen) showed the most irresistably influential or persuasive person to the intended intruder, not the 'most beloved'. This would mean that Avon's brother had a lot of control or power over him (at least in the past...but who knows, maybe 'Terrick' is still out there) and Blake's relatives had their influence on him through love. Leah ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:40:38 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin Message-ID: <001001be6bde$021820c0$1817ac3e@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mistral wrote: >Tee, hee. How could you not like Assassin? Okay, Piri is awwwwwfulllll. But >Vila gloating over being the one to discover the plan? Tarrant and Orac >accusing Avon of being afraid? Avon and Vila down on Domo? Poor Avon giving in >to his conscience for a change and saving Nebrox? Avon saying to Tarrant "I'll >back you up", and then sitting there with his feet up while Cancer gives >Tarrant a bashing? And then our two 'macho men' pawing the ground while only >Soolin keeps her head long enough to save the day? I always find Assassin good >for a whole lotta laughs. Guess it just goes to show how different people see the same episode in different ways. For me, Assassin is the pits. Not only is it severely compromised by its obvious lack of budget (most 1st-3rd season eps managed to come through _despite_ the low budget), but it refuses to take itself seriously at any level. The whole slave trader thing is camped up into an embarrassing farce (there is such a thing as real slavery - it deserves better treatment than this). The race-against-time at the end is unbelievably devoid of anything remotely resembling tension. And whilst Caroline Holdaway might not be much of an actress, Cancer is even less of an assassin - how many real assassins redo their hair in order to gloat before taking their time over a kill? Having captured Avon, she should have just shot him. Better still, she should have shot him without going to the trouble of capturing him first. Obviously someone who's never read the Evil Overlord list. When scripts, production, design, editing and acting are this dismal, _nothing_ can redeem the episode. There are some good lines in Assassin ('Son of Domo the 8th, presumably') and the main characters occasionally behave in interesting ways, but fleeting moments like that are just spitting in the wind. I don't care if I never see this one again. >Okay, let's hope I'm not asking a dangerous question here... Will some people >tell me why they hate Stardrive so much? I admit that the Space Rats are >=truly= ridiculous-- but I think all the scenes in Scorpio, especially the >sequence at the beginning, with Avon making one hell of a mistake and Vila >surreptitiously saving the day, are great. And the ending gives us one of >those nasty moral issues that people love to argue about. So what's not to >like? >All throw things....... now! Alas, I've only got two arms:) Stardrive suffers in much the same way as Assassin - too much wrong with it and not enough that's right. The Space Rats are certainly _the_ fly_ in the ointment, and betray the writer's ill-informed prejudices. I was a punk myself in those days, and I felt personally insulted when I saw this episode. Besides, Stardrive was written by James Follett, who also wrote Dawn of the Gods, which I consider _the_ worst B7 episode ever, so bad I eventually decided to refuse to recognise it as canon. It might not be 'playing the game' to cite external factors when slating an episode, but when there is insufficient incitement to suspend your disbelief, you're just left feeling that you're watching a cheapskate production cobbled together by people who know next to bugger all about science fiction. Or assassination. Or youth culture. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:55:45 PST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin Message-ID: <19990311215546.29657.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain >Tee, hee. How could you not like Assassin? Okay, Piri is >awwwwwfulllll. But Vila gloating over being the one to discover the >plan? Tarrant and Orac accusing Avon of being afraid? Viewed as a romp, and not by Neil's more exacting standards (if I become absorbed by something, critical faculties tend to shut down until later), it is a good episode. Except, of course, for Piri. She's dreadful, both as clinging, shrinking violet and as assertive woman. She'd like to have Servalan's flair, obviously, but the actress concerned seems to have been unable to the character the same sort of style that Servalan has in abundance. Also, I love Avon's reaction to Orac saying he had every right to be apprehensive. That's our boy! >Avon and Vila down on Domo? Although Avon putting on that act for Benos and his cronies does irritate me for some reason. Probably because the audience knows very well he isn't the soft Mummy's boy he's trying to appear for the sake of the plan. >Poor Avon giving in to his conscience for a change and saving >Nebrox? Avon saying to Tarrant "I'll back you up", and then sitting >there with his feet up while Cancer gives Tarrant a bashing? Yes, I love that bit too. He looks so comfortable waiting for Tarrant to put "Cancer" in the right position to be threatened properly. Which Tarrant, very obligingly, does. Good man, Tarrant. Very useful >And then our two 'macho men' pawing the ground while only >Soolin keeps her head long enough to save the day? What Soolin says after she slaps Piri is classic (like her comment that Orac/Muller's android wouldn't know where to start in the business of fulfilling her every desire). Tarrant, unfortunately, is still suffering from the effects of testosterone - from what we've seen of Piri at that stage, the only possible thing Soolin could be jealous of is Piri's ability to arouse Tarrant's protective instincts, and one doubts a woman that capable of looking after herself would want that for herself. As for saving the day, well, hands up everyone who quite understands that Soolin had to sit on the floor, so that she could be potentially menaced by the clockwork crab, but is irritated by it anyway. >All throw things....... now! >Mistral Ouch! Regards Joanne Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #96 *************************************