Bram says: Ok, if we are all silent now... the floor is Wolvie's
Wolverine says: Okay, first of all, let me remind everyone that I am
                supposed to be a professional
Wolverine says: 3D animation artist.
Wolverine says: I work at Ball Systems making military simulators
Wolverine says: despite my artistic background, I still know a great
                deal about 3D
Wolverine says: and I will be of some use when we convert/ if we
                convert to 3D
Wolverine says: so, when you all start coding, I have some info for
                you that will save time and help the speed of things
Wolverine says: but, I am not here to talk about technical stuff, so I
                will leave that issue till later.
Wolverine says: I am here to talk about the look and feel of the game
Wolverine says: right now, we are all in a room, with stairs going
                down, right?
Bram nods solemnly.
Wolverine says: well, there is a weird thing I have noticed:
Wolverine says: when I move north, I remain the same size, like I was
                flying up or something
Wolverine says: I know that these polygons can be scaled, so why not
                scale our objects?
Bram nods solemnly.
Wolverine says: we could at least emulate perspective.
Jacques AcKs!
Bram says: You move north, but the camera moves north as well!
Wolverine says: alse, we seem to have a size inconsistency
Wolverine says: but the background doesn't seem to!
Jacques says: are you going to talk about real 3d or fake 3d??
Wolverine says: the  idea here is to make things appear more realistic
Wolverine says: I am going to talk about some artistic standards,
                regardless of whether it is 3D or not
Jacques nods solemnly.
Wolverine says: we need to be able to say that all characters should
                be X feet tall, or X units or whatever
Wolverine says: and the shorter need to be shorter, etc
Wing says: it's not possible to scale things today, or rather it must
           be done by the mud...
Wolverine says: I realize that this game is limited, but we are not
                limited in our drawings
Bram says: May I interrupt?
Wolverine nods solemnly.
Bram says: About scaling....
Wolverine says: go ahead
Bram says: If you arenot talking TRUE 3d, and are satisfied...
Bram says: ...with scaling objects.... the implementation is
           trivial...
Bram says: as it is now....
Wolverine says: I don't have a concern with it.  I am bapable of
                either art form
Bram says: We have two dimensions.
Wolverine says: capable
Bram says: But NOT screen coord dimensions...
Wolverine says: okay, I see that.
Bram says: We have: depth and x-pos.
Bram says: Now , my intention was:
Bram says: With increasing depth.... objects should be downscaled.
Bram says: It's even in the code of the current client.
Wolverine says: sounds like what I was describing
Bram says: however:
Bram says: It was bugged, and I commented it out.
Wolverine says: then fix it
Pilf snickers.
Bram says: But the scaling you mentioned does not even require a
           protocol change
Wolverine says: I knew that.  If I can scale the size of the graphic
                window, then
Wolverine says: it makes sense that the objects are also being scaled
Wolverine says: this is all very clear.
Wolverine says: next point/
Wolverine says: look and feel:
Wolverine says: we have a post office, right?
Bram nods solemnly.
Wolverine says: when was the last time anyone got mail?
Jacques snickers.
Bram says: mail or fax?
Pilf says:  It's cumbersome.
Wolverine says: Everyone read my post about the apartment idea, right?
Jacques nods solemnly.
Bram nods solemnly.
Wing nods solemnly.
Wolverine says: good.
Bram says: it is great!
Pilf's head shakes no.
Jacques says: interesting conceopt :-)
Pilf says:  On the Bboard ?
Wolverine says: well, I will mail it to whoever hasn't read it.
Bram says: it's ftp-able
Pilf says:  Oh, ok. pub on lysator ?
Bram says: .pub/lpmud/bsx/list
Wolverine says: anyway, I think that if we can give the players in the
                game a sense of belonging, we should be able to keep
                them here.
Pilf nods solemnly.
Pilf says:  Ok.
Wolverine says: shhh!
Wolverine says: the thing is that most MUDs don't give you a place to
                hang your hat
Wolverine says: from the beginning.
Wolverine says: but we do.
Wolverine says: I know about mushes and all, so don't bring it up.
Wolverine says: but, beyond that
Wolverine says: we can eliminate the need to describe a certain area
                (other than the description of an exit) because we can
                DRAW it.
Wolverine says: so, generally, our game has some strengths as I have
                mentioned.
Wolverine says: but it lacks a certain linkage to it all.
Wolverine says: refer to my comment on the idea of "to your left is a
                volcano"
Wolverine says: in my letter
Wolverine says: the last thing I have to say is that I really need
                help with BSX DRAW
Wolverine says: because I will be able to pump out major artwork in
                minor time.
Wolverine says: I have about 35 Inspirational sketches that are over a
                year old for this game
Bram says: but?
Wolverine says: I offer to do any and all requests for artwork.
Wolverine says: But I can't get the BSX draw to work.
Wolverine says: who wrote the draw program?
Pilf says:  Um didnt Voyager or TheCaptain develop it ?
Jacques says: not me.
Bram says: VOyager
Pilf nods solemnly.
Bram says: now you mention it
Jacques says: it's ten times better than it used to be!
Wolverine says: well, would anyone tell me his address?
Bram blushes.
Jacques grins evilly.
Bram says: just finger him
Pilf says:  Boob and I helped him fix a few things ... but personally I
           think it's kinda nice.
Bram says: szloh@jupiter.cse.utoledo.edu
Wolverine says: other than a few bug fixes that I wanted to mention,
                that is all I have to say.
Bram says: I will bring it up at our meeting
Bram says: thankU for your input
Wolverine says: the bugs are: Bart simpson is annoyingly defective.
Wolverine says: he occasionally won't load.
Bram frowns.
Bram says: Probably disk space problems
Jacques says: BIAB 
Wolverine says: the Pluto quest has a problem with the corner room
Jacques drops transmogrifier.
Jacques left the realms of bsx, and now has to deal with the harsh cold world outside.
Bram says: what does BIAB stand for?
Wolverine says: the other bug is that the amiga client needs work.
Pilf shrugs helplessly.
Bram jokes: the other bug IS the amigaclient
Wolverine says: tell ferry when he gets here that I need to talk to
                him.
Bram grins evilly.
Pilf snickers.
Bram nods solemnly.
Wolverine says: cute, bram.
Bram says: I will
Pilf says:  It's true.
Pilf smiles at Bram.
Wolverine says: great.  I'm don.
Wolverine says: done.
Pilf says:  May I say something ?
Pilf chuckles politely.
Wolverine says: sure.
Pilf says:  Guess I just did...
Wing agreed with Pilf.
Bram says: You get the floor
Pilf says:  I don't think removing the room descrips is an option.
Pilf's head shakes no.
Pilf says:  You severly limit who can login and quest.
Wing agrees with Pilf.
Pilf says:  Not *EVERYBODY* is always running graphics I/F.
Pilf says:  Maybe adding a BRIEF mode to the mud.
Pilf says:  Not removing it entirely.
Bram says: That's exactly what the alpha client does:
Bram says: filters out all @ commands at CLIENT side
Pilf says:  Now, I know the standard arg of "But this is a graphical
           mud"!
Bram says: no need to do it at SERVER side
Pilf nods solemnly.
Pilf says:  Whatever.
Pilf says:  BUT, having that attitude so far really hasn't helped this
           place to take off.
Pilf says:  Anyway ...
Pilf says:  I think is we had some SUPER quest that people could really
           get involved
Pilf says:  with via telnet and serial lines, it would get them hooked.
Pilf says:  THEN if they want to enjoy the mud in it's intended forum,
           let
Pilf says:  them fight over workstation.
Bram says: text-only-quest?
Pilf's head shakes no.
Pilf's head shakes no.
Pilf says:  No no ... but certainly not a quest that is GRAPHIS only.
Bram says: there is only 1 graphics only quest I think...
Bram says: that's Charon
Bram says: I mean: venus
Pilf says: To tell you the truth it was your quest that hooked me
           Bram.
Bram says: which one?
Bram says: dont tell me the LUD
Pilf says:  And that was using ONLY telnet to an xterm.
Pilf smiles happily.
Pilf nods solemnly.
Pilf says:  Yup, LUD.
Pilf giggles inanely.
Bram says: Ah... that one
Pilf ruffles Brams hair playfully.
Bram says: It was kinda innovative aye?
Pilf says:  An idea b4 it's time.
Pilf grins evilly.
Pilf says:  It wasn't until Boob and I stareted getting on and raising
Freak slowly shimmers into sight.
Pilf says:  hell with each others images that we started grapically
           interfacing
Pilf says:  with BSX.
Pilf smiles happily.
Freak bows gracefully.
Freak bows to Bram.
Bram smiles happily.
Pilf says:  That's all I wanted to point out ... that we shouldn't
           trash
Pilf says:  the standard character cell interface.
Jacques suddenly appears right before your eyes.
Pilf drop the floor on Bram's big toe.
Freak says: Hello Jacques
Pilf says:  Ooopps. Sorry.
Pilf smiles at Bram.
Bram looks at his swollen toe
Wing says: I must add that it's not always you know what something
           someone has drawn is, or is named in english
Pilf snickers.
Pilf nods solemnly.
Wing says: therefore descriptions are necessary
Pilf says:  Fogot to mention that.
Freak says: oh 
Pilf nods solemnly.
Freak says: maybe muddraw should include a description query
Pilf says:  BUT, there are somethings that are conveyed in a graphics
           only ENV.
Pilf says:  Like the hidden door by the waterfall downstairs.
Pilf smiles happily.
Freak says: and the light on venus
Pilf nods solemnly.
Bram says: I aggree....
Pilf says:  Yup, I forgot that one.
Bram says: It's kinda cool to have quests that can only be done in
           grpahics muds
Freak says: very cool
Pilf says:  So, those are the `Graphics only quests', that can real in
           the people
Pilf says:  using character cell devices.
Pilf snickers.
Bram says: it kinda says: look at this.... your ordinary text mud wont
           be able to cope with this kinda stuff!
Pilf says:  Aggreed.
Bram says: it's suppoosed to be a step beyond
Pilf nods solemnly.
Freak says: oooh 
Bram says: ...the standard way.
Freak says: when do I get to see it?
Bram says: see what?
Freak says: are there step by step plans for the implementaion of this
            graphic stufff, pilf?
Pilf says:  What graphics stuff ?
Freak says: sorry I came in late
Pilf snickers.
Pilf says:  That's ok.
Pilf ruffles Freaks hair playfully.
Bram says: Never mind, but what DID ya mean, Freak?
Freak says: I must be confused, I thought you were talking about
            something revolutionary
Bram says: like?
Pilf says:  BSX!
Pilf throws his head back and cackles with glee!
Bram says: tacktile feed back?
Bram says: head mounted displays?
Pilf chuckles politely.
Wolverine says: Gee, sounds like work at Ball Systems.
Freak says: like something that would reallly draw in the users
Freak says: ouch! 
Wolverine says: guys, ball systems is cutting edge with this kind of
                stuff.
Freak says: no pun intended
Bram says: Nah... dont need that stuff....
Wolverine says: I have played with these toys at work.
Bram says: You want to simulate sex with tacktile sensors or
           something?
Freak says: yeah 
Bram says: like having 3 datagloves?
Pilf says:  Wolverine was the one with the graphics ideas Freak.
Freak grins evilly.
Wolverine says: nah, just a battle thin
Wolverine says: thing.
Sam shouts: Someone can help me on Caci ????
Bram says: I have never been on caci
Freak says: its neato Bram
Wolverine says: where is caci?
Bram says: What is it? Whose is it?
Freak says: its Thecaptains
Bram says: Does it have service from the cabs?
Wolverine says: great, he's not here.
Pilf says:  ~thecaptain/quest/cacicity
Freak says: you really oughta check it out
Freak says: you start on neptune
Bram says: Ah
Bram says: BRB, RL.
Freak says: hmm 
Wolverine says: just for the log, I sure would like it if someone made
                a non-programmer's guide to writing code for BSX.
Wing smiles happily.
Freak says: why? 
Wolverine says: then you could all enjoy my creativity.
Pilf chuckles politely.
Freak says: you are not a programmer?
Wolverine says: I also am very new to programming in C
Wing says: well you need to become a programmer to program bsx-mud...
Pilf says:  Full of ourselves this A.M. are we Wolvie ?
Pilf chuckles politely.
Wolverine says: yep, but it would be nice to get some clues.
Freak giggles inanely.
Wing says: that's the simple hard cold truth...
Freak says: I never heard of lpc unitl BSX came along
Wolverine says: Well, I forgot to wake up my maturity.
Pilf hands Wolverine a bottle of Geritol.
Pilf says:  There, chug that.
Pilf giggles inanely.
Wolverine says: I have had y cheerios already.
say anyway, are you finished Pilf?
Wing says: anyway, are you finished Pilf?
Arduin suddenly appears right before your eyes.
Pilf says:  I said I was.
Pilf smiles at you.
Arduin bows gracefully.
Bram says: This is Arduin
Bram says: He wants in :-)
Freak says: for the record I would like to see a reversible graphic
            protocol for characters when they micro_e & micro_w
Bram says: In our macabre cultlike group that is
Freak says: hi Arduin!
Freak says: welcome! 
Arduin says: hi
Arduin smiles happily.
Wolverine says: greetings.
Wing says: greetings
Pilf bows to Arduin.
Wolverine 's razor goes buzzzzzzzzz
Arduin giggles inanely.
Freak says: like when a character changes direction, their graphic
            should too
Bram nods solemnly.
Wolverine says: I like that idea.
Bram says: Thath would require drawing all chars 4 times
Wing thinks he accidently promised to code that...
Freak says: we could just reverse the graphic
Bram says: And would clutter up comm. lines 4 times as much
Wolverine promises to do the graphics for it
Freak says: it would?
Bram pokes Wolverine in the ribs.
Jacques says: so I take it people think BSX should stick with 2D ?
Freak says: clutter 4 times?
Bram says: You dont even have bsxdraw
Bram grins evilly.
Wolverine says: well, I had better real soon if you want the graphics
                done!
Jacques says: because many of the things people are talking about are
              2d specific...
Freak says: no i mean like just flip the already existing graphic
Freak says: yeah you are right Jacques
Wolverine says: well, I gotta go to school now.  bye.
Jacques says: one of the cool things about true 3d...
Freak says: have you ever played the version of tank for xwindows?
Wing says: have we really discussed that issue...I would go for 2d with
          3d effects...
Freak says: bye wolverine
Wolverine waves.
Bram waves.
Jacques says: is that you get all these tings for free...
Wolverine left the realms of bsx, and now has to deal with the harsh cold world outside.
Wing says: drawing in true 3d is not a task I would like...
Bram says: I know
Bram says: it's all world coords
Bram says: makes it so much easier for the server
Jacques says: you get real perspective   3 point :-)
Bram says: put puts strain on the client
Wing can on the other hand not draw...
Jacques says: exactly :-)
Freak says: maybe the client is where the strain should be
Jacques nods solemnly.
Bram says: maybe not
Freak says: ? 
Jacques says: that is what I think.
Jacques says: strain should be on client.
Bram says: My 8088/8MHz has difficulties doing simple polygons...
           without the 2d projection
Bram says: And even worse:
Bram says: what about amigas?
Bram grins evilly.
Jacques says: my system has clients rendering at their ability.
Pilf doubles over and pukes.
Jacques says: well...that is a problem...
Jacques says: we have to decide what level of machines to support.
Freak says: a 8088/8mhz was meant for word processing
Jacques says: have you heard of REND386 ?
Bram nods solemnly.
Bram says: fast poly drawer
Jacques says: it is a 3d graphics library for 386 machines.
Bram says: You probably mean: for 386+387 machines
Jacques says: I intend to use it when *somebody* writes a client for
              my mud for PCs
Jacques says: well, it may use integer arith...I dont remember
Jacques says: I already wrote clients for Xwindows and GL
Freak says: jacques do you run a graphic mud?
acques smiles happily.
Jacques says: it is not open yet...but very close now :-)
Freak says: what is the address?
Jacques says: 3d, all the way.
Freak says: when will it be open?
Jacques says: don't know for sure...depends how much times I get to
              spend on it....
Freak says: this is serious compitition Bram
Bram smiles happily.
Jacques says: also, I ahve been saying that for so long..ppl wont
              believe me anymore :-)
Freak wipes the sweat from his brow
Freak says: whew 
Jacques says: I want to help BSX with what I have leanred so far.
Freak says: man you gotta finish it
Freak says: ok great!
Jacques says: you should see my GL client....
Jacques says: shading, light sources...solid objects.. ;-)
Freak says: you owe much to BSX for your initiative to begin a graphic
            mud
Arduin says: what is GL?
Jacques says: the X-windows one is just wireframe right now.
Wing says: but how hard is it to draw?
Jacques says: GL is a graphics language started by SGI, now supported
              by many companies.
Arduin nods solemnly.
Jacques says: right now, it is very difficult to create geometries.
Jacques says: because I haven't made the equivalent of bsxdraw yet.
Bram says: no need: there is an ftp site with tons of 3d objects
Freak says: hm 
Wing says: they got a 3d picture of me?
Bram says: I use it for my raytracer
Jacques says: well, these objects need to be relatively simple right
              now...
Jacques says: my protocol is very efficient...but really complex
              objects will kill any client...
Jacques says: I try to stay around 10 frames per second for an average
              scene...
Jacques says: which means there can only be a few hundred polys on the
              screen.
Freak says: gee! 
Peugh slowly shimmers into sight.
Freak says: hi peugh!
Peugh says: Howdie. 
Jacques says: I am limited by rendering speed  :-)
Bram shouts: 17:00 GMT!
Bram shouts: make that 16:00
Wing says: read /log/meeting for an update
Freak says: its time!
Bram says: Ok....
Bram says: How about some sort of agenda?
Bram says: To go through each issue one by a time?
emote wants to speak about the protocol.
Wing wants to speak about the protocol.
Bram says: Let's divide the subjects:
Bram says: All issues are either regenesis or BSX related
Bram says: I would like to address them both
Bram says: The BSX subjects can be subdivided into protocol changes /
           3d extentions / others
Bram says: I propose we tackle the Regenesis issues first.
Bram says: would that be ok?
Arduin nods solemnly.
Freak nods solemnly.
Peugh nods solemnly.
Wing nods solemnly.
Bram says: In the mailing list I have seen some very interesting
           ideas.
Bram says: One of the most interesting suggestions was the better
           guidance of newbies.
Boob slowly shimmers into sight.
Bram says: It was about a better logon system.
Arduin says: I think that is a good thing...
Bram says: One that asks all kinda questions, so every user, even with
           IQ s below 50 could use it
Boob kicks Pilf.
Freak uses his magical goodness to bring peace to this place.
Bram says: However...
Peugh uses his magical evilness to set everyone aflame
Freak says: what kinds of questions?
Bram says: The implementation gives me some problems with LPs
Bram says: lemme check my files...
Bram says: it's about a mailing from wolverine.
Bram says: lemme show you a sample log on session
Bram says: Example:
Bram says:         Welcome to Regenesis!
Bram says:                 by Bram Stolk, etc.
Bram says: please enter your character's name at the prompt.  If you do not
Bram says: have 
Bram says: a character, enter in a name for a new character and answer the
Bram says: questions that follow.
Bram says: Name: <Wolverine>
Bram says: Wolverine is the name of a new player.
Bram says: Welcome, Wolverine!
Bram says: Please tell us what machine you are using:
Bram says: : <NeXT>
Bram says: The NeXT is not a computer we support on the Regenesis site.
Bram says: Do you have access to any other workstations?
Bram says: : <yes>
Bram says: Here is the list of available operating systems that we support:
Bram says: 1. Xwindows11
Bram says: 2. Sparc
Bram says: ....and so on....
Bram says: Enter in which machine you have access to, or type 'n' for none.
Bram says: : <n>
Bram says: Well, Wolverine, you still have a few options.  Do you have a
Bram says: personal Computer?
Bram says: : <yes>
Bram says: Please enter which machine you have:
Bram says: 1. Amiga WB 1.3
Bram says: 2. Amiga WB 2.0
Bram says: 3. Amiga AGA (A1200, A4000)
Bram says: 4. IBM with CGA graphics
Bram says: 5. IBM with Windows
Bram says: 6. Macintosh
Bram says: 7. other
Bram says: : <1>
Bram says: The Amiga is a fine machine, Wolverine.  Fortunately, we support it
Bram says: as a front end for the Regenesis game. [goto *]
Bram says: :<4>
Bram says: The IBM is a widely used computer, so naturally, we support it as a
Bram says: front end for the Regenesis game. [goto *]
Bram says: and so on...
Bram says: so basically:
Bram says: what it does: it leads the player by the hand...
Bram says: even tells him/her to use ftp if it has to.
Freak says: ooh I like it! Mommy!
Bram says: the idea behind this:
Bram says: Regenesis could be immensly more accessable
Bram says: I would like such an improvement of accessability
Peugh says: But, w
Bram says: Chances are, there are a lot of potential users who simply
           give up because of difficulties.
Arduin says: like my friends...
Bram says: Wing has allready achieved a large improvement of
           accessability
Wing smiles happily.
Bram says: If it werent for me, BSX would now hav e been accessable
           for people without client
Bram blushes.
Bram says: So I would like further improvements, as outlined by
           wolverine.
Bram says: Now my problem is:
Bram says: LPMUD sucks when it comes to asking questions from a user.
Bram says: the cause of this is:
Bram says: You cant sequentially ask a couple of questions.
Bram says: You gotta nest them... each in their own sub procedure.
Bram says: So about the implementation of this system... I would nt
           know how...
Peugh says: Hmmm. 
Wing says: I could make a data-driven thingy to make such programming
           easy
Arduin says: i think they have managed to do something like that in
             Batmud... an item...
Bram says: is batmud LP?
Arduin says: yes
Peugh says: How about we create a room, where there is someone like
            Bart to administer the questions.
Wing says: err easier
Bram says: No...
Bram says: that would nt do...
Arduin says: there is a figurine playres can configure... make a
             moster... aggr, bar way etc.
Bram says: if we want REALLY novice users to be able to use it ...
Bram says: we need a simple DIRECT Q/A system.
Bram says: Basicaly, using BSX is 1 big puzzle....
Bram says: But everyone can solve it, if the puzzle is solved piece by
           piiece...
Bram says: with a Q/A system you can achieve this.
Bram says: This way, you will NOT have to bother X11 players with
           things like fossil drivers for PCs
Wing agrees with Bram.
Bram says: You only bring up an issue, when it is appropriate, as in
           Wolv's example.
Bram says: About wolv's example:
Arduin says: part of that can be achieved with bigger help file i
             think
Bram says: This mesg, as all other messages from the mailing group can
           be read in the ftp dirs of lysator.
Peugh says: Or a more verbose help file.
Bram says: help files are NOT interactive
Bram says: a Q/A system IS
Arduin says: i know
Freak says: how about a Q/A robot NPC
Peugh says: How many questions do you want to ask?
Arduin says: but i couldnt find the things even in THEM
Bram says: newbies hate 10Kbyte help files.
Wing says: well I could do some work on it if one else wants to
Bram says: problem with robot:
Bram says: You would first have to tell the newby how to use the
           robot.
Bram says: This is wrong...
Bram says: When using a direct Q/A NOTHING could possibly go wrong.
Pilf says:  As opposed to telling them to use ftp ?
Bram says: no...
Peugh says: Hmm, well we should give the Newbie some form of
            intelegence here.
Bram says: as opposed to telnetting to lyastor
Bram says: about this newbie:
Peugh says: Most of the time, they can work out some bits for
            themselves.
Bram says: All that is required from him/her is to telnet to
           lysator....
Peugh says: Like operating the robot?
Bram says: EVERYTHING from then on is handled by an intelligent system
Bram says: like Wings hack:
Bram says: Regenesis can actualy tell wether U R using a client, and
           if so, which one.
Freak says: which would then lead to what type of machine you are
            using
Peugh says: IF you are using a client.
Pilf nods solemnly.
Freak says: and thus whether or not you can handle 256 colors
Pilf's head shakes no.
Pilf says:  No, not necessarily.
Pilf says:  That's server dependant, not machine.
Peugh says: No, there should be some client
Peugh says: Oops. 
Bram says: The strength of Wolverines system is that you only bring up
           issues when needed, a help file cannot do this... And since
           I am pretty sure lotsa potetntial users give up, I would
           like to give it a try.
Pilf says:  Well, you are GOD here ..... who are we to stop you.
Pilf smiles at Bram.
Bram says: The reason I didnt try a 1st implementation already is
           LPCs: input_to
Freak says: Bram needs help writing all this stuff in good time
Bram says: I was thinking about avoiding this by writing seperate
           daemon...
Wing smiles happily.
Peugh says: Tha 
Bram says: This one would have to talk to the user before the LPMUD
           driver gets a chance to chat.
Wing says: I don't think it's necessary
Bram says: If it can be done in the mudlib, it would be fine as well.
Wing says: writing a lpc-daemon that handles some help-text file-format
           wouldn't be too hard
Wing says: acctually I think it would be easier than writing a daemon
           in another language
Bram says: Well, if you want to give it a try... by all means
Bram says: Did ya read the mailmesg we are refering to?
Wing nods solemnly.
Freak leaves home.
Bram says: As long as we are discussing accessability... does anyone
           have any idaes on additional meassures to improve it?
Emperor Peugh is a Wisconsonite at heart (MetaRoyalty) wraps their cloak around
them several times, looking like an idiot, and with a flash of light
they are gone.
Peugh suddenly disappears right before your eyes.
Peugh Tells All Scheppers: Sorry, have to leave now.  BIG Math test.
Bram says: Ok, the next item:
Bram says: In order to boost regenesis, the game should have some
           addictive qualities.
Bram says: it seems that many people lose interest after a first
           visit.
Arduin says: yes... i can speak from experience
Bram nods solemnly.
Bram says: Most people tend to blame this on the lack of combat
Arduin says: when i try to do something, it usually says What?
Arduin says: i think as coders you havent though enough of the things
             players will try to do
Pilf says:  Combat is an attractive aspect to some muds.
Bram says: Hmm, the frequent 'what?' is common to all muds....
Wing says: I think it's a takeoff-limit, a mud has to be of a certain
           size (or maybe with a certain numbers of players online) to
           interest more...
Arduin says: giving nice hints would be nice instead of What?
Bram says: yet... a lot of txt muds seem to be highly addictive
Wing says: noone wants to play a sud....
Bram nods solemnly.
Bram says: very true
Pilf says:  sud ?
Bram says: single user
Pilf says:  Ahhh .   sinlge.
Wing says: but regenesis is very small, and it takes much more time to
           create something here
Pilf bangs his head on the floor.
Pilf says:  Perhaps because it's LPC/LP mud ?
Bram says: Well, what do you think it is? Lack of size or lack of
           players?
Pilf says:  Anyone ever monkey with a Diku ?
Bram says: no
Wing says: a text-based mud could probably reach its takeoff-limit with
           only one or a couple of persons coding
Pilf says:  You should check out a Diku for the experience Bram.
Boob says: I still think it would be easier to get a large mud by
           adapting the graphical interface to an existing large
           system
Pilf says:  Just for a frame of reference.
Wing says: so I think only by making lots of new nifty things we would
           become something
Pilf nods solemnly.
Pilf says:  I aggree with Boob.
Wing says: I don't think bsxmud "failure" is becase it lacks a combat
           system or some other fundamental error
Bram says: an existing mud?
Pilf says:  That way we can conentrate on creating graphical interfaces
Boob says: something with well defined rooms and quests and objects
Pilf says:  instead of the acutal mud code.
Bram says: Well, a MUSH and a MUCK are adding the BSX protocol to
           their system as we speak.
Pilf says:  FOR NOW.
Boob says: didn't you write an lp mud, bram?
Bram says: write? KoBra is probably 100 Meg of LPC... let's say I
           founded it.
Wing says: I don't think it's possible to do that Boob, I think you
           want to make some things different if you make a graphical
           mud...
Wing says: like on a text-mud you normally have a lot of rooms with
           almost nothing in them
Boob says: you make it too different and you lose die hard mudders
Bram says: We could ask ourselves the question: what does this
           existing mud have that we lack?
Wing says: on a graphical mud it's so hard to draw a room so you want
           to pack a lot of thingies in it
Pilf says:  Empty rooms, that we can remove.
Pilf smiles happily.
Bram says: I have 8 on venus
Bram says: empty rooms that is
Pilf nods solemnly.
Boob says: I think BSX is just a very unfamiliar interface
Pilf nods solemnly.
Bram says: all consisting of just 2 polies
Wing personally don't care for existing die hard mudders...
Bram says: let's get back to this combat for a moment.....
Bram says: I often get complaints about players like:
Pilf says:  BUT die hard mudders are what make a mud.
Boob says: but those are the people who come back over and over
Bram says: my exp wont rise.... where do I get armour/weapons
Boob says: if you ALWAYS had a dozen people on, more newbies would
           stay
Arduin says: i dont miss combat that much, i play other mud if i want
             that...
Pilf nods solemnly.
Wing says: personally I loved BSX-mud because I didn't have to do any
           boring fighting...
Arduin says: here i would like to see QUESTS
Bram says: Thats all we have...
Pilf nods solemnly.
Bram says: problem is:
Arduin says: which use the graphics...
Pilf says:  BUT that's ALL we have.
Wing says: I think there is enough players out there who are like me,
           and therefore do not play normal muds...
Bram says: a quest is not addictive most of the time...
Pilf says:  One or two combats involved in a quest ...
Boob says: I think more impressive graphics might also help draw
           people in ..
Pilf says:  That's what Wolverine was speaking of.
Boob says: perhaps  slightly more interactive, but not necessarily
           overboard
Bram says: Do any of you guys ever played the PC game Dune2?
Boob's head shakes no.
Bram says: now THAT game has addictive qualities....
Someone's head shakes no.
Pilf says:  Ooops.
Pilf's head shakes no.
Bram says: That's mostly because you are giving everything you have to
           progress...
Wing says: I love sierra-on-line games...that's my ideal for a bsx-mud
Arduin says: hmm, roommate needs the phone... brb
Wing says: apart from the lousy parser...
Pilf says:  Explain Bram.
Bram says: It becomes an obsession to reach that next level.
Arduin is suddenly frozen in time!
Bram says: You see a challenge, and you wanna meet it.
Pilf says:  Like ?
Bram says: with levels attached to quests... thinks are different.
Pilf nods solemnly.
Pilf says:  I see.
Bram says: You know that sometime you will solve the next, and thus in
           the end make it lvl 21
Bram says: there is no tention in ther
Boob says: perhaps we just need to more explicitly tell newbies which
           quests to do and the goals
Bram says: The main problem:
Bram says: with combat you can LOOSE levels
Pilf chuckles politely.
Bram says: with quests U cant
Pilf says:  ONLY if you implement it that way.
Bram says: what way?
Pilf says:  That you loose a level with combat.
Pilf says:  Look, I'm not saying that we NEED combat ....
Bram says: It adds an element of risk to it when ya do that
Pilf says:  I'm saying that we need SOME way to hook these people.
Bram says: with our quests... there is NO risk whatsoever...
Pilf nods solemnly.
Pilf says:  Right.
Pilf says:  So what's the challenge ?
Pilf smiles happily.
Bram says: no risk means no chalenge
Wing says: well we can make the quests deadly can't we
Bram says: so what?
Pilf snickers.
Bram says: U die, and revivie
Bram says: just a little prayer in the church... and U R back
Pilf says:  But lose XP, or EQ that you need for your current level ?
Wing says: sure, but it doesn't have to be that way
Wing says: you could have to convince Lars that you deserve a second
           chanse
Pilf nods solemnly.
Pilf says:  By killing him.
Pilf throws his head back and cackles with glee!
Wing says: or something like that
Pilf says:  Just kidding.
Bram says: THE lars?
Bram says: and what? Ask him to graphicalize genesis?
Bram says: ask him to call it regenesis?
Wing says:   it was just an example Helge
Bram grins evilly.
Bram says: Helge?
Wing says: well it's a swedish phrase...
Boob says: please translate
Wing says: I did
Wing says: didn't you notice?
Boob looks dumbfounded
Bram says: When playing BSX, you dont need to make strategic
           choices.... just use some common sense.... when using
           combat you add an element of strategy, which means
           challenge, which means excitement, which means addiction.
Bram says: I think
Pilf nods solemnly.
Boob says: I think it would be a good and simple improvement to guide
           newbies through a series of quests
Bram says: What good is money on this mud?
Pilf chuckles politely.
Wing says: I do not agree, I only feel mud-combat is silly
Bram says: all ya can buy is irrelevant for the progress in the game
Bram says: doesnt need to be combat
Wing says: some people get addicted to mud-combat, but I think there
           are other things we could hook other persons on...
Boob says: we could make this a financial investment MUD!
Bram says: but it must be something that requires strategy, and risk.
           And it should cost you levels when done wrong.
Boob says: you can destroy economically weaker opponents
Bram says: nice idea.
Boob says: oops, capitalistic American minds
Boob says: I think right now people like to sell things so they have
           money
Bram says: The major thing is: when a player reached lvl 21 (s)he must
           think: for every person that succeeds, 5 must have dropped
           out... I must have had some very good strategic skills.
Boob says: but they do wonder what they're supposed to buy with it
Bram says: Someone who makes it lvl 21 here, will not have the feeling
           of accomplishing a great thing, making it against all
           odds.... Now... if you have slained a 1000 monsters you DO
           get that feeling.
Boob says: I don't think you have to have fought or killed, but you do
           need progressively more difficult challenges
Bram says: So adding risk, in any way (financial maybe even) would
           have to be thrown in
Wing says: that's because we only have a few quests
Wing says: if we had 45 like nannymud people would think they had
           accomplishing something...
Boob says: I agree
Pilf says: Are there any quest only muds currently up and running ?
Bram says: yet - you hhave had to run risks in order to feel good
           about yourself.
Bram says: no risk in our quests.,
Wing says: sure quests can be risky
Boob says: I still think you need a progression, so the first one
           isn't too tough so people aren't easily discouraged
Bram says: What if we build a real life simulator?
Bram says: Adding carreers/ income/ tax....
Boob says: right now, it's not obvious enough how to find quests
Wing says: I would like a final quest, that you get hints (and
           auto-loading objects) for by solving the normal quests
Pilf says:  Then how about creating a tour guide ?
Boob says: yes, the tax man - there's a scary challenge
Wing shivers from the cold.
Pilf says:  Something that'll take newbies on a cab, and a quick tour.
Bram says: BTW - If anyone ever did the caci quest... please help sam,
           to get him off my back.
Another fortunate creature enters the realms of BSX, Please welcome Arduin.
Boob says: I'll save him!
Bram says: it has an element of sick.
Boob dons his red cape
Bram says: rick that is
Pilf says:  What does ? Caci ?
Boob flaps his vestigial wings and waddles into oblivion.
Bram says: the taxes
Bram says: Nowhere in this mud, you have to gamble to lose all.
Bram says: Level behaviour is strictly monotone ascent.
Pilf says:  So, did I get an answer ?
Pilf says:  Is there a quest only mud operational ?
Bram says: Which question?
Bram says: Wasnt that rethorical?
Bram says: I know only 1
Wing says: don't think so
Wing says: if you find one tell me
Wing smiles happily.
Pilf says:  Besides, BSX.
Bram says: no
Pilf pokes Bram in the ribs.
Bram says: Chances are that they wouldnt survive :-) I mean: no combat
           AND no graphiocs... man... that is bad,.
Pilf nods solemnly.
Wing says: acctually many normal muds seem to be trying to get rid of
           combat, or at least reduce it's importance...
Arduin says: was wondering something awhile back... how come if this
             mud has a hi-tech look, there are SPELLS?
Pilf says:  Maybe PC combat, but not mob combat.
Bram says: a little fluke, Arduin
Arduin says: and shout command too? maybe it should be some
             walkie-talkie thing...
Bram says: or a portable internet terminal
Arduin says: that would be great
Bram says: that goes cross-planet
Arduin says: log in virtual reality in virtual reality in...
Bram nods solemnly.
Bram says: tell me arduin, what do you think about the addictive
           qualities iof BSX?
Boob slowly shimmers into sight.
Arduin says: first the graphics was just great...
Arduin says: but then, when i couldnt do the quests...
Arduin says: and there wasnt much else to do
Arduin says: i lost interested after i had visited everyplace
Arduin says: about
Bram nods solemnly.
Bram says: So, you all think there is nothing wrong with quest-only, 
           even though it doesnot pose any risks?
Jacques is suddenly frozen in time!
Arduin says: hmm, some quests could have fights...
Bram says: what sense would it have? If you die, your lvl would remain
           the same.
Wing says: I think there should be challeges in quests
Bram says: challenges or risks?
Pilf says:  both.
Wing agrees with Pilf.
Bram says: what risks?
Bram says: risking your level?
Wing says: no
Bram says: your hp?
Pilf's head shakes no.
Wing says: I don't like levels
Bram says: your money?
Pilf says:  Hp is useless if no combat.
Wing nods solemnly.
Arduin says: some muds have age... you die -> get older -> die
Wing says: maybe being imprisoned
Bram frowns.
Wing says: maybe dieing, losing all money, having to go through a
           really boring death-sequence
Pilf says:  You lose the EQ currenlty needed to complete the quest for
           you next level.
Arduin says: NOT BORING!
Bram says: failure to solve a quest results in detention?
Arduin says: i hate that
Wing says: that's the point
Wing smiles at Arduin.
Bram says: so you risk detention.... so what... you just log on at
           night, and do your time, while being logged oof
Pilf's head shakes no.
Pilf says:  No, you lose all the EQ you accumulated for your current
           quest.
Bram says: What is EQ?
Wing says: no, getting out of prison would of course be a quest by
           itself
Arduin says: equipment
Pilf says: If I died on Charon, I'd loose the walkie talkie, code
           book, detonator ...
Pilf says:  EQ = equipment
Wing says: and we could make money count sometime in the future
Bram says: What if we would add time limits to the quests?
Pilf's head shakes no.
Bram says: We gotta have something to scare them with
Wing says: so you had to do some easy, but rather boring quest to get
           cash...
Bram says: Normal muds use death
Pilf says:  Time would be tough.
Boob says: you could give time bonus money, or make them "buy" time
Wing says: money can be used for many things, taxis, buying nicer
           apartments, buying space-shit etc
Arduin grins evilly.
Boob says: taxis - great idea
Pilf nods solemnly.
Bram says: Nice!
Pilf says:  Space shit ....
Wing says: players would try to get money instead of xp
Pilf ponders the idea.
Boob says: well you can already obtain and sell objects
Bram sees some light at the end of the tunnel
Wing says: much more realistic and would probably have the same effect
Pilf says:  So how will one earn money ?
Bram says: the good thing about it is: solving a quest quickly will
           gain you money = power
Bram says: This adds an element to the quest
Boob says: ooh,  more capitalist pig talk
Pilf falls down laughing.
Bram says: But this money should be needed for the next quest...
Pilf nods solemnly.
Boob says: by charging for taxis you accomplish that!
Bram says: So if you fail one, it looks grim for ya.... without
           money.... you cant buy time for a quest.
Wing says: or buy having quests where you are required to buy
           something, instead of just finding it lying on the ground
Boob says: you can always find more stuff and sell it
Bram says: A little scenario:
Bram says: a new player is created....
Bram says: he gets 1000 time units...
Bram says: when his time is up, he dies... .o is deleted.
Bram says: every time he solves a quest, he gets another 500
Bram says: Doing 1 quest very fast will yield extra time for a more
           diff. quest
Arduin says: there should be also a possibility to buy time units with
             cash = expensive
Bram says: there is only 1 prob:
Boob says: I'd sure hate to die on the 10th quest - I'd never come
           back
Bram says: SUppose I die at lvl 3........
Arduin thinks deeply on a great philosophical problem.
Wing says: I don't think that is a good idea
Wing says: I think the only thing we should have is money
Arduin says: maybe not die just like that...
Bram says: I could get a new char... and solve the 2 VERY fast
Bram says: so after each death it gets easier.
Wing says: being broke should be a pain in the ass
Boob says: could you steal money from others?
Arduin grins evilly.
Wing says: but we could have real death
Bram says: yeah sure.... put 1000 Volts thru internet?
Wing says: so in some quest you can get killed, and then you have to
           start over again
Wing says: but I don't like the time idea
Wing says: it doesn't seem realistic
Pilf says:  So how do you die without the combat ?
Bram says: Ok, if you want to make money essential: question is : how?
Pilf says:  A brick falls on your head ?
Pilf says:  Without a hardhat .... You Die.
Boob says: how about food?
Bram says: another possibility....
Arduin says: heh, the mud i mentioned earlier:
Boob says: that's a "familiar" item missing from regenesis
Arduin says: you gotta eat to stay alive
Bram nods solemnly.
Arduin says: as well as growing older
Boob says: need fountain of youth too!
Arduin says: but you can buy potions of longevity...
Arduin says: or do other tricks
Wing says: money could be made essential by charging for
           everything...and making nifty things to buy
Pilf grins evilly.
Bram says: money should be essential not just for nifty stuff, but for
           making it to lvl 21
Bram says: question is how? All ya have to do are quests....
Arduin says: how about quest points? special kind of wealth... you can
             have a wish from a wiz with,say, 3 qp and wish for new
             body etc.
Wing says: quests costs
Bram says: with combat you could by a very good but expensive weapon
Boob says: you could tell players they need x amount to advance to
           next quest/level
Pilf throws approximately 132,432 large red bricks into sky.
Pilf grins evilly.
Pilf says:  Sorry ... lost my head.
Boob kicks Pilf.
Pilf giggles inanely.
Bram reincarnates
Pilf falls down laughing.
Pilf says:  Um, that'll cost you 300 time usnit.
Pilf says:  Units.
Pilf smiles at Bram.
Wing says: and we could have some schepper-quest, for which you need
           to buy something really expensive (like a space-ship) +
           getting a lot of stuff and hints from the other quests
Boob Boob is reincarnated as a ... Boob
Arduin says: there was a movie where each baby got 1000 years when
             he/she was born...
Wing says: if you ever get broke you have to start over earning the
           money for the space-ship
Arduin says: time was use as money... 2 hours for cigarette etc.
Boob says: only one hour for "low-tar"
Arduin falls down laughing.
Bram coughs noisily.
Bram says: The issue of regenesis needs a lot more debate... however..
Boob lights up a stoagy
Bram says: ... I suggest we go to the BSX/protocol issue
Bram says: Ok with U?
Boob nods solemnly.
Arduin nods solemnly.
Pilf nods solemnly.
Bram says: We have several suggestions...
Wing smiles happily.
Wing nods solemnly.
Bram says: 1) 256 colours
Bram says: 2) 3D world coords
Bram says: 3) Head mounted display + dataglove
Bram says: 3) was not serious
Bram smiles happily.
Boob says: 1 should be pretty easy, no?
Pilf nods solemnly.
Bram says: depends
Pilf says:  These aren't exclusive I take it ?
Bram says: depends on how you feel about backward compat.
Bram says: No
Bram says: not excl.
Pilf says:  Backwartd compat ?
Boob says: I don't think backward compatibility is too important
Pilf says:  Backward to who ?
Wing says: $@#@%# backwards compatibility
Pilf chuckles politely.
Boob says: we can always write tools to translate
Pilf says:  We're trying to move FORWARD.
Wing agrees with Boob.
Bram says: One scheme would be to map the 16 colours to the 16 lower
           colours of the 256
Pilf nods solemnly.
Bram says: as it is now:
Pilf shrugs helplessly.
Pilf says:  I don't think it's an issue.
Pilf says:  256 in '93.
Pilf smiles happily.
Bram says: we have only 8 colours.... all in 2 brightness values
Wing says: I think we should go directly to 24-bit colors
Pilf says:  No, not 24.
Pilf's head shakes no.
Wing says: and use colormaps to reduce band-width
Boob says: 24-bit???? 
Boob says: ack 
Bram says: We could use 8 colours, in 32 brightness values.
Pilf says:  24 bit would be a severe limitation to about 90 % of the
           real wolrd.
Pilf says:  World even.
Boob says: 95% 
Pilf's head shakes no.
Pilf says:  93%
Wing says: that's a system that will last, I think we'll have to scrap
           8-bit someday if we implement it...
Pilf tackles Boob to the ground.  OUCH!
Wing says: why?
Pilf says:  Doubt it.
Pilf says:  Because 24 bit true color has not taken off in the real
           world.
Wing says: converting from 24-bit to vga would for example be no
           problems
Boob says: I think
Boob says: therefore i am, oops
Bram says: No - but it would mean a VERY diff. BSX protocol
Wing says: no, it wouldn't
Wing smiles happily.
Pilf says:  I know of about 3 or 4 workstations locally that are 24
           bit...
Bram says: DFO would chance
Pilf says:  Out of oh .... 200 ?
Bram says: change that is
Bram says: we have just 1 24-bitter here.... and 100s of others
Pilf nods solemnly.
Bram says: However... in 3 years we will ALL use 24-bit dps
Pilf says:  It would be a bad limitation.
Pilf's head shakes no.
Pilf says:  I still don't agree with that.
Pilf's head shakes no.
Wing says: we'll most pcs handle 18 bits...
Pilf says:  What does 24 bit *REALLY* get you ?
Bram says: 18 bits suck....
Boob says: 32,000,0,00,0000,0,0 colors
Bram says: Elegance fro the programmers point of view
Pilf chuckles politely.
Bram says: a byte per R/G/B
Pilf says:  Elegance ? How so ?
Bram says: programming couldnt be easier
Pilf says:  Unfortunately, it's slow and expensive ...
Boob says: I think we'd be fine with a 256 color map.
Bram says: If I want extra red in a pic, I just increase a singlebyte
Pilf's head shakes no.
Boob says: we DO have to download all this stuff to clients at some
           point
Pilf says:  No no .... I KNOW the diffs, but what's going to drive the
           market ?
Bram says: The advantage of 8 bit, is that we can keep the current BXS
           protocol
Pilf nods solemnly.
Pilf says:  RIGH!
Pilf says:  T!
Pilf blushes.
Wing says: besides with 8-bit colors we don't even get tha capability
           of a pc...
Boob says: not to mention the BSX protocol
Boob says: sorry 
Bram says: But that disadvantage would drop if we were to go to 3d
           world coords
Pilf nods solemnly.
Bram says: that would seriously mess up the proto anyways
Wing says: and with the system I'm thinking of would not increase
           band-width very much...
Pilf stares unbelievably at his bandwidth going to hell.
Bram says: only a few %
Wing says: because you would use a colormap, that translates 8-bit
           values to 24-bit colors
Bram says: if 24-bit means 20% more traffic, it would be much.
Bram says: You forget something, wing:
Bram says: No need for colourmaps
Wing says: the increase would be the specification of a colormap for
           each object, and transmitting the colormap
Wing says: no, colormaps are for saving band-width...
Bram says: The colour is only 3 bytes for each poly, which in it's
           turn can be 64 bytes.... see?
Pilf says:  Now WAIT a second ?????
Bram says: only 5%
Wing agrees with Bram.
Bram says: It's not a 3-fold increment
Bram says: it's a 5-10% incr.
Bram says: But: it means redoing ALL locations AND the protocol
Bram says: however...
Bram says: 8 bit can remain compatible with BOTH old locations AND
           protocol
Wing says: well I've felt that that has to be done anyway
Wing grins evilly.
Bram nods solemnly.
Wing says: since the protocol is a large hack
Wing smiles at Bram.
Bram says: The protocol/client changes: ok.... but can we expect ALL
           scheppers who ever build, to redraw/reprogram/ whatevere?
Pilf chuckles politely.
Bram says: just for 24bit colour?
Wing says: conversion won't be too hard
Bram says: Which 99% of the people wont be able to view?
Wolverine slowly shimmers into sight.
Pilf nods solemnly.
Wing says: it's not only for 24-bit...
Bram thinks Wing has a 24-bit SGI on hos desk
Wolverine says: there was no quiz!
Wing says: besides 99% of the people would see the change
Pilf says:  THAT'S the problem: Which 99% of the people wont be able to
           view?
Wing says: because they have 18-bit vga...
Wolverine waves.
Bram says: Hi WOlvie
Bram says: We've been talking about U
Wolverine says: will one individual tell me what I missed?
Wing says: I don't think you will use more than 256 24-bit colors in
           one scene...
Bram says: Your proposal gets implemented
Bram points at Wing and looks away
Wolverine says: My proposal?
Bram says: as U stated in your letter of 15 feb
Wolverine says: Wing's proposal.
Wing says: better help at first login
Wolverine says: gotcha.
Bram says: Q/A system to lead newbies by the hand
Bram says: Hello Wolverine, which machine do you have? A: Amiga Reply:
           that's a fine machnine.  *LAUGH*
Pilf says:  Wing, if you don't think you'll ever use more than 256
           24-bit colors in one scene, then why bother w/24-bi?
Boob flaps his vestigial wings and waddles into oblivion.
Wing says: because you can't choose the right 256 colors
Wolverine says: I am on a Sparc IPX with 24 bit graphics at the
                moment.
Wing says: someday someone would want to draw a golden coin
Bram looks at wolverine with envy
Pilf says:  Yes, if you colormap you can.
Wolverine says: the Amiga supports a simultaneous 4096 colors
Wing says: it won't be possible with 8-bit colors
Bram says: If it has to be 24-bit, I wouldnt like palettes/colourmaps
Pilf says:  If it's 24 bit, you don't NEED palettes/colourmaps
Bram says: True
Jacques is destructed by anti-linkdead matter.
Wing says: depends on the implementation
Bram says: I have another colour related suggestion:
Pilf says:  I think the current limitations in the color scheme,
           expanded to 256, would solve alot of our probs.
Bram says: suppose we give the server control over an 8-bit palette of
           the client....
Bram says: Then we could implement dawn:
Bram says: gradualy add brightness..
Bram says: imagine:
Bram says: a dark room
Bram says: all colour have brightness 0
Wolverine says: that sounds nice.
Bram says: Then a single torch goes on:
Bram says: all colours get 10% brightness
Bram says: a 2nd torch: 20%
Pilf nods solemnly.
Wing says: well, I think it would be hard to code...
Pilf says:  That would be neeat.
Wolverine `s eyes flutter in wonder.
Bram says: Full day light at 12:00 100%
Bram says: in the open air at 18:00 : 50%
Bram says: You could get time of day
Bram smiles happily.
Wolverine says: sounds like a game called Faery Tale by Mircro
                Illusions
Bram says: just gradualy increase the brightness of all locations in
           open air
Bram says: In a building however:
Bram says: we use a simple lightswitch between 0 and 70%
Wing says: I think it's better to implement several colormaps that
           could be changed
Bram says: Why?
Bram says: There is no reason to have cmaps, when you go 24 bit.
Bram says: Let's say U design that golden coin, OK?
Wolverine says: guys, are the details essential now, or when you start
                programming?
Wing says: because it would be too hard to figure out what color to
           use with a global colormap...
Bram says: Now I design a windmill with totaly diff. cmap....
Wing says: better if I could say that color 0 is blue in my area...
Bram says: What happens if I drop your coin at my mill?
Wing says: nothing really exciting
Bram says: we clash cmaps!
Wolverine says: Bram has a point, wing.
Bram says: which cmap to use?
Wing says: the client uses colormap 1 for tha coin and colormap 2 for
           the mill
Wolverine says: I know all about this.
Bram says: yours? the mill looks shit
Peugh slowly shimmers into sight.
Bram says: mine? the coin look  brown
Peugh says: Still talkin.
Wing says: nope
Wing says: we have several colormaps
Wing says: not one global
Boob slowly shimmers into sight.
Wolverine says: he is trying to explain that color maps will conflict
                with each othr unless they are done by the same user.
Wing says: that can be used at tthe same time
Wing says: no point
Bram says: with 24-bit we have a HUGE global colourmap that suits
           everyone.
Pilf says:  *IF* the machine is true color.
Pilf doubles over and pukes.
Bram says: Your golden coin can use it. and my mill
Wolverine says: If the machine is true color, then yes, your point is
                sensible, but with 256 colors, it may not.
Pilf drops the record.
Wing says: well using more than 256 colors at the same time is a
           problem
Wolverine says: oh, and if we are choosing a palette of some sort, I
                think that I might have some input (as an artist) on
                color choices for realism
Pilf left the realms of bsx, and now has to deal with the harsh cold world outside.
Bram says: there is always the HSV model
Bram says: to suit artists.
Wolverine smiles happily.
Bram says: about the 3D extention: I am affraid that you have to
           debate that without me.... this building closes at 18:00
           GMT.
Wolverine says: did it pass?
Wolverine says: are we going 3D?
Wing says: but I don't really care whether we implement 24-bit colors
           or 24-bit colormaps...
Bram says: I do: lets go for 24-bit true
Wing says: just don't implement 8-bit direct color...
Bram says: then a 8-bit drop the 16 LSB
Arduin is magically transfered here.
Arduin is magically transfered somewhere else.
Bram says: sure
Wolverine says: yeah, and leave out every single user who uses a PC or
                AMiga or Mac client
Emperor Peugh is a Wisconsonite at heart (MetaRoyalty) wraps their cloak around
them several times, looking like an idiot, and with a flash of light
they are gone.
Peugh suddenly disappears right before your eyes.
Bram says: 8 bit direct
Arduin is magically transfered somewhere else.
Wing says: wolverine we won't leave out pc or mac uses
Freak slowly shimmers into sight.
Bram says: on EGA: the 18 LSB bits are dropped
Wing says: since we won't use that many colors simultainiously
Wolverine says: with 24 bit, youwill leave out any AMiga user who
                doesn't have an A1200 or A4000
Wing agrees with Bram.
Wolverine says: oh, so you will scale it down then?
Bram nods solemnly.
Bram says: drop LSB bits
Wing says: sure
Wolverine says: somebody better tell Ferry that he has some
                programming ahead of him...`
Peugh slowly shimmers into sight.
Wolverine says: I had better go to lecture now, where is the log being
                kept?
Bram says: anyways... I gotta leave the buidling now....
Bram says: We should continue this sometime, over LYSKOM or something
Wing says: well I'll put the log on lysators ftp
Wing says: yes
Freak says: thankyou Mr. President
Bram says: thanks...
Bram says: I wanna thank U all for your input
Bram waves.
Bram says: I will
Bram left the realms of bsx, and now has to deal with the harsh cold world outside.
Peugh clicks his heels and salutes Bram.
Freak says: wow! 
Wolverine says: bye guys, I have class.
Wolverine waves.
Freak says: this has been a truly historic occasion
Peugh waves.
Wing says: yes
Wing says: but we didn't get to the interesting parts
Wing sighs deeply.
Peugh says: Anyone for a donut?
Freak says: what are they?
Peugh says: Donuts?  Little round things with holes in the middle.
Peugh says: Really good.
Freak says: no what are the interesting parts we missed?
Freak giggles inanely.
Freak pokes Peugh in the ribs.
Wing says: extensions to the protocol
Freak says: getting a little fat peugh
Wing says: like sane position of objects
Wing says: scaling of objects
Wing says: turning objects