From tariqas-approval Fri Nov 3 15:51:56 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05175; Fri, 3 Nov 1995 22:52:00 -0500 Received: from orion.it.luc.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05165; Fri, 3 Nov 1995 22:51:58 -0500 Received: (from stourk@localhost) by orion.it.luc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA112866; Fri, 3 Nov 1995 21:51:56 -0600 Date: Fri, 3 Nov 1995 21:51:56 -0600 (CST) From: Sonia Tourk To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: "Islamic/Sufi Study in Cairo" Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Cairo I first encountered your welcoming brown face the second night I arrived in Cairo; the ease of your smile as you hugged me - your capable, warm hand reaching unhesitatingly to give me the key to your apartment Egyptian wool rugs covered the floors, singing along with the swirling Arabic calligraphy pieces on the walls, in praise of The Loving and the Mercy sent to us. Flat cushions lining the room, no furniture, no tables, no chairs - nothing to bump into as I turned off the light. I was to sleep on the cushions and by all rights should have been tired But as I lay down I felt their energy. I couldn't sleep as there were so many angels bouncing off of the walls, careening about with no energy ever lost. Lost wholly in their eternal worship of The Divine One. They never stop, They only increase in their servitude. And for that night, in that place, I let them invigorate me. I don't know how long I prayed that night, the angels whooshing around me in the clamour of their worship. Pressing my forehead into the short wool fibers as I stretched my arms across the rug, above my head standing and then prostrating myself again. If I accidentally let any angels out when I left I'm sure that more will come to take their place. Sonia Tourk From tariqas-approval Sat Nov 4 03:52:39 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05752; Fri, 3 Nov 1995 22:53:29 -0500 Received: from sowebo.charm.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05742; Fri, 3 Nov 1995 22:53:27 -0500 Message-Id: <9511032253.AA06338@sowebo.charm.net> Received: from charm.net by sowebo.charm.net; Fri, 3 Nov 95 22:53 EST From: tony@charm.net To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: GAY GENE 'DISCOVERY' IS CHALLENGED Date: Sat, 04 Nov 1995 03:52:39 GMT Content-Length: 1235 Content-Type: text Organization: Rodgers Forge in Baltimore, Maryland References: <9511040332.AA18358@cwis.unomaha.edu> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99b.113 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 3 Nov 1995 09:38:24 -0600 (CST), you wrote: > 786 > >asalaam > >dear brothers/sisters: > >i came across this LA Times syndicated editorial last night and felt > >the need to pass it on to those of you who might not have access to it. > >it is entitled, "Gay Gene 'Discovery' Is Challenged", and was written by > >conservative author Cal Thomas. please read it as it is an interesting > >piece and exposes the relationhship that exists between the media and > >the homosexual advocacy groups here in the u.s. the empahses in this > >article are of my own initiative. > >wasalaam > >abdul ghani assalaam alaikum, I read this column in the Baltimore Sun. I can't agree with this proposition of a "relationship" between the media and homosexual advocacy groups. It sounds like more of poor Cal's paranoia that people who disagree with him are acting in concert. Cal Thomas is one of the more reactionary, and narrow conservative columnists around. He has his own agenda which would be made infinitely more difficult if a "gay gene" were proved (which all would agree has not been done). Tony tony@charm.net "He has his law degree and a furnished office. It's just a question now of getting him out of bed." From tariqas-approval Sat Nov 4 06:04:28 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29632; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 01:05:10 -0500 Received: from ugly.microserve.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29623; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 01:05:08 -0500 Received: from sarmad-ppp.clark.net by ugly.Microserve.Net with SMTP (8.6.10/25-eef) id BAA07266; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 01:05:05 -0500 Message-Id: <199511040605.BAA07266@ugly.Microserve.Net> From: brody@trace.microserve.net (James Brody) To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: change address Date: Sat, 04 Nov 1995 06:04:28 GMT X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99b.112 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Change Email address from sarmad@clark.net to brodybro@microserve.net From tariqas-approval Fri Nov 3 18:33:58 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07160; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 01:33:29 -0500 Received: from cwis.unomaha.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07141; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 01:33:26 -0500 Received: by cwis.unomaha.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA10090; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 00:33:58 -0600 Message-Id: <9511040633.AA10090@cwis.unomaha.edu> Subject: Re: GAY GENE 'DISCOVERY' IS CHALLENGED To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Sat, 4 Nov 1995 00:33:58 -0600 (CST) From: Richard Bennett Cc: rbennett@cwis.unomaha.edu In-Reply-To: <9511032253.AA06338@sowebo.charm.net> from "tony@charm.net" at Nov 4, 95 03:52:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1578 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: > > On Fri, 3 Nov 1995 09:38:24 -0600 (CST), you wrote: > > > 786 > > > >asalaam > > > >dear brothers/sisters: > > > >i came across this LA Times syndicated editorial last night and felt > > > >the need to pass it on to those of you who might not have access to it. > > > >it is entitled, "Gay Gene 'Discovery' Is Challenged", and was written by > > > >conservative author Cal Thomas. please read it as it is an interesting > > > >piece and exposes the relationhship that exists between the media and > > > >the homosexual advocacy groups here in the u.s. the empahses in this > > > >article are of my own initiative. > > > >wasalaam > > > >abdul ghani > > > assalaam alaikum, > > I read this column in the Baltimore Sun. I can't agree with this > proposition of a "relationship" between the media and homosexual > advocacy groups. It sounds like more of poor Cal's paranoia that > people who disagree with him are acting in concert. Cal Thomas is one > of the more reactionary, and narrow conservative columnists around. He > has his own agenda which would be made infinitely more difficult if a > "gay gene" were proved (which all would agree has not been done). > > > Tony > > tony@charm.net > > "He has his law degree and a furnished office. > It's just a question now of getting him out of bed." > 786 asalaam if you disagree with his proposition and his percieved paranoia then why not look at the facts of the study etc and draw your own conclusion? don't just turn you mind off because "oh no! its that cal thomas again." wasalaam> > > From tariqas-approval Fri Nov 3 16:52:56 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07910; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 03:53:00 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07899; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 03:52:58 -0500 Received: from linda.teleport.com (bergner@linda.teleport.com [192.108.254.12]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA13785 for ; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 00:52:57 -0800 From: Paul Bergner Message-Id: <199511040852.AAA13785@desiree.teleport.com> Subject: Re: GAY GENE 'DISCOVERY' IS CHALLENGED To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Sat, 4 Nov 1995 00:52:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <9511040332.AA18358@cwis.unomaha.edu> from "Richard Bennett" at Nov 3, 95 09:38:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 131 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Asalaamu alaikum. Could someone please inform me what in the world this topic is doing on the tariqas mail group? Abdul Mustafa From tariqas-approval Fri Nov 3 23:38:22 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11202; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 10:38:34 -0500 Received: from lafn.org by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11182; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 10:38:31 -0500 Received: by lafn.org id AA02873 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for tariqas@world.std.com); Sat, 4 Nov 1995 07:38:22 -0800 Date: Sat, 4 Nov 1995 07:38:22 -0800 Message-Id: <199511041538.AA02873@lafn.org> From: an525@lafn.org (Ivan Ickovits) To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Meditation on Wittgenstein Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: greetings asha: Soapdish on > ><<628. So we could say: The arbitrary movement is characerized by the >absence of astonishment. And now I don't want, that one asks "But why >don't we astonish here?">> Is there any arbitrary movement? The prverbial question of freewill vs predestiny. Qaza and Qadr? > >Boy oh boy! It is like a mystery...... > You are astonished when you are observer (shahid) You are not just an >observer when you identify with the acting, as in personal will. In Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, the act of observation always has an effect on the observation, the observer, the observed. (Love Lover and Beloved or Knowledge, the known, and the knower are all linked as one). > Why is a person astonished when in the state of observation? Well >presumably because the process of awakening involves allowing yourself to >identify with god's point of view as your own. Which is to say that being >awake requires you to lay yourself as an open field upon which god sows the >seed, and that seed is allways so much more than you could have drawn >(conceived) of out of your own identitiy that you are quite astonished and >overwhelmed. Perhaps the reason for astonisment is the ablility to see how >amazing the act is, or perhaps it is the ability to act (or see) far beyond >the capacity of that with which you had previously identified yourself. > So I think he may simply be refering to the capacity of awakening from >one's personal and limited identity which one does through self observation. >Perhaps this is why some scientists have spoken of wonder as being so crucial >to their own scientific process of discovery; that it is impossible to >discover without wonder. Observation without wonder is observation with a >bias, and therefore not observation at all. Is it truly possible to have observation without wonder? or observation without a bias? I.e. In this tavern of ruin choose your intoxicants carefully, but be assured we all choose our intoxicants. > Asha > > Raqib n Santa Moncia (Ibn Soapdish) Soapdish Off -- q k From tariqas-approval Fri Nov 3 00:11:14 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29184; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 13:38:59 -0500 Received: from relay5.UU.NET by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29173; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 13:38:58 -0500 Received: from espace.dcl.com by relay5.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzokw26935; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 13:38:54 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Received: from forthd by espace.dcl.com (MX V3.1C) with UUCP; Sat, 04 Nov 1995 10:38:33 PST Received: by forthd.dcl.com (DECUS UUCP /2.0/2.0/2.0/); Sat, 4 Nov 95 10:21:14 PST Received: from fifthd by fifthd.uucp (UUPC/extended 1.12b) with UUCP; Fri, 03 Nov 1995 00:11:20 GMT From: Caravan To: wh@seas.upenn.edu, tariqas@world.std.com Date: Fri, 3 Nov 1995 00:11:14 GMT+6 Subject: departures Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Peace be with you >From Fakhruddin 'Iraqi (my t.) "Is it the wine within that makes the goblet flash? Or sunlight gleaming unobscured through clouds? So clear this wine - so clear this glass, the two could be one! Perhaps all is glass and no wine, perhaps all is wine and no glass!" Zia, you can spill such wine on my prayer-rug anytime. The venerable Achan Sa Subato kept a beautiful glass vessel in a precarious place on his windowsill. A visitor asked him, wasn't he afraid it would fall and break? His response was, "This glass is so pretty, and so perfect in form, I enjoy it very much! Its very exquisiteness and delicacy means it must break some day. Knowing its nature, knowing it is in fact already broken, I enjoy it even more!" Khadim and I need to withdraw from this forum for a few days, although we would love to follow some recent threads of conversation. She will moderate a panel at a regional conference on family counselling, then Ana arrives, then they hold their retreat, and I'm supposed to be in a distant city for dhikr, all with the demands of daily life. In the middle of this, we are grieving for the loss of a true friend of the heart. (Thank you, Eric and Mateen and Jibrael, for your kind thoughts.) Life is indeed a journey. Best wishes and travel safely, - Daniel Muzaffer Donnell -- Caravan khadim@forthd.dcl.com From tariqas-approval Fri Nov 3 01:29:08 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03904; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 15:02:12 -0500 Received: from relay5.UU.NET by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03884; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 15:02:10 -0500 Received: from espace.dcl.com by relay5.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzolc10131; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 15:02:04 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Received: from forthd by espace.dcl.com (MX V3.1C) with UUCP; Sat, 04 Nov 1995 12:01:46 PST Received: by forthd.dcl.com (DECUS UUCP /2.0/2.0/2.0/); Sat, 4 Nov 95 11:42:31 PST Received: from fifthd by fifthd.uucp (UUPC/extended 1.12b) with UUCP; Fri, 03 Nov 1995 01:29:16 GMT From: Caravan To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Fri, 3 Nov 1995 01:29:08 GMT+6 Subject: what next Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Peace be with you I am not a spokesperson for the Nur-al-Jerrahi circle of Lex Hixon, but a few people have asked me via private postings if I knew what would become of his circle. I will only respond with excerpts from a communication from Feriha and Haydar, who are very close to him, dated September 19th of this year. At one time, Khadim and I did work within Lex's organization, an enriching and perplexing role. What is real is real and will continue. * "The light, the Nur, which he [Shaikh Muzaffer Ashki al-Jerrahi] carried, entered all those who took hand with him, entered fully Nur al-Anwar, and spread out from him to all those to whom he in turn gave hand. This light is now in each dervish of the tariqa. This light is flowing through the body of the tariqa. This light is the light of truth, the light of guidance, the light of the Beloved. This light flashes from the heart of each dervish to all the dervishes. Nur is asking us now to focus consciously on this light, to see it and receive it from eachother, to offer it to eachother...We need not feel that because of Nur's temporary physical absence we have nowhere to turn, or that we must try to seek out other shaikhs for our spiritual guidance. Nur, and the light of Nur, is within each of us and within the body of the order as a whole, completely and without limits. There are only limits we ourselves bring. So let us praise Allah, the Ever Present, and let us see the greatness in each other, Nur says, for in seeing this, we will see Allah". >From Lex Hixon directly, "No one is his or her own spiritual leader. Even the prophets, upon them all be peace, remained always under the direct guidance of Allah Most High. We are also directly under Allah's guidance, but in addition we are under the spiritual leadership of those whom Allah has appointed to be our guides - this includes our Sheikh, of course, but also members of our family, close friends, and even unknown people from the street. Allah's Divine Guidance can and does come from every unexpected direction. Given that we are never "our own" leaders, we can certainly become spiritual leaders "in our own right"...this is my prayer for all of you! No more childlike dependence on some authority figure! Fariha and Haydar's letter expresses my feelings perfectly - truly, better than I could express them. These open letters are meant to be seen by every dervish, wherever he or she may be found. Please take the responsibility to carry this out. All love, Nur" * This is not of particular interest to every member of this forum, but what may well amount to the last instructions of a guide on a path are, one thinks, of interest and usefulness to all on The Path. While Lex Hixon had a good relationship with Sh Muzaffer Effendi and Sh Sefer Dall Effendi, he did not have permission to name others khalifs and so on in the Khalwati-Jerrahi, although he did give such responsibilities on a heart-level. Some of those who worked with him have sought and obtained verification of their spiritual status and outward role from Sh Sefer Dal Effendi i Istanbul. - Daniel Muzaffer Donnell -- Caravan khadim@forthd.dcl.com From tariqas-approval Sat Nov 4 11:04:28 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27673; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 16:04:31 -0500 Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27660; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 16:04:29 -0500 Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA26531 for tariqas@world.std.com; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 16:04:28 -0500 Date: Sat, 4 Nov 1995 16:04:28 -0500 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Message-Id: <951104160427_80964097@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Meditation on Wittgenstein Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: To Thomas, Asha, Soapdish, and all: just a note on what we're talking about here in this line of notes: In more readable English this section (Sect. 628, from Philosophical Investigations by Wittgenstein) reads: So one might say, voluntary movement is marked by the absence of surprize. And now I do not want you to ask, "But WHY isn't one surprized here?" "arbitrary" (instead of the above "voluntary") _is_ a meaning for the German adjective here (willkuerliche or willk"urliche) but is rather odd in the context... The contrast set up in the sections surrounding this quoted one has to do with personal foreknowledge -- an understanding that we are about to do something when that is our intention (hence, one sort of non-surprize when we then do what we were intent on). This sort of foreknowledge is not that of a seer, which is another contrast that Wittgenstein is talking about. Still, there's really no compelling reason to go back to the original context to see what the point of his comments and questions were. We can go off in any direction that inspires us, in the way of the mysterious flow of ideas (very Wittgensteinian as a precursor of hypertext).... Jinavamsa >greetings asha: >Soapdish on >><<628. So we could say: The arbitrary movement is characerized by the >>absence of astonishment. And now I don't want, that one asks "But why >>don't we astonish here?">> > > From tariqas-approval Sat Nov 4 12:05:23 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23993; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 17:05:26 -0500 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23962; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 17:05:24 -0500 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA18371 for tariqas@world.std.com; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 17:05:23 -0500 Date: Sat, 4 Nov 1995 17:05:23 -0500 From: ASHA101@aol.com Message-Id: <951104170523_12860934@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Meditation on Wittgenstein Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Dear Raqib, <> Isn't this what plowing especially is all about? The ability to uproot all impressions takes away bias only if you live in trust. So perhaps observation could be described as trust and astonishment or in one word wonderment? Asha From tariqas-approval Sat Nov 4 12:42:36 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17202; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 17:42:38 -0500 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17188; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 17:42:37 -0500 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA09840 for tariqas@world.std.com; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 17:42:36 -0500 Date: Sat, 4 Nov 1995 17:42:36 -0500 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Message-Id: <951104174235_12885532@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: plowing (ex Meditation on Wittgenstein) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: To: tariqas@world.std.com Re: plowing (ex Meditation on Wittgenstein) Hello Asha and all, Concerning plowing, uprooting, with the key element of trust: may I urge this discussion a bit further, as follows? What is this trust, described in other words? In a most straight-forward way, this might easily (without much work) be described in religious terms, perhaps. (Or am I mixing trust with faith, unwarrented by your post?) My question, in either case, is other: As far as the experience itself goes, what are we talking about? When we are paying attention to what is happening, what is the frame of mind (or of heart, if you prefer) that rides on trust, that makes it that bias does not rule the experience? Is "non-trust" as accurate a way of describing this frame of heart-mind as "trust"? in peace, Jinavamsa In a message dated 95-11-04 17:11:48 EST, you write: >Isn't this what plowing especially is all about? The ability to uproot all >impressions takes away bias only if you live in trust. So perhaps observation >could be described as trust and astonishment or in one word wonderment? > Asha From tariqas-approval Sat Nov 4 13:41:46 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11523; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 18:41:48 -0500 Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11504; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 18:41:47 -0500 Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA08348 for tariqas@world.std.com; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 18:41:46 -0500 Date: Sat, 4 Nov 1995 18:41:46 -0500 From: ASHA101@aol.com Message-Id: <951104184145_98053355@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Meditation on Wittgenstein Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Dear Jinvamsa <>> why IS one surprized? For the opposite reason that one isn't surprised? One is not surprized becasue one thinks "I am doing this" and thus is not aware of who is really doing this, or to use Raqib's thought about the Hiesenberg principle, if you are the inside the principle looking out, in other words if you are the scientist who is observing then you wouldn't notice the effect that you have on the experiment, so you have to observe the observer, which, as Raquib point out is in infinite regress but as Buddah point out, why don't you try it! So, why IS one surpirized. Because you must be Hiesenberg, watching; and who is himself, a wonderment. Voluntarily arbirarily yours, Asha From tariqas-approval Wed Nov 4 13:40:41 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11740; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 18:42:25 -0500 Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11728; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 18:42:23 -0500 Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA28249; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 18:42:18 -0500 Date: 04 Nov 95 18:40:41 EST From: Tasnim Fernandez <74252.13@compuserve.com> To: Paul Bergner Subject: Re: GAY GENE 'DISCOVERY' IS CHALLENGED Message-Id: <951104234040_74252.13_BHR61-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Salaams, Brothers and sisters! Had to answer the question "why is this stuff on tariqas?" that abdul mustafa asked. I believe it's on this forum because someone in the forum feels strongly about it and views us as sisters and brothers with whom to share ideas on controversial issues in the safety of our love and respect for one another... Love, Latifah From tariqas-approval Sat Nov 4 09:39:00 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23706; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 20:39:37 -0500 Received: from lafn.org by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23657; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 20:39:33 -0500 Received: by lafn.org id AA17477 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for tariqas@world.std.com); Sat, 4 Nov 1995 17:39:00 -0800 Date: Sat, 4 Nov 1995 17:39:00 -0800 Message-Id: <199511050139.AA17477@lafn.org> From: an525@lafn.org (Ivan Ickovits) To: tariqas@world.std.com, Winged-Heart@seas.upenn.edu, au280@lafn.org, 74637.1446@compuserve.com, dbee@snowcrest.net Subject: [daseidenberg@JTSA.EDU: Vigil, mourning, fast] Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: daseidenberg@JTSA.EDU (unknown) To: pnai-or-rabbi@shamash.nysernet.org (The Pnai Or/Aleph/Renewal Rabbinic List) Subject: Vigil, mourning, fast Date: Sat, 04 Nov To everyone in the New York area: There will be a vigil at the Israeli Consulate tonight at 8PM Saturday night to mourn for Yitzhak Rabin. The consulate is at 800 2nd Ave near 42nd St. To all: Most of us cannot be in Jerusalem to give support and pay our respects. Perhaps we should consider fasting tomorrow, from sunrise to sunset, as we do for Tzom G'dalyah (to mourn the assasination of G'dalyah, governor of Israel under Babylonia), and praying for peace for Israel and the uprooting of such evil. Shalom `al yisra'el, David Seidenberg -- q k From tariqas-approval Sat Nov 4 22:04:33 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23347; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 22:03:35 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23334; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 22:03:33 -0500 Date: Sat, 4 Nov 1995 22:03:33 +0001 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Israeli Prime Minister Rabin Assasinated To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum, Shalom aleichem, may peace be with us all. Israeli Prime Minister Rabin was assasinated today by a Jewish man active in the settlers movement in the West Bank. Prime minister Rabin had minutes earlier addressed a huge peace rally, saying the majority of Israelis were willing to take a risk for peace. May we all have the courage to do what little we can for a better world. For more info, see http://www.yahoo.com/headlines/special/rabin/rabin-3.html Yours, Habib Rose From tariqas-approval Sat Nov 4 11:48:28 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11071; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 22:48:46 -0500 Received: from s2.sonnet.com (moa1.moa.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11048; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 22:48:44 -0500 Received: from 204.118.242.49 (ppp29-mod.sonnet.com) by s2.sonnet.com with SMTP id AA06522 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 4 Nov 1995 19:48:28 -0800 Date: Sat, 4 Nov 1995 19:48:28 -0800 Message-Id: <199511050348.AA06522@s2.sonnet.com> From: izzygirl@moa.com Subject: Re: GAY GENE 'DISCOVERY' IS CHALLENGED To: tariqas@world.std.com X-Mailer: AIR Mail 3.X (SPRY, Inc.) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Salaam, Latifah, In doing as you say, sharing in the safety of our love and repect for one another, how does one address, or does one, ideas which seem not to come from a place of love or respect? From tariqas-approval Sat Nov 4 17:51:45 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12199; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 22:51:47 -0500 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12179; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 22:51:45 -0500 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA28837 for tariqas@world.std.com; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 22:51:45 -0500 Date: Sat, 4 Nov 1995 22:51:45 -0500 From: ASHA101@aol.com Message-Id: <951104225145_98187787@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Was it watching Hiesenberg that made him uncertain? Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Dear Raqib, Jinivasam etc. <> Well, my own limited experience makes me wonder about this state of watchfulness and the differance between the sufi idea and, say, the Bhudist idea. I think that there are sufi terms, shahid and shaud, but I don't really know about the depth of these terms or the metaphysics surrounding them. <<>>> Well in awakening I think that there may be not an ultimate observational post anyway because the act of removing onself TO a deeper intimacy is creative and therefore in that sense it is cyclic and ongoing rather than progressive - there is no end to creation until you stop. So the idea is not to get to a place from which one is not imersed in influencing one's suroundings but that by removing oneself from that with which one identifies one's self, one creates via recognition of that which is greater than one had previoiusly thought possible, in fact it may have been impossilbe and isn't this the reason for uncertainty, because something is created? So god not only created the universe inorder to recognize him/herself but in order to recognize and give birth to him/herself. And the idea that one only removes debris or negativity is too limited, remove the whole thing, the good things too, remove any impression of who you think you are, that is what it takes to get to a new stage of observation. And as far as the idea of trust that Jinavasam brings up <<>> When you realize that you have to give up the whole idea you have of yourself or whatever it is you are considering, well to me it quite feels like jumping off a cliff, which takes a lot of trust (trust that you won't crash because there there really is a god who cares, or even more to the point that you really are more that what you think you are) Or to put it in a more positive light it is saying yes to some underlying issue in life to which you would prefer to say no to because you can't believe that you are : good enough, smart enough, lucky enough, tough enough, ... in other words you don't know who you are and when you find out you will be quite astonished unless you keep yourself from finding out and only try acting from who you think you are and that of course is never very astonishing, like raising my own arm is no big deal, unless of course you had been hurt in the war and hadn't been able to do it for the last 20 years then in a big gutsy emotional move TADA you do it - you know , you saw the movie! Well if you have that experience a big smile breaks accross your face and you say in wonderment "WOW, Mr. Witgenstien that really was surprizing!" And, yes, I would agree with Jinavamsa that this is a religious experience, and it makes sense to me the Witgenstien would say that indeed the question is not why you wouldn't think it is surprizing but why you would think it is. And you would think it is (surprizing) when you become aware that you have been part of the action all along and by being able to remove yourself to a place of greater intimacy and not only being aware of the creative moment but by actually being able to realize it consciously. Asha From tariqas-approval Sat Nov 4 23:14:52 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20895; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 23:13:54 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20877; Sat, 4 Nov 1995 23:13:52 -0500 Date: Sat, 4 Nov 1995 23:13:52 +0001 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: GAY GENE 'DISCOVERY' IS CHALLENGED To: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <9511040332.AA18358@cwis.unomaha.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. In regards to the following extract from your post: >"Gay Gene 'Discovery' Is Challenged", and was written by >conservative author Cal Thomas. please read it as it is an interesting >piece and exposes the relationhship that exists between the media and >the homosexual advocacy groups here in the u.s. While it may be true that homosexual advocacy groups have an undue influence over some sections of the media, I think there are a lot of other groups that have at least the same "undue influence." These include conservative gay-bashers who ensure that front page headlines are made every time a gay person molests a child, but are much less likely to report the fact that the vast majority of sexual abuse of children is heterosexual committed by "normal" men. Any topic is open for discussion in tariqas, if you feel it is right for you to share. However, be forewarned that opening up our conversation to discussions of media, politics, and sexuality may have some interesting results! Yours, habib rose From tariqas-approval Sun Nov 5 15:06:35 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02694; Mon, 6 Nov 1995 02:28:57 -0500 Received: from netmail2.microsoft.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02686; Mon, 6 Nov 1995 02:28:56 -0500 Received: by netmail2.microsoft.com (5.65/25-eef) id AA01747; Sun, 5 Nov 95 23:30:16 -0800 Message-Id: <9511060730.AA01747@netmail2.microsoft.com> Received: by netmail2 using fxenixd 1.0 Sun, 05 Nov 95 23:30:16 PST X-Msmail-Message-Id: AF9EFF71 X-Msmail-Conversation-Id: AF9EFF71 From: Richard Rozsa To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Sun, 5 Nov 95 23:06:35 PST Subject: Dear Tasnim... X-Msxmtid: red-42-msg951106070934MTP[01.51.01]000000a6-50936 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Dear Tasnim, May this find you well. Someone sent me instructions on signing up for alias Friday and having done so, here's a message from you! It's been a very long time but it warms the heart to see your name. If you don't remember me by name, we met at the time when I was living in Reshad Feild's tekke. I was the one doing the recording. Much love, Richard Rozsa From tariqas-approval Mon Nov 6 06:37:03 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29664; Mon, 6 Nov 1995 11:38:20 -0500 Received: from virginia.edu (uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29540; Mon, 6 Nov 1995 11:38:17 -0500 Received: from poe.acc.virginia.edu by uvaarpa.virginia.edu id aa21351; 6 Nov 95 11:38 EST Received: from [128.143.3.211] (ara-mac-211.itc.Virginia.EDU [128.143.3.211]) by poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (8.7.1/8.6.6) with SMTP id LAA135033 for ; Mon, 6 Nov 1995 11:38:09 -0500 Message-Id: <199511061638.LAA135033@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU> X-Sender: nd4n@poe.acc.virginia.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 11:37:03 -0500 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: "A.N. Durkee" Subject: Re: horrible situations Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: dear mr. tanzen of tahoe i have never sung in any choir but i do recite Qur'an daily. wa salaam A. N. Durkee Green Mountain From tariqas-approval Mon Nov 6 01:25:55 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20692; Mon, 6 Nov 1995 12:24:04 -0500 Received: from tymix.tymnet.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20602; Mon, 6 Nov 1995 12:24:01 -0500 Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA18921; Mon, 6 Nov 95 09:23:59 PST Received: from antares by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 6 Nov 95 9:23:58 PST Received: from kirin.Tymnet.COM by antares.Tymnet.COM (8.6.5/UCB) id JAA06451; Mon, 6 Nov 1995 09:23:58 -0800 Received: by kirin.Tymnet.COM (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA02088; Mon, 6 Nov 1995 09:25:55 -0800 Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 09:25:55 -0800 From: mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM (Michael J. Moore) Message-Id: <9511061725.AA02088@kirin.Tymnet.COM> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: al-choir akbar X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: > From tariqas-approval@world.std.com Mon Nov 6 08:41:24 1995 > X-Sender: nd4n@poe.acc.virginia.edu > Mime-Version: 1.0 > dear mr. tanzen of tahoe > > i have never sung in any choir but i do recite Qur'an daily. > A. N. Durkee > Green Mountain I am told that Qur'an is music to Allah's ears; perhaps you are singing is his choir. -Michael- From tariqas-approval Mon Nov 6 07:39:15 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15179; Mon, 6 Nov 1995 12:40:30 -0500 Received: from virginia.edu (uvaarpa.Virginia.EDU) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15131; Mon, 6 Nov 1995 12:40:27 -0500 Received: from poe.acc.virginia.edu by uvaarpa.virginia.edu id aa22770; 6 Nov 95 12:40 EST Received: from [128.143.3.201] (lanrover1-gilmer-a1.acc.Virginia.EDU [128.143.3.201]) by poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (8.7.1/8.6.6) with SMTP id MAA89447 for ; Mon, 6 Nov 1995 12:40:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199511061740.MAA89447@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU> X-Sender: nd4n@poe.acc.virginia.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 12:39:15 -0500 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: "A.N. Durkee" Subject: Re: al-choir akbar Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: >> From tariqas-approval@world.std.com Mon Nov 6 08:41:24 1995 >> X-Sender: nd4n@poe.acc.virginia.edu >> Mime-Version: 1.0 > >> dear mr. tanzen of tahoe >> >> i have never sung in any choir but i do recite Qur'an daily. > >> A. N. Durkee >> Green Mountain > >I am told that Qur'an is music to Allah's ears; perhaps you >are singing is his choir. >-Michael- 'insha'-llah A. N. Durkee Green Mountain From tariqas-approval Mon Nov 6 16:29:37 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29318; Mon, 6 Nov 1995 16:28:40 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29261; Mon, 6 Nov 1995 16:28:37 -0500 Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 16:28:37 +0001 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: tariqas ANNOUNCEMENT To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. I am going out of town for a week, so there may be some delays in approving things for the tariqas list. Insh'Allah, most of the functions (such as subscribing, unsubscribing etc.) will take care of themselves. In case you need it, the following is the welcome message from tariqas which contains some instructions. Yours, habib rose host of tariqas Assalamu alaykum (may peace be with you). Welcome to 'tariqas'! 'tariqas' is a discussion group focusing on spiritual paths/ways/orders. The word "tariqas" is Arabic, and literally means "paths" or "ways." It is applied to the various Sufi Orders (e.g. the Mevlevi tariqa; the Naqshbandi tariqa). Members of all Sufi Orders, whether Muslims or non-Muslims, are welcome to participate in our group. But, this group is not exclusive to Muslims, or even to those following a specifically Sufi path. If you are a Muslim, and are interested in also participating in a group exclusively for Muslims involved with the Sufi path, there is another list you may be interested in subscribing to: sufi@think.net For subscription information on that list, send a message with the text HELP to listserv@think.net 'tariqas' is intended for any person involved in any spiritual path, who is open to sharing in an open and honest way with others - who may be involved in the same path, or one which may appear, on the surface at least, to be very different. In general, most of the participants in 'tariqas' are involved in "paths of the heart" - of love. To join 'tariqas', send a message to majordomo@world.std.com The subject line of the message is not important. The content of the message should be: subscribe tariqas Majordomo is a program which helps automate the process of running this list. Among the other commands that you can send to majordomo@world.std.com are: unsubscribe tariqas (if you want to drop out of the list - either termporarily or permanently) who tariqas (to get a list of the email addresses of members) info tariqas (to get this message) Paricipating in the group is easy - all you have to do is to send a message to tariqas@world.std.com and your message will automatically be forwarded to all members of the group. All members of the group are encouraged to feel comfortable to contribute to the discussion. Since most of us are involved in "paths of the heart" - and since we all have a heart - we all have something to say. Please try to avoid sending messages to individual group members with a "cc" (carbon copy) to the 'tariqas' group: this results in unnecesary duplication of messages. All members of the group automatically get any message sent to 'tariqas'. An archive has been set up for the 'tariqas' group. ALL LETTERS WRITTEN TO THIS GROUP WILL BE STORED IN THE ARCHIVE. If you do not want your letters stored in the archive, do not send them to the tariqas@world.std.com address (you may of course send individual letters to any member of our group - or make up your own informal list of addresses). The archive is ftp.lysator.liu.se and the archived files are in the subdirectory /pub/relgion/tariqas. If you don't know how to do an ftp (unfortunately it is kindof complex), one way to start is to enter the command "help ftp" or "man ftp" from your system prompt. Yours, Habib Rose (Habibullah) habib@world.std.com From Majordomo-Owner@world.std.com Mon Nov 6 16:38:38 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09573; Mon, 6 Nov 1995 16:38:38 -0500 Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 16:38:38 -0500 Message-Id: <199511062138.AA09573@world.std.com> To: tariqas-approval From: Majordomo@world.std.com Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE tariqas Reply-To: Majordomo@world.std.com Status: O X-Status: -- brodybro@microserve.net has unsubscribed from tariqas. No action is required on your part.