From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 6 07:51:01 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12742; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 23:25:51 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA01704; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 17:52:20 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA01164; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 17:41:50 -0500 (EST) From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA28335 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 02:51:01 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 02:51:01 -0500 Message-Id: <960406025057_370098913@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Allah Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: hello Jabriel, They are so delightful and touching, your asides to yourself in your poetry. They are very centered and powerful and lovely. thank you, Jinavamsa in peace From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 6 23:59:38 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18773; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 23:50:45 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA08129; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 19:21:04 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA06924; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 19:00:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16817; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:59:38 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:59:38 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: SHAIKH SERIF AL-RIFAI IN NYC - MAY (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: HU, Shaikh Serif of the Rifai-Marufi Order of Istambul will be in NYC in the first part of May and will conduct one or two Zikrs to which all are welcome. Also if anyone has a space which they can offer for the Zikrs, or can suggest a space that would be most appreciated. Now residing in North Carolina Shiekh Serif is the head of the Rifai-Marufi Order of America, and can be reached at: M. SERIF CATALKAYA RIFAI MARUFI ORDER OF AMERICA P.O. Box 296 CARRBORO, NC 27510 919-933-0772 For more information on the Zikrs in NYC call 212-265-4345 or Email at this address. HU From Mailer-Daemon Sun Apr 7 04:55:46 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19975; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 23:55:55 -0500 Received: from localhost by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAB20458; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 23:55:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 23:55:46 -0500 (EST) From: Mailer-Daemon@facteur.std.com (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Subject: Returned mail: User unknown Message-Id: <199604070455.XAB20458@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status; boundary="XAB20458.828852946/europe.std.com" Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure) Status: RO X-Status: This is a MIME-encapsulated message --XAB20458.828852946/europe.std.com The original message was received at Sat, 6 Apr 1996 19:21:04 -0500 (EST) from daemon@localhost ----- The following addresses have delivery notifications ----- Christopher Lewis (unrecoverable error) (expanded from: :include:/usr/local/lib/majordomo/Lists/tariqas) comuinca@uni.net (unrecoverable error) (expanded from: :include:/usr/local/lib/majordomo/Lists/tariqas) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to gibson.acpub.duke.edu.: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 ... User unknown 550 Christopher Lewis ... User unknown khadim@forthd.dcl.com,root!fifthd@forthd.dcl.com,root!fifthd.uucp@forthd.dcl.com... Deferred: Connection timed out during initial connection with espace.dcl.com. norton@astro.spa.umn.edu... Deferred: Connection timed out during initial connection with ast1.spa.umn.edu. 451 an525@lafn.org... timeout waiting for input during client greeting 451 an525@lafn.org... reply: read error from lafn.org. ennea@net-gate.com... Deferred: Connection timed out during initial connection with ns1.net-gate.com. ... while talking to relay.uni.net.: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 Unknown User. 550 comuinca@uni.net... User unknown --XAB20458.828852946/europe.std.com Content-Type: message/delivery-status Reporting-MTA: dns; europe.std.com Arrival-Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 19:21:04 -0500 (EST) Final-Recipient: rfc822; :include:/usr/local/lib/majordomo/Lists/tariqas@europe.std.com X-Actual-Recipient: rfc822; cdl001@acpub.duke.edu Action: failed Status: 5.2.0 Remote-MTA: dns; gibson.acpub.duke.edu Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 ... User unknown Last-Attempt-Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 23:31:56 -0500 (EST) Final-Recipient: rfc822; :include:/usr/local/lib/majordomo/Lists/tariqas@europe.std.com X-Actual-Recipient: rfc822; comuinca@uni.net Action: failed Status: 5.2.0 Remote-MTA: dns; relay.uni.net Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 Unknown User. Last-Attempt-Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 23:55:11 -0500 (EST) --XAB20458.828852946/europe.std.com Content-Type: text/rfc822-headers Return-Path: Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA08129; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 19:21:04 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA06924; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 19:00:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16817; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:59:38 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:59:38 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: SHAIKH SERIF AL-RIFAI IN NYC - MAY (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas --XAB20458.828852946/europe.std.com-- From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 6 22:09:35 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26359; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 00:12:32 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA26079; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 17:19:32 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA23251; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 17:10:19 -0500 (EST) From: informe@best.com Received: from blob.best.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07445; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 17:09:39 -0500 Received: from [204.156.129.34] (informe.vip.best.com [204.156.129.34]) by blob.best.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id OAA02876 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 14:09:35 -0800 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 14:09:35 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: wudu Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: >I still hold to the argument that some rituals and practices are created >for objective purposes >that are not universally valid for all times and places. It seems that >this major thought of >my original post was overlooked and instead smaller statements were >responded to. I would appreciate any feedback on this idea, especially >regarding Islam. > >Sincerely, >Mark Fenkner As-salaamu alaikum, How would one go about determining this? To make this assessment, would you not need to have assimilated the rituals and practices and their effects? Salaams, Hamza From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 6 23:43:38 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08308; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 00:35:23 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA06084; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:49:52 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA05767; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:45:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11065; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:43:38 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:43:38 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: I'm going to start automatically adding email addresses To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. I continually receive a number of messages sent from addresses not subscribed to the tariqas list. It takes me extra time to forward these messages to the list. Please do not respond to this message saying "I didn't mean to do that" etc. I have adopted a new policy. Anyone who sends a message to the tariqas list from an account other than one already subscribed will have their new address added to the tariqas list. If you find yourself receiving two copies of messages, this may be the reason. If you have any problems with this new policy, or need to have an address removed from the list, please email me directly at habib@world.std.com Thank you. I'm overwhelmed with activities these days and every little bit less that I have to do helps. Yours, Habib Rose From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 6 20:52:42 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13759; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 00:59:17 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA11204; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 16:08:58 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA09923; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 15:53:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id MAA23062 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 12:52:43 -0800 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id MAA29933 for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 12:52:42 -0800 Message-Id: <199604062052.MAA29933@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Re: True Teachers To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 12:52:42 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <960403142249_263174162@mail04> from "Jinavamsa@aol.com" at Apr 3, 96 02:22:50 pm From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: 49960406 Assalam alaykum, my kin. |From: Jinavamsa@aol.com |Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 14:22:50 -0500 |Who was the teacher of Mohammed? There are various accounts. Usually it is said the angel Gabriel (if memory serves) bequeathed Muhammad with the vision of the glorious realm and, initially, bade him 'Recite!' or 'Read!'. As he was illiterate, this brought some confusion! :> The angel thereafter gifted him with the substance of the recitation, _Al Qur'an_. Corrections welcome. |Is the Buddha considered not to be a true teacher because he had no teacher |and was a self-appointed teacher? Again, various accounts. The Buddha is often depicted as having studied with two contemporaries and mastering their disciplines (yogacharya?). Peace be upon you, my kin. Haramullah tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 6 23:28:43 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17803; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 01:15:45 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA06104; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:49:59 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA04359; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:30:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07040; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:28:43 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:28:43 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: Idries Shah and Inayat Khan (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 11:35:18 -0500 From:tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [mmoore@kirin.Tymnet.COM (Mike Moore)] >From habib@world.std.com Wed Mar 27 11:35:14 1996 Return-Path: Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA20641; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 11:35:10 -0500 Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA28131; Wed, 27 Mar 96 08:34:58 PST Received: from kirin by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 27 Mar 96 8:34:57 PST Received: by kirin.Tymnet.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA07639; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:35:05 -0800 Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:35:05 -0800 From: mmoore@kirin.Tymnet.COM (Mike Moore) Message-Id: <199603271635.IAA07639@kirin.Tymnet.COM> To: tariqas@europe.std.com Subject: Re: Hazrat Inayat Khan and Idries Shah (Was Re:Idries Shah) X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII > Although the reference is hearsay, Pir Vilayat Inayat Khan once said > to me (and I heard it) that Idries Shah's father and Hazrat Inayat > Khan lived in the same neighborhood in Paris in the 1920's, and that > they were great friends. > > Regards to all, > > Abraham Yes, they were great and they were friends, but I wonder what was meant by the word 'friends' in this case. ;-) -Michael- From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 6 20:32:26 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22582; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 01:33:35 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA08721; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 15:37:36 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA08646; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 15:35:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05261; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 15:33:52 -0500 Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id MAA22200 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 12:32:28 -0800 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id MAA29111 for tariqas@world.std.com; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 12:32:27 -0800 Message-Id: <199604062032.MAA29111@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Wudu and Traditional Practices in Sufism To: tariqas@world.std.com (Tariqas Elist) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 12:32:26 -0800 (PST) From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: 49960406 Assalam alaykum, my kin. |From: Lilyan Ila |Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 08:30:43 -0800 (PST) |>...I feel in Sufism ritual without any objective purpose is useless and |>is actually going against the ideal, leading us more into conditioning. |Following the same reasoning, one would have to stand on one's head while |defecating in order to justify the previous steps of ablution. Bodily orientation with respect to defecation has a distinct and obvious objective purpose, even in rite -- keeping the feces off us. I think there are other possible arguments, however. When can we be sure that the old practices 'have no objective purpose'? Perhaps it is subtle, hidden, or lost to the ages and we have a chance to recover. |Clearly, there is more to wudu than what you have implied. There is at least the 'spiritual cleansing' and perhaps 'psychological purification' common to many religious and mystical theoretics surrounding ablution, asperging, or even banishing. |How can we learn of the meaning unless we let go of our assumptions and |sit at the feet of one who really knows? * do it and imagine possibilities * pretend there is no Answer and make one up * ask everyone and compile the possibilities * ask a batch of sheikhs and refer to various masters in text |Perhaps the conditioning we must overcome is our unwillingness to do this. For some submission is very important. For others the timing or context is not right. Peace be upon you, my kin. Haramullah tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 7 06:11:14 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26248; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 01:49:56 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id BAA28298; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 01:23:41 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id BAA28294; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 01:23:39 -0500 (EST) From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA08237 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 01:11:14 -0500 Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 01:11:14 -0500 Message-Id: <960407011114_507542940@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: True Teachers Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: hello Haramullah and all, In a message dated 96-04-07 00:39:58 EST, you write: >|Is the Buddha considered not to be a true teacher because he had no teacher >|and was a self-appointed teacher? > >Again, various accounts. The Buddha is often depicted as having studied >with two contemporaries and mastering their disciplines (yogacharya?). Yes, he had two teachers, Aa.laara Kaalaama and then Uddaka Raamaputta (or Raamaputra in Skt). The problem is that both acknowledged him as fully educated in their disciplines, but he himself felt there were much more important stuff left to learn. He then went beyond their teachings (that's a detail we don't have to go into here unless you insist) and what he decided was worth teaching (sometimes called the four noble truths including the fourth, itself called the eight-fold path) was *not* something he had learned from these two teachers. So in that relevant way, he did not have teachers. (If you have a teacher who teaches you the alphabet and you then go off and start reading and composing poetry on your own, that goes way beyond what your teachers taught you. Just a metaphor.) My question was simply about the idea that a teacher cannot be a teacher if the lineage of that teacher does not satisfy a particular scrutiny. And it applied in a way not only to the Buddha but also to Mohammed himself, in a way that it does not apply to those who heard from ..... who heard from Mohammed. I appreciate your comments and thank you. with peace unto you and all creatures of Allah and all of creation, Jinavamsa > >Peace be upon you, my kin. > >Haramullah >tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 6 20:39:11 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27878; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 01:55:45 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA10889; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 16:07:18 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA09154; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 15:40:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id MAA22503 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 12:39:13 -0800 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id MAA29413 for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 12:39:12 -0800 From: nagasiva Message-Id: <199604062039.MAA29413@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 12:39:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: from "Zafer BARUTCUOGLU" at Apr 1, 96 11:21:25 pm Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: 49960406 Assalam alaykum, my kin. |From: Zafer BARUTCUOGLU |Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 23:21:25 +0300 (EET DST) |I had never heard the sixth accounted as a pillar.. Very subject to abuse. Of course. Found that in _Understanding Islam_, by Fritjof Schuon and a couple other sources. As a 6th Pillar 'jihad' is somewhat controversial and prone to misunderstanding (justification for violence, etc.). |> |Does sound like nonsense, |> Not at all. Check out all the possibilities. It all depends on what you |> choose to mean by the terms in question. I consider myself muslim |>(submitting of God) and a sufi (in the sense that I study the subject and |>wear wool :>). There are 'universalist sufis' who will accept Muslim or |>Buddhist or Satanist. |I fully agree on the Buddhist, but Satanist??? That is far out to be a |way to love God, I guess. I mean, I understand Shah's views that the idol |worshipper sees God in the idol, but Satanism is nothing to compare even |with such a case. See HIKhan and his comments about Sufism. Religion is not an absolute barrier to what I call 'sufism'. |> |...the basis of Islam is that denying ONE word of the Koran is the end of |> |religion, |> what brings you to these conclusions? Are they traditional?.... |...from the Koran itself. There are many teachings resident therein (some say contradictory), as with most important mystical texts. |...will shortly give specific ctatements. Not necessary on my account, since I don't usually contend that in order to be a sufi one must be a Muslim. Like HIKhan I don't think that sufis adhere to any one book or path. |And I have little access to anything else about Shah currently, so I am |restlessly waiting for your quotes of him. Ok, still looking (next to _The Sufis_). Perhaps I'll get to my hard drive and save myself the keying in too. :> Peace be with you, my kin. Haramullah tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 6 22:56:53 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01350; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 03:12:17 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA03398; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:19:38 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA02024; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 17:55:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from zafer@localhost) by mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr (8.6.12/8.6.9) id BAA24636; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 01:56:54 +0300 Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 01:56:53 +0300 (EET DST) From: Zafer BARUTCUOGLU To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: ***Questions on Dancing Dervishes**** In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 6 Apr 1996, Elmolhoda Morteza wrote: > > > Greeting of Love and Peace > Assalaamu Alaikum Alaikum salaam. > > Could anyone kindly provide me with some information in answer to the following > questions (presented to me by one of the students of the University of Helsinki): > > 1. How and why dancing entered the Sufism? Rumi is the founder of the whirling dervishes, and there is no other older order who used this movement as far as I am concerned. Perhaps other forms of dancing existed, but I don't know. One day, as Rumi passed by a jewelry store, he heard the rhythmic sounds of the jewelry workers' hammers, and started to whirl there and then. When the owner of the jewelry store saw this, he was enchanted; he told his worker boys not to stop, and he began to whirl too. They whirled and whirled together, and this man replaced Shams of Tabriz -recently killed- in Rumi's life for some time. > 2. Who were the first Sufis who practised dancing? > 3. Why did the Rumi chose dancing? > 4. Is there any symbolic meaning for certain movements in the > dancing of whirling dervishes? One hand points up and one points down. This implies receiving from Allah and giving to people. > > I will appreciate if some bibliography related to the above-mentioned questions > is also introduced. Do refer to a source; I write vague knowledge from my memory, in case it is of use to you. > > With thanks Good Luck (Please post answers to the list too.) > Morteza > morteza.elmolhoda@helsinki.fi > > > //\ 0-0 +---oOO (_) OOo---------------------------------------------------------+ | - Zafer Barutcuoglu | | Undergradute at Bogazici University Mathematics Department | | E-mail: zafer@mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr | | URL : HTTP://mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr/~zafer | | Voice : +90 (212) 270 5345 | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ |"In questions of science the authority of a thousand is not worth the | | humble reasoning of a single individual." | | -Galileo Galilei | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 7 00:36:33 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03660; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 03:28:20 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA10064; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 19:54:19 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA09308; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 19:38:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27384; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 19:36:34 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 19:36:33 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Please stop posting cc's to tariqas@facteur.std.com To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. A number of list members have been sending posts to tariqas@world.std.com as well as tariqas@facteur.std.com. Please be careful not to do this -- it results in double messages to everyone on the list. Either address is fine, but since tariqas@world.std.com is the "official" list, you may want to use it if you are composing a message for the first time. if you are responding to a message, just use whatever address your mailer fills in (and check to make sure you will not send it to both addresses) Thanks! habib From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 6 19:59:31 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03827; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 03:29:52 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA07123; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 15:08:13 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA06641; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 15:00:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id LAA20536 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 11:59:33 -0800 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id LAA26911 for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 11:59:32 -0800 Message-Id: <199604061959.LAA26911@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Sufism, sufism and Islam (Was Idries Shah) To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 11:59:31 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: from "Dien Alfred Rice" at Mar 31, 96 08:47:21 am From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A 49960406 Assalam alaykum, my kin. |From: Dien Alfred Rice |Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 08:47:21 +1000 (EST) |...if you look at the classical Sufis (who Shah himself praises, such as |Jalaluddin Rumi, Ibn Arabi, and al-Ghazali), you will see that Sufism |and Islam are connected (I follow the viewpoint that Sufism is the "inner |dimension" of Islam). I have heard that Rumi was Hindu. Is this accurate? I like this 'connected' assertion and appreciate your 'inner dimension' preference. ;> quote of Rumi: | The Way involves avoiding certain foods and consuming certain | remedies on the basis of this theory. Then the Truth is | to find everlasting health and to have no more need for | theory and practice. How can we discern when we've found this? Note that Hermetic Orders latch on to this notion of 'everlasting health' in regards the 'Universal Medicine' (cf OTO, of which I am a member, which has as its thematic and/or mystical claims, the contention that this ancient alchemical secret is maintained by its upper levels; it would not surprise me if this was also a Sufic claim). Perhaps 'sufis' are those who have trespassed beyond the need for regimented theory (HIKhan: 'if it restricts belief it ceases to be sufi') or practice (HIKhan and IShah both indicate that the practice may come from Allah or be some mystical tool which does not necessarily reside in the conventional 5 Pillars Islam). Is this why some Muslim mystics identify themselves as 'Ahl al Haqq' (followers of the Real -- from Nicholson)? | When man dies to the life of this world, the Law and the | Way will be cut off from him, and only the Truth will | remain.... The Law is knowledge, the Way is works and | the Truth is attainment to God. Compare this with recent quotes about renunciation by Emerson. Very interesting commonalities among some mystics of various cultures, no? |(From the Mathnawi, Book V, introduction, translated by |W. C. Chittick in "The Sufi Path of Love," p. 11.) Thank you. Peace be upon you, my kin. Haramullah tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 6 20:22:30 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07007; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 03:47:46 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA08989; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 15:39:28 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA08091; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 15:23:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id MAA21802 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 12:22:31 -0800 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id MAA28661 for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 12:22:30 -0800 Message-Id: <199604062022.MAA28661@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 12:22:30 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199603312229.OAA05139@jobe.shell.portal.com> from "Haramullah" at Mar 31, 96 02:29:50 pm From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: 49960406 Assalam alaykum, my kin. |From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah) |Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 14:29:50 -0800 (PST) Brother Zafer BARUTCUOGLU: [relating a friend's experience] |>...Idries Shah's opinions that Islam was right in SOME ways, and |>that Koran had SOME truth in it, and that Mohammed was JUST a high |>ranking, though very high, Sufi, |I'm sure it is possible to find writings by Shah which indicate |a greater degree of certainty and absoluteness than what you have |said here. It seems to me his words are usually more meaningful |than can be described for him. At times he implies the collective |'islam' of submitting to Allah (religion or no) while at others he |speaks of the religion of Islam and its limitations. I can really |see the value to this diverse approach and wonder if your commentary |isn't too extreme. I'll have a look in my library again tonight or |this week and see if I can find some conservative statements by him. I looked. Here's a bit of what I found (*without* consulting _The Sufis_!; this from _The Way of the Sufi_), though it does not directly support my claim and I may have to resort to that other book anyway): This brings us to another important Sufi projection, one which causes bafflement -- and even rage -- in certain types of person, but which should nevertheless be faced. It is the assertion that when Sufic activity becomes concentrated at one point or in one community in a very active and 'real' (not imitation) form, it does so only for a limited time and for distinct purposes. It is the type of person who says 'I want it here and now or not at all' who dislikes this statement. Put in another way, the idea is that no society is ever complete, neither are its needs exactly the same as those of older societies. No Sufi sets up an institution intended to endure. The outer form in which he imparts his ideas is a transient vehicle, designed for local operation. That which is perpetual, he says, is in another range. p. 33 ----- Perhaps this 'other range' is that of Allah. This could be used to support the notion that Sufism is not encompassed by Islam, of course. I'll next look into _The Sufis_ for more. I'd merely cite previous elist exchange and restate, but right now my hard drive with that information is unavailable to me (new computer, still getting oriented). Peace be with you, my kin. Haramullah tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 5 01:11:07 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07783; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 03:51:59 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA00331; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 20:14:35 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA00315; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 20:14:25 -0500 (EST) From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA12849 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 20:11:07 -0500 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 20:11:07 -0500 Message-Id: <960404201106_462652414@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: 7 senses [was Re: Shah, Islam and Sufis Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: hello Zafer and all, could you refer me/us to some sources of this idea of seven senses, of 7 and 8 doors? thank you. in peace, Jinavamsa In a message dated 96-04-04 09:04:00 EST, you write: >Definitely. And this is especially true in Sufism. Heaven, symbolically, >is said to have eight doors, whereas Hell has seven. The seven doors are >the seven senses. The five ordinary, and the two hidden senses. With all >of the seven senses, you can 'see' everything, but still may be on the >wrong path, to Hell. And as they say, it is easier to diverge from the >true path when you see too many things. The eighth door is the door of >Self. You are not where you want to be unless you are through this last >door, and if anywhere on the path, you are satisfied with where you are, >and stop, you will have lost. (Of course, this 'satisfaction' is a very >ironical word to use.) And most people who enter the path, start off to >find A good place, that is, to be above and superior to others in some >way. This is relatively easy to achieve, especially through contact with >evil forces, and is exactly why the guidance of a rightful teacher and/or >the adherence to a SAFE religion is necessary. > >Regards. > > //\ > 0-0 >+---oOO (_) OOo---------------------------------------------------------+ >| - Zafer Barutcuoglu From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 6 23:34:35 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07822; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 03:52:36 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA06210; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:50:41 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA04649; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:35:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08509; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:34:35 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:34:35 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Sufism and Homosexuality (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:06:54 -0500 From:tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [ccscon35@ccs.carleton.ca (Rizwan Mawani)] >From habib@world.std.com Wed Mar 27 13:06:51 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA08579; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:06:51 -0500 Received: from alfred.ccs.carleton.ca by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04146; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:03:16 -0500 Received: from superior (superior.ccs.carleton.ca) by alfred.ccs.carleton.ca (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA02084; Wed, 27 Mar 96 13:02:27 EST From: ccscon35@ccs.carleton.ca (Rizwan Mawani) Received: by superior (4.1/Sun-Client) id AA07685; Wed, 27 Mar 96 13:02:28 EST Message-Id: <9603271802.AA07685@superior> Subject: Sufism and Homosexuality To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Wed, 27 Mar 96 13:02:28 EST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Hello all tariqa-netters: The purpose of my raising this issue is two-fold. First and foremost I have a valid interest in it, secondly I'm doing a paper on it. What I'm looking at in this assignment (its for a Religion and Ethics course) is trying to decode through the symbol of a tradition (the symbol can be ritual, doctrine, anything really) the cosmology of the tradition and then apply it to the ethical issue. So for example, if I was to take the doctrine-symbol of "mankind"in Sufism, I would then go about looking at concepts such as "nafs", etc, to try to arrive at some sort of world-view and value-system that Sufis inhabit. I would then apply this cosmology and axiology to the concept of homosexuality. The Qur'anic parable of Lut is indicative, but I don't know if its explicit enough. The other thing I was concerned with was that whether notions of essence over form, would put the Sodom and Gomorrah storie on the backburner and precede it. Much help, critique, would be appreciated. I hope I haven't offended anyone. Hopefully this will begin an interesting thread, and also raise the issues of human rights. Although I'm specifically looking at Sufism in my paper, I think this sort of exercise would be useful and applicative to all esoteric or gnostic traditions. As-salaam Rizwan -- Quote of the day: "When you grow up, your heart dies" Ally Sheedy in The Breakfast Club ================================================================= Rizwan Mawani email: rmawani@chat.carleton.ca Carleton University Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Anthropology/Religion III (613) 736-7521 ================================================================= From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 7 01:15:03 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09483; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 04:05:37 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA10978; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:22:21 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA10678; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:15:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08671; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:15:03 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:15:03 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: wudu (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 08:30:43 -0800 (PST) From: Lilyan Ila To: tariqas@europe.std.com Subject: wudu asalaam-u-aleikum > purpose than a spiritual purpose. As an example, I think that many forms of > ablution > demonstrate this. At the time of the Prophet, p.b.u.h, people would squat to > defecate and so cleaning the feet was included in ablution in order to prevent > disease from feces being on a person's feet. In modern times in modern > countries, > a person's feet are generally clean and cleaning the feet in ablution would > no longer serve a purpose beyond ritual. I feel in Sufism ritual without > any objective purpose is useless and is actually going against the ideal, > leading us more into conditioning. > Following the same reasoning, one would have to stand on one's head while defecating in order to justify the previous steps of ablution. Clearly, there is more to wudu than what you have implied. How can we learn of the meaning unless we let go of our assumptions and sit at the feet of one who really knows? Perhaps the conditioning we must overcome is our unwillingness to do this. Lily From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 6 23:46:07 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11272; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 04:20:12 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA08359; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 19:22:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA05961; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:48:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11631; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:46:07 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:46:07 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: Inayat's motive (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 19:20:10 -0500 From:tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [Jawad Qureshi ] >From habib@world.std.com Wed Mar 27 19:20:08 1996 Return-Path: Received: from indy30.gclab.missouri.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA09800; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 19:20:04 -0500 Received: (from c640429@localhost) by indy30.gclab.missouri.edu (8.7.4/8.7.1) id SAA18701; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 18:09:57 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 18:09:56 -0600 (CST) From: Jawad Qureshi X-Sender: c640429@indy30.gclab.missouri.edu To: tariqas@europe.std.com cc: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Inayat's Motive In-Reply-To: <199603261753.BAA16234@relay3.jaring.my> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Wed, 27 Mar 1996 maarof@pc.jaring.my wrote: > Maharaj Jim said (among othe things)" >=20 > --------------------------------------------------- > "It was Khan's position, as I understand it, that > Sufism did not exist without Islam and that Islam > did not exist without Sufism." > --------------------------------------------------- >=20 > I am not very familiar with Inayat Khan. From a few=20 > books that I read about sufism in general, I believe > Inayat Khan was a sufi, and perhaps he was given a mission > to teach Islam in the West. As a sufi, he has to "blend > with the cultural environment" and spread the message of > Islam. >=20 > I would appreciate any comment on this matter. >=20 > Best regards >=20 > Maarof >=20 Salam,=20 Well, I must admit that there if this was his goal, he was far from=20 successful; I mean, a good number of his followers don't even represent=20 in the slightest even the most liberal forms of Islam. In the limited=20 meetings that I have had with a few of them, they have told me that they=20 really don't see the need for prayer, and their concepts of Allah (SWT)=20 are ussually borrowed from different systems of belief (Hinduism,=20 Buddhism) and they don't make any attempt to hide it even: they flat out= =20 admit that they mix and match what they want. =20 Now, to say that Islam can not exist without Sufism, this poses a=20 problem: how do we define Sufism? When this is clearly defined, then we=20 can make such claims. Do we define it as man becoming one with Allah? =20 Is Sufism the path that one takes to purity? Is it the path to=20 perfection of servitude? Is it to worship Allah AS IF we see Him? Is it= =20 to follow a saint? Is it to give allegiance to a Sufi Master? Is it to=20 follow the Last of All Prophets - may Allah send his blessings and mercy=20 on him? What is the definition of Sufism, and what reality of it do we=20 follow? Many people will give a definition to satisfy the person that=20 thy are talking to, but act totally different. When something like the=20 above quote is said, the terms have to be understood. I too am not very familiar with Inayat Khan, and I don't mean to sound=20 rude or disrespectful to him even. I have read a little bit of his=20 material, but I can't say that I am well versed in his thinking. =E3 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 6 23:45:36 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12237; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 04:27:19 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA08364; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 19:22:28 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA05963; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:48:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11538; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:45:36 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 18:45:36 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: Inayat's motive (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 19:13:43 -0500 From:tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [Jawad Qureshi ] >From habib@world.std.com Wed Mar 27 19:13:41 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA09180; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 19:13:41 -0500 Received: from indy30.gclab.missouri.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23775; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 19:10:22 -0500 Received: (from c640429@localhost) by indy30.gclab.missouri.edu (8.7.4/8.7.1) id SAA18701; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 18:09:57 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 18:09:56 -0600 (CST) From: Jawad Qureshi X-Sender: c640429@indy30.gclab.missouri.edu To: tariqas@europe.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Inayat's Motive In-Reply-To: <199603261753.BAA16234@relay3.jaring.my> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Wed, 27 Mar 1996 maarof@pc.jaring.my wrote: > Maharaj Jim said (among othe things)" >=20 > --------------------------------------------------- > "It was Khan's position, as I understand it, that > Sufism did not exist without Islam and that Islam > did not exist without Sufism." > --------------------------------------------------- >=20 > I am not very familiar with Inayat Khan. From a few=20 > books that I read about sufism in general, I believe > Inayat Khan was a sufi, and perhaps he was given a mission > to teach Islam in the West. As a sufi, he has to "blend > with the cultural environment" and spread the message of > Islam. >=20 > I would appreciate any comment on this matter. >=20 > Best regards >=20 > Maarof >=20 Salam,=20 Well, I must admit that there if this was his goal, he was far from=20 successful; I mean, a good number of his followers don't even represent=20 in the slightest even the most liberal forms of Islam. In the limited=20 meetings that I have had with a few of them, they have told me that they=20 really don't see the need for prayer, and their concepts of Allah (SWT)=20 are ussually borrowed from different systems of belief (Hinduism,=20 Buddhism) and they don't make any attempt to hide it even: they flat out= =20 admit that they mix and match what they want. =20 Now, to say that Islam can not exist without Sufism, this poses a=20 problem: how do we define Sufism? When this is clearly defined, then we=20 can make such claims. Do we define it as man becoming one with Allah? =20 Is Sufism the path that one takes to purity? Is it the path to=20 perfection of servitude? Is it to worship Allah AS IF we see Him? Is it= =20 to follow a saint? Is it to give allegiance to a Sufi Master? Is it to=20 follow the Last of All Prophets - may Allah send his blessings and mercy=20 on him? What is the definition of Sufism, and what reality of it do we=20 follow? Many people will give a definition to satisfy the person that=20 thy are talking to, but act totally different. When something like the=20 above quote is said, the terms have to be understood. I too am not very familiar with Inayat Khan, and I don't mean to sound=20 rude or disrespectful to him even. I have read a little bit of his=20 material, but I can't say that I am well versed in his thinking. =E3 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 7 01:28:46 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13145; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 04:36:41 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA12596; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:54:02 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA11374; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:30:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13038; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:28:46 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:28:46 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: double posting To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. On Wed, 3 Apr 1996, arsalaan fay wrote: > I am experienceing a greaty deal of double posting. > Could the moderator please explain how to avoid this? > > > Thank You > Arsalaan > Thanks for your inquiry. As I just mentioned in another letter, the only way is for the people posting to stop sending copies to tariqas@world.std.com as well as to tariqas@facteur.std.com There's nothing that I can do, as far as I know. Yours, Habib Rose From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 7 01:32:24 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13372; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 04:38:51 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA12511; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:53:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA11697; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:35:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13994; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:32:24 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:32:24 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Forwarded message -- Shaykh in NY To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 11:36:30 -0500 (EST) From:tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [ZIAulHUQ@aol.com] >From habib@world.std.com Sat Apr 6 11:36:24 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA17968; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 11:13:04 -0500 (EST) From: ZIAulHUQ@aol.com Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07212; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 11:03:55 -0500 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA17154 for Tariqas@world.std.com; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 11:03:54 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 11:03:54 -0500 Message-Id: <960406110353_463718048@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: Tariqas@world.std.com Subject: SHAIKH SERIF IN NYC IN MAY HU, Shiekh Serif of the Rifai-Marufi Order of Istambul will be in NYC in the beginning of May and will conduct one or two Zikrs to which all are welcome. Also if anyone has a space which they can offer for the Zikrs, or can suggest a space that would be most appreciated. Now residing in North Carolina Shiekh Serif is the head of the Rifai-Marufi Order of America, and can be reached at: M. SERIF CATALKAYA RIFAI MARUFI ORDER OF AMERICA P.O. Box 296 CARRBORO, NC 27510 919-933-0772 For more information on the Zikrs in NYC call 212-265-4345 or Email at this address. HU From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 7 00:54:24 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14664; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 04:51:50 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA10903; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:21:41 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA10186; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 19:55:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03321; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 19:54:24 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 19:54:24 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. On Tue, 2 Apr 1996, Zafer BARUTCUOGLU wrote: > On Sun, 31 Mar 1996 ennea@net-gate.com wrote: > > > > > > > In reading the posts on Idries Shah and his stance on Islam, a few thoughts > > came to mind that I would like to share. In one way that I view Sufism, > > though maybe it is > > only correct in an certain sense, all actions should only by judged by thier > > purpose and thier effect. The result of the action is all that matters. In > > my mind, I > > refer to this as objective action. To me, Islam seems to be an objective > > religion. > > Muhammad, p.b.u.h, created a religion > > One must choose words carefully. He did not create it. He brought it. > Remember the shahadah, "And I confirm that Muhammed is a man and servant > of Him." > > > that also had the function of a system > > of social > > reform. > > Most certainly. > > > Some rules and practices were implemented that served more of a > > functional > > purpose than a spiritual purpose. As an example, I think that many forms of > > ablution > > demonstrate this. At the time of the Prophet, p.b.u.h, people would squat to > > defecate and so cleaning the feet was included in ablution in order to prevent > > disease from feces being on a person's feet. In modern times in modern > > countries, > > a person's feet are generally clean and cleaning the feet in ablution would > > no longer serve a purpose beyond ritual. > > Based on the ASSUMPTION that cleaning the feet is ONLY for hygene, your > argument holds. But HOW CAN YOU BE SURE? I have also heard someone deeply > learned say that the abdest(washing) serves a bioelectrical purpose > crucial for the maximum emission of brain waves. How about that? Will you > risk not washing? I won't. > > > I feel in Sufism ritual without > > any objective purpose is useless and is actually going against the ideal, > > leading us more into conditioning. > > Thus, orthodox Islam would no longer be perfect for all men, depending on > > thier time and place. The heart of Islam would be perfect, but not all the > > practices. > > Even with the ASSUMPTION that some parts of Islam are out of time, > may I ask who are we to decide where its heart is, and to amputate the > parts we think unnecessary? In Islam we speak of six pillars of belief > before the five pillars of Islam, these are believing in Allah, His > books, His prophets, His angels, the Day of Judgement, and that He is the > source of good and bad. When you refuse one word in the Book, you not > only out of Islam, but also out of belief. > > > This is possibly why Idries Shah speaks the way he does > > regarding Islam. > > And is this possibly why no other great Sufi of old presented such a > view, and none stopped the regular practices at any point of their lives? > As far as I know, Kabir, who is acknowledged by many as a great Sufi of old, was a Hindu and not a Muslim. Different people have different paths -- which are right for them. It is my experience that strict adherance to the entire Shariah is right for some people and wrong for others. Up till now, I have been one of those others. I obey some parts of the Shariah but not others. i follow my heart and do what it tells me when it tells me. if it tells me to accept Shariah totally, i will do so, otherwise i will not. Yours, Habib Rose From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 7 01:20:40 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14860; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 04:53:40 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA12398; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:52:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA11035; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:22:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10468; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:20:40 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:20:40 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Forwarded message To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:07:48 -0500 (EST) From:tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [mmoore@kirin.Tymnet.COM (Mike Moore)] >From habib@world.std.com Thu Apr 4 12:07:42 1996 Return-Path: Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA15366; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:07:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07197; Thu, 4 Apr 96 09:07:37 PST Received: from kirin by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 4 Apr 96 9:07:36 PST Received: by kirin.Tymnet.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA14187; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:07:42 -0800 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:07:42 -0800 From: mmoore@kirin.Tymnet.COM (Mike Moore) Message-Id: <199604041707.JAA14187@kirin.Tymnet.COM> To: tariqas@europe.std.com Subject: Re: DB's reply to MM X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII > I *think* that Mike Moore writes: > > Dave, > > > the fault in a teaching situation is far more often with the > > student rather than with the teacher. For myself, I will attempt > > to practice true seeking and true sincerity in that seeking. > > If I plumb my memory, I *think* I am the Dave that wrote this. At any > rate, I will try to respond. > > How do you do this? How can one know if one is truely seeking? I > myself seem to be pretty helpless when it comes to increasing my > sincerity. It seems to me a bit like Isa said: to those that have > it will be given but to those that have not, even what little they > have will be taken from them. The idea of a man pulling himself up > by his own bootstraps does not seem to fit with this idea. So it > seems that some of us are destined to 'get it' whiles other are > not. If I am one that is not, then what is the point of trying. If > I am one that is, then there is no need to try. > > To a great extent, I think it depends upon what you are trying to > *do*. Practicing as much self-honesty as you can is a good first > step. We say 'I' am trying to 'do' such-n-such. Immediately we are talking jibberish. Something we call 'I' ( which is not real ), has some false notion that it can 'do'. We know that these are lies, and yet these two great pillars support this dunya, this maya, this illusion. There is nothing we should do; there is nobody to do it; there is no doing. There is only One, but without two, One cannot exist, so there is nothing. There are many, and there is One and there is void. Meanwhile, 'I' have work to 'DO'. Cheers, -Michael- From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 5 00:20:20 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15041; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 04:55:21 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA29437; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 19:55:13 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from brutus by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA29432; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 19:55:00 -0500 (EST) From: fdobbins@alltelga.net Received: from disus.alltelga.net (port11.alltelga.net [205.240.158.111]) by brutus (SMI-8.6/8.6.11-1) with SMTP id TAA03153 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 19:50:37 -0500 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 96 16:20:20 PST Subject: Re: Forwarded Message To: tariqas@facteur.std.com X-Mailer: Chameleon V0.05, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A On Thu, 4 Apr 1996 07:36:54 -0700 (MST) Ellen L Price wrote: > > >On Wed, 3 Apr 1996, Steve H Rose wrote: > >> >> Dave, >> >> > the fault in a teaching situation is far more often with the student >> > rather than with the teacher. For myself, I will attempt to practice >> > true seeking and true sincerity in that seeking. >> >> How do you do this? How can one know if one is truely seeking? >> I myself seem to be pretty helpless when it comes to increasing >> my sincerity. It seems to me a bit like Isa said: to those that >> have it will be given but to those that have not, even what >> little they have will be taken from them. The idea of a man >> pulling himself up by his own bootstraps does not seem to >> fit with this idea. So it seems that some of us are destined >> to 'get it' whiles other are not. If I am one that is not, >> then what is the point of trying. If I am one that is, then >> there is no need to try. >> >> Anyway, back to my question; How can one attempt to practice >> true seeking and true sincerity? >> >> Best Wishes, >> -Michael- >> >> >Michael - > One does not *attempt* true seek and true sincerity. It is a matter >of the heart. One saying comes to mind, "Trying is lying." Another >saying, "Fake it until you make it." Within your heart you must know >whether you are lying to yourself. Find yourself a teacher and can serve >as a mirror. > Good luck with your search. >- Ellen - Hello, i am new to this list. I often see the words becoming a path, and not the path... And this reminds me of "trying is lying." I wonder if one tries to be a sufi, if this is the way to be a sufi.? I wonder, if a sufi is something that should never be said of one who is, because to say it is to not be it, in a manner of perspective. To this, i wonder about the "fake it till you make it," it seems that this would be a course in self-hyptnotism, rather than a drop of awareness with true sincere being. "Within your heart you must know if you are lying to yourself," this i understand and i think that i see it, but at the same time my heart moves around. I have a hard time seeing the difference between lying and changing. "Find yourself a teacher..." is important too, i think. Yet, i have not been able to find one for myself. I tend to think, "Find myself a mirror that can serve as a teacher." That mirror however stays in my head, and that is why i subbed to this list. Too much vanity in play. I am not a Sufi, nor anything for that matter. I do not know what exactly i am. I do know that I am more than i seem and less than i seem. A lot of ambiguity in what i am. Pardon the wordy introduction, please. I am pleased to meet all. darrell From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 7 01:23:49 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16531; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 05:06:51 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA12132; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:49:52 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA11241; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:27:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11368; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:23:49 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:23:49 -0500 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Forwarded message To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:50:38 -0500 (EST) From:tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [mmoore@kirin.Tymnet.COM (Mike Moore)] >From habib@world.std.com Thu Apr 4 12:50:27 1996 Return-Path: Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA20510; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 12:49:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09337; Thu, 4 Apr 96 09:49:29 PST Received: from kirin by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 4 Apr 96 9:49:29 PST Received: by kirin.Tymnet.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA14243; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:49:36 -0800 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:49:36 -0800 From: mmoore@kirin.Tymnet.COM (Mike Moore) Message-Id: <199604041749.JAA14243@kirin.Tymnet.COM> To: tariqas@europe.std.com Subject: Re: Forwarded Message X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII > > On Wed, 3 Apr 1996, Michael wrote: > > > > So it seems that some of us are destined > > to 'get it' whiles other are not. If I am one that is not, > > then what is the point of trying. If I am one that is, then > > there is no need to try. > > The two concepts in religion that are most crucial and difficult to > comprehend are God and Destiny. Many atheists are so because of bumping > into one or both of these ideas. > I hope we agree that God exists and is above Time. He does not exist in > Time, so he knows its beginning and end and all that falls between. Now > in his point of view, nothing changes in the way we sense change. > Therefore, it is all 'written' in front of him. Yet in our relative > frame, we don't know it, but we live it. I have my 'free' choice in my > decisions and actions, and these are (mostly) what will determine my > future, but being God and thus out of Time, there is nothing more natural > for Him to know what decision I will make, and where this will take me. > This is how I come to understand Destiny. > From another point, probably while talking to a materialist, I would have > given another explanation: Taking Man as a biological system, all our > decisions are the result of some electrochemical reaction in the brain, > fired by the impulses of the senses, and all our actions are the outcome > of those decisions. Thus, we come to accept Man as a deterministic > machine, that is to say, given exactly the the same circumstances and the > same records of past, a brain will make the same decision everytime. So, > everything in time seems to be falling dominoes, and given the same > start, the dominoes will fall exactly in the same order in every run. > Here Destiny is the strict, unchanging order of those dominoes, of which > our decisions and actions are each a piece. > | > | -Galileo Galilei | > +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ It seems to me that you are trying to have it both ways. That is, TWO realities. Two truths. Logically, both cannot be true because by definition, the idea of free-will opposes determinism. In math, If A is true, and B = A and C not= B, then C not true. Where B is not-free-will and A is free-will. Now, if we want to move beyond logic then fine, but in that case we must stop talking about ideas that are logical constructs such as free-will and determinism. My own belief, for what it is worth, is that these ideas are nonsence drempt up by philosophers who had to justify the fact that they were sitting around in some shady library while others were out in the hot sun harvesting grapes. ;-) As for this leading to atheism or being the basis for atheism I would say only in the minds of those with some false notion of God - and that any notion of God held in the mind is false. and As for God existing, who can say what existence is? We say God exists or God does not exist, this is all just mental flatulence. Anyway, I've got grapes to pick so take care.. -Michael- From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 6 19:40:18 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16542; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 05:06:56 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA07007; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 15:07:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA05883; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 14:41:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id LAA19652 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 11:40:20 -0800 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id LAA25977 for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 11:40:19 -0800 Message-Id: <199604061940.LAA25977@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Sufism and Religion, HIKhan and his 'Sufi' (Was Inayat's Motive) To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 11:40:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960326201912.00302770@worldweb.net> from "James McCaig" at Mar 26, 96 03:19:12 pm From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: 49960406 largely a rvw of SIKhan's text _The Way of Illumination_ Assalam alaykum, my kin. |From: James McCaig |Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 15:19:12 -0500 Maharaj Jim: |>"It was Khan's position, as I understand it, that |> Sufism did not exist without Islam and that Islam |> did not exist without Sufism." Please cite a reference in support of this. maarof@pc.jaring.my: |>...Inayat Khan was a sufi, and perhaps he was given a mission |>to teach Islam in the West. As a sufi, he has to "blend |>with the cultural environment" and spread the message of |>Islam. This makes a great deal of sense to me, though I wonder if he interpreted all of the words 'sufi', 'blend' and 'Islam' in the same way as you did. THE WAY OF ILLUMINATION by Hazrat Inayat Khan: |"Is Sufism Muslim? Is a Sufi a Mohammedan? In joining a Sufi community, |is one associating with Muslims? Is a Sufi a follower of Islam? Sufism resides within Islam. sufism extends beyond it. See my model of sufism at: ftp://ftp.portal.com/pub/ss/Avidyana/Gnostik/sufimodel.h Tear it apart and/or discuss the various issues raised at the conclusion of the file. |The word Islam means 'peace'; this is the Arabic word. |The Hebrew word is Salem (Jerusalem). Peace and its attainment in all |directions is the goal of the world. The term 'islam' is variously translated 'submission' and 'peace'. I have heard that the association to 'peace' is not as linguistic and is usually related not etymologically but thematically in that submission to Allah *brings* peace. Corrections welcome. |...the Sufi recognizes scriptures which others disregard. |...the Sufi does not follow any special book. These I would call 'sufis', and separate them from from 'Sufis' in that the former may be universal with regard to (wrt) religions. |...To a Sufi, revelation is the inherent property of every soul. That is, each sufi is a prophet of Allah (in terms of Islamic religion). |...There is a place in the Sufi understanding for all the teachings |contained in that Faith, and there can be no antagonism in the mind |of him who understands. This is what I understand to be the value of the shahadah and of the contention that Islam is a din rather than a religion. |The writings of the Christian mystics evidence the intensity of their |pursuit and devotion to the Beloved---and there is only one Beloved. I find this to be interesting. Where HIKhan expresses things controversial in the conventional sense to Muslims ('sufis don't hold to one book or one religious pathway'), he then indicates esoteric teachings of Islam (esp. the concept of 'the Beloved' and its 'Oneness'). How can HIKhan be so sure that there is only one Beloved? What if he is in error? Is he saying this only to placate Muslims or draw them in? |The devotion to the Sacred Heart will be found to be a link with the Sufi |philosophy, which recognizes and practices it in the truest sense. This is something I was remarking about in my post on sufi symbolism. The heart (Sacred Heart = qalb?) is an important sufi symbol and represents many different esoteric concepts. |...Sufism, divine wisdom, is for all, and is not limited to a certain people. So HIKhan equates sufism with "divine wisdom" (relating to the root 'soph', perhaps?). |It has existed from the first day of creation, and will continue to spread |and to exist until the end of the world. This even many Sufis (Muslim) believe, though perhaps within a particular patriarchal line (Adam-> Mosheh-> Jeheshua-> Muhammad-> sheikh). |Sufism is a mysticism if one wishes to be guided by it in the unfoldment |of the soul. Yet it is beyond mysticism. What does HIKhan mean here by saying that sufism is "beyond mysticism"? He seems to imply a greater process, a further adventure than the unfoldment of the soul. What is this preliminary experience like? What else might be included in sufism? |...Sufis have no set belief or disbelief. This in comparison to (Muslim) Sufis, who likely must be 'a believer' in order to be accepted into the Order (performing the shahadah in the presence of the sheikh at least, etc.). |Divine light is the only sustenance of their soul, and through this light |they see their path clear, This describes many a mystic. |and what they see in this light they believe, and what they do not see |they do not blindly believe. .... This is very important. The content of a sufi's beliefs are not set, but determined by the revelation to which they have been exposed. Are there commonalities amongst the processes which inspire sufic revelation? Zhikr? |...[sufis] do not interfere with another person's belief or disbelief, |thinking that perhaps a greater portion of light has kindled his heart, |and so he sees and believes that the Sufi cannot see or believe. |Or, perhaps a lesser portion of light has kept his |sight dim and he cannot see and believe as the Sufi believes. Yes, it is a mark of humility that a sufi would not interfere with another. Allah may be guiding that person in ways we could not imagine. This is not the same as not giving advice/guidance when asked, of course. |Sufis leave belief and disbelief to the grade of evolution of every |individual soul. Now, the important part (perhaps) is: is there a way to discern the 'grade of evolution' of one's OWN soul? |The Murshid's work is to kindle the fire of the heart, and |to light the torch of the soul of his mureed, and to let the mureed believe |and disbelieve as he chooses, while journeying through the path of |evolution. How kind! How compassionate! This is different than many guru- relationships I have heard described (in which the chela or student fairly submits to the teacher as Allah). I greatly love HIKhan's writings. |But in the end all culminates in one belief, Hurna man am, that |is, 'I am all that exists'; In Hermeticism, the Oath of the Abyss. In Qabalism, ADM KDMN. There are many parallels (including the Thelemic 'I am alone. There is no god where I am' or perhaps the Hindu 'I am that'). |and all other beliefs are preparatory for this final conviction, |which is called Haq al-Iman in the Sufi terminology. What is the approximate translation of 'Haq al-Iman'? I have heard that 'Al Haqq' is a name of Allah (the Truth), but I don't know 'Iman'. |As soon as the word 'theosophy' is taken to mean certain fixed beliefs or |disbeliefs, there is a difference from Sufism. Why does HIKhan even discuss 'theosophy'? It is a Blavatskyan organization combining Buddhism and Hermetica from what I can tell (bits of Christian mysticism thrown in for good measure). What interest does HIKhan have in this? |Beliefs and disbeliefs are the cause of sects, each of these being blinded |from the vision of the singleness of the whole of existence. It is this 'singleness of the whole' which I presume HIKhan means by 'the one Beloved'. Sufis seem to prefer monism or monotheism (perhaps due to religious relation), though within his words, HIKhan leaves room for other interpretations. |As soon as thought is restricted, it ceases to be Sufism. Bravo! A very sure sign to follow in researching sufism of all types. I find HIKhan's and IShah's texts to be very reconcilable, and not at all indicative of the Muslim claims made in this elist about them. I would know why any think that HIKhan or IShah supported the contention that sufism was resident wholly within the religious of Islam. Please quote them if you are able to illustrate this. So far my research indicates the opposite. |Is Sufism a school of thought? Wisdom is not restricted to one geographical |spot such as a country, a city, a building or meetingplace. Further evidence that (at least in this excerpt) HIKhan accepts the root of 'sufi' as 'soph'. |Sufism cannot be correctly described as a school of thought, if by that is |meant the instruction of a certain doctrine; In this we have a dilemma. If there is no particular doctrine which ought be ascribed to sufism, how are going to discern its rational boundaries? Perhaps HIKhan means to indicate an explosion of boundaries, and yet the previous limitation about 'set beliefs' does give us a guideline. One further line of inquiry might be something like: Is there any intersection between HIKhan's "Sufism" and that of the various Islamic Sufi Orders which appear to be more restrictive? |...it might be correct to speak of it as a school of thought in the sense |that through Sufism one learns wisdom, just as in a school one learns |wisdom of a certain kind. Sufism is beyond philosophy." Mysticism usually is. And yet HIKhan says that sufism is also beyond mysticism. Why does he say this? What do you think he means? Peace be upon you, my kin. Haramullah tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 7 11:00:35 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26437; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 07:24:02 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id HAA08459; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 07:03:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id HAA08452; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 07:03:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24428; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 07:02:00 -0400 Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id EAA23116 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 04:00:37 -0700 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id EAA26386 for tariqas@world.std.com; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 04:00:35 -0700 Message-Id: <199604071100.EAA26386@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Practices, Relatively and Universally Valid To: tariqas@world.std.com (Tariqas Elist) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 04:00:35 -0700 (PDT) From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: 49960406 assalam alaykum, my kin |From: ennea@net-gate.com (Mark Fenkner) |Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 23:05:30 -0500 |...some rituals and practices are created for objective purposes that are |not universally valid for all times and places. please provide an example of a practice which you think of as 'universally valid', if possible, or explain why it isn't if not :> generally religious practices are created to initiate changes in consciousness and/or awareness in the designated practitioners or those perceiving them, or to symbolize a previous event in which such a change took place. at times there are social traditions which arise within religions and outlive their value I would mention as possible candidates of this assertion religious rites which involve bodily or psychological harm to children or other innocents in irreparable ways, or those which inspire their devotees to fanaticism and warfare (some Sunna rites and the offensive Jihad strike me as important considerations) |I would appreciate any feedback on this idea, especially regarding Islam. Allah often directs different people to do different things at different times, sometimes tells us how long that direction ought hold (until a new agreement is made, until we achieve unity with Hir, etc.), and for whom the vision or revelation is intended (as in _Al Qur'an_) it is quite possible that the will of Allah is like a comet whose center is so powerful that even when Hir perimeter has reached Hir intended target some aspect of Hir inception will live on, even in the form of symbolic and plain rituals or adornments. these become the foundations of religious tradition and can sometimes be terminated or changed if they do not conform sufficiently to cultural norms an example of this latter is the British extermination of the Thuggee cult in India. spparentlly a band of people strangled outlanders from neighboring villages in association with their religion (perhaps in worship of a wrathful aspect of Kali). given their controversy, the Thuggees were eliminated. one might also compare this with ritualistic cannibals or head-hunters doomsday cults, especially those which store a great deal of armaments and foretell of the Great War, can at times become extremely dangerous to their membership. communities sometimes take action in retaliation when they are harmed or feel threatened by them (as with the apocalyptic Aum Shinryu cult in Japan, for example) in the case of Islam and what should and shouldn't be part of the religion, ablution seems a mild and of the more symbolic of the possible alternative first steps of changing the traditions. I'd compare ablution to baptism or aspergation in many religions and would suggest challenging instead the violence mentioned above, which is said by some to take place in many religions including Islam I leave to you what to add and subtract to create your pact with Allah. for those who are not graced with such a relationship with the Beloved, the traditional structures are available, as are the sometimes hazardous alternatives. may you find the Truth in your own time peace be with you, my kin Haramullah tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 7 12:16:27 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05006; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 08:35:24 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA10531; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 08:17:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA10527; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 08:17:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id FAA24537 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 05:16:29 -0700 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id FAA28875 for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 05:16:27 -0700 Message-Id: <199604071216.FAA28875@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: HIKhan and Liberalism (Was Inayat's Motive) To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 05:16:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: from "Steve H Rose" at Apr 6, 96 06:45:36 pm From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: 49960407 Happy Holy Days (Neopagan Eostar; Jewish Seder; Christian Easter, and near Thelemic ALmas>4:8/9/10) assalam alaykum, my kin |From: Jawad Qureshi |Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 18:09:56 -0600 (CST) |...if this was his goal, [HIKhan] was far from successful; I mean, |a good number of his followers don't even represent in the slightest |even the most liberal forms of Islam. that would make sense, given what I have read of his and IShah's writings. their Sufism is the heart of all living religious systems as I understand it, and this might include Islam and it might not (excepting in its heart) now the objection I can see raised to this is "what if the practices of the religion which you are throwing out are really the 'heart' of the religious tradition?" |they have told me that they really don't see the need for prayer, |and their concepts of Allah (SWT) are ussually borrowed from different |systems of belief (Hinduism, Buddhism) that would make sense. there appears to be a continuum of practice and thought with the more liberal represented by teachers such as HIKhan and Idries Shah, perhaps to the extremes with people like Osho (BSRajneesh) if you met people who didn't appear to be very Muslim then they probably came at sufism from a completely different slant than the Muslim Orders (through HIKhan, the writings of Rumi or via other great Asian and Middle-Eastern mystics) |...they don't make any attempt to hide it even: they flat out admit |that they mix and match what they want. of course. if we picture the religious centers of the world as markets, with central mysticism clothing stores, then it seems the stereotype of which you speak is someone who wishes to pick the fruits of these without ever having worked to cultivate the plants; to benefit from the religous traditions without having deeply participating in the social traditions themselves or submitted to a rigorous discipline there are eclectics who are quite disciplined and mature. they will at times inspire entire schools in their wake, or vanish from the stage without ever being known by the social consciousness (perhaps this is an esoteric significance of 'the hidden imam' in Shi'ite Islam) |...how do we define Sufism? this is what I have asked occasionally since the inception of this elist, and always it is so wonderful to come back to new and different variations, more and varying significance which 'sufism' includes Shah fairly dissects it in _The Way of the Sufi_, right at the start. very lovely, and not extremely harsh or accepting. he merely lays out the popular options available to the reader, indicating what he considers to be more valuable overall (which tends toward the traditional Muslim Sufi writings as well other mystics like Emerson, Nicholson and Michelet (quoting the latter's _Satanism and Witchcraft_ on p. 361 as "an orientation to the days when the seeds of Sufi thinking through poetry and music were providing leaven to Western thought which is still with us"). |When this is clearly defined, then we can make such claims. a dozen definitions have come to me thusfar. perhaps I should catalog more of them than I have recently stated in Tariqas, or we could compose a compilation file for the benefit of those who wish to research it easily or ask about its possible variable meanings |What is the definition of Sufism, and what reality of it do we follow? must we come to one as a group? I don't think this was necessarily what you were suggesting. there are many ways to understand a thing and one of these is through definition. another way would be through examination of the context (as Schopenhauer's examination of 'religion'). I have seen similar approaches by various Sufi sheikhs who wrote about principles but rarely got into much about practices, describing the intellectual or philosophical context but omitting the practical details) |Many people will give a definition to satisfy the person that they are |talking to, but act totally different. how can we be humble and suggest that we have 'the definition' in our grasp? I have at times remarked what it is said that the word 'sufism' means, and yet I have no personal preferences or beliefs about any one 'real' meaning. I enjoy them all to some degree like IShah's analysis of the term 'troubador' in _The Sufis_, where he breaks the word root into 10 different lines and elaborates the variations of their application to Sufic influence on Western culture (p. 359). I don't find a need to ask which one (or 2 or 3 or 4) are the Right One(s). I derived value from understanding each of them he presented, and it is the case also with the terms 'sufi' and 'sufism' |When something like the above quote is said, the terms have to be understood. what would be the worst that could happen if they were not? is the fount of wisdom in poesy and prose always comprehensible to the artist? did not even Muhammad, an illiterate, fail to at first comprehend what had been given unto him by Allah through Gabriel in the stories of his revelation? peace be upon you, my kin Haramullah tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 7 18:23:52 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13953; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:39:22 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA01367; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:23:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA01356; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:23:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Hafizullah@aol.com Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA18302 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:23:52 -0400 Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:23:52 -0400 Message-Id: <960407142351_186374049@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: wudu Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 96-04-06 16:43:18 EDT, you write: >I still hold to the >argument >that some rituals and practices are created for objective purposes that are >not >universally valid for all times and places. I also hold this opinion --- but it's only my opinion, and carefully labeled as such. The question then becomes: Do I have the degree of discernment that will enable me to keep the baby when I toss the bathwater? There are often a multiplicity of purposes served by certain forms such as wudu or prostrations. The inner realms can be very, very subtle, and which is essential and which is window-dressing is not always obvious. And worse: It may change according to your degree of development ("maqam"). Now, I'm talking metaphysics here. Lest I be accused of denying that there are eternal truths embodied in true religion, let me say that I'm not smart enough to argue about religion. I leave it to those who know more about it to comment on that subject. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 7 18:23:57 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14045; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:39:35 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA01383; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:23:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA01373; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:23:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Hafizullah@aol.com Received: by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA12354 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:23:57 -0400 Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:23:57 -0400 Message-Id: <960407142356_186374081@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: ***Questions on Dancing Dervishes**** Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 96-04-06 18:05:30 EDT, you write: >Could anyone kindly provide me with some information in answer to the >following >questions (presented to me by one of the students of the University of >Helsinki): > >1. How and why dancing entered the Sufism? >2. Who were the first Sufis who practised dancing? >3. Why did the Rumi chose dancing? >4. Is there any symbolic meaning for certain movements in the=20 >dancing of whirling dervishes? As a student in the lineage of the Mevlevi Dervishes and a teacher of "Th= e Turn," as it is called, I can offer this: All the dervish orders practice some sort of "moving meditation" that cou= ld be termed "dance," but the term "dance" is inaccurate and misleading: We= do not do it for fun. These "dances" are performed in circles and/or lines,= and the phrases which are repeated or sung and the movements performed are peculiar to each dervish Order. The phrases and movements are not just traditional or arbitrary: Every detail has its purpose in tuning consciousness and in moving energy in certain ways. The sacred dance is n= ot a mere folk tradition: This is an extremely sophisticated technology that= has been in use for thousands of years. The whirling in circles is one such moving meditation that is done mostly (but not exclusively) by the initia= tic lineage descended from Mevlana Jelaluddin Rumi. He did not invent it. H= e merely brought forward something that has always existed, and he did so because The Turn does things that is needed by the present cycle of human= ity and even by the earth itself. We who Turn do not do it for ourselves. T= here is a symbolic meaning to each detail of the costume and the movements, bu= t to be truthful, the symbolic meaning is not of prime importance. We speak o= f the symbolic meanings to people who are not prepared to understand the hi= gher and deeper purposes for which we do these things. There is a kind of inn= er knowledge or intuitive understanding that reveals itself to you in The Tu= rn, but it cannot be put into words and you can only known it through single-minded dedication to your own inner development. "If you are quiet and in a state of prayer when you Turn, offering everyt= hing of yourself to God, then, when your body is spinning, there is a complete= ly still point the center... The heavens respond; and all the invisible king= doms join in the dance. But the world does not understand. They think we Tur= n in order to go into some sort of trance. It is true that sometimes we do go into that state you call ecstasy, but that is only when we know and experience at the same time. We do not Turn for ourselves. We turn arou= nd in the way we do so that the Light of God may descend upon the earth. As= you act as a conduit in the Turn, the light comes through the right hand, and= the left hand brings it into this world... We turn for God and for the world,= and it is the most beautiful thing you can imagine." ---Hajji Murshid S=FCleyman Hayati Dede, Shaikh of the Mevlev= i Order If you have any further questions, I would be most happy to answer them. in Service, Hafizullah From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 7 18:24:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14975; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:41:25 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA01385; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:23:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA01374; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:23:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Hafizullah@aol.com Received: by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA15153 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:24:00 -0400 Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:24:00 -0400 Message-Id: <960407142359_186374099@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Sufism and Religion, HIKhan and his 'Sufi' (Was Inayat's Motive) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 96-04-07 04:58:14 EDT, you write: >I would know why any think that HIKhan or IShah supported the contention >that sufism was resident wholly within the religious of Islam. Please >quote them if you are able to illustrate this. So far my research >indicates the opposite. It doesn't get much clearer than this... The following is to be found in an unpublished transcript of a talk given by Inayat Khan to his students and only available to teachers within the groups initiatically descended from HIK. In this series of papers (Sangatha I) Inayat Khan calls sufism "...a school which existed even before Abraham, the father of three great religions, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Those who know Sufism from superficial writings, and, sometimes, from translations of the Arabic or Persian literature, are apt to think that Sufism is the mystical side of Islam. In reality, it is not true. Sufism existed before Mohammed, before Jesus Christ, before Abraham. It is true that the mystics in the world of Islam are Sufis, but that does not mean that Sufi means the mystic of Islam. For instance, the green color is the national color of the Irish, but that does not mean that everybody who dresses in green is from Ireland. The green color existed even before people inhabited Ireland." Bear in mind that he spoke this sometime in the early 1920s. Another very interesting passage is published in "The Gathas," in the paper entitled "The Greek Mysteries (II)": "This was really a Sufi institution, though not called by this name, for exactly the same thing is to be found today in the schools of Sufis in India and Persia." What's so interesting to me is how closely HIK's views on the nature and origin of Sufism so closely parallel those of I. Shah. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 7 19:50:18 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22344; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:11:08 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA08047; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 15:50:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA08039; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 15:50:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA24947 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 15:50:18 -0400 Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 15:50:18 -0400 Message-Id: <960407155018_186409398@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Islam and Sufi [was Re: Inayat's motive (fwd) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: hello Jawad, Maarof, Maharaj Jim, and all, peace and greetings I will just reply to part of this posting. You ask (among other interesting questions) how we define sufi if it is not defined as a part of species of Islam. (I hope that's an accurate paraphrase) I do not define it (and the "you" here obviously represents a lot of varying viewpoints of such a question), but my impression is that one way to make sense of what a sufi is without so defining him/her, is to say that the sufi tradition is a mystical tradition using the teachings, writings, metaphors, and understandings, including those making use of terms in the Arabic, Persian, and Urdu languages (primarily, speaking historically). In this way a Sufi might speak of union with Allah, understanding Allah as one way to try to put into language something that cannot. Other traditions know this same issue, and many are the attempts to try to point in words to the ineffable. In any case, I think there are possibilities here both of recognizing the special relation between Sufi teachings and the Islamic tradition without eliminating those also taken to be Sufis by clearly Islamic Sufi (or: Islamic and Sufi) writers and teachers. does that make sense, or is it repulsive (or both)? peace unto you and all creatures, Jinavamsa PS there is no significance in my capitalization above or in general, mostly. just depends on whether my thumb gets over to the caps/shift key as i type or not. In a message dated 96-04-07 04:06:40 EDT, you write: >From: Jawad Qureshi >X-Sender: c640429@indy30.gclab.missouri.edu >To: tariqas@europe.std.com >cc: tariqas@world.std.com >Subject: Re: Inayat's Motive >In-Reply-To: <199603261753.BAA16234@relay3.jaring.my> >Message-ID: >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE > >On Wed, 27 Mar 1996 maarof@pc.jaring.my wrote: > >> Maharaj Jim said (among othe things)" >>=20 >> --------------------------------------------------- >> "It was Khan's position, as I understand it, that >> Sufism did not exist without Islam and that Islam >> did not exist without Sufism." >> --------------------------------------------------- >>=20 >> I am not very familiar with Inayat Khan. From a few=20 >> books that I read about sufism in general, I believe >> Inayat Khan was a sufi, and perhaps he was given a mission >> to teach Islam in the West. As a sufi, he has to "blend >> with the cultural environment" and spread the message of >> Islam. >>=20 >> I would appreciate any comment on this matter. >>=20 >> Best regards >>=20 >> Maarof >>=20 > >Salam,=20 > >Well, I must admit that there if this was his goal, he was far from=20 >successful; I mean, a good number of his followers don't even represent=20 >in the slightest even the most liberal forms of Islam. In the limited=20 >meetings that I have had with a few of them, they have told me that they=20 >really don't see the need for prayer, and their concepts of Allah (SWT)=20 >are ussually borrowed from different systems of belief (Hinduism,=20 >Buddhism) and they don't make any attempt to hide it even: they flat out= >=20 >admit that they mix and match what they want. =20 > >Now, to say that Islam can not exist without Sufism, this poses a=20 >problem: how do we define Sufism? When this is clearly defined, then we=20 >can make such claims. Do we define it as man becoming one with Allah? =20 >Is Sufism the path that one takes to purity? Is it the path to=20 >perfection of servitude? Is it to worship Allah AS IF we see Him? Is it= >=20 >to follow a saint? Is it to give allegiance to a Sufi Master? Is it to=20 >follow the Last of All Prophets - may Allah send his blessings and mercy=20 >on him? What is the definition of Sufism, and what reality of it do we=20 >follow? Many people will give a definition to satisfy the person that=20 >thy are talking to, but act totally different. When something like the=20 >above quote is said, the terms have to be understood. > >I too am not very familiar with Inayat Khan, and I don't mean to sound=20 >rude or disrespectful to him even. I have read a little bit of his=20 >material, but I can't say that I am well versed in his thinking. =E3 to: tariqas@europe.std.com From tariqas-approval@world.std.com Sun Apr 0 20:23:51 1907 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29205; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:30:42 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA11067; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:30:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kaos.deepcove.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27542; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:26:42 -0400 From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Message-Id: <199604072026.AA27542@world.std.com> Report-Version: 2 >To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Date: Sun Apr 7 20:23:51 GMT 1996 Original-Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:16:06 -0700 (PDT) Original-Subject: Buddhism and Islam, Teachers and Lineage Not-Delivered-To: !recipients due to 12 Inability To Transfer ORIGINAL MESSAGE ATTACHED (rmail: Error # 2 'Problem with mailfile') En-Route-To: shauman Content-Type: text Status: RO X-Status: Received: from europe.std.com(199.172.62.20) by Kaos via smap (V1.3) id sma027279; Sun Apr 7 13:23:33 1996 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA10129; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:17:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA10125; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:17:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id NAA08940 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:16:09 -0700 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id NAA19040 for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:16:07 -0700 Message-ID: <199604072016.NAA19040@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Buddhism and Islam, Teachers and Lineage To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:16:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <960407011114_507542940@emout04.mail.aol.com> from "Jinavamsa@aol.com" at Apr 7, 96 01:11:14 am From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Length: 8069 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com 49960407 assalam alaykum, my kin |From: Jinavamsa@aol.com |Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 01:11:14 -0500 |>|Is the Buddha considered not to be a true teacher because he had no teacher |>|and was a self-appointed teacher? |>...The Buddha is often depicted as having studied with two contemporaries |>and mastering their disciplines.... |Yes, he had two teachers, Aa.laara Kaalaama and then Uddaka Raamaputta (or |Raamaputra in Skt). PHarvey translates their names as Alara the Kalama and Uddaka the son of Rama |...both acknowledged him as fully educated in their disciplines, their discipline did not instruct in an intellectual fashion as much as in the mastering of certain states of consciousness. you are correct that the Buddhist sutras usually describe the Buddha as having mastered the states of mind over which these men were masters and transcending into the substratum states of consciousness 'upon which both of these were based', in the process becoming the master of each of his teachers |...he himself felt there were much more important stuff left to learn. yes, though this is usually described as 'perceiving that what he was taught was only part of a greater whole', founded upon more subtle awarenesses, etc. |He then went beyond their teachings ...and what he decided was worth |teaching (sometimes called the four noble truths including the fourth, |itself called the eight-fold path) was *not* something he had learned |from these two teachers. there are some who suggest that the teachings of the Samanas with whom the Buddha is said to have studied aside from his teachers comprise a great deal of what has come today to be called Buddhism and yet that what the Buddha made popular were the secret or advanced teachings of those individuals. in this way some claim for him a kind of 'funda- mental traditional origin' separate from the Brahmanism which was practiced by many Indians of the time in his area of India also, the way you describe it as the Buddha 'deciding what was worth teaching' is somewhat ambiguous and may lead us astray. rather than get into a detailed debate about what the Buddha taught and how, I would rather merely state alternatives I have heard and encourage the reader to consider carefully that matters regarding Buddhism are at times confusing and quite complex due its age and mobility) in any case I agree with you that the teachers of yogic concentration with whom the Buddha studied are not usually said to have originated what he taught. the same is also true of Muhammad, whose live was blessed by Allah with the recitation of _Al Qur'an_ (a revelation to which his human friends and teachers had no previous exposure as I understand it; corrections welcome) |So in that relevant way, he did not have teachers. what constitutes 'relevance' is a matter of debate. as I said above, some think the Buddha's teachers of a great portion of his material may have been the Samanas, whom PHarvey describes in this way: The time of the Buddha was one of changing social conditions, where the traditions of small kin-based communities were bing undermined as these were swallowed up by expanding kingdoms, such as those of Magadha and Kosala. A number of cities had developed which were the centres of administration and of developing organized trad, based on a money economy. The ideas expressed in the *Upanisads* were starting to filter out into the wider intellectual community and were being hotly debated, both by Brahmins and wandering philosophers, known as *Samanas*, who were somewhat akin to the early Greek philosophers and mystics. The *Samanas* rejected the Vedic tradition and wandered free of family ties, living by alms, in order to think, debate and investigate. _An Introduction to Buddhism_, by PHarvey, Cambridge University Press, 1991; p. 11. _______________________________ many Samanas in fact taught similar or the same things as the Buddha, such as the doctrines of Rebirth and Karma which are traditionally associated with Buddhism. traditional Buddhist teachings also indicate that other Samana sects or strands were evaluated and reviewed by the Buddha, contrasting his own Middle Way with the teachings of various others in the Samana movement |(If you have a teacher who teaches you the alphabet and you then go off and |start reading and composing poetry on your own, that goes way beyond what |your teachers taught you. Just a metaphor.) Gotama Buddha life is a formula, an example, a shining beacon of success to those of us who suffer and wonder how this suffering might be ended. it did not begin at his instruction of yogic meditation. this was a very particular time wherein he learned subtle concentration techniques to which he would add a great cache of others in consequence of his explorations in the fields of consciousness his first instruction came as a Prince of a large kingdom in India. he was given everything a boy could want, though spared specific types of phenomenon (that later became transformative for him) such as the awareness of illness, age, death and monasticism on account of his father's desire for him to succeed him as ruler. there had been prophesies concerning what would happen should he learn of these things the bulk of the instruction concerning the life of the Buddha within modern Buddhism was created, as so many of the mystics after him, a half-dozen centuries after his death, compiled of various traditional and oral accounts from all this I do see your point. the Buddha discovered something NEW. he was moving BEYOND the teachings of his contemporaries, exploring and discussing/instructing on the various meditational methods he amassed and yet his instruction reflects his encounter with the Real. Buddhist instruction variably categorizes what he engaged as 'buddha-consciousness', 'nirvana' or 'perfect enlightenment', and often qualifies all methods taught by the Buddha and his successors as '(kausalya) upaya' or 'skilful means' upaya is reminiscent of the classification system I have heard spoken of by Muslims, according that a variety of rules/restrictions/practices are available and that one's level of understanding and awareness might dictate what practice/teaching was appropriate to the level of the student (the guide/sheikh/master/sensei providing valuable input here) |My question was simply about the idea that a teacher cannot be a teacher if |the lineage of that teacher does not satisfy a particular scrutiny. Gotama's lineage begins with him in conservative accounts, yet there are also teachings which asertain the Buddha's instruction to have been at a certain point in his innumerable lives (rebirth is a fundamental doctrine within Buddhism and many of the surrounding religious of the Buddha's time) one account has him studying under the buddha Dipankara, for example, and some Buddhists teach that Gotama was the final and perfect One who had been born as all previous Buddhas in a type of mystical relation into which we might join (compare this to the 'Golden Chain' of traditional sufism in that the buddhas form a 'chain' of rebirth and within each is a graduated development of consciousness) |it applied in a way not only to the Buddha but also to Mohammed himself, |in a way that it does not apply to those who heard from ..... who heard |from Mohammed. I would compare Muhammad's engagement of al Haqq, the Real, through His agent Gabriel, with the Buddha's 'perfect enlightenment'. both are reputed to have gone into seclusion (Muhammad to a cave). both came away from the experience with instruction for the composition of a new of religious practice varying from that around them (Muhammad contrasting his monotheism with the polytheism of the surrounding Meccan region) it seems to me that the Buddha does qualify here within certain accounts of his life/lives, but these are very extensive and may support all manner of assertion peace be with you, my kin Haramullah tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com From tariqas-approval@world.std.com Sun Apr 0 20:28:19 1907 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29844; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:32:40 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA11250; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:32:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kaos.deepcove.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29183; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:30:39 -0400 From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Message-Id: <199604072030.AA29183@world.std.com> Report-Version: 2 >To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Date: Sun Apr 7 20:28:19 GMT 1996 Original-Date: Sun, 7 Apr 96 13:21 PDT Original-Subject: Pir O Murshid Hazart Inyat Khan Not-Delivered-To: !recipients due to 12 Inability To Transfer ORIGINAL MESSAGE ATTACHED (rmail: Error # 2 'Problem with mailfile') En-Route-To: shauman Content-Type: text Status: RO X-Status: Received: from europe.std.com(199.172.62.20) by Kaos via smap (V1.3) id sma027474; Sun Apr 7 13:27:41 1996 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA10328; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:21:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA10324; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:21:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from James.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0u60xW-000FfYC; Sun, 7 Apr 96 13:21 PDT Message-ID: Date: Sun, 7 Apr 96 13:21 PDT X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Length: 2360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: Pir O Murshid Hazart Inyat Khan Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com There have been several comments which have neen made concerning Pir O Murshid Hazarat Inyat Khan. The first thing I would like to say is that when ever he is referred to as Hik even on the WH List I take offence so if my feelings matter I request that he be refrerred to by his full name. He was in fact born a Moselm. He was given a mission of not spreading Islam to the West but rather Sufism. Suffism as he presents it represents a message. The message uses perfect love, beauty and harmony as the three pillars upon which it stands. He also declares the validity of all religeon. Regarding his mureeds. There refer to Allah as an unknowable essence. They are not necessarily Moslems although they might be. His ten tenents as to what it means to be a Sufi which can be found in Vol I of The Inner Life pages 13-21 are as foolows: 1. The is one God, the Eternal, the Only Being, none exists save He. 2. There is one Holy Book, the sacred manuscript of nature, the only scripture which can elighten the reader. 3. There is one Master, The Guiding Spirit of All Souls, who constantly leads His followers towards the light. 4. There is one religeon, the unswerving progress in the right direction towards the ideal, which fulfils the life's purpose of every soul. 5. There is One Law, the law of reciprocity, which can be observed by a selfless conscience, together with a sense of awakened justice. 6 There is one brotherhood, the human brotherhood which united the children of earth indescriminitly in the Fatherhood of God. 7. There is one moral, the love which springs forth from self denial and blooms in deeds of beneficiance. 8. There is one Truth, the true knowledge of our being, within and without, which is the essence of all wisdom. 9. There is one object of prasie the beauty which uplifts the hearts of its worshippers through all aspects from the seen to the unseen. 10 There is one path, the annihilation of the false ego in the real, which raises the mortal to immortality, in which resides all perfection. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 7 20:16:06 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00331; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:34:00 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA10129; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:17:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA10125; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:17:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id NAA08940 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:16:09 -0700 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id NAA19040 for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:16:07 -0700 Message-Id: <199604072016.NAA19040@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Buddhism and Islam, Teachers and Lineage To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:16:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <960407011114_507542940@emout04.mail.aol.com> from "Jinavamsa@aol.com" at Apr 7, 96 01:11:14 am From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: 49960407 assalam alaykum, my kin |From: Jinavamsa@aol.com |Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 01:11:14 -0500 |>|Is the Buddha considered not to be a true teacher because he had no teacher |>|and was a self-appointed teacher? |>...The Buddha is often depicted as having studied with two contemporaries |>and mastering their disciplines.... |Yes, he had two teachers, Aa.laara Kaalaama and then Uddaka Raamaputta (or |Raamaputra in Skt). PHarvey translates their names as Alara the Kalama and Uddaka the son of Rama |...both acknowledged him as fully educated in their disciplines, their discipline did not instruct in an intellectual fashion as much as in the mastering of certain states of consciousness. you are correct that the Buddhist sutras usually describe the Buddha as having mastered the states of mind over which these men were masters and transcending into the substratum states of consciousness 'upon which both of these were based', in the process becoming the master of each of his teachers |...he himself felt there were much more important stuff left to learn. yes, though this is usually described as 'perceiving that what he was taught was only part of a greater whole', founded upon more subtle awarenesses, etc. |He then went beyond their teachings ...and what he decided was worth |teaching (sometimes called the four noble truths including the fourth, |itself called the eight-fold path) was *not* something he had learned |from these two teachers. there are some who suggest that the teachings of the Samanas with whom the Buddha is said to have studied aside from his teachers comprise a great deal of what has come today to be called Buddhism and yet that what the Buddha made popular were the secret or advanced teachings of those individuals. in this way some claim for him a kind of 'funda- mental traditional origin' separate from the Brahmanism which was practiced by many Indians of the time in his area of India also, the way you describe it as the Buddha 'deciding what was worth teaching' is somewhat ambiguous and may lead us astray. rather than get into a detailed debate about what the Buddha taught and how, I would rather merely state alternatives I have heard and encourage the reader to consider carefully that matters regarding Buddhism are at times confusing and quite complex due its age and mobility) in any case I agree with you that the teachers of yogic concentration with whom the Buddha studied are not usually said to have originated what he taught. the same is also true of Muhammad, whose live was blessed by Allah with the recitation of _Al Qur'an_ (a revelation to which his human friends and teachers had no previous exposure as I understand it; corrections welcome) |So in that relevant way, he did not have teachers. what constitutes 'relevance' is a matter of debate. as I said above, some think the Buddha's teachers of a great portion of his material may have been the Samanas, whom PHarvey describes in this way: The time of the Buddha was one of changing social conditions, where the traditions of small kin-based communities were bing undermined as these were swallowed up by expanding kingdoms, such as those of Magadha and Kosala. A number of cities had developed which were the centres of administration and of developing organized trad, based on a money economy. The ideas expressed in the *Upanisads* were starting to filter out into the wider intellectual community and were being hotly debated, both by Brahmins and wandering philosophers, known as *Samanas*, who were somewhat akin to the early Greek philosophers and mystics. The *Samanas* rejected the Vedic tradition and wandered free of family ties, living by alms, in order to think, debate and investigate. _An Introduction to Buddhism_, by PHarvey, Cambridge University Press, 1991; p. 11. _______________________________ many Samanas in fact taught similar or the same things as the Buddha, such as the doctrines of Rebirth and Karma which are traditionally associated with Buddhism. traditional Buddhist teachings also indicate that other Samana sects or strands were evaluated and reviewed by the Buddha, contrasting his own Middle Way with the teachings of various others in the Samana movement |(If you have a teacher who teaches you the alphabet and you then go off and |start reading and composing poetry on your own, that goes way beyond what |your teachers taught you. Just a metaphor.) Gotama Buddha life is a formula, an example, a shining beacon of success to those of us who suffer and wonder how this suffering might be ended. it did not begin at his instruction of yogic meditation. this was a very particular time wherein he learned subtle concentration techniques to which he would add a great cache of others in consequence of his explorations in the fields of consciousness his first instruction came as a Prince of a large kingdom in India. he was given everything a boy could want, though spared specific types of phenomenon (that later became transformative for him) such as the awareness of illness, age, death and monasticism on account of his father's desire for him to succeed him as ruler. there had been prophesies concerning what would happen should he learn of these things the bulk of the instruction concerning the life of the Buddha within modern Buddhism was created, as so many of the mystics after him, a half-dozen centuries after his death, compiled of various traditional and oral accounts from all this I do see your point. the Buddha discovered something NEW. he was moving BEYOND the teachings of his contemporaries, exploring and discussing/instructing on the various meditational methods he amassed and yet his instruction reflects his encounter with the Real. Buddhist instruction variably categorizes what he engaged as 'buddha-consciousness', 'nirvana' or 'perfect enlightenment', and often qualifies all methods taught by the Buddha and his successors as '(kausalya) upaya' or 'skilful means' upaya is reminiscent of the classification system I have heard spoken of by Muslims, according that a variety of rules/restrictions/practices are available and that one's level of understanding and awareness might dictate what practice/teaching was appropriate to the level of the student (the guide/sheikh/master/sensei providing valuable input here) |My question was simply about the idea that a teacher cannot be a teacher if |the lineage of that teacher does not satisfy a particular scrutiny. Gotama's lineage begins with him in conservative accounts, yet there are also teachings which asertain the Buddha's instruction to have been at a certain point in his innumerable lives (rebirth is a fundamental doctrine within Buddhism and many of the surrounding religious of the Buddha's time) one account has him studying under the buddha Dipankara, for example, and some Buddhists teach that Gotama was the final and perfect One who had been born as all previous Buddhas in a type of mystical relation into which we might join (compare this to the 'Golden Chain' of traditional sufism in that the buddhas form a 'chain' of rebirth and within each is a graduated development of consciousness) |it applied in a way not only to the Buddha but also to Mohammed himself, |in a way that it does not apply to those who heard from ..... who heard |from Mohammed. I would compare Muhammad's engagement of al Haqq, the Real, through His agent Gabriel, with the Buddha's 'perfect enlightenment'. both are reputed to have gone into seclusion (Muhammad to a cave). both came away from the experience with instruction for the composition of a new of religious practice varying from that around them (Muhammad contrasting his monotheism with the polytheism of the surrounding Meccan region) it seems to me that the Buddha does qualify here within certain accounts of his life/lives, but these are very extensive and may support all manner of assertion peace be with you, my kin Haramullah tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 7 20:21:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02625; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:40:03 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA10328; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:21:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA10324; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:21:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from James.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0u60xW-000FfYC; Sun, 7 Apr 96 13:21 PDT Message-Id: Date: Sun, 7 Apr 96 13:21 PDT X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: Pir O Murshid Hazart Inyat Khan Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: There have been several comments which have neen made concerning Pir O Murshid Hazarat Inyat Khan. The first thing I would like to say is that when ever he is referred to as Hik even on the WH List I take offence so if my feelings matter I request that he be refrerred to by his full name. He was in fact born a Moselm. He was given a mission of not spreading Islam to the West but rather Sufism. Suffism as he presents it represents a message. The message uses perfect love, beauty and harmony as the three pillars upon which it stands. He also declares the validity of all religeon. Regarding his mureeds. There refer to Allah as an unknowable essence. They are not necessarily Moslems although they might be. His ten tenents as to what it means to be a Sufi which can be found in Vol I of The Inner Life pages 13-21 are as foolows: 1. The is one God, the Eternal, the Only Being, none exists save He. 2. There is one Holy Book, the sacred manuscript of nature, the only scripture which can elighten the reader. 3. There is one Master, The Guiding Spirit of All Souls, who constantly leads His followers towards the light. 4. There is one religeon, the unswerving progress in the right direction towards the ideal, which fulfils the life's purpose of every soul. 5. There is One Law, the law of reciprocity, which can be observed by a selfless conscience, together with a sense of awakened justice. 6 There is one brotherhood, the human brotherhood which united the children of earth indescriminitly in the Fatherhood of God. 7. There is one moral, the love which springs forth from self denial and blooms in deeds of beneficiance. 8. There is one Truth, the true knowledge of our being, within and without, which is the essence of all wisdom. 9. There is one object of prasie the beauty which uplifts the hearts of its worshippers through all aspects from the seen to the unseen. 10 There is one path, the annihilation of the false ego in the real, which raises the mortal to immortality, in which resides all perfection. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 7 20:33:24 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04752; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:47:52 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA11302; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:33:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from sgi5.phlab.missouri.edu by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA11298; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:33:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from c640429@localhost) by sgi5.phlab.missouri.edu (8.7.4/8.7.1) id PAA06646; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 15:33:24 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 15:33:24 -0500 (CDT) From: Jawad Qureshi X-Sender: c640429@sgi5.phlab.missouri.edu To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Islam and Sufi [was Re: Inayat's motive (fwd) In-Reply-To: <960407155018_186409398@emout10.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 7 Apr 1996 Jinavamsa@aol.com wrote: > hello Jawad, Maarof, Maharaj Jim, and all, > > peace and greetings > > I will just reply to part of this posting. > > You ask (among other interesting questions) how we define sufi if it is not > defined as a part of species of Islam. (I hope that's an accurate paraphrase) > > I do not define it (and the "you" here obviously represents a lot of varying > viewpoints of such a question), but my impression is that one way to make > sense of what a sufi is without so defining him/her, is to say that the sufi > tradition is a mystical tradition using the teachings, writings, metaphors, > and understandings, including those making use of terms in the Arabic, > Persian, and Urdu languages (primarily, speaking historically). In this way a > Sufi might speak of union with Allah, understanding Allah as one way to try > to put into language something that cannot. Other traditions know this same > issue, and many are the attempts to try to point in words to the ineffable. > In any case, I think there are possibilities here both of recognizing the > special relation between Sufi teachings and the Islamic tradition without > eliminating those also taken to be Sufis by clearly Islamic Sufi (or: Islamic > and Sufi) writers and teachers. > does that make sense, or is it repulsive (or both)? > peace unto you and all creatures, > Jinavamsa > PS there is no significance in my capitalization above or in general, mostly. > just depends on whether my thumb gets over to the caps/shift key as i type or > not. > > Salam, Sorry, but not a lot of what was said above made clear sense to me! :> Let me see if I got it right: the definition that a Sufi is one on the path to God seeking Union, and uses (traditionally) texts that are in Arabic, Urdu, and Persian? This poses a tremendous problem: there are many Sufis that flat out contradict one another, and state that the other is miguided and has been deluded. Look at the writings of Shaykh Ahmed Sirhindi, who is called MUjaddid Alf Thani, the Reviver for the Next Thousand Years, and compare his texts to that of other Sufis. Look at Junaid and Hallaj! This definition (even though you said that you weren't trying to define it) poses yet a bigger problem that is not resolved: it recognizes sainthood, but belittles prophethood. If we are all heading and looking for God, and God is telling us that He has sent us people to guide us to Him (Prophets), why then is the path of the Prophet left alone, and pushed on the side? There are many other problems with this "definition" but this will suffice for now. Salam, Jawad. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 8 01:06:43 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20674; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 21:30:20 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id VAA04218; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 21:08:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id VAA04211; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 21:08:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kiaora.cc.columbia.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09608; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 21:06:44 -0400 Received: (from zi1@localhost) by kiaora.cc.columbia.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA28570; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 21:06:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 21:06:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Zaineb Istrabadi X-Sender: zi1@kiaora.cc.columbia.edu To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Sufism Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A Assalamu alaykum, Everyone. Sufism is not an Arabic term. It was invented by Western Orientalists. The Arabic term for Islamic mysticism is "Tasawwuf." The word "Sufism" is being used here by us without being defined, so that each one of us is using it according to OUR understanding of the word. If you are using "Sufism" to mean mysticism in the general sense, fine. "Tasawwuf," however,cannot be divorced from Islam. This is an inalterable fact. This is not my opinion, but that of the great shaykhs throughout the ages. Tariqah and Shari`ah go hand in hand. I know this discussion has taken place before & I generally avoid getting involved in it because, as we have seen, it leads nowhere. But for those of you asking about the meaning of Tasawwuf, I urge you to read Kashf al-Mahjub by al-Hujwiri. With best wishes to all, Sincerely, Zaineb From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 8 03:21:19 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09022; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:23:11 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA17701; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:23:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08450; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:21:29 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA17519; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:21:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:21:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199604080321.XAA17519@europe.std.com> X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from ["Eolai" ] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Sun Apr 7 23:21:17 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA17515; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:21:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from halcyon.com (mail1.halcyon.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06863; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:17:31 -0400 Received: from [204.29.16.41] (blv-pm1-ip11.halcyon.com) by halcyon.com with SMTP id AA19447 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Sun, 7 Apr 1996 20:17:28 -0700 Message-Id: <199604080317.AA19447@halcyon.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Eolai" To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 20:17:18 +8 Subject: Near death experiences Reply-To: eolai@halcyon.com Cc: gnosis@netcom.com Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) I am a non-Muslim and physician researching the near death experiences reported (as far as I know among Christians) in which they enter a tunnel, see dead relatives, often see Jesus but return to tell of it. I admit I am a skeptic. But I never have heard of similar experiences among Muslims. Please correct me if I am wrong. If Muslims do have something akin to these experiences, what do they consist of? Do they experience God? I doubt that they would see Jesus unless it was in the context of other prophets as well. Or are these experiences solely the product of Christian conditioning? Thanks, Aindiachai Cladhaire ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "We need another and a wiser and perhaps a more mythical concept of animals.... We patronize them for their incompleteness, for their tragic fate of having taken form so far below ourselves. And therein we err, and greatly err. For the animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older and more complete than ours they moved finished and complete, gifted with extensions of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren, they are not underlings; they are other nations, caught with ourselves in the net of life and time, fellow prisoners of the splendor and travail of the earth." -Henry Beston, The Outermost House From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 8 02:13:16 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12263; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:33:32 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA16621; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:12:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA16613; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:12:29 -0400 (EDT) From: ennea@net-gate.com Received: from ns1.net-gate.com (inetgw-cwi.cwi.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03942; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:10:27 -0400 Received: from modem28.net-gate.com (modem28.net-gate.com [205.136.25.197]) by ns1.net-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA17016 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 22:13:16 -0400 Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 22:13:16 -0400 Message-Id: <199604080213.WAA17016@ns1.net-gate.com> X-Sender: ennea@mail.net-gate.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: wudu Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: >>I still hold to the argument that some rituals and practices are created >>for objective purposes >>that are not universally valid for all times and places. It seems that >>this major thought of >>my original post was overlooked and instead smaller statements were >>responded to. I would appreciate any feedback on this idea, especially >>regarding Islam. >> >>Sincerely, >>Mark Fenkner > >As-salaamu alaikum, > >How would one go about determining this? To make this assessment, would >you not need to have assimilated the rituals and practices and their >effects? To determine this, one would have to have objective consciouness where they can see the true effect that the ritual would have on an individual. It would not be necessary to take part in the ritual. A chemist will know what will happen if a particular element is added to a compound without having to try the experiment himself. Sincerely, Mark Fenkner From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 8 03:12:02 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13219; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:36:02 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA16600; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:12:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA16596; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:12:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netcom9.netcom.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04635; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:12:03 -0400 Received: by netcom9.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id XAA19798; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:12:02 -0400 Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:12:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Rahim Delawalla Subject: a line from Rumi To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A Dear Brothers and Sisters-- I am looking for a line from one of Rumi's poems. It says something like... my life is nothing but this trying to be in your Presence. I think it is one of the Coleman Barks translations, but I have no idea which one and which poem. Can someone let me know if they know where it is or if they run across it? Thank you. Rahim rahim@netcom.com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 8 04:17:36 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15160; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 00:44:04 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA22595; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 00:21:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA22585; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 00:21:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29433; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 00:17:37 -0400 Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA04375 for tariqas@world.std.com; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 00:17:36 -0400 Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 00:17:36 -0400 Message-Id: <960408001734_508093737@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: corrected posting on What is sufism? Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: hello all, There were some words that were missing in a recent posting of mine. I correct them here, to make this a bit clearer, for whatever it's worth. I had them in thought, but somehow they didn't get transformed into electronic units for the computer to forward! These are: (1) and the "you" should be: and the "we" you are asking then, (2) after: metaphors, and understandings I should add here to complete the thought: of the Islamic tradition. With these corrections made below, my post may make sense at least. sorry for this earlier what-turned-out-to-be-sloppy typing. I add some PSs to answer briefly some comments I've just seen from people replying to this earlier posting. in peace anyway, Jinavamsa and thank you. hello Jawad, Maarof, Maharaj Jim, and all, peace and greetings I will just reply to part of this posting. You ask (among other interesting questions) how we define sufi if it is not defined as a part of species of Islam. (I hope that's an accurate paraphrase). I do not define it (and the "we" you are asking here in this Tariqas@ community obviously represents a lot of varying viewpoints of such a question), but my impression is that one way to make sense of what a sufi is without so defining him/her, is to say that the sufi tradition is a mystical tradition using the teachings, writings, metaphors, and understandings of the Islamic tradition, including those making use of terms in the Arabic, Persian, and Urdu languages (primarily, speaking historically). In this way a Sufi might speak of union with Allah, understanding Allah as one way to try to put into language something that cannot. Other traditions know this same issue, and many are the attempts to try to point in words to the ineffable. In any case, I think there are possibilities here both of recognizing the special relation between Sufi teachings and the Islamic tradition without eliminating those also taken to be Sufis by clearly Islamic Sufi (or: Islamic and Sufi) writers and teachers. does that make sense, or is it repulsive (or both)? peace unto you and all creatures, Jinavamsa PS there is no significance in my capitalization above or in general, mostly. just depends on whether my thumb gets over to the caps/shift key as i type or not. PPS I take it from Persian and Afghani Sufis, that the term sufi itself is taken to be either from suf meaning wool or from saf meaning pure. PPPS Some historical information could be added about there being a number of turuq or tariqas, each establishing one or another tradition, and obviously that the Islamic conceptual scheme that is the primary one used by Sufis was formulated by Muhammad and other prophets of that [Islamic] tradition. (I didn't want to give an encyclopedic answer, just to start pointing in one way.) In a message dated 96-04-07 04:06:40 EDT, you write: >From: Jawad Qureshi >X-Sender: c640429@indy30.gclab.missouri.edu >To: tariqas@europe.std.com >cc: tariqas@world.std.com >Subject: Re: Inayat's Motive >In-Reply-To: <199603261753.BAA16234@relay3.jaring.my> >Message-ID: >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE > >On Wed, 27 Mar 1996 maarof@pc.jaring.my wrote: > >> Maharaj Jim said (among othe things)" >>=20 >> --------------------------------------------------- >> "It was Khan's position, as I understand it, that >> Sufism did not exist without Islam and that Islam >> did not exist without Sufism." >> --------------------------------------------------- >>=20 >> I am not very familiar with Inayat Khan. From a few=20 >> books that I read about sufism in general, I believe >> Inayat Khan was a sufi, and perhaps he was given a mission >> to teach Islam in the West. As a sufi, he has to "blend >> with the cultural environment" and spread the message of >> Islam. >>=20 >> I would appreciate any comment on this matter. >>=20 >> Best regards >>=20 >> Maarof >>=20 > >Salam,=20 > >Well, I must admit that there if this was his goal, he was far from=20 >successful; I mean, a good number of his followers don't even represent=20 >in the slightest even the most liberal forms of Islam. In the limited=20 >meetings that I have had with a few of them, they have told me that they=20 >really don't see the need for prayer, and their concepts of Allah (SWT)=20 >are ussually borrowed from different systems of belief (Hinduism,=20 >Buddhism) and they don't make any attempt to hide it even: they flat out= >=20 >admit that they mix and match what they want. =20 > >Now, to say that Islam can not exist without Sufism, this poses a=20 >problem: how do we define Sufism? When this is clearly defined, then we=20 >can make such claims. Do we define it as man becoming one with Allah? =20 >Is Sufism the path that one takes to purity? Is it the path to=20 >perfection of servitude? Is it to worship Allah AS IF we see Him? Is it= >=20 >to follow a saint? Is it to give allegiance to a Sufi Master? Is it to=20 >follow the Last of All Prophets - may Allah send his blessings and mercy=20 >on him? What is the definition of Sufism, and what reality of it do we=20 >follow? Many people will give a definition to satisfy the person that=20 >thy are talking to, but act totally different. When something like the=20 >above quote is said, the terms have to be understood. > >I too am not very familiar with Inayat Khan, and I don't mean to sound=20 >rude or disrespectful to him even. I have read a little bit of his=20 >material, but I can't say that I am well versed in his thinking. =E3 to: tariqas@europe.std.com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 8 07:59:31 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01290; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 04:13:43 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id DAA06508; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 03:59:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id DAA06503; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 03:59:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA29597; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 17:59:31 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 17:59:31 +1000 (EST) From: Dien Alfred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Sufism, sufism and Islam (Was Idries Shah) In-Reply-To: <199604061959.LAA26911@jobe.shell.portal.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum, On Sat, 6 Apr 1996, Haramullah wrote: > |From: Dien Alfred Rice > |Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 08:47:21 +1000 (EST) > > |...if you look at the classical Sufis (who Shah himself praises, such as > |Jalaluddin Rumi, Ibn Arabi, and al-Ghazali), you will see that Sufism > |and Islam are connected (I follow the viewpoint that Sufism is the "inner > |dimension" of Islam). > > I have heard that Rumi was Hindu. Is this accurate? I am sure there is no truth to this. I have read (here and there) much from the Mathnawi, the Divan, and the Fihi ma Fihi, and I have never read anything to suggest that. His father, Bahauddin, was also a Sufi Shaykh, and when Rumi was young they migrated from part of present-day Afghanistan to present-day Turkey. As a young man, Rumi was an Islamic scholar, who used to give public speeches on "ordinary" Islamic topics. It was only after he met Shams ud-Din Tabriz, I understand, that he began his outpouring of Sufi poetry. Shams ud-Din Tabriz, however, is a somewhat mysterious figure, about whose background we know very little. I am sure Hinduism (which I have not studied) has its own spiritual brilliance.... I think much on the truths within Hinduism has been written by people on the Sufi path, such as Rene Guenon and Frithjof Schuon. > quote of Rumi: > | The Way involves avoiding certain foods and consuming certain > | remedies on the basis of this theory. Then the Truth is > | to find everlasting health and to have no more need for > | theory and practice. > > How can we discern when we've found this? This is something for a Shaykh to answer - not me! > Note that Hermetic Orders latch on to this notion of 'everlasting health' > in regards the 'Universal Medicine' (cf OTO, of which I am a member, > which has as its thematic and/or mystical claims, the contention that this > ancient alchemical secret is maintained by its upper levels; it would not > surprise me if this was also a Sufic claim). I am skeptical about Crowley's claim to any spirituality - even his followers don't seem to like him, at least some that I spoke to. I would not be surprised, though, if there is some Sufi influence in the OTO, since I think Crowley seemed to take a lot of influences from everywhere.... (but I have not studied Crowley's writings much, most of the little I know is from people who follow Crowley to differing degrees). I did speak to a "priestess" and a "priest" of the Ordo Templi Orientis (OTO) once.... they both told me that Crowley was not a nice person, but that he was intellectually brilliant. I personally would prefer to follow someone who I thought was a good example for me to follow.... Some would say Hitler was intellectually brilliant in his own way too (especially politically), but that doesn't mean I would necessarily want to follow him.... Peace, Farid ud-Dien Rice From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 8 15:15:43 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28058; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:41:59 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA05508; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:15:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from sgi14.phlab.missouri.edu by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA05489; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:15:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from c640429@localhost) by sgi14.phlab.missouri.edu (8.7.4/8.7.1) id KAA24732; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 10:15:43 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 10:15:43 -0500 (CDT) From: Jawad Qureshi X-Sender: c640429@sgi14.phlab.missouri.edu To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Sufism, sufism and Islam (Was Idries Shah) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Salam, Regarding Rumi being a Hindu, that is FAR FAR from the truth: Mawlana was a Muslim Qadi, a judge, in Islamic Law, the Shariah, and it was later (after meeting Shams) that he started his study of zuhud. Through and through, he was a Muslim. Please read Abul Hasan Ali Nadwi's tratise on Mawlana in "Saviors of the Islamic Spirit Vol. 2". Salam, Jawad. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 8 17:07:58 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21358; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:53:26 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA14199; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:11:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA14187; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:11:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net (mosconi.worldweb.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15328; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:05:45 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id MAA25308 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:05:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.167]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:18:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960408170758.0030d97c@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 13:07:58 -0400 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Ten Sufi thoughts Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Brothers and Sisters, These past weeks have been most interesting on Tariqas and what has been written here is quite impressive. Having visited the ftp site of Haramullah, savored Jinavamsa's open and loving view, tasted the sweetness of Jabriel and Rabia, seen the wisdom and openness of Habib and the many who come to Sufism from the Islamic viewpoint (let's not deny that Sufism flourished and has also been persecuted under Islam) it has occurred to me that under all the different veils lies one basic way of viewing existence, The Sufi way. Although labels denoting conservatism or liberalism mean nothing to a true Sufi, for purposes of discussion it could be said this group is most interesting when it seesaws between these factions, seeking and often finding balance. Sufism is about training the personality and the mind. My proposal is that we now turn the discussion from some of the obvious and unimportant differences between our views and search for what is common between us. In this rich vein we are sure to mine some gems worth finding. In the final analysis the quality of our Sufism depends first upon what we think and second, upon how our thoughts bring us to act. Hazrat Inayat Khan, in THE WAY OF ILLUMINATION has put forward the proposition that there are "ten principal Sufi thoughts, which comprise all the important subjects with which the inner life of man is concerned." My thought is to post his descriptions of these ten thoughts here and see if it forms the basis for a new line of discussion. Perhaps those who oppose the Universal Sufi approach will find ways to improve on this way of thinking and give insight into their way and possibly add to these original with further important thoughts which the Sufi should hold in his mind. It is possible to accept and understand the belief of another, even if it is contrary to one's own conviction and I have surely come to a richer understanding because of the articulate expressions of various viewpoints in this wonderful group. ONE 'There is One God, the Eternal, the Only Being; none exists save He.' "The God of the Sufi is the God of every creed, and the God of all. Names make no difference to him. Allah, God, Gott, Dieu, Brahma, or Bhagwan, all these names and more are the names of his God; and yet to him God is beyond the limitation of name. He sees his God in the sun, in the fire, in the idol which diverse sects worship; and he recognizes Him in all the forms of the universe, yet knowing Him to be beyond all form: God in all, and all in God, He being the Seen and the Unseen, the Only Being. God to the Sufi is not only a religious belief, but also the highest ideal the human mind can conceive. The Sufi, forgetting the self and aiming at the attainment of the divine ideal, walks constantly all through life in the path of love and light. In God the Sufi sees the perfection of all that is in the reach of man's perception and yet he knows Him to be above human reach. He looks to Him as the lover to his beloved. and takes all things in life as coming from Him, with perfect resignation. The sacred name of God is to him as medicine to the patient. The divine thought is the compass by which he steers the ship to the shores of immortality. The God-ideal is to a Sufi as a lift by which he raises himself to the eternal goal, the attainment of which is the only purpose of his life." Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 8 17:01:42 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10449; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 13:40:32 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id NAA21684; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 13:05:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id NAA21672; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 13:05:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from homer01.u.washington.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26710; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 13:01:45 -0400 Received: from localhost by homer01.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW96.03/UW-NDC Revision: 2.33 ) id AA72267; Mon, 8 Apr 96 10:01:43 -0700 Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 10:01:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Lilyan Ila To: tariqasnet Subject: Sufism and Tassawuf In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A asalaam-u-aleikum Bless you for this much needed clarification! Now I am wondering, what is the difference between Sufism outside of Islam and gnosticism/mysticism? Why do those who wish to be Sufis without being Muslims gravitate toward Arabic names and selective Islamic practices to a greater extent than those of other traditions? Lily On Sun, 7 Apr 1996, Zaineb Istrabadi wrote: > Assalamu alaykum, Everyone. Sufism is not an Arabic term. It was > invented by Western Orientalists. The Arabic term for Islamic mysticism > is "Tasawwuf." The word "Sufism" is being used here by us without being > defined, so that each one of us is using it according to OUR understanding > of the word. If you are using "Sufism" to mean mysticism in the general > sense, fine. "Tasawwuf," however,cannot be divorced from Islam. This is > an inalterable fact. This is not my opinion, but that of the great > shaykhs throughout the ages. Tariqah and Shari`ah go hand in hand. I > know this discussion has taken place before & I generally avoid getting > involved in it because, as we have seen, it leads nowhere. But for those > of you asking about the meaning of Tasawwuf, I urge you to read Kashf > al-Mahjub by al-Hujwiri. > > With best wishes to all, > > Sincerely, > Zaineb > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 8 19:02:58 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16619; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:45:22 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA07950; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:06:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA07942; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:06:43 -0400 (EDT) From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Received: from relay3.jaring.my by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17730; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:03:04 -0400 Received: from 161.142.2.138 (j12.brf10.jaring.my [161.142.2.138]) by relay3.jaring.my (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id DAA22242 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 03:02:58 +0800 (MYT) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 03:02:58 +0800 (MYT) Message-Id: <199604081902.DAA22242@relay3.jaring.my> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Afterthought (Inayat's Motive) To: tariqas@world.std.com X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: It was enlightning to read various feedbacks especially on Pir O Murshid Hazrat Inayat Khan's mission in the West. Although I am a born Muslim, it was through reading books and discussion on Tasawuf (Sufism) that created my awareness toward Islam. Islam as peceived in general (Muslims and non-Muslims) is generally associated with "harsh" codes Shariah Laws but its spiritual essence (revealed/exposed through sufism) brings out its glorious beauty. I see Islam as a cactus tree in the desert, with the Shariah as its physical appearance -- its thorns and hardy shape -- has its purpose in protecting the precious 'life' it holds inside in its harsh environment. Thank you friends in Tariqas, for you wonderful comments. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 8 20:29:58 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20740; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 17:15:52 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA19121; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 16:27:00 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA19094; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 16:26:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.146.43.55] by postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (8.6.9/5.901231) id QAA21356; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 16:26:56 -0400 X-Sender: qureshi.5@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:29:58 -0500 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: qureshi.5@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Omar Qureshi) Subject: Re: Afterthought (Inayat's Motive) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Salam, It seems as if your interpretation of the Shariah and it's relation ship to Tasawuf is interesting, but I think that it is rather generic and I highly disagree with you. The Shariah is the way that the Prophet (SAW) has taught us to get close to Allah(SWT). It is our only path for salvation, and all other doors have been closed and are not acceptable. If you were to read what the great Shaykhs of Islam say about the Shariah, I think that that will help you to understand. If you want, I can give the references to what Shaykh Junaid, Shaykh Ahmad Sirhindi, Imam Nawawi, Abu Talib alMakki, Bayazid Biatami, Jalaluddin Rumi, and many other rightly guided scholars have said about this. Many people have misconstrued this important topic. Before any should go further in his spiritual path, they should realise this very impt. point first then proceed. Some advice. Salam. Omar. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Mar 9 03:06:35 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16003; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 17:53:25 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA23937; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 17:03:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from case.cyberspace.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA23819; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 17:01:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bdaniel ([206.100.176.136]) by case.cyberspace.com (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 0-11430) with SMTP id AAA13423 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 13:59:49 -0700 Message-Id: <3140F5BB.39D4@cyberspace.com> Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 19:06:35 -0800 From: bdaniel@cyberspace.com (Brent Daniel) X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: an exquisite corpse Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A After monitoring this mailing list for a month or two I must observe that most of the postings regarding sufism, with the exception of Jabreil's poetry, read like comments on the dissection of a corpse. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 8 22:38:06 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07519; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:29:01 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA27792; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 17:35:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA27786; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 17:35:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id RAA27830 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 17:36:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.105]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 16:48:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960408223806.00302ac0@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 18:38:06 -0400 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: Afterthought (Inayat's Motive) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 03:29 PM 4/8/96 -0500, Omar Qureshi wrote: . If you were to >read what the great Shaykhs of Islam say about the Shariah, I think that >that will help you to understand. If you want, I can give the references to >what Shaykh Junaid, Shaykh Ahmad Sirhindi, Imam Nawawi, Abu Talib alMakki, >Bayazid Biatami, Jalaluddin Rumi Dear Omar and Sufi friends, When Rumi comes up in conversation, this little verse always jumps into my mind: "What is to be done O Moslems? for I do not recognize myself I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Gabr , nor Moslem. I am not of the East, nor of the West, nor of the land, nor of the sea; I am not of nature's mint, nor of the circling heavens. I am not of earth, nor of water, nor of air, nor of fire; I am not of the empyrean, nor of the dust, nor of existence, nor of entity. I am not of India, nor China, nor of Bulgaria, nor of Saqsin ; I am not of the kingdom of Iraqain, nor of the country of Khorasan . I am not of this world, nor of the next, nor of Paradise, nor of Hell; I am not of Adam, nor of Eve, nor of Eden and Rizwan . My place is the Placeless, my trace is the Traceless; 'Tis neither body nor soul, for I belong to the soul of the Beloved" Jallalludin Rumi Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 8 22:54:28 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09680; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:32:36 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA00124; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 17:52:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA00119; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 17:51:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id RAA27919 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 17:52:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.105]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 17:05:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960408225428.00386abc@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 18:54:28 -0400 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com, tariqas@facteur.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: an exquisite corpse Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 07:06 PM 3/8/96 -0800, Brent Daniel wrote: >After monitoring this mailing list for a month or two I must observe >that most of the postings regarding sufism, with the exception of >Jabreil's poetry, read like comments on the dissection of a corpse. Our death is our wedding with Eternity. What is the secret? "God is One." The sunlight splits when entering the windows of a house. This multiplicity exists in the cluster of grapes; It is not in the juice made from the grapes. For he who is living is the light of God, The death of a carnal soul is a blessing. Regarding him, say neither bad nor good, For he is gone beyond the good and the bad. Fix your eyes on God and do not talk about what is invisible, So that He may place another look in your eyes That no invisible or secret thing exists. But when the eye is turned toward the Light of God What thing could remain hidden under such Light? Although all light emanates from the Devine Light Don't call these lights "The Light of God"; It is the eternal light which is the Light of God, The ephemeral light is an attribute of the body and flesh. ...Oh God who gives the grace of Vision! The bird of vision is flying towards you with the wings of desire. RUMI (Mystic Odes 833) Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 8 22:41:33 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02304; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:13:17 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA06226; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:44:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA06217; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:44:04 -0400 (EDT) From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Received: from relay3.jaring.my by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14867; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:41:43 -0400 Received: from 161.142.2.174 (j16.brf8.jaring.my [161.142.2.174]) by relay3.jaring.my (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id GAA04452 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 06:41:33 +0800 (MYT) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 06:41:33 +0800 (MYT) Message-Id: <199604082241.GAA04452@relay3.jaring.my> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Iqra To: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Salam to Omar you stand on your mountain as a scholar i wandered the desert lost in the storm Can your books navigates my path while you look down with you sword flashing I look at the stars and the heaven as my guide From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 8 23:05:45 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17535; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:43:04 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA08806; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:05:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA08800; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:05:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gorplex.j51.com (j51.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27277; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:05:00 -0400 Received: (from zaineb@localhost) by gorplex.j51.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA11503; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:05:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:05:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Zaineb Istrabadi To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Iqra In-Reply-To: <199604082241.GAA04452@relay3.jaring.my> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaykum. Is this poem addressed to Hazret Omar ibn al-Khattab? With best wishes, Zaineb On Tue, 9 Apr 1996 maarof@pc.jaring.my wrote: > Salam to Omar > > you stand on your mountain > as a scholar > i wandered the desert > lost in the storm > > Can your books > navigates my path > while you look down > with you sword flashing > > I look at the stars > and the heaven > as my guide > > > > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 8 23:01:21 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17354; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:42:31 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA08667; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:04:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA08658; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:04:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gorplex.j51.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25253; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:00:36 -0400 Received: (from zaineb@localhost) by gorplex.j51.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id TAA11299; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:01:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:01:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Zaineb Istrabadi To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Afterthought (Inayat's Motive) In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960408223806.00302ac0@worldweb.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaykum. Very true what you quote below. But Hz. Rumi was a practicing Muslim. With best wishes, Zaineb On Mon, 8 Apr 1996, James McCaig wrote: > At 03:29 PM 4/8/96 -0500, Omar Qureshi wrote: > . If you were to > >read what the great Shaykhs of Islam say about the Shariah, I think that > >that will help you to understand. If you want, I can give the references to > >what Shaykh Junaid, Shaykh Ahmad Sirhindi, Imam Nawawi, Abu Talib alMakki, > >Bayazid Biatami, Jalaluddin Rumi > > Dear Omar and Sufi friends, > > When Rumi comes up in conversation, this little verse always jumps into my mind: > > "What is to be done O Moslems? for I do not recognize myself > I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Gabr , nor Moslem. > I am not of the East, nor of the West, nor of the land, nor of the sea; > I am not of nature's mint, nor of the circling heavens. > I am not of earth, nor of water, nor of air, nor of fire; > I am not of the empyrean, nor of the dust, nor of existence, nor of entity. > I am not of India, nor China, nor of Bulgaria, nor of Saqsin ; > I am not of the kingdom of Iraqain, nor of the country of Khorasan . > I am not of this world, nor of the next, nor of Paradise, nor of Hell; > I am not of Adam, nor of Eve, nor of Eden and Rizwan . > My place is the Placeless, my trace is the Traceless; > 'Tis neither body nor soul, for I belong to the soul of the Beloved" > > Jallalludin Rumi > > > Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington > Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore > United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi > > jmccaig@worldweb.net > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 9 00:20:14 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22753; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 20:49:17 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA17592; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 20:20:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from homer28.u.washington.edu by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA17570; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 20:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by homer28.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW96.03/UW-NDC Revision: 2.33 ) id AA145998; Mon, 8 Apr 96 17:20:14 -0700 Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 17:20:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Lilyan Ila To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: exquisite corpse In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Salaams Brent Long time no see! What a brilliant metaphor. Let's see, where does that leave you on the food chain... Lily From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 9 00:55:07 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15551; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 21:32:55 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA21524; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 20:56:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA21518; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 20:56:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Surfa.SineWave.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25358; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 20:54:19 -0400 Received: from gale (m-13.IP1.SineWave.com [206.13.48.45]) by Surfa.SineWave.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA19368 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 17:48:57 -0700 Message-Id: <3169B56B.6204@sinewave.com> Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 17:55:07 -0700 From: Gale X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Sufism Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A Dear ones in God, One of the difficulties I find plaguing these discussions to define Sufism is the ambiguity of language with respect to a cultural spiritual phenomenon arising in the historical milieu of the Islamic era (during which, by all textual accounts, Sufism derived its name), and a more vertical contention of Sufism as a state of realization irrespective of historical time. Thus we find these diverse opinions couched in one or the other of these two perspectives with various shades of overlap in between (e.g., for example, the opposite views of Junaid and al-Hallaj). And, of course, depending upon the degree of emphasis placed on one side or the other, the word Sufism will take on different degrees of absolute and/or relative meaning (i.e., either inseparable from Islam and its tenets, or Universal irrespective of religious affiliation). Yes, my personal orientation is with the latter, the universal perspective -- and who am I to question whether God led me in this direction or not? I find this view well defined in the words of Hazrat Inayat Khan: "When a person says, 'I am a Christan mystic, or a Jewish or a Muslim mystic,' he has not yet arrived at mysticism. Mysticism cannot be divided into different sects, and the one who says, 'My mysticism is different from yours' has not yet arrived there, for true mystics cannot differ. Because inner experiences cannot be changed, their experience is one and the same; all changes belong to the outer experiences of life. The further one progresses on the spiritual path, the more experiences one has which are similar to those of others in that advanced stage." Hazrat Inayat Khan happens to identify this mysticism beyond historical conditionings as Sufism  he could have named it anything or, in the words of my own pir in Kashmir, "If we call our path Sufism, weve killed it." Is this to be understood from that nameless essence of Sufism which is the final goal for all, or from a literal historical perspective? I am uncertain whether a final reconciliation between these two views will be reached soon on a broad scale. Nevertheless, I would hope that respect for each could be achieved through mutual dialogue. In my years of travel through the East, I do indeed find that the Sufi sects are far more exclusive and less eccumenical than the sects within other traditions. (Although, I must acknowledge the wonderful efforts and dedication of the International Assoc. of Sufism to promote such dialogue through its conferences as an important overdue start towards this end). Yet, in general, this has been an alarming experience, and even sad given the degree of tolerance and dialogue moving forward between the various schools of Buddhism, Christianity, and Judaism. I once organized a candlelight service for world peace in New Delhi near Nizamuddin Aulias dargah when all the turmoil between Hindus and Muslims was raging over the Ayodhya temple/majid, and invited people from all the traditions to participate. The local pirs wouldnt attend because my Buddhist monk friends were going to be represented. Ive also participated in large National Interfaith Conferences in India and have often found the representative Sufi teachers to be the least friendly and most removed from the spirit of the event  they arrive when it is their time to lecture, and race out the door when they finish. This, in my opinion, is pure religious bigotry and puffed-up spiritual pride, and it is very difficult for me to respect such individuals (regardless of the badges they wear) as representatives of their great forefathers/mothers in the Sufi tradition. It raises the question for me whether to find the Sufis, who are Sufis out of realization rather than historical conditioning, whether they may not be more plentiful outside the cultural tradition we call Sufism. Who is more the real Sufi, a rabbi like Zalman Schacter who prays at the tomb of Nizamuddin Aulia every time he visits India, or a Muslim shaykh who refuses outright to step in a house of worship other than his own? Each to her/his own definition, Ive only simply presented the one given to me. Blessings to you all, Nur Jemal Gale From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 9 02:19:25 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12822; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 22:57:34 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA01928; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 22:22:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA01523; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 22:19:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA24305; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:19:25 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:19:25 +1000 (EST) From: Dien Alfred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Sufism and Religion, HIKhan and his 'Sufi' (Was Inayat's Motive) In-Reply-To: <960407142359_186374099@emout09.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum, On Sun, 7 Apr 1996 Hafizullah@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 96-04-07 04:58:14 EDT, you write: > > >I would know why any think that HIKhan or IShah supported the contention > >that sufism was resident wholly within the religious of Islam. Please > >quote them if you are able to illustrate this. So far my research > >indicates the opposite. > > It doesn't get much clearer than this... The following is to be found in an > unpublished transcript of a talk given by Inayat Khan to his students and > only available to teachers within the groups initiatically descended from > HIK. In this series of papers (Sangatha I) Inayat Khan calls sufism > "...a school which existed even before Abraham, the father of three great > religions, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Those who know Sufism from > superficial writings, and, sometimes, from translations of the Arabic or > Persian literature, are apt to think that Sufism is the mystical side of > Islam. In reality, it is not true. Sufism existed before Mohammed, before > Jesus Christ, before Abraham. It is true that the mystics in the world of > Islam are Sufis, but that does not mean that Sufi means the mystic of Islam. > For instance, the green color is the national color of the Irish, but that > does not mean that everybody who dresses in green is from Ireland. The green > color existed even before people inhabited Ireland." Even Muslims accept that "Islam" (submission to God) existed before "Islam" (the historical religion transmitted through Prophet Muhammad) did. The Qur'an calls Jesus's disciples "Muslims" (3:52) and also Abraham was a "Muslim" (22:78). Clearly, "Christians" (like Jesus's disciples) and "Jews" (like Abraham) can be "Muslims." So can anyone, irrespective of the label they are associated with. So, of course "Sufism" existed before Muhammad; "Islam" also existed before the Prophet Muhammad lived on the earth as well. No Muslim who has studied the Qur'an would have any problem with this. Sufism started with the beginning of humanity - and so did Islam. What is much more important than any label, is the essence. Quibbling about labels can lead us away from the Source. ;1;1;0 Peace, Farid ud-Dien Rice From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 9 02:40:50 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21130; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:13:21 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA03887; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 22:40:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA03844; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 22:40:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA16437; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:40:50 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:40:50 +1000 (EST) From: Dien Alfred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Afterthought (Inayat's Motive) In-Reply-To: <199604081902.DAA22242@relay3.jaring.my> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A Assalamu alaikum, On Tue, 9 Apr 1996 maarof@pc.jaring.my wrote: > It was enlightning to read various feedbacks especially on Pir O Murshid Hazrat > Inayat Khan's mission in the West. Although I am a born Muslim, > it was through reading books and discussion on Tasawuf (Sufism) that > created my awareness toward Islam. Islam as peceived in general (Muslims and > non-Muslims) is generally associated with "harsh" codes Shariah Laws but its > spiritual essence (revealed/exposed through sufism) brings out its glorious > beauty. Traditional Islam is clear in its beauty! Unfortunately today there are movements which want to reduce Islam to just the shari`ah, and turn it into a hollow, empty shell, of only commands of what to do and what not to do, but with no spiritual depth. Unfortunately, too, it is these movements that get most of the media publicity (they make the news with their violent acts and their extremist views), and thus they define the average non-Muslim's impression of Islam. However, the majority of Muslims do not follow this view, but this viewpoint (the Salafi approach) is a big danger, since it is completely opposed to Tasawwuf (Sufism). One of their goals is to wipe Tasawwuf off of the face of the planet (this is not an exaggeration). However, as long as Allah wills, Tasawwuf will continue, and Islam will be a whole and spiritually deep religion, and not the spiritually hollow, empty shell these other people want. I find it strange that it seems some want to attack Sufism as part of Islam, especially when clearly, in general, the best known Sufis were Muslims. By attacking Tasawwuf in Islam like this, these non-Muslim "Sufis" are unwittingly helping the anti-Sufi movements wipe Tasawwuf out. It is an action they perform from lack of understanding and knowledge, because they do not yet perceive some of the inner dimensions of the shari`ah. Wassalam, Farid ud-Dien Rice From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 9 02:55:31 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29076; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:29:41 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA05491; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 22:55:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA05475; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 22:55:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA29983; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:55:31 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:55:31 +1000 (EST) From: Dien Alfred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Afterthought (Inayat's Motive) In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960408223806.00302ac0@worldweb.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum, On Mon, 8 Apr 1996, James McCaig wrote: > At 03:29 PM 4/8/96 -0500, Omar Qureshi wrote: > . If you were to > >read what the great Shaykhs of Islam say about the Shariah, I think that > >that will help you to understand. If you want, I can give the references to > >what Shaykh Junaid, Shaykh Ahmad Sirhindi, Imam Nawawi, Abu Talib alMakki, > >Bayazid Biatami, Jalaluddin Rumi > > Dear Omar and Sufi friends, > > When Rumi comes up in conversation, this little verse always jumps into my mind: > > "What is to be done O Moslems? for I do not recognize myself > I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Gabr , nor Moslem. > I am not of the East, nor of the West, nor of the land, nor of the sea; > I am not of nature's mint, nor of the circling heavens. > I am not of earth, nor of water, nor of air, nor of fire; > I am not of the empyrean, nor of the dust, nor of existence, nor of entity. > I am not of India, nor China, nor of Bulgaria, nor of Saqsin ; > I am not of the kingdom of Iraqain, nor of the country of Khorasan . > I am not of this world, nor of the next, nor of Paradise, nor of Hell; > I am not of Adam, nor of Eve, nor of Eden and Rizwan . > My place is the Placeless, my trace is the Traceless; > 'Tis neither body nor soul, for I belong to the soul of the Beloved" > > Jallalludin Rumi The meaning of this, as I understand it, is that labels mean nothing, compared to essence. True insight is to understand things deeper than just undertanding labels. Rumi made his teaching on the Shari`ah clear, in the Mathnawi, which I posted before (see Chittick's "The Sufi Path of Love", p. 10-11, or the Mathnawi, intro. to Book 5). In brief, Rumi said: The Law [Shari`ah] may be compared to learning the theory of medicine. The Way involves avoiding certain foods and consuming certain remedies ont he basis of this theory. The the Truth is to find everlasting health and to have no more need for theory and practice. This is the inner meaning of the Shari`ah. It is dangerous to criticize what you do not understand. It may not be the only path - God knows best - but it is certainly a legitimate path, and the specific path given to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be with him). Peace, Farid ud-Dien Rice From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 9 03:14:09 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05665; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:39:46 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA07768; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:14:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA07764; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:14:02 -0400 (EDT) From: ZIAulHUQ@aol.com Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA18966 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:14:09 -0400 Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:14:09 -0400 Message-Id: <960408231334_267181505@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: ***Questions on Dancing Dervishes**** Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Salaam, Being very interested in Mevalna, I am curious to know whom you are a student of. Blessings, Letif From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 9 02:46:54 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04734; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:38:08 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA06398; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:01:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA06373; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:01:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA30298; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:46:54 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:46:54 +1000 (EST) From: Dien Alfred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: an exquisite corpse In-Reply-To: <3140F5BB.39D4@cyberspace.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 8 Mar 1996, Brent Daniel wrote: > After monitoring this mailing list for a month or two I must observe > that most of the postings regarding sufism, with the exception of > Jabreil's poetry, read like comments on the dissection of a corpse. The Tao Te Ching says: Express yourself completely, then keep quiet. Be like the forces of nature: when it blows, there is only wind; when it rains, there is only rain; when the clouds pass, the sun shines through. (Ch. 23, Stephen Mitchell translation) Peace, Farid ud-Dien Rice From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 9 03:14:10 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08670; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:46:20 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA07795; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:14:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA07779; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:14:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA27950; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:14:11 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:14:10 +1000 (EST) From: Dien Alfred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism In-Reply-To: <199604062022.MAA28661@jobe.shell.portal.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 6 Apr 1996, Haramullah wrote: [...] > I looked. Here's a bit of what I found (*without* consulting > _The Sufis_!; this from _The Way of the Sufi_), though it does > not directly support my claim and I may have to resort to that > other book anyway): > > This brings us to another important Sufi projection, one which > causes bafflement -- and even rage -- in certain types of person, > but which should nevertheless be faced. It is the assertion that > when Sufic activity becomes concentrated at one point or in one > community in a very active and 'real' (not imitation) form, it > does so only for a limited time and for distinct purposes. It is > the type of person who says 'I want it here and now or not at all' > who dislikes this statement. Put in another way, the idea is that > no society is ever complete, neither are its needs exactly the same > as those of older societies. No Sufi sets up an institution > intended to endure. The outer form in which he imparts his ideas > is a transient vehicle, designed for local operation. That which > is perpetual, he says, is in another range. > > p. 33 > ----- > > Perhaps this 'other range' is that of Allah. This could be used to > support the notion that Sufism is not encompassed by Islam, of course. It is certainly not clear, if you wish to use it for that. Idries Shah may be adressing the fact that often the Sufi Shaykh will make the teaching appropriate to the student, depending on the student's condition. Tasawwuf is the deeper, inner dimention of Islam. To follow ordinary Islam, no Shaykh is needed. However, to obtain the inner dimension, usually one needs a Shaykh, and to take the student by the hand and lead her or him to the Source, the Shaykh has to take into account the student's condition. Of course, Sufism is also the inner dimension of every true religion.... The Qur'an says "And for every nation there is a messenger" (10:47), and implicit in this is that the message is essentially the same. I have also read, in Zen writings, the saying that Zen is the heart of religion. I have no problem accepting both the claims of Sufism and Zen as true. Peace, Farid ud-Dien Rice From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 9 05:41:49 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20547; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 01:02:20 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA16729; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 00:39:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA16723; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 00:39:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id AAA00663 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 00:39:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.122]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:52:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960409054149.003363fc@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 01:41:49 -0400 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com, tariqas@facteur.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: Afterthought (Inayat's Motive) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:55 PM 4/9/96 +1000, Dien Alfred Rice wrote: > >This is the inner meaning of the Shari`ah. It is dangerous >to criticize what you do not understand. Dear Farid ud-Dien What criticism do you see in the brief quote from Rumi? No criticism was implied or intended. It can be equally dangerous, or at least misleading, to impute motive or lack of understanding based upon another's selection of classical literature. My presumption is that since there are several stages of Islam, one of which is the aforementioned Shariat, the casual western observer might be forgiven for thinking that Rumi would have left the first stage (where God is presented as to be feared) and progressed through Tariqat, Haqiqat and Marefat, the abode of the Sufis. His freedom of expression and disdain for the rules is quite apparent in much of his writing and the message of spiritual liberty and freedom shines through continuously. Please also allow me to suggest that what the beloved Rumi meant to say is exactly what he said, that being his long suit. > >It may not be the only path - God knows best - but it is certainly >a legitimate path, and the specific path given to the Prophet >Muhammad (peace be with him). > Of course it is a legitimate path, not the only path and part of the path that was first written 50 years or so after it was revealed to Muhammad (peace be with him). Warm regards, Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 9 04:53:38 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23771; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 01:10:49 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA18274; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 00:55:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA18266; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 00:55:18 -0400 (EDT) From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Received: from relay3.jaring.my by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15687; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 00:53:49 -0400 Received: from 161.142.2.206 (j16.brf6.jaring.my [161.142.2.206]) by relay3.jaring.my (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id MAA07692 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:53:38 +0800 (MYT) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:53:38 +0800 (MYT) Message-Id: <199604090453.MAA07692@relay3.jaring.my> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Iqra (Zaineb) To: tariqas@world.std.com X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ------ On Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:05:45 Zaineb Istrabadi kind enough to ask the question: "Assalamu alaykum. Is this poem addressed to Hazret Omar ibn al-Khattab? With best wishes, Zaineb ---------------------------------- Of course not. It was meant to say "Thank You" to Bro. Omar Qureshi for his timely advice and and kindness to share his knowledge. Being not a scholar and not very learned in much of things I titled the posting: Iqra to remind myself God's First Commandment to Muhammad p.b.u.h and the muslims, about the importance of learning. I admit it was a poorly written "poem", Zaineb. Salam From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 9 05:56:12 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24692; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 01:15:18 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA18346; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 00:55:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA18332; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 00:55:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net (mosconi.worldweb.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15705; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 00:53:52 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id AAA00720 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 00:54:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.122]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 0:07:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960409055612.0030bc9c@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 01:56:12 -0400 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: second Sufi thought Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: II 'There is One Master, the Guiding Spirit of all Souls, Who constantly leads His followers towards the light.' The Sufi understands that although God is the source of all knowledge, inspiration, and guidance, yet man is the medium through which God chooses to impart His knowledge to the world. He imparts it through one who is a man in the eyes of the world, but God in his consciousness. It is the mature soul that draws blessings from the heavens, and God speaks through that soul. Although the tongue of God is busy speaking through all things, yet in order to speak to the deaf ears of many among us, it is necessary for Him to speak through the lips of man. He has done this all through the history of man, every great teacher of the past having been this Guiding Spirit living the life of God in human guise. In other words, their human guise consists of various coats worn by the same person, who appeared to be different in each. Shiva, Buddha, Rama, Krishna on the one side, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed on the other; and many more, known or unknown to history, always one and the same person. Those who saw the person and knew Him recognized Him in whatever form or guise; those who could only see the coat went astray. To the Sufi therefore there is only one Teacher, however differently He may be named at different periods of history, and He comes constantly to awaken humanity from the slumber of this life of illusion, and to guide man onwards towards divine perfection. As the Sufi progresses in this view he recognizes his Master, not only in the holy ones, but in the wise, in the foolish, in the saint and in the sinner, and has never allowed the Master who is One alone, and the only One who can be and who ever will be, to disappear from his sight. The Persian word for Master is Murshid. The Sufi recognizes the Murshid in all beings of the world, and is ready to learn from young and old, educated and uneducated, rich and poor, without questioning from whom he learns. Then he begins to see the light of Risalat, the torch of truth which shines before him in every being and thing in the universe. Thus he sees Rasul, his Divine Message Bearer, a living identity before him. Thus the Sufi sees the vision of God, the worshipped deity, in His immanence, manifest in nature, and life now becomes for him a perfect revelation both within and without. It is often for no other reason than clinging to the personality of their particular teacher, claiming for him superiority over other teachers, and degrading a teacher held in the same esteem by others, that people have separated themselves from one another, and caused most of the wars and factions and contentions which history records among the children of God. What the Spirit of Guidance is, can be further explained as follows: as in man there is a faculty for art, music, poetry and science, so in him is the faculty or spirit of guidance; it is better to call it spirit because it is the supreme faculty from which all the others originate. As we see that in every person there is some artistic faculty, but not everyone is an artist, as everyone can hum a tune but only one in a thousand is a musician, so every person possesses this faculty in some form and to a limited degree; but the spirit of guidance is found among few indeed of the human race. A Sanskrit poet says, 'Jewels are stones, but cannot be found everywhere; the sandal tree is a tree, but does not grow in every forest; as there are many elephants, but only one king elephant, so there are human beings all over the world, but the real human being is rarely to be found.' When we arise above faculty and consider the spirit of guidance, we shall find that it is consummated in the Bodhisatva, the spiritual teacher or divine messenger. There is a saying that the reformer is the child of civilization, but the prophet is its father. This spirit has always existed, and must always exist; and in this way from time to time the message of God has been given. Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 9 07:12:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21720; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 03:34:55 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id DAA27741; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 03:12:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id DAA27732; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 03:12:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Saturna.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0u6XbQ-000FbXC; Tue, 9 Apr 96 00:12 PDT Message-Id: Date: Tue, 9 Apr 96 00:12 PDT X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: Re: Sufism and Tassawuf Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: salaam-u-aleikum Liliy > >Why do those who wish to be Sufis without being Muslims gravitate toward >Arabic names and selective Islamic practices to a greater extent than >those of other traditions? > >Lily El Hum Du Lellah! May Arabic be learned and appreciated. How I love every Zoroastrian, Jew, Christian and Gnostic who claimes to be a Sufi, and who have brought me closer to my own roots being an American Arab. How I praise every women, man and child who with their hearts sing la illaha illillah! How I cherish those who took the mantle to insult, stole the jewels i.e. Fitzgerald or Emmerson and introduced one more thing in Europe wghich ultimately assisted in elliminating the prejudice against the Middle East and Central Ashia. And woe unto those Sisters and Brothers who call themselves Moslems and claim Sufism selfishly for Islam. Therer are as few real Moslems as there are Jews and Christians on this planet! Much less Saints which as far as I know are what Sufis are. And there classically speaking according to the latest news round up in Saudi Arabia and according to the Wahhabis no Saints in Islam. Let everyone express themselves with a full free self expression as we with poise and grace elliminate our utter arrogance. I have heard so many of my Brothers and Sisters knock the work of Pir Villiat or Samual Lewis and their mureeds because they were not Moslem. With the ignorance of thinking that their Master, that their Pir, that their Shayke was real and the other was not. What utter foolishness. How many people throughout the United States Canada and Europe have been brought to love parts at least of Islam through this message. There is a time for adab. There is a time for giving credit where credit is due. So my dearest Sister Lily what is the intention behind your question? Is it a question or is it a point. I believe that if you look closely it is a point. And like all human beings you and I have an ability to be callous. I suggest we ruthlesssly review this for ourselves. This really is true for me and if I am projecting please forgive me. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 9 07:22:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22636; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 03:39:55 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id DAA28318; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 03:22:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id DAA28308; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 03:22:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Saturna.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0u6XlR-000FbXC; Tue, 9 Apr 96 00:22 PDT Message-Id: Date: Tue, 9 Apr 96 00:22 PDT X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: Re: Iqra (Zaineb) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: >I admit it was a poorly written "poem", Zaineb. I loved your poem. Thank you. Jabreil ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 9 11:06:01 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01174; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:24:48 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id HAA07581; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:05:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id HAA07577; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:05:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA19836; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:06:01 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:06:01 +1000 (EST) From: Dien Alfred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Afterthought (Inayat's Motive) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 9 Apr 1996, I wrote (replying to James McCraig...) [...] > This is the inner meaning of the Shari`ah. It is dangerous > to criticize what you do not understand. I wish to apologize to James McCraig... he did not criticize the Shari`ah, and I misinterpreted his reply. Please forgive me. Wassalam, Farid ud-Dien Rice From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 9 13:28:14 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06802; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:44:26 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id HAA08595; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:25:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id HAA08585; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:25:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sale.cscs.fi.cnr.it by mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA16459; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:28:14 +0100 Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:28:14 +0100 Message-Id: <9604091328.AA16459@mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it> X-Sender: sale@risc.idg.fi.cnr.it X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: sale@mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it (sale@cscs.fi.cnr.it) Subject: Re: ***Questions on Dancing Dervishes**** Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > > >Greeting of Love and Peace >Assalaamu Alaikum > >Could anyone kindly provide me with some information in answer to the following >questions (presented to me by one of the students of the University of Helsinki): > >1. How and why dancing entered the Sufism? >2. Who were the first Sufis who practised dancing? >3. Why did the Rumi chose dancing? >4. Is there any symbolic meaning for certain movements in the >dancing of whirling dervishes? > >I will appreciate if some bibliography related to the above-mentioned questions >is also introduced. > >With thanks >Morteza >morteza.elmolhoda@helsinki.fi > > > > > Dear brother The first mutassawffin to Dance during the dhikr were Hadrat Mohammed (PH) and His Companions , in fact there are enough two famous hadiths about this, one of which you can find in the lovely book of Martin Lings "The prophet Mohammed",. In this above one of companions, whose now I do not remember the name started to dance for happyness listing the words of Rasullullah (PH), and He approved of it. I an other very famous Hadrat Umar ibn Khattab found The Holy Prophet dancing and saying "Allah" with the others Companions, He asked what about it, the Holy prophet (PH) said this is Dhrikr 'ullah. This is a sufficient replay for your three first questions! In Mevlevi Order the Sama (dance) is very worked out, each position means a letter of Arabic alphabet with peculiar inner secrets, you must ask more to some Muriddin of Mevleviya. Salam wa Baraka HAMZA NAJMUDDIN From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 9 11:37:26 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09689; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:55:03 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id HAA09128; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:37:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from severn.wash.inmet.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id HAA09124; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:37:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by severn.wash.inmet.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA17339; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:37:26 -0400 Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:37:26 -0400 From: dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton) Message-Id: <9604091137.AA17339@severn.wash.inmet.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: <3140F5BB.39D4@cyberspace.com> (bdaniel@cyberspace.com) Subject: Re: an exquisite corpse Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Brent Daniel writes: After monitoring this mailing list for a month or two I must observe that most of the postings regarding sufism, with the exception of Jabreil's poetry, read like comments on the dissection of a corpse. Ah, well. That will teach me. Dave Barton <*> dlb@wash.inmet.com )0( http://www.inmet.com/~dlb From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 9 12:07:52 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21238; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 08:25:47 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA10920; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 08:08:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA10916; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 08:08:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gorplex.j51.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13875; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 08:06:59 -0400 Received: (from zaineb@localhost) by gorplex.j51.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id IAA01328; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 08:07:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 08:07:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Zaineb Istrabadi To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Iqra (Zaineb) In-Reply-To: <199604090453.MAA07692@relay3.jaring.my> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaykum. Your poem was poorly read by me. I do not know if there is, by definition, a poorly written poem. With best wishes, Zaineb On Tue, 9 Apr 1996 maarof@pc.jaring.my wrote: > ------ > On Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:05:45 > Zaineb Istrabadi > kind enough to ask the question: > "Assalamu alaykum. Is this poem addressed to Hazret Omar ibn al-Khattab? > > With best wishes, > Zaineb > ---------------------------------- > Of course not. > > It was meant to say "Thank You" > to Bro. Omar Qureshi for his > timely advice and and kindness > to share his knowledge. > > > Being not a scholar and not > very learned in much of things > I titled the posting: Iqra > to remind myself God's First > Commandment to Muhammad p.b.u.h > and the muslims, about the importance > of learning. > > I admit it was a poorly written "poem", Zaineb. > > Salam > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 9 12:47:35 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11929; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 09:06:44 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA14006; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 08:45:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from mail.missouri.edu by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA13994; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 08:45:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 128.206.207.148 (mizzou-ts14-14.missouri.edu [128.206.207.148]) by mail.missouri.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA29198 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:45:39 -0500 Message-Id: <316A5C67.7AD3@showme.missouri.edu> Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 07:47:35 -0500 From: tim williams X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: an exquisite corpse References: <9604091137.AA17339@severn.wash.inmet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: David Barton wrote: > > Brent Daniel writes: > > After monitoring this mailing list for a month or two I must > observe that most of the postings regarding sufism, with the > exception of Jabreil's poetry, read like comments on the dissection > of a corpse. > > Ah, well. That will teach me. > > Dave Barton <*> > dlb@wash.inmet.com )0( > http://www.inmet.com/~dlb Yes! Excellent! A teaching corpse! Tim Williams twilliam@mail.coin.missouri.edu From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 9 14:05:21 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24781; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 09:27:34 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA15664; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 09:03:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA15656; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 09:03:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id JAA02743 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 09:03:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.188]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 8:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960409140521.00360698@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 10:05:21 -0400 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com, tariqas@facteur.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: Afterthought (Inayat's Motive) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Farid ud-Dien, Your gracious apaology is accepted with love, although none is required. We are all brothers and sisters here in conversation about deep felt convictions. Of course there will be some misunderstandings from time to time, but we all enter with good hearts, wouldn't you agree? Warmest regards, At 09:06 PM 4/9/96 +1000, Dien Alfred Rice wrote: > > >On Tue, 9 Apr 1996, I wrote (replying to James McCraig...) > >[...] > >> This is the inner meaning of the Shari`ah. It is dangerous >> to criticize what you do not understand. > >I wish to apologize to James McCraig... he did not criticize >the Shari`ah, and I misinterpreted his reply. > >Please forgive me. > >Wassalam, > >Farid ud-Dien Rice > > Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 9 15:02:27 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03796; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:32:09 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA23613; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:05:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA23580; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:05:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net (mosconi.worldweb.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13916; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:00:08 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id KAA03158 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:00:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.190]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 9:13:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960409150227.0038a158@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 11:02:27 -0400 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Third Sufi thought Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: III 'There is One Holy Book, the sacred manuscript of nature, the only scripture which can enlighten the reader.' Most people consider as sacred scriptures only certain books or scrolls written by the hand of man, and carefully preserved as holy, to be handed down to posterity as divine revelation. Men have fought and disputed over the authenticity of these books, have refused to accept any other book of similar character, and, clinging thus to the book and losing the sense of it, have formed diverse sects. The Sufi has in all ages respected all such books, and has traced in the Vedanta, Zendavesta, Kabah, Bible, Qur'an, and all other sacred scriptures, the same truth which he reads in the incorruptible manuscript of nature, the only Holy Book, the perfect and living model that teaches the inner law of life: all scriptures before nature's manuscript are as little pools of water before the ocean. To the eye of the seer every leaf of the tree is a page of the holy book that contains divine revelation, and he is inspired every moment of his life by constantly reading and understanding the holy script of nature. When man writes, he inscribes characters upon rock, leaf, paper, wood or steel; when God writes, the characters He writes are living creatures. It is when the eye of the soul is opened and the sight is keen that the Sufi can read the divine law in the manuscript of nature; and that which the teachers of humanity have taught to their followers was derived by them from the same source; they expressed what little it is possible to express in words, and so they preserved the inner truth when they themselves were no longer there to reveal it. Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 9 15:02:39 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09073; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:40:04 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA23646; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:05:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA23637; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:05:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net (mosconi.worldweb.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14033; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:00:20 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id KAA03174 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:00:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.190]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 9:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960409150239.0037e1b0@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 11:02:39 -0400 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Seventh Sufi thought Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: VII 'There is One Moral, the love which springs forth from self-denial and blooms in deeds of beneficence.' There are moral principles taught to mankind by various teachers, by many traditions, one differing from the other, which are like separate drops coming out of the fountain. But when we look at the stream, we find there is but one stream, although it turns into several drops on falling. There are many moral principles, just as many drops fall from one fountain; but there is one stream that is at the source of all, and that is love. It is love that gives birth to hope, patience, endurance, forgiveness, tolerance, and to all moral principles. All deeds of kindness and beneficence take root in the soil of the loving heart. Generosity, charity, adaptability, an accommodating nature, even renunciation, are the offspring of love alone. The great, rare and chosen beings, who for ages have been looked up to as ideal in the world, are the possessors of hearts kindled with love. All evil and sin come from the lack of love. People call love blind, but love in reality is the light of the sight. The eye can only see the surface; love can see much deeper. All ignorance is the lack of love. As fire when not kindled gives only smoke, but when kindled, the illuminating flame springs forth, so it is with love; it is blind when undeveloped, but, when its fire is kindled, the flame that lights the path of the traveller from mortality to everlasting life springs forth; the secrets of earth and heaven are revealed to the possessor of the loving heart, the lover has gained mastery over himself and others, and he not only communes with God but unites with Him. 'Hail to thee, then, O love, sweet madness! Thou who healest all our infirmities! Who art the physician of our pride and self conceit! Who art our Plato and our Galen!' says Rumi. Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 9 15:02:31 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09948; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:41:36 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA23691; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:05:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA23674; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net (mosconi.worldweb.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13955; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:00:11 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id KAA03166 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:00:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.190]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 9:13:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960409150231.0039451c@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 11:02:31 -0400 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Fifth Sufi thought Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: V 'There is One Law, the law of reciprocity, which can be observed by a selfless conscience, together with a sense of awakened justice.' Man spends his life in the pursuit of all that seems to him to be profitable for himself, and when so absorbed in self-interest in time he even loses touch with his own real interest. Man has made laws to suit himself,, but they are laws by which he can get the better of another. It is this that he calls justice, and it is only that which is done to him by another that he calls injustice. A peaceful and harmonious life with his fellow-men cannot be led until the sense of justice has been awakened in him by a selfless conscience. As the judicial authorities of the world intervene between two persons who are at variance, knowing that they have a right to intervene when the two parties in dispute are blinded by personal interest, so the Almighty Power intervenes in all disputes however small or great. It is the law of reciprocity which saves man from being exposed to the higher powers, as a considerate man has less chance of being brought before the court. The sense of justice is awakened in a perfectly sober mind; that is, one which is free from the intoxication of youth, strength, power, possession, command, birth, or rank. It seems a net profit when one does not give but takes, or when one gives less and takes more; but in either case there is really a greater loss than profit; for every such profit spreads a cover over the sense of justice within, and when many such covers have veiled the sight, man becomes blind even to his own profit. It is like standing in one's own light. 'Blind here remains blind in the hereafter.' Although the different religions, in teaching man how to act harmoniously and peacefully with his fellow-men, have given out different laws, they all meet in this one truth: do unto others as thou wouldst they should do unto thee. The Sufi, in taking a favor from another, enhances its value, and in accepting what another does to him he makes allowance. Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 9 15:02:34 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13009; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:45:29 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA23703; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:05:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA23684; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:05:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net (mosconi.worldweb.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14027; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:00:19 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id KAA03170 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:00:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.190]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 9:13:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960409150234.0039e114@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 11:02:34 -0400 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Sixth Sufi thought Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: VI 'There is One Brotherhood, the human brotherhood which unites the children of earth indiscriminately in the Fatherhood of God.' The Sufi understands that the one life emanating from the inner Being is manifested on the surface as the life of variety; and in this world of variety man is the finest manifestation, for he can realize in his evolution the oneness of the inner being even in the external existence of variety. But he evolves to this ideal, which is the only purpose of his coming on earth, by uniting himself with another. Man unites with others in the family tie, which is the first step in his evolution, and yet families in the past have fought with each other, and have taken vengeance upon one another for generations, each considering his cause to be the only true and righteous one. Today man shows his evolution in uniting with his neighbors and fellow-citizens, and even developing within himself the spirit of patriotism for his nation. He is greater in this respect than those in the past; and yet men so united nationally have caused the catastrophe of the modern wars, which will be regarded by the coming generations in the same light in which we now regard the family feuds of the past. There are racial bonds which widen the circle of unity still more, but it has always happened that one race has looked down on the other. The religious bond shows a still higher ideal. But it has caused diverse sects, which have opposed and despised each other for thousands of years, and have caused endless splits and divisions among men. The germ of separation exists even in such a wide scope for brotherhood, and however widespread the brotherhood may be, it cannot be a perfect one as long as it separates man from man. The Sufi, realizing this, frees himself from national, racial, and religious boundaries, uniting himself in the human brotherhood, which is devoid of the differences and distinctions of class, caste, creed, race, nation, or religion, and unites mankind in the universal brotherhood. Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 9 14:17:26 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19559; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:53:53 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA25578; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:17:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from homer25.u.washington.edu by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA25513; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:17:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by homer25.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW96.03/UW-NDC Revision: 2.33 ) id AA122314; Tue, 9 Apr 96 07:17:26 -0700 Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:17:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Lilyan Ila To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Sufism and Tassawuf In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > > salaam-u-aleikum Liliy wa aleikum asalaam Jabriel > > > >Why do those who wish to be Sufis without being Muslims gravitate toward > >Arabic names and selective Islamic practices to a greater extent than > >those of other traditions? > > > >Lily > > > El Hum Du Lellah! May Arabic be learned and appreciated. How I love every > Zoroastrian, Jew, Christian and Gnostic who claimes to be a Sufi, clip in interest of space saving > > So my dearest Sister Lily what is the intention behind your question? Is it > a question or is it a point. It was a question - I have wondered about this for many years. I believe that if you look closely it is a > point. And like all human beings you and I have an ability to be callous. > I suggest we ruthlesssly review this for ourselves. This really is true for > me and if I am projecting please forgive me. OK, you're forgiven. I am still curious. Lily From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 9 15:02:29 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20481; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:55:41 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA23550; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:04:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA23546; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:04:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net (mosconi.worldweb.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13942; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:00:11 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id KAA03162 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:00:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.190]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 9:13:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960409150229.0038e424@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 11:02:29 -0400 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Fourth Sufi thought Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: IV 'There is One Religion, the unswerving progress in the right direction towards the ideal, which fulfills the life's purpose of every soul.' Religion in the Sanskrit language is termed Dharma, which means duty. The duty of every individual is religion. 'Every soul is born for a certain purpose, and the light of that purpose is kindled in his soul', says Sa'adi. This explains why the Sufi in his tolerance allows every one to have his own path, and does not compare the principles of others with his own, but allows freedom of thought to everyone, since he himself is a freethinker. Religion, in the conception of a Sufi, is the path that leads man towards the attainment of his ideal, worldly as well as heavenly. Sin and virtue, right and wrong, good and bad are not the same in the case of every individual; they are according to his grade of evolution and state of life. Therefore the Sufi concerns himself little with the name of the religion or the place of worship. All places are sacred enough for his worship, and all religions convey to him the religion of his soul. 'I saw Thee in the sacred Ka'ba and in the temple of the idol also Thee I saw.' Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 9 15:30:42 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04759; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:06:41 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA11083; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 11:30:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA11074; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 11:30:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Hafizullah@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA25458 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 11:30:42 -0400 Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 11:30:42 -0400 Message-Id: <960409113041_372036439@mail04> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Sufism and Tassawuf Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 96-04-08 13:06:17 EDT, you write: >Now I am wondering, what is the difference between Sufism outside of Islam >and gnosticism/mysticism? I would submit that there is a discernably sufic thread that distinguishes a sufi school from other gnostic or mystical schools. There may be more, but these traits, taken together, come to mind: * An emphasis on an holistic, adualistic and embodied spirituality, rather than the transcendent sort ("Let's get the hell off this rock") approach typified by the traditional (dualistic) yogas et al. Along with this goes the philosophical (and ultimately experiential) stance that God is the subject and creation is the object, and the whole host of implications following from that * Some form of Tasawwuri Murshid * Some form of zikr, whatever be the outward formula >Why do those who wish to be Sufis without being Muslims gravitate toward >Arabic names and selective Islamic practices to a greater extent than >those of other traditions? Sometimes this approach is applied by Muslim Sufi teachers who do not themselves require their students to become (outwardly) practicing Muslims. Suleyman Dede, the late Konya Shaikh of the Mevlevi, was one such. Shaikh Bulent Rauf was another, and there is Pir Zahumiat in India, the head of two sufi Orders, who has students who are Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Christian, and Parsi. I suspect that sometimes there is (selective) use of Arabic/Persian names and practices because you can only teach what you know. Another is that there is enormous barakat embodied in many of the traditional practices, and it would be foolish to not avail onself of that, if your goal is to lift your students as high as possible as fast as possible. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 10 01:08:09 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10556; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:37:02 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id VAA12498; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:08:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from homer16.u.washington.edu by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id VAA12479; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:08:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by homer16.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW96.03/UW-NDC Revision: 2.33 ) id AA31507; Tue, 9 Apr 96 18:08:09 -0700 Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 18:08:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Lilyan Ila To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Sufism and Tassawuf In-Reply-To: <960409113041_372036439@mail04> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: asalaam-u-aleikum Thank you Hafizullah for your thought provoking response to my question - it is the first time I have received a civil response to it. I wonder why it is that some people feel justified in characterizing the sacraments of a major world religion as useless and obsolete, yet become incensed at a neutrally stated question about their own practices. > > I would submit that there is a discernably sufic thread that distinguishes a > sufi school from other gnostic or mystical schools. > There may be more, but these traits, taken together, come to mind: > * An emphasis on an holistic, adualistic and embodied spirituality, rather > than the transcendent sort ("Let's get the hell off this rock") approach > typified by the traditional (dualistic) yogas et al. Along with this goes the > philosophical (and ultimately experiential) stance that God is the subject > and creation is the object, and the whole host of implications following from > that Is this not the case with Jewish mysticism? Or am I missing the point - I am very ignorant on these topics. > * Some form of Tasawwuri Murshid > * Some form of zikr, whatever be the outward formula If I am not mistaken, these are some of those practices which I refer to below as Islamic in my second question. > > >Why do those who wish to be Sufis without being Muslims gravitate toward > >Arabic names and selective Islamic practices to a greater extent than > >those of other traditions? > Sometimes this approach is applied by Muslim Sufi teachers who do not > themselves require their students to become (outwardly) practicing Muslims. > Suleyman Dede, the late Konya Shaikh of the Mevlevi, was one such. Shaikh > Bulent Rauf was another, and there is Pir Zahumiat in India, the head of two > sufi Orders, who has students who are Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Christian, and > Parsi. > > I suspect that sometimes there is (selective) use of Arabic/Persian names and > practices because you can only teach what you know. Another is that there is > enormous barakat embodied in many of the traditional practices, and it would > be foolish to not avail onself of that, if your goal is to lift your students > as high as possible as fast as possible. Am I reading more into this, or does this imply that in order to reach the station of Murshid, one must be a Muslim? And if so, does this fact not imply that those who wish to be Sufis without embracing Islam are unable to advance beyond a certain point? Also, is being a Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Christian or Parsi murid who disciplines onesself according to the teachings of his/her path the same as being a murid who rejects all traditional forms? Lily From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 10 03:27:19 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13031; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:30:16 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA24844; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 22:58:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA24832; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 22:58:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net (mosconi.worldweb.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28193; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 22:57:45 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id WAA08994 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 22:58:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.185]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:38:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960410032719.00332998@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 23:27:19 -0400 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Tenth Sufi thought Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Sisters and Brothers, This is the final in this series. Thank you for your attention and comments. Warm regards, Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 10 03:27:16 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18589; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:42:37 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA26304; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:11:00 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA26300; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net (mosconi.worldweb.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04938; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:09:58 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id XAA09194 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:10:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.185]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:38:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960410032716.00321ae4@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 23:27:16 -0400 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Ninth Sufi thought Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: IX 'There is One Truth, the true knowledge of our being, within and without, which is the essence of all wisdom.' Hazrat All says, 'Know thyself, and thou shalt know God.' It is the knowledge of self which blooms into the knowledge of God. Self-knowledge answers such problems as: whence have I come? Did I exist before I became conscious of my present existence? If I existed, as. what did I exist? As an individual such as I now am, or as a multitude, or as an insect, bird, animal, spirit, jinn, or angel? What happens at death, the change to which every creature is subject? Why do I tarry here awhile? What purpose have I to accomplish here? What is my duty in life? In what does my happiness consist, and what is it that makes my life miserable? Those whose hearts have been kindled by the light from above, begin to ponder such questions but those whose souls are already illumined by the knowledge of the self understand them. It is they who give to individuals or to the multitudes the benefit of their knowledge, so that even men whose hearts are not yet kindled, and whose souls are not illuminated, may be able to walk on the right path that leads to perfection. This is why people are taught in various languages, in various forms of worship, in various tenets in different parts of the world. It is one and the same truth; it is only seen in diverse aspects appropriate to the people and the time. It is only those who do not understand this who can mock at the faith of another, condemning to hell or destruction those who do not consider their faith to be the only true faith. The Sufi recognizes the knowledge of self as the essence of all religions; he traces it in every religion, he sees the same truth in each, and therefore he regards all as one. Hence he can realize 'the saying of Jesus, 'I and my Father are one.' The difference between creature and Creator remains on his lips, not in his soul. This is what is meant by union with God. It is in reality the dissolving of the false self in the knowledge of the true self, which is divine, eternal, and all-pervading. 'He who attaineth union with God, his very self must lose,' said Amir. Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 10 03:34:21 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19073; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:44:00 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA26038; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:09:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA26026; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:09:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net (mosconi.worldweb.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03820; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:07:24 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id XAA09136 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:07:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.185]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:45:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960410033421.0032e7fc@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 23:34:21 -0400 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Tenth Sufi thought (corrected) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Sorry for the mistake! Dear Sisters and Brothers, This is the final in this series. Thank you for your attention and comments. Warm regards, X 'There is One Path, the annihilation of the false ego in the real, which raises the mortal to immortality, in which resides all perfection.' 'I passed away into nothingness--I vanished; and lo! I was all living.' All who have realized the secret of life understand that life is one, but that it exists in two aspects. First as immortal, all-pervading and silent; and secondly as mortal, active, and manifest in variety. The soul being of the first aspect becomes deluded, helpless, and captive by experiencing life in contact with the mind and body, which is of the next aspect. The gratification of the desires of the body and the fancies of the mind do not suffice for the purpose of the soul, which is undoubtedly to experience its own phenomena in the seen and the unseen, though its inclination is to be itself and not anything else. When delusion makes it feel that it is helpless, mortal and captive, it finds itself out of place. This is the tragedy of life, which keeps the strong and the weak, the rich and poor, all dissatisfied, constantly looking for something they do not know. The Sufi, realizing this, takes the path of annihilation, and, by the guidance of a teacher on the path, finds at the end of this journey that the destination was himself. As Iqbzl says: 'I wandered in the pursuit of my own self; I was the traveller, and I am the destination.' Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 10 03:27:14 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22190; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:50:47 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA26024; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:09:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA26019; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:09:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net (mosconi.worldweb.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03799; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:07:18 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id XAA09132 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:07:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.185]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:38:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960410032714.0030c934@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 23:27:14 -0400 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Eighth Sufi thought Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: VIII 'There is One Object of Praise, the beauty which uplifts the heart of its worshippers through all aspects from the seen to the unseen.' It is said in the Hadith, 'God is beautiful, and He loves beauty.' This expresses the truth that man, who inherits the Spirit of God, has beauty in him and loves beauty, although that which is beautiful to one is not beautiful to another. Man cultivates the sense of beauty as he evolves, and prefers the higher aspect of beauty to the lower. But when he has observed the highest vision of beauty in the Unseen by a gradual evolution from praising the beauty in the seen world, then the entire existence becomes to him one single vision of beauty. Man has worshipped God, beholding the beauty of sun, moon, stars, and planets; he has worshipped God in plants, in animals; he has recognized God in the beautiful merits of man, and he has with his perfect view of beauty found the source of all beauty in the Unseen, from whence all this springs, and in Whom all is merged. The Sufi, realizing this, worships beauty in all its aspects, and sees the face of the Beloved in all that is seen, and the Beloved's spirit in the Unseen. So wherever he looks his ideal of worship is before him. 'Everywhere I look, I see Thy winning face; everywhere I go, I arrive at Thy dwelling-place.' Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 10 05:58:51 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20406; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 02:29:19 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id BAA12242; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 01:58:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id BAA12233; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 01:58:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Hafizullah@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA09907 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 01:58:51 -0400 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 01:58:51 -0400 Message-Id: <960410015850_466350109@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Sufism and Tassawuf Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 96-04-09 21:11:41 EDT, lilyan@u.washington.edu writes: >Thank you Hafizullah for your thought provoking response to my question - >it is the first time I have received a civil response to it. That saddens me. >> I suspect that sometimes there is (selective) use of Arabic/Persian names >and >> practices because you can only teach what you know. Another is that there >is >> enormous barakat embodied in many of the traditional practices, and it >would >> be foolish to not avail onself of that, if your goal is to lift your >students >> as high as possible as fast as possible. > >Am I reading more into this, or does this imply that in order to reach the >station of Murshid, one must be a Muslim? And if so, does this fact not >imply that those who wish to be Sufis without embracing Islam are unable >to advance beyond a certain point? In my opinion -- carefully labeled as such, since I'm not a murshid and therefore cannot speak authoritatively -- that the station of a real murshid IS being a true Muslim -- inwardly -- regardless of how s/he got there. Whether or not his/her outward forms follow the usual prescription is, I feel, not so relevant, since it is the inward nearness to Allah that is the distinguishing and active factor. >Also, is being a Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Christian or Parsi murid who >disciplines onesself according to the teachings of his/her path the same >as being a murid who rejects all traditional forms? I think (opinion again) that it would depend on whether the murid is rejecting or embracing forms out of real freedom or compelled to do so by their nafs. One must remember that in our inner "ship of fools," the subpersonality at the helm is not always the one holding the microphone. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 10 23:12:11 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10574; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 04:16:22 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id DAA20236; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 03:58:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id DAA20230; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 03:58:38 -0400 (EDT) From: aorsellidickson@stingray.ac.cowan.edu.au Received: from eagle.ac.cowan.edu.au by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08309; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 03:56:17 -0400 Received: from stingray.ac.cowan.edu.au (stingray.ac.cowan.edu.au [139.230.161.10]) by eagle.ac.cowan.edu.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA11962 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:54:13 +0800 Message-Id: <199604100754.PAA11962@eagle.ac.cowan.edu.au> X-Nvlenv-01Date-Posted: 10-Apr-1996 15:59:23 -0400; at STINGRAY.ac.cowan X-Nvlenv-Content-Subject: sama X-Nvlenv-Mts-Message-Id: E3126C31816C2979 X-Nvlenv-Notify-On-Read: allowed X-Nvlenv-Notify-On-Refusal: allowed X-Nvlipm-Non-Standard: SMF = 000Application-name: PMAIL To: tariqas%world.std.com@stingray.ac.cowan.edu.au Subject: sama Date: 10 Apr 96 23:12:11 GMT X-Nvlipm-Non-Standard: SMF = 000X-NetWare-UIC: AORSELLIDICKSON Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A dear Hafizullah, thank you from the deepest of my heart for the knowledge you shared with us about the "turn". I have become a muslim and a dervish (though not a mevlev) mostly because I responded to the sama. I dreamed about it and I followed my dream, and saw it once in London, then in Konya and finally in Instanbul in the old dargah( now a museum of traditional music) For years I tried to find out more about the inner meaning of the movements and the prayer( it is a form of moving prayer), but nobody ever came so close as you to an explanation. ...now my question, as a woman and a dervish of another order: can I learn to turn using purely my own intuition, or do I need learning from a mevlev teacher such as you? I have seen women turning in London ( the tariqa had permission from Konya to do so, it was not a non muslim self taught tariqa), but I would like to know if this is done also in other communities. Is it bad adab to desire to know more about ? I have received a mysterious card from Konya some time ago, and I plan to go there (if God wills so) for one day,(probably Firday ) next September,after seeing my Sheikh in Instanbul. What is the day for the dhikr ? I understand the purpose of doing the sama is not selfish gratification, and I would like to be able to contribute to the dissemination of higher energies onto this corner of the planet, if this vessel of mine can possibly do so, not because of any worth of mine, but because of the mercy of HU. Salaam wa barakatu Rabia From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 10 13:29:56 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22681; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:08:37 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id HAA28238; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 07:28:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id HAA28190; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 07:27:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sale.cscs.fi.cnr.it by mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA17996; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:29:56 +0100 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:29:56 +0100 Message-Id: <9604101329.AA17996@mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it> X-Sender: sale@risc.idg.fi.cnr.it (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: sale@mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it (sale@cscs.fi.cnr.it) Subject: Re: Sufism and Tassawuf Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: BISMILLAH AR RAHMANI AR RAHIM WA SALLA ALLAH ALA SEYDNA MOHAMMED WA 'ALI WA SALIIM Dear brothers in Islam and all sincerely seekers of God Before discussing we must have god informations about the meaning of the word Who is Muslim (for Shari'a): Somebody who says La Ilah illa Allah wa Mohammad rasullullah, consequently somebody who accepts a teacher taking his knowledge from Hadrat Mohammed (PH) is Muslim in essence also if he does not perform completly all five Arknu al Islam (Salt, Zakat, Si'am, Hajj), He is muslim at first step, at fist Arkan: Shahada. Who is Kafir (unbElivier): Kafir means Hypocrite, all men which dont accept that Allah is One and The Lord of All, they refuse the natural point of view (Fitra'), they hide a Thruth which stays in their heart, in fact literaly Hypocrite means who hides. Who is Ahl al Kitab All man who believes in a book from Allah by a Prophet, for some scholars in Shari'a, also Hindu have a book (vedanta), a remaining of books of Seydna 'Adam (PH), the buddists are looked upon as a branch of Hinduism. Now, Tasawwuf or sufism is the inner practice of 'Islam, started with the message of Hadrat Mohammed, and taught from Him before of all external practices; the first islamic practice was the dhikr, only!! To accept muriddin non formally muslim is a sunna way to drive and to teach, but this is only a first step of cleasing. The right dhikr and the awrad must be only in Arab language and from the Holy Quran, reading those the heart becomes pure and the correct religion view, the Islam, grows naturally. This is the realy reason because it is impossible a progression in Tassawuf path without become muslim also formally, perfectly obeing to the Shari'a in all his aspect. Out of this exist only Batinya, a deviation from the thruth teach of Hadrat Mohammed. Salam wa Baraka HAMZA NAJMUDDIN From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 10 15:55:33 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05527; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:13:18 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA26470; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:51:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from argon.GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA26466; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:51:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from eprice@localhost) by argon.GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA19908; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:55:33 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:55:33 -0700 (MST) From: Ellen L Price To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: sama In-Reply-To: <199604100754.PAA11962@eagle.ac.cowan.edu.au> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Rabia, In order to learn the "turn" you need a qualified teacher. The practice of preparation is 40 days, but the training usually takes much longer, traditionally it is 1001 days. There are teachers of the turn who are not muslim. Intuition lead you to a teacher, but will not teach you the classical turn. Ellen On 10 Apr 1996 aorsellidickson@stingray.ac.cowan.edu.au wrote: > dear Hafizullah, > thank you from the deepest of my heart for the knowledge you shared with us about the > "turn". I have become a muslim and a dervish (though not a mevlev) mostly because I > responded to the sama. I dreamed about it and I followed my dream, and saw it once in > London, then in Konya and finally in Instanbul in the old dargah( now a museum of > traditional music) For years I tried to find out more about the inner meaning of the > movements and the prayer( it is a form of moving prayer), but nobody ever came so close as > you to an explanation. > > ...now my question, as a woman and a dervish of another order: can I learn to turn using > purely my own intuition, or do I need learning from a mevlev teacher such as you? I have > seen women turning in London ( the tariqa had permission from Konya to do so, it was not a > non muslim self taught tariqa), but I would like to know if this is done also in other > communities. Is it bad adab to desire to know more about ? I have received a mysterious card > from Konya some time ago, and I plan to go there (if God wills so) for one day,(probably > Firday ) next September,after seeing my Sheikh in Instanbul. What is the day for the dhikr ? > I understand the purpose of doing the sama is not selfish gratification, and I would like to be > able to contribute > to the dissemination of higher energies onto this corner of the planet, if this vessel of mine > can possibly do so, not because of any worth of mine, but because of the mercy of HU. > Salaam wa barakatu > Rabia > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 10 15:59:54 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18790; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:32:30 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA27713; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 12:00:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from homer27.u.washington.edu by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA27693; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 12:00:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by homer27.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW96.04/UW-NDC Revision: 2.33 ) id AA87112; Wed, 10 Apr 96 08:59:54 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:59:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Lilyan Ila To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Sufism and Tassawuf In-Reply-To: <960410015850_466350109@mail02.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A asalaam-u-aleikum > > >Thank you Hafizullah for your thought provoking response to my question - > >it is the first time I have received a civil response to it. > > That saddens me. Please don't be sad, change is painful and explosive. It is a good sign. > clip > >Am I reading more into this, or does this imply that in order to reach the > >station of Murshid, one must be a Muslim? And if so, does this fact not > >imply that those who wish to be Sufis without embracing Islam are unable > >to advance beyond a certain point? > > In my opinion -- carefully labeled as such, since I'm not a murshid and > therefore cannot speak authoritatively -- that the station of a real murshid > IS being a true Muslim -- inwardly -- regardless of how s/he got there. > Whether or not his/her outward forms follow the usual prescription is, I > feel, not so relevant, since it is the inward nearness to Allah that is the > distinguishing and active factor. But then why are all the Murshids also outwardly Muslim? Could this be a coincidence, or is this not the case but is only true of the examples given (and all I have heard of in my very limited experience)? > > >Also, is being a Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Christian or Parsi murid who > >disciplines onesself according to the teachings of his/her path the same > >as being a murid who rejects all traditional forms? > > I think (opinion again) that it would depend on whether the murid is > rejecting or embracing forms out of real freedom or compelled to do so by > their nafs. One must remember that in our inner "ship of fools," the > subpersonality at the helm is not always the one holding the microphone. Surely one's intention is primary, and the acts of either rejecting or embracing forms are often if not usually nafs driven. I am still wondering, if all the Murshids are Muslim, but most Muslims are neither murids nor murshids, is being Muslim not analogous to primary school? Can one successfully complete undergraduate or graduate studies without completing earlier grades? Of course home schooling is an option, but the same material must be covered. Many practice the outward forms and never progress beyond this. But does this mean it should be skipped? And if so why? When I have asked this in the past, the responses have been either angry & defensive, or based on faulty logic (i.e. "many people who practice traditional forms behave badly, therefore practicing these forms is bad"). Lily From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 10 21:46:50 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20399; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 20:45:47 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA01607; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 20:06:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA01602; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 20:06:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from eprice@localhost) by helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA25640; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:46:51 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:46:50 -0700 (MST) From: Ellen L Price To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Sufism and Tassawuf In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Lilyan Ila wrote: > > asalaam-u-aleikum > > > > > >Thank you Hafizullah for your thought provoking response to my question - > > >it is the first time I have received a civil response to it. > > > > That saddens me. > > Please don't be sad, change is painful and explosive. It is a good sign. > > > clip > > >Am I reading more into this, or does this imply that in order to reach the > > >station of Murshid, one must be a Muslim? And if so, does this fact not > > >imply that those who wish to be Sufis without embracing Islam are unable > > >to advance beyond a certain point? > > > > In my opinion -- carefully labeled as such, since I'm not a murshid and > > therefore cannot speak authoritatively -- that the station of a real murshid > > IS being a true Muslim -- inwardly -- regardless of how s/he got there. > > Whether or not his/her outward forms follow the usual prescription is, I > > feel, not so relevant, since it is the inward nearness to Allah that is the > > distinguishing and active factor. > > But then why are all the Murshids also outwardly Muslim? Could this be a > coincidence, or is this not the case but is only true of the examples > given (and all I have heard of in my very limited experience)? All Murshids are not necessarily Muslim. > > > > > >Also, is being a Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Christian or Parsi murid who > > >disciplines onesself according to the teachings of his/her path the same > > >as being a murid who rejects all traditional forms? > > > > I think (opinion again) that it would depend on whether the murid is > > rejecting or embracing forms out of real freedom or compelled to do so by > > their nafs. One must remember that in our inner "ship of fools," the > > subpersonality at the helm is not always the one holding the microphone. > > > Surely one's intention is primary, and the acts of either rejecting or > embracing forms are often if not usually nafs driven. Rejecting or embracing forms can indeed by nafs driven, but the nafs can also color one's intention so that one ends up spiritualizing the ego. > > I am still wondering, if all the Murshids are Muslim, but most Muslims are > neither murids nor murshids, is being Muslim not analogous to primary > school? Can one successfully complete undergraduate or graduate studies > without completing earlier grades? Of course home schooling is an option, > but the same material must be covered. Many practice the outward forms > and never progress beyond this. But does this mean it should be skipped? > And if so why? When I have asked this in the past, the responses have been > either angry & defensive, or based on faulty logic (i.e. "many people who > practice traditional forms behave badly, therefore practicing these forms > is bad"). > > Lily > > Rumi has stated the importance of practices, the chief being zihkr. My experience is that those who become angry or defensive do so out of fear. Some don't want to question why they do (or don't do) things, or become self-righteous. It takes an open mind to be able to question. Ellen From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 11 01:42:48 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11218; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 22:10:28 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id VAA17120; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 21:45:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id VAA17108; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 21:45:44 -0400 (EDT) From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Received: from relay3.jaring.my by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23222; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 21:42:58 -0400 Received: from 161.142.239.228 (j6.brf42.jaring.my [161.142.239.228]) by relay3.jaring.my (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA09813 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:42:48 +0800 (MYT) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:42:48 +0800 (MYT) Message-Id: <199604110142.JAA09813@relay3.jaring.my> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: an exquisite corpse To: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: "One is the loneliest number you can find" -- a song by Bee Gees (?) >On Fri, 8 Mar 1996, Brent Daniel wrote: > After monitoring this mailing list for a month or two I must observe > that most of the postings regarding sufism, with the exception of > Jabreil's poetry, read like comments on the dissection of a corpse. Have "we-all-in-tariqas" met before in the far past? It seemed so to me, but I can't remember this "one". Hello Brent Daniel :) From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 11 17:31:11 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18601; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:52:40 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA18078; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:29:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA18060; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:29:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sale.cscs.fi.cnr.it by mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA18376; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:31:11 +0100 Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:31:11 +0100 Message-Id: <9604111731.AA18376@mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it> X-Sender: sale@risc.idg.fi.cnr.it X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: sale@mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it (sale@cscs.fi.cnr.it) Subject: Re: ***Questions on Dancing Dervishes**** Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > > >Greeting of Love and Peace >Assalaamu Alaikum > >Could anyone kindly provide me with some information in answer to the following >questions (presented to me by one of the students of the University of Helsinki): > >1. How and why dancing entered the Sufism? >2. Who were the first Sufis who practised dancing? >3. Why did the Rumi chose dancing? >4. Is there any symbolic meaning for certain movements in the >dancing of whirling dervishes? > >I will appreciate if some bibliography related to the above-mentioned questions >is also introduced. > >With thanks >Morteza >morteza.elmolhoda@helsinki.fi > > > > > Dear brother The first mutassawffin to Dance during the dhikr were Hadrat Mohammed (PH) and His Companions , in fact there are enough two famous hadiths about this, one of which you can find in the lovely book of Martin Lings "The prophet Mohammed",. In this above one of companions, whose now I do not remember the name started to dance for happyness listing the words of Rasullullah (PH), and He approved of it. I an other very famous Hadrat Umar ibn Khattab found The Holy Prophet dancing and saying "Allah" with the others Companions, He asked what about it, the Holy prophet (PH) said this is Dhrikr 'ullah. This is a sufficient replay for your three first questions! In Mevlevi Order the Sama (dance) is very worked out, each position means a letter of Arabic alphabet with peculiar inner secrets, you must ask more to some Muriddin of Mevleviya. Salam wa Baraka HAMZA NAJMUDDIN From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 11 17:30:22 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24961; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:02:16 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA17916; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:28:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA17905; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:27:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sale.cscs.fi.cnr.it by mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA18101; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:30:22 +0100 Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:30:22 +0100 Message-Id: <9604111730.AA18101@mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it> X-Sender: sale@risc.idg.fi.cnr.it X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: sale@mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it (sale@cscs.fi.cnr.it) Subject: Re: Sufism and Tassawuf Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: BISMILLAH AR RAHMANI AR RAHIM WA SALLA ALLAH ALA SEYDNA MOHAMMED WA 'ALI WA SALIIM Dear brothers in Islam and all sincerely seekers of God Before discussing we must have god informations about the meaning of the word Who is Muslim (for Shari'a): Somebody who says La Ilah illa Allah wa Mohammad rasullullah, consequently somebody who accepts a teacher taking his knowledge from Hadrat Mohammed (PH) is Muslim in essence also if he does not perform completly all five Arknu al Islam (Salt, Zakat, Si'am, Hajj), He is muslim at first step, at fist Arkan: Shahada. Who is Kafir (unbElivier): Kafir means Hypocrite, all men which dont accept that Allah is One and The Lord of All, they refuse the natural point of view (Fitra'), they hide a Thruth which stays in their heart, in fact literaly Hypocrite means who hides. Who is Ahl al Kitab All man who believes in a book from Allah by a Prophet, for some scholars in Shari'a, also Hindu have a book (vedanta), a remaining of books of Seydna 'Adam (PH), the buddists are looked upon as a branch of Hinduism. Now, Tasawwuf or sufism is the inner practice of 'Islam, started with the message of Hadrat Mohammed, and taught from Him before of all external practices; the first islamic practice was the dhikr, only!! To accept muriddin non formally muslim is a sunna way to drive and to teach, but this is only a first step of cleasing. The right dhikr and the awrad must be only in Arab language and from the Holy Quran, reading those the heart becomes pure and the correct religion view, the Islam, grows naturally. This is the realy reason because it is impossible a progression in Tassawuf path without become muslim also formally, perfectly obeing to the Shari'a in all his aspect. Out of this exist only Batinya, a deviation from the thruth teach of Hadrat Mohammed. Salam wa Baraka HAMZA NAJMUDDIN From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 12 01:26:06 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23489; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:47:08 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id VAA20108; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:26:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id VAA20091; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:26:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA00624 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:26:06 -0400 Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:26:06 -0400 Message-Id: <960411212606_467871727@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Juiciness for a corpse [was Re: an exquisite corpse Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 96-04-08 17:07:41 EDT, you write: >Subj: an exquisite corpse >Date: 96-04-08 17:07:41 EDT >From: bdaniel@cyberspace.com (Brent Daniel) >Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com >Reply-to: tariqas@europe.std.com >To: tariqas@europe.std.com > >After monitoring this mailing list for a month or two I must observe >that most of the postings regarding sufism, with the exception of >Jabreil's poetry, read like comments on the dissection of a corpse. > > > hello Brent and all, Brent, somehow your prose comes across as a poem. thank you. without wanting to insult anyone, the soul of Sufism *is* rather juicy, isn't it? and *not* lifeless or cadaverish. Thank you for reminding us. So, please Brent, may I invite you to contribute more to the liquidity of tariqas? in peace, Jinavamsa From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 12 04:05:17 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13879; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:26:59 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA04127; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:05:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA04080; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:05:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA09893 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:05:17 -0400 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:05:17 -0400 Message-Id: <960412000516_511815163@mail04> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Afterthought (Inayat's Motive) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Thank you for this reminder, Maharaj, in peace, Jinavamsa In a message dated 96-04-08 17:40:23 EDT, you write: >When Rumi comes up in conversation, this little verse always jumps into my >mind: >"What is to be done O Moslems? for I do not recognize myself >I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Gabr , nor Moslem. >I am not of the East, nor of the West, nor of the land, nor of the sea; >I am not of nature's mint, nor of the circling heavens. >I am not of earth, nor of water, nor of air, nor of fire; >I am not of the empyrean, nor of the dust, nor of existence, nor of entity. >I am not of India, nor China, nor of Bulgaria, nor of Saqsin ; >I am not of the kingdom of Iraqain, nor of the country of Khorasan . >I am not of this world, nor of the next, nor of Paradise, nor of Hell; >I am not of Adam, nor of Eve, nor of Eden and Rizwan . >My place is the Placeless, my trace is the Traceless; >'Tis neither body nor soul, for I belong to the soul of the Beloved" >Jallalludin Rumi >Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington >Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore >United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi >jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 12 04:05:27 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20187; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:31:43 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA04254; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:05:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA04197; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:05:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA02049 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:05:27 -0400 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:05:27 -0400 Message-Id: <960412000527_511815339@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Sufism and the One [was: Re Sufism Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: hello and thank you, Nur Jemal Gale, and all, peace unto all creatures. May Sufis, both those from a traditional Islamic upbringing or framework, and those who experience their Way as beyond, see the unity in all plurality, so that dress or vocabulary does not cause repulsion, but love and compassionate good-will, Jinavamsa PS may I ask a location to read more on your quotations below? In a message dated 96-04-08 20:57:55 EDT, you write: >Subj: Sufism >Date: 96-04-08 20:57:55 EDT >From: gale@SineWave.com (Gale) >Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com >Reply-to: tariqas@europe.std.com >To: tariqas@world.std.com > >Dear ones in God, > >One of the difficulties I find plaguing these discussions to define >Sufism is the ambiguity of language with respect to a cultural spiritual >phenomenon arising in the historical milieu of the Islamic era (during >which, by all textual accounts, Sufism derived its name), and a more >vertical contention of Sufism as a state of realization irrespective of >historical time. Thus we find these diverse opinions couched in one or >the other of these two perspectives with various shades of overlap in >between (e.g., for example, the opposite views of Junaid and al-Hallaj). >And, of course, depending upon the degree of emphasis placed on one side >or the other, the word Sufism will take on different degrees of absolute >and/or relative meaning (i.e., either inseparable from Islam and its >tenets, or Universal irrespective of religious affiliation). > >Yes, my personal orientation is with the latter, the universal >perspective -- and who am I to question whether God led me in this >direction or not? I find this view well defined in the words of Hazrat >Inayat Khan: > >"When a person says, 'I am a Christan mystic, or a Jewish or a Muslim >mystic,' he has not yet arrived at mysticism. Mysticism cannot be >divided into different sects, and the one who says, 'My mysticism is >different from yours' has not yet arrived there, for true mystics cannot >differ. Because inner experiences cannot be changed, their experience is >one and the same; all changes belong to the outer experiences of life. >The further one progresses on the spiritual path, the more experiences >one has which are similar to those of others in that advanced stage." >Hazrat Inayat Khan happens to identify this mysticism beyond historical >conditionings as Sufism  he could have named it anything or, in the >words of my own pir in Kashmir, "If we call our path Sufism, weve >killed it." Is this to be understood from that nameless essence of >Sufism which is the final goal for all, or from a literal historical >perspective? > >I am uncertain whether a final reconciliation between these two views >will be reached soon on a broad scale. Nevertheless, I would hope that >respect for each could be achieved through mutual dialogue. In my years >of travel through the East, I do indeed find that the Sufi sects are far >more exclusive and less eccumenical than the sects within other >traditions. (Although, I must acknowledge the wonderful efforts and >dedication of the International Assoc. of Sufism to promote such >dialogue through its conferences as an important overdue start towards >this end). Yet, in general, this has been an alarming experience, and >even sad given the degree of tolerance and dialogue moving forward >between the various schools of Buddhism, Christianity, and Judaism. I >once organized a candlelight service for world peace in New Delhi near >Nizamuddin Aulias dargah when all the turmoil between Hindus and >Muslims was raging over the Ayodhya temple/majid, and invited people >from all the traditions to participate. The local pirs wouldnt attend >because my Buddhist monk friends were going to be represented. Ive >also participated in large National Interfaith Conferences in India and >have often found the representative Sufi teachers to be the least >friendly and most removed from the spirit of the event  they arrive >when it is their time to lecture, and race out the door when they >finish. This, in my opinion, is pure religious bigotry and puffed-up >spiritual pride, and it is very difficult for me to respect such >individuals (regardless of the badges they wear) as representatives of >their great forefathers/mothers in the Sufi tradition. It raises the >question for me whether to find the Sufis, who are Sufis out of >realization rather than historical conditioning, whether they may not be >more plentiful outside the cultural tradition we call Sufism. Who is >more the real Sufi, a rabbi like Zalman Schacter who prays at the tomb >of Nizamuddin Aulia every time he visits India, or a Muslim shaykh who >refuses outright to step in a house of worship other than his own? Each >to her/his own definition, Ive only simply presented the one given to >me. > >Blessings to you all, Nur Jemal Gale > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 12 05:13:06 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10548; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 01:28:30 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id BAA09640; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 01:15:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id BAA09630; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 01:15:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Surfa.SineWave.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06400; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 01:12:21 -0400 Received: from gale (m-13.IP1.SineWave.com [206.13.48.45]) by Surfa.SineWave.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA11686 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 22:07:58 -0700 Message-Id: <316DE662.2AEB@sinewave.com> Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 22:13:06 -0700 From: Gale X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Sufism and the One References: <960412000527_511815339@emout07.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Jinavamsa@aol.com wrote: > > PS may I ask a location to read more on your quotations below? > > >"When a person says, 'I am a Christan mystic, or a Jewish or a Muslim > >mystic,' he has not yet arrived at mysticism. Mysticism cannot be > >divided into different sects, and the one who says, 'My mysticism is > >different from yours' has not yet arrived there, for true mystics cannot differ. Because inner experiences cannot be changed, their experience is one and the same; all changes belong to the outer experiences of life. The further one progresses on the spiritual path, the more experiences one has which are similar to those of others in that advanced stage." Jinavamsa, its from the orange Message Volumes of Hazrat Inayat Khan, Volume 11, page 146. Love to you and the One we all serve, Nur Jemal From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 12 08:21:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15046; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 04:37:31 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id EAA18225; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 04:22:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id EAA18218; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 04:22:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13229; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 04:22:01 -0400 Received: from Moresby.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0u7e6N-000FaTC; Fri, 12 Apr 96 01:21 PDT Message-Id: Date: Fri, 12 Apr 96 01:21 PDT X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: abd al Qawi Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: abd al Qawi Does the impression seem to knaw: The one of the orb and the wings and the wet, as your sweet lips pursing suckled the angel you were being? Allah shows us strength in many different ways. The sustenance received to support all existence could take the same lack of effort as to feed one small babe. A year ago I threw away another type of bottle. Now there is no needle, straw or even cigarettes I would lie if I spoke and said there was no effort: I pretend all the time. But oh that for a moment don't ever think this strength had anything to do with me accept by grace I am reminded and given strength by a love Divine which repels the enemy while asking me to simply just let go of what control I have pretended hiding in a self made cage or crib instead of choosing to be free.. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 12 12:53:57 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28416; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:18:51 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA28923; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:55:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA28916; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:55:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13197; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:53:57 -0400 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:53:57 -0400 (EDT) From: arsalaan fay Subject: comment on turning To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: aorsellidickson@stingray.ac.cowan.edu.au In-Reply-To: <960412011747_189614492@mail02.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Thank you, Hafizullah for your sensitive posting. I have an "outer form" addition. Until relatively receintly women under the Melevi Order were not allowed to turn with men or in public. This was because of the special sensitivies of women. As far as I am aware public mixed gender Sama is still only allowed on Dec.17 (Mevlana's urs -death day) and Sept 30 (Mevlana's birthday) This is not a comment on turning as a personal practice, or at a private event. Allah is kind(ness) Arsalaan Fay From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 12 06:51:06 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13583; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:45:20 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id CAA15072; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 02:51:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from homer10.u.washington.edu by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id CAA15066; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 02:51:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by homer10.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW96.04/UW-NDC Revision: 2.33 ) id AA116244; Thu, 11 Apr 96 23:51:06 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 23:51:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Lilyan Ila To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Afterthought (Inayat's Motive) In-Reply-To: <960412000516_511815163@mail04> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: asalaam-u-aleikum Many thanks to whomever originally posted this beautiful verse by the Muslim saint Mevlana Rumi. It is so richly expresses the truth of Islam. Sincere practice as exemplified by the saints and shaykhs leads to expansion of the soul and nearness to the Most High, rather than the constriction that so many (both Muslim and non-Muslim) wrongly imagine. Lily > >"What is to be done O Moslems? for I do not recognize myself > >I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Gabr , nor Moslem. > >I am not of the East, nor of the West, nor of the land, nor of the sea; > >I am not of nature's mint, nor of the circling heavens. > >I am not of earth, nor of water, nor of air, nor of fire; > >I am not of the empyrean, nor of the dust, nor of existence, nor of entity. > >I am not of India, nor China, nor of Bulgaria, nor of Saqsin ; > >I am not of the kingdom of Iraqain, nor of the country of Khorasan . > >I am not of this world, nor of the next, nor of Paradise, nor of Hell; > >I am not of Adam, nor of Eve, nor of Eden and Rizwan . > >My place is the Placeless, my trace is the Traceless; > >'Tis neither body nor soul, for I belong to the soul of the Beloved" From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 12 14:49:42 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22439; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:27:16 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA11632; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:49:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from bbs.cruzio.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA11619; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:49:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:49:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pine196.cruzio.com by bbs.cruzio.com id aa07473; 12 Apr 96 7:48 PDT X-Sender: dances@mail.cruzio.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: james hallam Subject: Re: comment on turning Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A salaam aleikum with all due respect, the position of women in Islam and Sufism, is to be put behind men. Why are women treated as lower than men? In the sufi order that I am in during prayers they cover their heads with scarf and are in the back while men are in front. I believe Allah did not wish this stratification to occur. It is to the benifit to men's egos that this abnormal situation arose. Its baloney! wishing you all the blessing of Allah on this beautiful and equal day! james the lesser than my brethren females From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 12 17:02:02 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06798; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:50:09 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id NAA26939; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:04:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id NAA26935; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:04:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07000; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:02:04 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA23117 for tariqas@world.std.com; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:02:02 -0400 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:02:02 -0400 Message-Id: <960412130118_468335193@mail06> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Women in back, please [was Re: comment on turning Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: hello James and all, You comment (quoted below) that the prayers have women in the back and men in the front, and your sense of the value of this pattern is "baloney." I am not here to justify or rationalize anything in particular. Just a comment or three: There are cosmic inspirations and there are cultural constrictions. Practices in a religious context often attempt to integrate these two, or at least keep them both in view and in balance. Whether this is admirable or ugly or neither is another issue. in peace, Jinavamsa In a message dated 96-04-12 10:55:50 EDT, you write: >Subj: Re: comment on turning >Date: 96-04-12 10:55:50 EDT >From: dances@cruzio.com (james hallam) >Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com >Reply-to: tariqas@europe.std.com >To: tariqas@europe.std.com > >salaam aleikum > >with all due respect, the position of women in Islam and Sufism, is to be >put behind men. Why are women treated as lower than men? In the sufi order >that I am in during prayers they cover their heads with scarf and are in >the back while men are in front. I believe Allah did not wish this >stratification to occur. It is to the benifit to men's egos that this >abnormal situation arose. Its baloney! > >wishing you all the blessing of Allah on this beautiful and equal day! > >james the lesser than my brethren females > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 12 17:47:01 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07677; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:44:56 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id NAA01229; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:46:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from WIZARD.COLORADO.EDU by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id NAA01208; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:46:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from granger.colorado.edu by WIZARD.COLORADO.EDU (PMDF #12158) id <01I3GBGNL2B48Y60GQ@WIZARD.COLORADO.EDU>; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:44 GMT Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:47:01 -0600 From: Mike Granger Subject: RE: comment on turning To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960412174701.4707b1b8@daryl.colorado.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: granger_m@daryl.colorado.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Let me understand. You belong to an order that practices something you don't agree with, that is, separating the men from the women. Well then, why do you participate? Why don't you tell the Shaykh that it is wrong? Tell him that Allah, the Exalted Creator, got it wrong, and that the Holy Prophet, Peace upon Him, also got it wrong, and that the women folk are supposed to mix with the men folk during prayer. What is it about this physical separation between the sexes in Islam that causes people to say the Islam and Muslim men make women "lower"? Anyone who really follows Islam and Sunnah understands the wisdoms in this separation, in prayers and elsewhere. If you think that this separation is a mistake, then what is it, besides your own ego, that makes you think mixing is good? Is it simply that you're used to the ways of the west, and feel that your spiritual practices must conform to some kind of 20th century western social fabric? What else do you think is a mistake, perhaps arranged marriages as opposed to dating? A woman covering herself modestly as opposed to wearing whatever she likes, erotically flouting her stuff in public? It's also a Sunnah that a woman, married or unmarried, should never be alone with a man in whomever's home unless they are married, and if they aren't married, then an adult relative of both the man and woman must accompany them in order to ensure that no hanky-panky is happening. Is this also an archaic, neanderthal practice that has no place in the enlightened 20th century? Do Allah and his Prophet have this one wrong also? I guess I'm talking about the extremes here, and of course in the west we have the difficult task of making our religion or spiritual practices socially tolerable for ourselves and others, and in western Tariqa groups, what I've usually seen is a middle ground where there is separation during prayer and dhikr, or perhaps separation during prayer, but mixing during dhikr and other types of gatherings. Who knows, peraps there are western sufi groups in which there is total homogenity between men and woman. Question is, what is it that you are striving for in your participation? If it's "equality" of the sexes, well then, I can see where that would frustrate you. Personally, I think the baloney is the way in which men and women in western society mix so freely, resulting in so many of them giving free reign to their nafs and organs, and contributing in a big way to the steady decline in whatever shread of social morality is left, leaving many lives, loves, and families in pieces. Truth is, it's men's egos (and women's) that cause them to be blind to the wisdom in things that are in reality beneficial. Abdassalam Granger At 10:49 AM 4/12/96 -0400, you wrote: >salaam aleikum > >with all due respect, the position of women in Islam and Sufism, is to be >put behind men. Why are women treated as lower than men? In the sufi order >that I am in during prayers they cover their heads with scarf and are in >the back while men are in front. I believe Allah did not wish this >stratification to occur. It is to the benifit to men's egos that this >abnormal situation arose. Its baloney! > >wishing you all the blessing of Allah on this beautiful and equal day! > >james the lesser than my brethren females > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 12 18:32:57 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28243; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:17:02 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA05753; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:32:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA05739; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:32:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (zafer@localhost) by mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA02283 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:32:58 +0300 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:32:57 +0300 (EET DST) From: Zafer BARUTCUOGLU To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: abd al Qawi In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Jabreil, Every material conducts best one certain frequency of sound. And when it does, it vibrates along with it. That's how your poem resonated through me. Thank you. And as sun looks beautiful only when it rises, we value things most when we gain them. So I now know the source for your love and peace towards all. I hope your sun never stops rising, and that you never lose sight of its beauty. //\ 0-0 +---oOO (_) OOo---------------------------------------------------------+ | - Zafer Barutcuoglu | | Undergradute at Bogazici University Mathematics Department | | E-mail: zafer@mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr | | URL : HTTP://mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr/~zafer | | Voice : +90 (212) 270 5345 | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ |"In questions of science the authority of a thousand is not worth the | | humble reasoning of a single individual." | | -Galileo Galilei | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 12 18:32:30 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02506; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:24:03 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA05797; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:32:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from blob.best.net by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA05790; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:32:30 -0400 (EDT) From: informe@best.com Received: from [204.156.129.34] (informe.vip.best.com [204.156.129.34]) by blob.best.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id LAA15263 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:32:30 -0700 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:32:30 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: RE: comment on turning Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: As-salaamu alaikum, Brother Abdassalam Granger wrote: >Let me understand. You belong to an order that practices something >you don't agree with, that is, separating the men from the women. Well >then, why do you participate? Why don't you tell the Shaykh that it is wrong? >Tell him that Allah, the Exalted Creator, got it wrong, and that the Holy >Prophet, Peace upon Him, also got it wrong, and that the women folk are >supposed to mix with the men folk during prayer. While I always thought that the separation was a Sunnah practice, I have a somewhat vague memory of someone insisting that it is in fact an Arab social practice and not found in Qur'an or Hadith. Can any of our scholarly brothers or sisters provide citations? Please understand, I have no desire to make a dispute. Salaams, Hamza From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 12 21:50:26 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25377; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 18:29:41 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA28529; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 17:52:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from rara.ossi.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA28525; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 17:52:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leiber.ossi.com (leiber.ossi.com [192.240.5.68]) by rara.ossi.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id OAA01698 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:52:41 -0700 Received: by leiber.ossi.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.12.736) id <01BB287F.66BCD6B0@leiber.ossi.com>; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:50:33 -0700 Message-Id: From: Nagaraju Pappu To: "'tariqas@europe.std.com'" Subject: RE: comment on turning Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:50:26 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.12.736 Encoding: 53 TEXT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: >>with all due respect, the position of women in Islam and Sufism, is to be >>put behind men. Why are women treated as lower than men? In the sufi order >>that I am in during prayers they cover their heads with scarf and are in >>the back while men are in front. I believe Allah did not wish this >>stratification to occur. It is to the benifit to men's egos that this >>abnormal situation arose. Its baloney! >> >>wishing you all the blessing of Allah on this beautiful and equal day! >> >>james the lesser than my brethren females This reminds of a wonderful tale: There was once a King who visited the Sage Bahaudin Naqshband, and sat observing his assembly From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 12 22:32:45 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12230; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 18:59:47 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA03222; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 18:36:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from sowebo.charm.net by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA03201; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 18:36:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from charm.net by sowebo.charm.net; Fri, 12 Apr 96 18:36 EDT From: tony@charm.net (Anthony Teelucksingh) To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: comment on turning Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 18:32:45 -0400 Content-Type: text Organization: Rodgers Forge in Towson, Maryland Message-Id: <316ed6c7.38453166@smtp.charm.net> References: <2.2.16.19960412174701.4707b1b8@daryl.colorado.edu> In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19960412174701.4707b1b8@daryl.colorado.edu> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99d/32.182 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:47:01 -0600, you wrote: > > Let me understand. You belong to an order that practices something >you don't agree with, that is, separating the men from the women. Well >then, why do you participate? Why don't you tell the Shaykh that it is wrong? >Tell him that Allah, the Exalted Creator, got it wrong, and that the Holy >Prophet, Peace upon Him, also got it wrong, and that the women folk are >supposed to mix with the men folk during prayer. I'm afraid that I don't recall reading the original post, but I'm surely familiar with the view expressed here. It's not as simple as one way being right and the other being wrong. It's perfectly acceptable to question prior practices. If we questioned more, perhaps islamic culture would not be as moribund as it currently is (in my view, of course). > What is it about this physical separation between the sexes in Islam >that causes people to say the Islam and Muslim men make women "lower"? I'd suggest that one's intention in the separation makes all of the difference. Although I have no particular problem with the separation of men and women in prayer (for practical, evident reasons), I know that for many men, women are lower, period. The usual claptrap that islam made the sexes equal in theory does not even begin to explain the day-to-day differences in equality in practice. >Anyone who really follows Islam and Sunnah understands the wisdoms in this >separation, in prayers and elsewhere. If you think that this separation is >a mistake, then what is it, besides your own ego, that makes you think >mixing is good? Is it simply that you're used to the ways of the west, and >feel that your spiritual practices must conform to some kind of 20th century >western social fabric? What's your rush to embrace the ways of the East or to reject the 20th century? My point is that honest differences in interpretation and yes, tolerance, exist and your view may not be best for everyone. > What else do you think is a mistake, perhaps >arranged marriages as opposed to dating? A woman covering herself modestly >as opposed to wearing whatever she likes, erotically flouting her stuff in >public? It's also a Sunnah that a woman, married or unmarried, should never >be alone with a man in whomever's home unless they are married, and if they >aren't married, then an adult relative of both the man and woman must >accompany them in order to ensure that no hanky-panky is happening. Is this >also an archaic, neanderthal practice that has no place in the enlightened >20th century? Do Allah and his Prophet have this one wrong also? What if questions are raised about these practices? Who says that this approach is the only way. I don't know about you, but I've been alone with unmarried women and there wasn't any "hanky-panky," or even the thought of it. As a practical matter, how do you manage to avoid women day-to-day? > I guess I'm talking about the extremes here, and of course in the >west we have the difficult task of making our religion or spiritual >practices socially tolerable for ourselves and others, and in western Tariqa >groups, what I've usually seen is a middle ground where there is separation >during prayer and dhikr, or perhaps separation during prayer, but mixing >during dhikr and other types of gatherings. Who knows, peraps there are >western sufi groups in which there is total homogenity between men and >woman. Question is, what is it that you are striving for in your participation? >If it's "equality" of the sexes, well then, I can see where that would >frustrate you. It looks like you've settled down some :^). In fact, you make my point as well. > Personally, I think the baloney is the way in which men and >women in western society mix so freely, resulting in so many of them giving >free reign to their nafs and organs, and contributing in a big way to the >steady decline in whatever shread of social morality is left, leaving many >lives, loves, and families in pieces. Truth is, it's men's egos (and >women's) that cause them to be blind to the wisdom in things that are in >reality beneficial. I wish it were this simple -- just separate men and women, and many problems would be solved. -- Tony Anthony Teelucksingh "Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk." -- Henry David Thoreau From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 12 22:44:16 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16831; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 19:07:41 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA04155; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 18:46:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from rara.ossi.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA04148; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 18:46:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leiber.ossi.com (leiber.ossi.com [192.240.5.68]) by rara.ossi.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id PAA02828 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:46:32 -0700 Received: by leiber.ossi.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.12.736) id <01BB2886.EC668110@leiber.ossi.com>; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:44:23 -0700 Message-Id: From: Nagaraju Pappu To: "'tariqas@europe.std.com'" Subject: FW: comment on turning Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:44:16 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.12.736 Encoding: 65 TEXT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: sorry ignore my previous mail - there was a problem with my mail program. >---------- >From: Nagaraju Pappu >Sent: Friday, April 12, 1996 9:50 PM >To: 'tariqas@europe.std.com' >Subject: RE: comment on turning > >>with all due respect, the position of women in Islam and Sufism, is to be >>put behind men. Why are women treated as lower than men? In the sufi order >>that I am in during prayers they cover their heads with scarf and are in >>the back while men are in front. I believe Allah did not wish this >>stratification to occur. It is to the benifit to men's egos that this >>abnormal situation arose. Its baloney! >> >>wishing you all the blessing of Allah on this beautiful and equal day! >> >>james the lesser than my brethren females > >This reminds of a wonderful tale: > >There was once a King who visited the Sage Bahaudin Naqshband, and >sat observing his assembly >Afterwards when they were eating, the King said: > >"Teacher of the Age! your diciples when you are in Session, are ranged >in semicircles, and in an orderly manner very similar to that of my own >Court, >Is there any significance in this?" > >Bahaduin answered: > >"King of the world! How are your own courtiers stationed? Tell me and I >shall >describe the ordereing of the ranks of the Seekers." > >"The first arc" said the King, " is composed of those who are in especial >favour with me, so that they are nearest. The second array comprises the >most important and powerful people in the realm and the ambassadors. The >outer rank is for all the lesser ones" > >"In that case" said the shah, " Our marshalling of people is far from the >intention expressed by you. Those nearest to me are the deaf, so they >shall hear. The middle group is composed of the ignorant, so that they >may pay attention to the Teaching and the farthest away are the >Enlightened, >for whom proximity of this kind is unimportant" > >(From Seeker after Truth, Idries Shah, Page 10) > >If women are in the back, that does not mean that they are considered >lower. >The only fact is that they are in the back, the rest is our imagination. > >regards >nagaraj > > > > > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 12 23:35:56 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04405; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 19:39:07 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA08656; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 19:39:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02981; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 19:36:03 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA08392; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 19:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 19:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199604122335.TAA08392@europe.std.com> X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [ZIAulHUQ@aol.com] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Fri Apr 12 19:35:54 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA08387; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 19:35:54 -0400 (EDT) From: ZIAulHUQ@aol.com Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com (emout07.mx.aol.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02005; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 19:33:57 -0400 Received: by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA28249 for tariqas@world.std.com; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 19:33:56 -0400 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 19:33:56 -0400 Message-Id: <960412193355_512442607@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Cc: NurLuna@aol.com Subject: SHAIKH SERIF AL-RIFAI- ZIKRS IN NYC HU, Shaikh Serif of the Rifai-Marufi Order of Istanbul will be in NYC and will conduct Zikrs at 7:30 PM on May 5th, May 19th and May 26th to which all are welcome at " Fazil's Dance Studio" on the 3rd. floor at 743 8th Avenue ( between 46th and 47th streets). Now residing in North Carolina Shaikh Serif is the head of the Rifai-Marufi Order of America, and can be reached at: M. SERIF CATALKAYA RIFAI MARUFI ORDER OF AMERICA P.O. Box 296 CARRBORO, NC 27510 919-933-0772 For more information on the Zikrs in NYC call 212-265-4345 or the studio at 212-541-4455, or Email at this address. Also, if you wish, join Serif Baba and dervishes at the mehzar of Hz. Baba Bawa in Philadelphia on May 12th after noon prayers. HU From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 12 23:26:49 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07815; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 19:47:21 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA07810; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 19:26:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA07806; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 19:26:45 -0400 (EDT) From: JHulvey@aol.com Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA16680 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 19:26:49 -0400 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 19:26:49 -0400 Message-Id: <960412192649_468603454@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: comment on turning Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 96-04-12 10:55:50 EDT, you write: >with all due respect, the position of women in Islam and Sufism, is to be >put behind men. Why are women treated as lower than men? In the sufi order >that I am in during prayers they cover their heads with scarf and are in >the back while men are in front. I believe Allah did not wish this >stratification to occur. It is to the benifit to men's egos that this >abnormal situation arose. Its baloney! I agree......but I wonder, if you feel this way, why you stay in the order? Julie From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 12 19:38:03 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21674; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:16:58 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id VAA15992; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:05:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from halon.sybase.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id VAA15982; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:05:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.sybase.com (sybgate) by halon.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4/SybFW4.0) id AA11147; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:38:43 -0700 Received: from serii.sybase.com ([158.159.40.63]) by smtp1.sybase.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/SybH3.5-030896) id AA24311; Fri, 12 Apr 96 12:38:03 PDT Received: by serii.sybase.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-4.1/SybEC3.2) id MAA13690; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:38:03 -0700 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:38:03 -0700 From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui) Message-Id: <199604121938.MAA13690@serii.sybase.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Ninth Sufi thought X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: These are very beautiful... thank you, --mateen siddiqui From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 13 01:23:51 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29288; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:36:17 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id VAA17521; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:23:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from bbs.cruzio.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id VAA17516; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:23:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:23:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pine196.cruzio.com by bbs.cruzio.com id aa24455; 12 Apr 96 18:22 PDT X-Sender: dances@mail.cruzio.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: james hallam Subject: Thoughts on turning to Allah not away from women Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: >In a message dated 96-04-12 10:55:50 EDT, you write: > >>with all due respect, the position of women in Islam and Sufism, is to be >>put behind men. Why are women treated as lower than men? In the sufi order >>that I am in during prayers they cover their heads with scarf and are in >>the back while men are in front. I believe Allah did not wish this >>stratification to occur. It is to the benifit to men's egos that this >>abnormal situation arose. Its baloney! > >I agree......but I wonder, if you feel this way, why you stay in the order? > >Julie >.- Well it was early in the morn and a toothache spurred me to not reflect on my writing. The post on turning must have turned me @ I once was invited to a turning at first inthe circle I tried ti stay in the outer circle but was pushed up to the next rank and so on till I was in the center. After the turning when I sat the world turned about me. I was the center. No dizzyness. This state lasted about an half an hour. Some mention was made of female "weakness" without me being articulate this was the "baloney" Men are far weaker than women. The turning about Allah obeys "nothing" but Allah's wishes. Jesus said take the beam out of your eye rather than... As to your question why... I love my fellow darvishes and shaikh and master as best as I can for they have loved me when I was incapable of love. It is home we are all friends male female alike so it must be in all tariqas so why the segrgation I don't know;) My point was not to anger or hurt any one but social is one thing Allah an nother. I am willing to go by my shaikh or the communitys wishes. God bless you all in your daily endeavors James the lesser From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 13 04:35:17 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26027; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 00:55:47 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA01348; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 00:38:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA01340; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 00:38:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19717; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 00:35:17 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 00:35:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Hindu Sufis (Was re: Sufism, sufism and Islam) To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: <199604061959.LAA26911@jobe.shell.portal.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum On Sat, 6 Apr 1996, Haramullah wrote: > I have heard that Rumi was Hindu. Is this accurate? > I like this 'connected' assertion and appreciate your 'inner dimension' > preference. ;> > I'm pretty sure that Rumi was a devout Muslim. I'm also pretty sure Kabir, another famous Sufi poet, was a Hindu, and not a Muslim. My guess is that there have been a number of Hindu Sufis throughout the years. Insh'Allah, this post will not restart tariqas on the topic of "You've got to be a Muslim to be a Sufi." I believe I've still got a LONG file of posts on that subject, if anyone is really interested. Yours, Habib Rose From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 13 05:11:45 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05380; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:26:05 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id BAA03647; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:12:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id BAA03643; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:12:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00802; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:11:45 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:11:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Pir O Murshid Hazart Inyat Khan (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun Apr 7 20:28:19 GMT 1996 From:tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: Received: from europe.std.com(199.172.62.20) by Kaos via smap (V1.3) id sma027474; Sun Apr 7 13:27:41 1996 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA10328; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:21:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA10324; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:21:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from James.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0u60xW-000FfYC; Sun, 7 Apr 96 13:21 PDT Message-ID: Date: Sun, 7 Apr 96 13:21 PDT X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Length: 2360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: Pir O Murshid Hazart Inyat Khan Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com There have been several comments which have neen made concerning Pir O Murshid Hazarat Inyat Khan. The first thing I would like to say is that when ever he is referred to as Hik even on the WH List I take offence so if my feelings matter I request that he be refrerred to by his full name. He was in fact born a Moselm. He was given a mission of not spreading Islam to the West but rather Sufism. Suffism as he presents it represents a message. The message uses perfect love, beauty and harmony as the three pillars upon which it stands. He also declares the validity of all religeon. Regarding his mureeds. There refer to Allah as an unknowable essence. They are not necessarily Moslems although they might be. His ten tenents as to what it means to be a Sufi which can be found in Vol I of The Inner Life pages 13-21 are as foolows: 1. The is one God, the Eternal, the Only Being, none exists save He. 2. There is one Holy Book, the sacred manuscript of nature, the only scripture which can elighten the reader. 3. There is one Master, The Guiding Spirit of All Souls, who constantly leads His followers towards the light. 4. There is one religeon, the unswerving progress in the right direction towards the ideal, which fulfils the life's purpose of every soul. 5. There is One Law, the law of reciprocity, which can be observed by a selfless conscience, together with a sense of awakened justice. 6 There is one brotherhood, the human brotherhood which united the children of earth indescriminitly in the Fatherhood of God. 7. There is one moral, the love which springs forth from self denial and blooms in deeds of beneficiance. 8. There is one Truth, the true knowledge of our being, within and without, which is the essence of all wisdom. 9. There is one object of prasie the beauty which uplifts the hearts of its worshippers through all aspects from the seen to the unseen. 10 There is one path, the annihilation of the false ego in the real, which raises the mortal to immortality, in which resides all perfection. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 13 05:10:48 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05490; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:26:50 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id BAA03675; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:12:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id BAA03668; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:12:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00569; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:10:48 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:10:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Buddhism and Islam, Teachers and Lineage (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun Apr 7 20:23:51 GMT 1996 From:tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: Received: from europe.std.com(199.172.62.20) by Kaos via smap (V1.3) id sma027279; Sun Apr 7 13:23:33 1996 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA10129; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:17:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA10125; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:17:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id NAA08940 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:16:09 -0700 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id NAA19040 for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:16:07 -0700 Message-ID: <199604072016.NAA19040@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Buddhism and Islam, Teachers and Lineage To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:16:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <960407011114_507542940@emout04.mail.aol.com> from "Jinavamsa@aol.com" at Apr 7, 96 01:11:14 am From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Length: 8069 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com 49960407 assalam alaykum, my kin |From: Jinavamsa@aol.com |Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 01:11:14 -0500 |>|Is the Buddha considered not to be a true teacher because he had no teacher |>|and was a self-appointed teacher? |>...The Buddha is often depicted as having studied with two contemporaries |>and mastering their disciplines.... |Yes, he had two teachers, Aa.laara Kaalaama and then Uddaka Raamaputta (or |Raamaputra in Skt). PHarvey translates their names as Alara the Kalama and Uddaka the son of Rama |...both acknowledged him as fully educated in their disciplines, their discipline did not instruct in an intellectual fashion as much as in the mastering of certain states of consciousness. you are correct that the Buddhist sutras usually describe the Buddha as having mastered the states of mind over which these men were masters and transcending into the substratum states of consciousness 'upon which both of these were based', in the process becoming the master of each of his teachers |...he himself felt there were much more important stuff left to learn. yes, though this is usually described as 'perceiving that what he was taught was only part of a greater whole', founded upon more subtle awarenesses, etc. |He then went beyond their teachings ...and what he decided was worth |teaching (sometimes called the four noble truths including the fourth, |itself called the eight-fold path) was *not* something he had learned |from these two teachers. there are some who suggest that the teachings of the Samanas with whom the Buddha is said to have studied aside from his teachers comprise a great deal of what has come today to be called Buddhism and yet that what the Buddha made popular were the secret or advanced teachings of those individuals. in this way some claim for him a kind of 'funda- mental traditional origin' separate from the Brahmanism which was practiced by many Indians of the time in his area of India also, the way you describe it as the Buddha 'deciding what was worth teaching' is somewhat ambiguous and may lead us astray. rather than get into a detailed debate about what the Buddha taught and how, I would rather merely state alternatives I have heard and encourage the reader to consider carefully that matters regarding Buddhism are at times confusing and quite complex due its age and mobility) in any case I agree with you that the teachers of yogic concentration with whom the Buddha studied are not usually said to have originated what he taught. the same is also true of Muhammad, whose live was blessed by Allah with the recitation of _Al Qur'an_ (a revelation to which his human friends and teachers had no previous exposure as I understand it; corrections welcome) |So in that relevant way, he did not have teachers. what constitutes 'relevance' is a matter of debate. as I said above, some think the Buddha's teachers of a great portion of his material may have been the Samanas, whom PHarvey describes in this way: The time of the Buddha was one of changing social conditions, where the traditions of small kin-based communities were bing undermined as these were swallowed up by expanding kingdoms, such as those of Magadha and Kosala. A number of cities had developed which were the centres of administration and of developing organized trad, based on a money economy. The ideas expressed in the *Upanisads* were starting to filter out into the wider intellectual community and were being hotly debated, both by Brahmins and wandering philosophers, known as *Samanas*, who were somewhat akin to the early Greek philosophers and mystics. The *Samanas* rejected the Vedic tradition and wandered free of family ties, living by alms, in order to think, debate and investigate. _An Introduction to Buddhism_, by PHarvey, Cambridge University Press, 1991; p. 11. _______________________________ many Samanas in fact taught similar or the same things as the Buddha, such as the doctrines of Rebirth and Karma which are traditionally associated with Buddhism. traditional Buddhist teachings also indicate that other Samana sects or strands were evaluated and reviewed by the Buddha, contrasting his own Middle Way with the teachings of various others in the Samana movement |(If you have a teacher who teaches you the alphabet and you then go off and |start reading and composing poetry on your own, that goes way beyond what |your teachers taught you. Just a metaphor.) Gotama Buddha life is a formula, an example, a shining beacon of success to those of us who suffer and wonder how this suffering might be ended. it did not begin at his instruction of yogic meditation. this was a very particular time wherein he learned subtle concentration techniques to which he would add a great cache of others in consequence of his explorations in the fields of consciousness his first instruction came as a Prince of a large kingdom in India. he was given everything a boy could want, though spared specific types of phenomenon (that later became transformative for him) such as the awareness of illness, age, death and monasticism on account of his father's desire for him to succeed him as ruler. there had been prophesies concerning what would happen should he learn of these things the bulk of the instruction concerning the life of the Buddha within modern Buddhism was created, as so many of the mystics after him, a half-dozen centuries after his death, compiled of various traditional and oral accounts from all this I do see your point. the Buddha discovered something NEW. he was moving BEYOND the teachings of his contemporaries, exploring and discussing/instructing on the various meditational methods he amassed and yet his instruction reflects his encounter with the Real. Buddhist instruction variably categorizes what he engaged as 'buddha-consciousness', 'nirvana' or 'perfect enlightenment', and often qualifies all methods taught by the Buddha and his successors as '(kausalya) upaya' or 'skilful means' upaya is reminiscent of the classification system I have heard spoken of by Muslims, according that a variety of rules/restrictions/practices are available and that one's level of understanding and awareness might dictate what practice/teaching was appropriate to the level of the student (the guide/sheikh/master/sensei providing valuable input here) |My question was simply about the idea that a teacher cannot be a teacher if |the lineage of that teacher does not satisfy a particular scrutiny. Gotama's lineage begins with him in conservative accounts, yet there are also teachings which asertain the Buddha's instruction to have been at a certain point in his innumerable lives (rebirth is a fundamental doctrine within Buddhism and many of the surrounding religious of the Buddha's time) one account has him studying under the buddha Dipankara, for example, and some Buddhists teach that Gotama was the final and perfect One who had been born as all previous Buddhas in a type of mystical relation into which we might join (compare this to the 'Golden Chain' of traditional sufism in that the buddhas form a 'chain' of rebirth and within each is a graduated development of consciousness) |it applied in a way not only to the Buddha but also to Mohammed himself, |in a way that it does not apply to those who heard from ..... who heard |from Mohammed. I would compare Muhammad's engagement of al Haqq, the Real, through His agent Gabriel, with the Buddha's 'perfect enlightenment'. both are reputed to have gone into seclusion (Muhammad to a cave). both came away from the experience with instruction for the composition of a new of religious practice varying from that around them (Muhammad contrasting his monotheism with the polytheism of the surrounding Meccan region) it seems to me that the Buddha does qualify here within certain accounts of his life/lives, but these are very extensive and may support all manner of assertion peace be with you, my kin Haramullah tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 13 05:11:42 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07096; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:31:20 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id BAA03595; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:11:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id BAA03591; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:11:37 -0400 (EDT) From: JHulvey@aol.com Received: by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA22126 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:11:42 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:11:42 -0400 Message-Id: <960413011141_190249859@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: JHulvey@aol.com Subject: Re: Thoughts on turning to Allah not away from women Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 96-04-12 21:25:01 EDT, you write: >As to your question why... I love my fellow darvishes and shaikh and master >as best as I can for they have loved me when I was incapable of love. It is >home we are all friends male female alike so it must be in all tariqas so >why the segrgation I don't know;) > > Dear James: Sometimes when we are in pain, etc, even that of a toothache, attitudes and feelings that we usually hold in check can surface. The correctness or abnormality of separating women notwithstanding, here is how your two letters sounded to me: The strong language and emphatic statements and almost wounded tone of the first letter speak loudly that this is an issue for you. Your second letter rather weakly denies the sentiments put forth so strongly in the first letter; it appears you'd rather look the other way (no pun intended!) in order to preserve your sense of belonging. Please take this observation in the spirit in which it is offered. Since I don't know you personally but only through your words, I am telling you what I hear. I am looking at your two letters in the same way I'd look at a piece of literature. As you well know, you don't owe me or anyone an explanation, just yourself. Perhaps not even that! I just felt moved to comment on this. So ignore my opinion, but I hope someone will not ignore my questions: Does every Sufi order practice this separation? What forms does it take? Why is it necessary? Sincerely, Julie From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 13 05:16:17 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07067; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:31:13 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id BAA03832; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:17:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id BAA03822; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:17:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02281; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:16:18 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:16:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Near death experiences (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:21:19 -0400 (EDT) From:tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from ["Eolai" ] >From habib@world.std.com Sun Apr 7 23:21:17 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA17515; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:21:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from halcyon.com (mail1.halcyon.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06863; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:17:31 -0400 Received: from [204.29.16.41] (blv-pm1-ip11.halcyon.com) by halcyon.com with SMTP id AA19447 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Sun, 7 Apr 1996 20:17:28 -0700 Message-Id: <199604080317.AA19447@halcyon.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Eolai" To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 20:17:18 +8 Subject: Near death experiences Reply-To: eolai@halcyon.com Cc: gnosis@netcom.com Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) I am a non-Muslim and physician researching the near death experiences reported (as far as I know among Christians) in which they enter a tunnel, see dead relatives, often see Jesus but return to tell of it. I admit I am a skeptic. But I never have heard of similar experiences among Muslims. Please correct me if I am wrong. If Muslims do have something akin to these experiences, what do they consist of? Do they experience God? I doubt that they would see Jesus unless it was in the context of other prophets as well. Or are these experiences solely the product of Christian conditioning? Thanks, Aindiachai Cladhaire ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "We need another and a wiser and perhaps a more mythical concept of animals.... We patronize them for their incompleteness, for their tragic fate of having taken form so far below ourselves. And therein we err, and greatly err. For the animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older and more complete than ours they moved finished and complete, gifted with extensions of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren, they are not underlings; they are other nations, caught with ourselves in the net of life and time, fellow prisoners of the splendor and travail of the earth." -Henry Beston, The Outermost House From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 13 06:29:55 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24595; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 02:39:12 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id CAA07384; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 02:30:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id CAA07374; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 02:30:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22376; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 02:29:56 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 02:29:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Cultural Understanding and Tariqas List (Was Re: Afterthought) To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 9 Apr 1996, Dien Alfred Rice wrote: > > Assalamu alaikum, > > On Tue, 9 Apr 1996 maarof@pc.jaring.my wrote: > > > It was enlightning to read various feedbacks especially on Pir O Murshid Hazrat > > Inayat Khan's mission in the West. Although I am a born Muslim, > > it was through reading books and discussion on Tasawuf (Sufism) that > > created my awareness toward Islam. Islam as peceived in general (Muslims and > > non-Muslims) is generally associated with "harsh" codes Shariah Laws but its > > spiritual essence (revealed/exposed through sufism) brings out its glorious > > beauty. > > Traditional Islam is clear in its beauty! Unfortunately today there > are movements which want to reduce Islam to just the shari`ah, and > turn it into a hollow, empty shell, of only commands of what to do > and what not to do, but with no spiritual depth. Unfortunately, too, > it is these movements that get most of the media publicity (they > make the news with their violent acts and their extremist views), and > thus they define the average non-Muslim's impression of Islam. > > However, the majority of Muslims do not follow this view, but > this viewpoint (the Salafi approach) is a big danger, since it > is completely opposed to Tasawwuf (Sufism). One of their goals > is to wipe Tasawwuf off of the face of the planet (this is not > an exaggeration). However, as long as Allah wills, Tasawwuf > will continue, and Islam will be a whole and spiritually deep > religion, and not the spiritually hollow, empty shell these other > people want. > > I find it strange that it seems some want to attack Sufism > as part of Islam, especially when clearly, in general, the best > known Sufis were Muslims. By attacking Tasawwuf in Islam like > this, these non-Muslim "Sufis" are unwittingly helping the > anti-Sufi movements wipe Tasawwuf out. It is an action they > perform from lack of understanding and knowledge, because they > do not yet perceive some of the inner dimensions of the shari`ah. It may help for non-Muslims on the Sufi path to realize that, in many places in the Islamic world, Sufis are currently under very strong attack. This is the case in some places because they are perceived as not being "Islamic" enough (meaning that they don't perceive things in the same narrow way as the self-appointed guardians of the faith). It is my understanding that in other places (e.g. Turkey), Sufis orders are under attack as being TOO Islamic (as well as providing a threatening mechanism for organizing against the status quo). So, when those of us who were not raised as Muslims say things about Sufism, we may not be aware of the deep history of experiences of those who were raised as Muslims. For those of us not raised in an Islamic culture, for example, we may casually say things like "You are God" without realizing the deep implications of this statement to someone raised with an Islamic background. Tariqas members who are from an Islamic background tend to have more experience with "Western" culture -- but still at times may have difficulties comprehending on a deep level such things as the obsession with "freedom." I'd like to suggest, Insh'Allah, we share some about how our cultural background may be influencing our own communication on tariqas. I'll start by saying that it disturbs me how much of my communication typically depends on use of the words "I" "me" and "my". Yours, Habib Rose From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 13 07:07:12 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01905; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 03:17:22 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id DAA09295; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 03:08:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id DAA09288; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 03:08:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29832; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 03:07:12 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 03:07:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: Sufism and Tassawuf To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Asalaamu aleikum. On Mon, 8 Apr 1996, Lilyan Ila wrote: [snip] > Why do those who wish to be Sufis without being Muslims gravitate toward > Arabic names and selective Islamic practices to a greater extent than > those of other traditions? I believe that this is largely an artifact of the way "Westerners" become a part of many spiritual traditions. Those who follow Buddhist traditions take on Buddhist names and may observe selective Buddhist practices. American Indians joke about a tribe called "The Wanabees" -- people who Wanabee Indians. I don't mean to disparage the process Westerners follow. There are probably as many genuine seekers in the West as anywhere. It is just that the approaches to spirituality will differ. In the West, Money has become God -- and provides very little basis for true spirituality. So, seekers will tend to latch onto ANY spiritual tradition that has some Baraka (spiritual power/blessing) to it -- as well as to some that I'm not so sure about! This may take on many forms -- apparent (or actual) diletantism, cultish behavior etc. In other parts of the world, living spiritual traditions exist, which can be incorporated as a natural part of one's life (e.g. I might have been born with the name Habib :-). In those places, however, there are other problems (and lessons to be learned) -- occasionally including tendencies toward authoritarianism, fanaticism etc. Yours, Habib Rose From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 13 07:34:38 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05191; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 03:43:48 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id DAA10144; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 03:35:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id DAA10132; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 03:35:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04080; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 03:34:39 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 03:34:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: Sufism and Tassawuf To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Lilyan Ila wrote: [snip] > But then why are all the Murshids also outwardly Muslim? Could this be a > coincidence, or is this not the case but is only true of the examples > given (and all I have heard of in my very limited experience)? Not all Murshids are Muslim, although the vast majority of them are. I am not speaking only of modern day "New Age" teachers, but, as alluded to in previous messages, it is my understanding that there has been Sufi teachers in traditional Sufi orders (e.g. Naqshbandi) who were Hindu and not (on the surface) Muslim. If I absolutely have to, I can try to track down some references. If you define Sufism as only possible within the constraints of Islam, then, not surprisingly, the only Sufi Teachers you will see are Muslims! If you define Sufism in a broader sense, you may see many Sufi Teachers who are not, on the surface, Muslim. Islam as a formal religion is a wonderful, extremely rich path, which clearly appears to work for you. It does not work for everybody. Accept the blessing of this religion for you, and accept the blessing that other people have other approaches that work for them. > Surely one's intention is primary, and the acts of either rejecting or > embracing forms are often if not usually nafs driven. > > I am still wondering, if all the Murshids are Muslim, but most Muslims are > neither murids nor murshids, is being Muslim not analogous to primary > school? Can one successfully complete undergraduate or graduate studies > without completing earlier grades? Of course home schooling is an option, > but the same material must be covered. Many practice the outward forms > and never progress beyond this. But does this mean it should be skipped? > And if so why? When I have asked this in the past, the responses have been > either angry & defensive, or based on faulty logic (i.e. "many people who > practice traditional forms behave badly, therefore practicing these forms > is bad"). People need to learn whatever lessons they need to learn, and, Insh'Allah, are given those vehicles that allow them to learn what they need. Islam as a formal religion is one of those vehicles. A very important, very popular vehicle, but just one. Yours, Habib Rose From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 13 08:00:01 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08065; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 04:11:00 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id EAA10800; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 04:00:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id EAA10767; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 04:00:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06819; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 04:00:02 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 04:00:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: comment on turning To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: O X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. On Fri, 12 Apr 1996, james hallam wrote: > salaam aleikum > > with all due respect, the position of women in Islam and Sufism, is to be > put behind men. Why are women treated as lower than men? In the sufi order > that I am in during prayers they cover their heads with scarf and are in > the back while men are in front. I believe Allah did not wish this > stratification to occur. It is to the benifit to men's egos that this > abnormal situation arose. Its baloney! It is important to understand which practices are truly Islamic and based upon the teaching and example of Muhammed (may peace be upon him), and which are cultural. My understanding is that MUCH of the apparent discrimination against women is based on cultural biases, and is not a function of Islam. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I would be surprised if there is anyplace in the Holy Qu'ran that specifically says that women should pray in the back. In a couple of the Sufi circles I have been in, women have been on one side of the room, men on the other. Is this not allowed? I really don't know. Furthermore, my understanding is that the main reason that the men are in front is from an attempt at modesty and a (cultural) perception that men are more sexually oriented than women. Forgive me for putting this bluntly, but it is felt that it would be improper for men to be staring at womens' backs during prayer. Please forgive me if saying this has offended anyone. My wife has pointed out that this is an incorrect assumption -- and that many women are as oriented to being disturbed in prayer by staring at mens' backs. Perhaps side by side would be a better approach for all concerned. Yours, Habib Rose