From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 13 08:06:55 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08718; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 04:15:19 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id EAA11408; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 04:08:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id EAA11401; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 04:08:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07574; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 04:06:56 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 04:06:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: SHAIKH SERIF AL-RIFAI- ZIKRS IN NYC (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 19:35:56 -0400 (EDT) From:tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [ZIAulHUQ@aol.com] >From habib@world.std.com Fri Apr 12 19:35:54 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA08387; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 19:35:54 -0400 (EDT) From: ZIAulHUQ@aol.com Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com (emout07.mx.aol.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02005; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 19:33:57 -0400 Received: by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA28249 for tariqas@world.std.com; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 19:33:56 -0400 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 19:33:56 -0400 Message-Id: <960412193355_512442607@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Cc: NurLuna@aol.com Subject: SHAIKH SERIF AL-RIFAI- ZIKRS IN NYC HU, Shaikh Serif of the Rifai-Marufi Order of Istanbul will be in NYC and will conduct Zikrs at 7:30 PM on May 5th, May 19th and May 26th to which all are welcome at " Fazil's Dance Studio" on the 3rd. floor at 743 8th Avenue ( between 46th and 47th streets). Now residing in North Carolina Shaikh Serif is the head of the Rifai-Marufi Order of America, and can be reached at: M. SERIF CATALKAYA RIFAI MARUFI ORDER OF AMERICA P.O. Box 296 CARRBORO, NC 27510 919-933-0772 For more information on the Zikrs in NYC call 212-265-4345 or the studio at 212-541-4455, or Email at this address. Also, if you wish, join Serif Baba and dervishes at the mehzar of Hz. Baba Bawa in Philadelphia on May 12th after noon prayers. HU From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 13 15:04:50 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05199; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 11:28:35 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA25013; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 11:14:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA25009; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 11:14:46 -0400 (EDT) From: ASHA101@aol.com Received: by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA10321; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 11:04:50 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 11:04:50 -0400 Message-Id: <960413110449_468949498@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: chistia@nauticom.net Subject: Re: Habib's further questions Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Habib, you wrote: >>>it is important to understand which practices are truly Islamic and based upon the teaching and example of Muhammed (may peace be upon him), and which are cultural.<<< a very interesting question as Muhmmed (pubh) and all other prophets, saints, and masters are human beings and therefore, if it is separable, you could say that they have a personal oriented side (which would be quite inseparable from the culture) and a devinely oriented side. In other words there is a side that is connected in a non hierarchical mode and is just like everybody else (i.e. same problems with worry about identity and same diseases and same problems with gravity and family relationships etc. -albeit they (the prophets) can serve as models, examplars, for handeling these situations). The prophets therefore are allways connected to culture, time, place, everything. Some people seem to think that such everydayness, such personal stuff, such human beingness is not religious, but mostly the great prophets have indeed been right there with the rest of us, sharing our superstitions, our simple little joys of life, our tastes, frustrations andfoiables .... And then there is that other side, the hierarchical side, which, I'd contend, never is truely prophet like if the personal side isn't there first (so to speak). In the hierarchical mode the prophet speaks for god and not for him/her self. So sometimes the prophets speak for themselves and sometimes for god, often, it seems, for both at the same time - perhaps you can never really separate the two. It might be like separating men from women, but you can't really separate male from female (try making the feminine in me stand outside the mosque while the masculine in me stands inside). So, it is not the separating off of what is cultural and what is not that is to me quite as important or possible, but academically probably you can do it -- how then to regard teaching? how then to separate teaching from example - a good table doesn't have to be like any other example of a good table although a good French Provincal table does need to be somehow like a good French Provincal exemplar, and on and on with with Platonic philosophies ... So, I know this is in no way a schollarly answer, or even exactly relating the teachings of a mystical branch of sufism that i know of ... it is just me, thinking about your good question and the deep realities that it brings up for me ... love, Asha From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 13 16:22:58 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26025; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:36:44 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA28996; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:19:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from spike.cc.bellcore.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA28992; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:19:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by spike.cc.bellcore.com id AA14456 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for tariqas@europe.std.com); Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:22:58 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:22:58 -0400 From: 25275-rana Message-Id: <199604131622.AA14456@spike.cc.bellcore.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Habib's further questions Cc: chistia@nauticom.net Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Aisha, I feel compelled to respond to, and agree with, your post. Sort of explains the "concept" of Jesus as both fully human and fully divine. Well done! Sehr > From tariqas-approval@europe.std.com Sat Apr 13 11:23:11 1996 > Delivery-Date: Sat, 13 Apr 96 11:23:13 -0400 > X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f > From: ASHA101@aol.com > Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 11:04:50 -0400 > To: tariqas@europe.std.com > Cc: chistia@nauticom.net > Subject: Re: Habib's further questions > Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com > Reply-To: tariqas@europe.std.com > Content-Length: 2486 > > Dear Habib, > you wrote: > >>>it is important to understand which practices are truly Islamic and based > upon the teaching and example of Muhammed (may peace be upon him), and > which are cultural.<<< > > a very interesting question as Muhmmed (pubh) and all other prophets, > saints, and masters are human beings and therefore, if it is separable, you > could say that they have a personal oriented side (which would be quite > inseparable from the culture) and a devinely oriented side. In other words > there is a side that is connected in a non hierarchical mode and is just like > everybody else (i.e. same problems with worry about identity and same > diseases and same problems with gravity and family relationships etc. -albeit > they (the prophets) can serve as models, examplars, for handeling these > situations). The prophets therefore are allways connected to culture, time, > place, everything. Some people seem to think that such everydayness, such > personal stuff, such human beingness is not religious, but mostly the great > prophets have indeed been right there with the rest of us, sharing our > superstitions, our simple little joys of life, our tastes, frustrations > andfoiables .... > And then there is that other side, the hierarchical side, which, I'd > contend, never is truely prophet like if the personal side isn't there first > (so to speak). In the hierarchical mode the prophet speaks for god and not > for him/her self. > So sometimes the prophets speak for themselves and sometimes for god, > often, it seems, for both at the same time - perhaps you can never really > separate the two. It might be like separating men from women, but you can't > really separate male from female (try making the feminine in me stand outside > the mosque while the masculine in me stands inside). So, it is not the > separating off of what is cultural and what is not that is to me quite as > important or possible, but academically probably you can do it -- how then > to regard teaching? how then to separate teaching from example - a good table > doesn't have to be like any other example of a good table although a good > French Provincal table does need to be somehow like a good French Provincal > exemplar, and on and on with with Platonic philosophies ... > So, I know this is in no way a schollarly answer, or even exactly relating > the teachings of a mystical branch of sufism that i know of ... it is just > me, thinking about your good question and the deep realities that it brings > up for me ... > love, Asha > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 12 22:51:34 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03017; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:31:06 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA06235; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:14:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from case.cyberspace.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA06231; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:14:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bdaniel ([206.100.176.149]) by case.cyberspace.com (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 0-11430) with SMTP id AAA29913 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 11:14:07 -0700 Message-Id: <316EDE76.104A@cyberspace.com> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:51:34 -0700 From: bdaniel@cyberspace.com (Brent Daniel) X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Jami Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Does anyone know where the Persian writings of Jami in their original might be available? Thanks, Brent Daniel From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 13 18:30:25 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06862; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:43:11 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA07311; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:32:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA07302; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from weaver.weaver.guilford.k12.nc.us by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02748; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:30:20 -0400 Received: by weaver.weaver.guilford.k12.nc.us id OAA18352; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:30:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:30:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Bob King X-Sender: bking@weaver To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Ways and Means In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Jawad Qureshi wrote: > the path of 'mystics,' and 'mysteries,' is the path that leads to > no where BUT confusion, and worst of all DELUSION. > > Whereas, if we look at the path of the Prophet's of Allah, may Allah be > send His blessings on all of them, their path is that path of certainty, Greetings again! I've been enjoying the interplay of following/seeking in the discussion of "what is sufism?" "does one need a teacher?" "does one need a tradition?" and related topics. Others have said this -- but I'll add in my own words anyway -- that there may be something universal in this interplay, as if both parts matter, both parts have meaning, with the balance needing to be struck by each person. Compassion and love to be shared for and by each on their path. I get the same feeling in a way about the interplay of mystery/certainty. Getting to the liquidity (to borrow a word from Jinavamsa), it may be possible to say that the real mystery is in the interplay of mystery and certainty and that the real certainty is in the certainty of mystery (and perhaps also in the certainty that each individual needs to find their own way -- which could account for the mystical thread which accompanies "traditional" religions of all stripes -- even though we love our group traditions and institutions). Anyway, a very stimulating discussion all! I hope this message is not a distraction. Thank you. Bob King From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 13 20:05:45 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23469; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:25:18 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA09824; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:09:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA09820; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:09:50 -0400 (EDT) From: GHADDAD@ccmail.sunysb.edu Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16710; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:05:56 -0400 Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by ccmail.sunysb.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #8051) id <01I3HWRZYYK09I58V7@ccmail.sunysb.edu> for tariqas@world.std.com; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:05:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:05:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Women's prayer in mixed congregation To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: <01I3HWRZZ2BM9I58V7@ccmail.sunysb.edu> X-Vms-To: in%"tariqas@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: State University of New York at Stony Brook Stony Brook, NY G. Fouad Haddad 13-Apr-1996 02:37pm EDT FROM: GHADDAD TO: Remote Addressee ( _tariqas@world.std.com ) Subject: Women's prayer in mixed congregation PRAYER OF WOMEN IN MIXED CONGREGATION ------------------------------------- The stipulations of the shari`a (law) concerning the prayer of women in mixed congregation are as follows [Preference comes before permission and the avoidance of evil before the practice of good hence the order followed below]: It is preferable to stay at home in absolute terms. It is permissible to pray in the mosque in mixed assembly, although it is preferable for women to avoid going out for prayer in mixed assembly despite their permission. Segregation between men and women must be observed both in entering and inside the mosque, and women pray behind men. When religion is in jeopardy, that is, TODAY, IT IS BEST TO GO TO THE MOSQUES AND HOMES WHERE GOD IS REMEMBERED, WHETHER THE GATHERING IS MIXED OR NOT. 1. It is preferable to stay at home a) according to the verse: "And stay in your houses" (33:33) Note: The verse is addressed to the Prophet's wives in particular, and to all women in general; b) according to the hadith: Umm Salama the Prophet's wife said: The Prophet said -- God's blessings be upon him: "The best mosques for women are the inner chambers of heir homes." Tabarani narrated it in "al-Mu`jam al-kabir" and Haythami said in "Majma` al-zawa'id" that its chain contains Ibn Luhay`a, who is subject to question among the experts of authentication; however, it is confirmed by the fact that Ahmad and Abu Ya`la narrate it in the form: "The best prayers for the women are in the inner chambers of their homes." c) according to the hadith of Umm Humayd the wife of Abu Humayd al-Sa`id. She once said to the Prophet: "Messenger of God, I long to pray with you." He replied: "I know that you love to say prayer with me but the prayer you offer in your chamber is more excellent than the prayer you offer in your courtyard, and the prayer which you offer in your courtyard is more excellent than the one your observe in the mosque of your tribe [i.e. the mosque nearest to your home], and your prayer in the mosque of your tribe is better than the one you offer in my mosque [in Madina]." After this she ordered a mosque built in the farthest and darkest quarter of her house and did all her prayers in it until she met God the Exalted. [I.e. she did not even go out to her courtyard or to the mosque of her tribe.] Ahmad narrated it in his "Musnad." Haythami said: "Its subnarrators are those of the sound (sahih) grade, except for `Abd Allah ibn Suwayd whom Ibn Hibban considered of the trustworthy (thiqa) grade." It is supported by Ibn Mas`ud's hadith in Abu Dawud (#570) wereby the Prophet (s) said the same words but in relation to women in general. 2. It is permissible to pray in the mosque in mixed assembly a) Because `Abd Allah ibn `Umar said that the Prophet (s) said: "When women ask permission for going to the mosque, do not prevent them" (Muslim, English 1:240 #884) and "Do not prevent God's maid-servants from going to the mosque" (Muslim #886) and "Do not prevent women from going to the mosque at night" (for `Isha prayer) (Muslim #888); Abu Hurayrah reports the same as #886 but with the ending: "but let them go out without perfuming themselves." (Abu Dawud, English 1:149 #565). This wording is found also in Muslim in the two hadiths of Zaynab al-Thaqafiyya the wife of `Abd Allah ibn `Umar and the hadith of Abu Hurayra (respectively #892-894); b) Because of the Prophet's wording in Umm Humayd's hadith above, which did not defend her but merely exhorted her not to go out. c) Ibn `Umar heavily rebuked those who were bent on preventing the women from attending the mosque: His son Bilal ibn `Abd Allah said: "By Allah we shall certainly prevent them," whereupo `Abd Allah ibn `Umar turned and reprimanded him more harshly than I [the sub-narrator] have ever seen him do before. He said: "I am narrating to you that which comes from God's Messenger and you have the audacity to say: ByAllah we shall certainly prevent them?!" (Muslim #885; cf. Abu Dawud #568) In another version the son is identified as Waqid, and the father thumps the son's chest as he says to him: "I am narrating to you the hadith of God's Messenger and you say: No?!" (Muslim #890) 3. It is preferable for women to avoid going out for prayer in mixed assembly despite their permission a) See Section 1. b) Because of what `Amra the daughter of `Abd al-Rahman said: I heard `A'isha (the Prophet's wife) say: "If God's Messenger had seen what new things the women have introduced (in their way of life) he would have definitely prevented them from going to the mosque, as the women of Bani Isra'il were prevented afore." (Muslim #895, Abu Dawud #569); c) Because of Ibn `Umar's caution, despite his insistence on their God-given permission, in that he reported that the Prophet said: "Do not prevent your women from visiting the mosques; but their houses are better for them (for praying)." (Abu Dawud #567). 4. Segregation between men and women must be observed both in entering and inside the mosque, and women pray behind men a) Because of Ibn `Umar and (more likely) `Umar's narration that the Prophet (s) indicated a certain door of his (?) mosque with the words: "Leave this door for women." Nafi` [the sub-narrator] said: "Ibn `Umar did not enter this door until his death. (Abu Dawud #462) Nafi` said: "`Umar ibn al-Khattab used to prohibit men to enter through the door reserved for women. (Abu Dawud #464). b) Because of the Prophet's explicit saying reported by Abu Hurayra: God's Messenger said: "The best rows for men are the first rows and the worst, the last rows; and the best rows for women are the last rows and the worst, the first." (Muslim #881) Imam Nawawi said in his commentary on Muslim ("Sharh sahih Muslim" ed. Shaykh Khalil al-Mays, Beirut: Dar al-Qalam, 3rd ed. 4:404 book of Salat ch. 28 #132): "The part of the statement concerning men is understood in absolute terms; the part of the statement concerning women, in relative terms, i.e. if they pray in mixed congregation. However, if they pray alone, then the same applies to them as for the men: the best rows are the first, and the worst rows, the last. What is meant by "worst rows," both for men and for women, is that there is the least reward and merit in them and that they are the farthest from the criteria of the law, and vice-versa concerning "the best." The only merit of the last rows for women in a mixed congregation is that these rows are the farthest removed from mixture with men, from their sight by women, and from the heart's fondness upon seeing their motions and hearing their voices and so forth, and vice-versa concerning the blameworthiness of their first rows. And God knows best." c) Because of Sahl ibn Sa`d's report: "I saw men having tied the ends of their lower garments around their necks, like children, due to shortage of cloth [because of poverty] and offering their prayers behind God's Messenger, Peace be upon him. One of the proclaimers said: O womenfolk, do not lift your heads [from prostration] until men raise theirs [and readjust their garments]." (Muslim #883). This shows that the women prayed behind the men, else there would have been no sense in specifically prohibiting them from raising their heads first. 5. When religion is in jeopardy, that is, today, it is best to go to the mosques and homes where God is remembered, whether the gathering is mixed or not. This is the opinion of many of the scholars today, and it is the opinion of our Naqshbandi shaykhs concerning mixed gatherings of dhikr. The latter -- mixed or not -- foster excellent habits, modesty, decency, and respect between men and women, certainly more than all the forms of mixed gatherings prevalent in modern life. They also act as an effective counterbalance to the pervasive taking-over of materialism and spiritual indifference typical of modern life. Therefore we must believe that the Prophet (s) also foresaw this and spoke of our times when he said not to prevent women from attending the mosque, in the light of the instructions expressed or understood in other hadiths, the term "mosque" including homes used as mosques where people gather for the remembrance of God. The modality of standing for prayer (men in front, women behind) is not subject to change, while the modality of separating between men and women in dhikr gatherings is less formal and might differ widely in strictness from East to West. With respect to cultural paradigms of modesty the best manners must be observed, and good manners are of the essence of religion. It is said that the good manners of the student can only be as good as the good manners of the shaykh (teacher), and that he who has no shaykh, his shaykh is shaytan. Therefore do not remain alone, and seek a genuine not an ignorant teacher. God said: "Believers: stay with the truthful ones." (9:119) Therefore, as Shah Naqshband said, "Our path is companionship [with the saints]; and goodness is in the gathering [of students with their shaykh]" (Shah Naqshband). In all these matters the only objective is remembrance of God, not of each other. And God knows best and to Him is the returning. Blessings and Peace on the Prophet, his Family, and his Companions. Naqshbandi-Haqqani Foundation of Ahl al-Sunna wal-Jama`a URL: http://www.best.com/~informe/haqqani/ [in 9 languages] Europe Mirror URL:http://www.ummah.org.uk/haqqani/ email: mateens@sybase.com, ghaddad@ccmail.sunysb.edu From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 13 19:29:10 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29863; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:41:55 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA11197; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:29:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA11193; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:29:05 -0400 (EDT) From: MFKimball@aol.com Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA23672 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:29:10 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:29:10 -0400 Message-Id: <960413152910_374772507@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Hindu Sufis (Was re: Sufism, sufism and Islam) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Yes, Rumi was a devout Muslim. See article in Sufi (The Nimatullahi Sufi Order Journal) Issue 17, Spring 1993, on his views of the Shariah, taken from his ecstatic poetry. He was also an expert on Islamic law. Michelle Kimball From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 13 19:17:28 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01544; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:44:55 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA10756; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:21:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA10752; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:21:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from homer11.u.washington.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21129; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:17:31 -0400 Received: from localhost by homer11.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW96.04/UW-NDC Revision: 2.33 ) id AA78450; Sat, 13 Apr 96 12:17:30 -0700 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:17:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Lilyan Ila To: tariqasnet Subject: Re: Sufism and Tassawuf In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 13 Apr 1996, Steve H Rose wrote: > > Not all Murshids are Muslim, although the vast majority of them are. I am > not speaking only of modern day "New Age" teachers, but, as alluded to in > previous messages, it is my understanding that there has been Sufi > teachers in traditional Sufi orders (e.g. Naqshbandi) who were Hindu and > not (on the surface) Muslim. If I absolutely have to, I can try to track > down some references. wa aleikum asalaam Habib You don't absolutely have to, but it would be nice :) > > If you define Sufism as only possible within the constraints of Islam, > then, not surprisingly, the only Sufi Teachers you will see are Muslims! > If you define Sufism in a broader sense, you may see many Sufi Teachers > who are not, on the surface, Muslim. > I would refer to Dr. Istrabadi's definition of Sufism vs. Tassawuf. I have seen examples in recent times of non Muslims who teach Sufism, but as concerns Murshids - the teachers of Tassawuf -I can find only Muslim examples. Of course I am very ignorant and can read only English which could be the problem, but when going to bookstores, libraries and in discussions I have only seen this. If it is true my eyes are closed, this could be the chance to open them. > Islam as a formal religion is a wonderful, extremely rich path, which > clearly appears to work for you. It does not work for everybody. Accept > the blessing of this religion for you, and accept the blessing that other > people have other approaches that work for them. > I accept these blessings with gratitude to the Most High, who sent thousands of prophets to convey His message, in as many forms as His diverse creation requires. My questions were only regarding Sufism and Tassawuf, and the phenomenon I have perceived (agreed could be entirely due to my flawed perception) of an intense attraction to the din of Islam coupled with a fear/loathing of commitment to it. We have seen this so eloquently expressed by our brother James Hallam whose attachment to his shaikh is I believe more profound than a need to belong. If it were only this, he could join any number of socially supportive networks that would not ask him to separate from so much that is comfortable and familiar. Gender issues certainly comprise a large portion of what is objectionable to many westerners. This is also the case within the umma (community of Muslims) as a quick browse through the Muslim usenet groups will convey. In this context, however, they are seen as issues of misinterpretation of Allah's message by ordinary people, rather than as evidence of any flaw in that message (istaghfirullah). And it is rather short-sighted of us I think to maintain the assumption that treatment of women in the west is somehow the gold standard. For example, I resent that the US court requires me to bear equal financial responsibility for my children, when it is I who bore them, nursed them (not an easy task, Jabreil's lovely poem notwithstanding:) and continue to provide them with a mother's love. I resent that women are expected to carry, bear, nurse and raise children in the margins of our lives. I resent seeing images of women's bodies everywhere in advertising and entertainment. I resent not being able to walk down the street without fear. I resent our worth as women being judged against an impossible standard of beauty, resulting in socially mitigated pathologies such as anorexia nervosa. This is a partial list of conditions I was relieved to be free of during my 2 year stay in Iran. I can compile another list that applies to that culture, however. With regard to women standing behind vs. to the side of men during prayer, there are many places including Iran where the latter is practiced and much of it has to do with the configuration of the space. There is a diversity of opinion among scholars on this issue, I believe. I have had the experience of praying with a man standing behind me and have found this very distracting (he was a non-Muslim who wished to observe us in our very small space). I do not find praying behind men distracting. There are fundamental differences in male and female sexuality that explain this phenomenon which I don't think are peculiar to myself. It is a mistake I think to assume that practices of women such as hair covering and position in prayer are for the benefit of men. It is said that the Prophet's daughter Hazrat Fatima received a blind man as a guest, taking care to cover as she would before any other male guest. She was asked "why do you bother, when he cannot see you? Her reply, "But I can see him". Lily From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 13 19:53:28 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05982; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:55:41 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA12755; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:55:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05147; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:53:34 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA12612; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:53:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:53:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199604131953.PAA12612@europe.std.com> X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Admin request Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Sat Apr 13 15:53:27 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA12606; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:53:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from halcyon.com (mail1.halcyon.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03912; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:50:19 -0400 Received: from [204.29.16.5] (blv-pm0-ip5.halcyon.com) by halcyon.com with SMTP id AA02959 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:50:17 -0700 Message-Id: <199604131950.AA02959@halcyon.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Eolai" To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 12:49:08 +8 Subject: unsubscribe Reply-To: eolai@halcyon.com Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) unsubscribe (unable to use "tariqas-request@world.std.com". ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "We need another and a wiser and perhaps a more mythical concept of animals.... We patronize them for their incompleteness, for their tragic fate of having taken form so far below ourselves. And therein we err, and greatly err. For the animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older and more complete than ours they moved finished and complete, gifted with extensions of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren, they are not underlings; they are other nations, caught with ourselves in the net of life and time, fellow prisoners of the splendor and travail of the earth." -Henry Beston, The Outermost House From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 13 19:47:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08146; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 16:02:33 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA12274; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:48:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA12267; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:48:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from comm.amtsgi.bc.ca ([198.53.172.252]) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02654; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:47:32 -0400 Received: from Nettle.islandnet.com by comm.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #5) id m0u8BID-000VsUC; Sat, 13 Apr 96 12:47 PDT Message-Id: Date: Sat, 13 Apr 96 12:47 PDT X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: al Matin Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Al Matin There is a stage upon which players play and have no audience, because eyes have not yet been made to see, nor ears to hear the interaction of these spheres, in a way which can relate beyond the mere dimensions of time, space, and things which dance with one another, in their highest form, conscious of themselves and one another: As they move from everything to nothing and than back again, as they turn on and off and on again like stroboscopic lights; picturing one frozen frame of history like beads upon a string for prayers to be said; they each are blessed as blessed as that link which said I was, before Adam and I was, before Isa. When the Bible or Qu'ran refers to We, and then leaves us within a few pages traveling from one dimension to the next, and from innocence to shame, right after having learned the names of everything in a gallant and fine display amongst hosts upon host of angels all bowing, except for one its faith, that cracks the pictures, craven images, icons, the notions, abstractions and the theories invented to explain the predicament that this audience has, while praying to the actors, who will not let themselves be seen. The strength, to cross over , past the separation, the abyss, an ocean falling off, a broken edge, an island floating aimlessly in space, needs something of the truth a child has when looking through its heart and racing toward freedom, notes the ocean as it parts, something of Bach's fugue, something of the cosmic sphere's extended by the deft and deaf master's symphonies, something of Ali's arm cutting space with a sword determined that the blade set a path for saints to walk upon, something of the mountain coming to the Prophet, something of the hand reaching out to Peter, while demonstrating walking upon water's something easy we can do and do better if only we'll surrender what we think we know with our judgments of each other about this eye for that tooth the Sabbath, and the Shariat if we will put aside the blind we cling to as the truth, all false belief and walk a path of pure and unrestricted faith and find the razor's edge as soft as a shinning black plumed flying bridge leading to a shore where actors act and players play and dancing through seven hills in heaven and thirty ethers come together making up a universe of vapors beyond the world of dreams to once again dance and play and pray and worship and spin remembering remembrance as cognizance breaks from a stone and gushes forth seeping through and even past everywhere.. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From Majordomo-Owner@world.std.com Sat Apr 13 19:53:28 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08950; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 16:04:34 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAB12613; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:53:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:53:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199604131953.PAB12613@europe.std.com> X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to Majordomo-Owner@world.std.com using -f To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: Majordomo@world.std.com Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE tariqas Reply-To: Majordomo@world.std.com Status: RO X-Status: -- eolai@halcyon.com has unsubscribed from tariqas. No action is required on your part. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 13 20:42:15 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29760; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 16:54:34 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA16092; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 16:42:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from relay3.jaring.my by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA16085; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 16:42:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from maarof@localhost) by relay3.jaring.my (8.7.1/8.7.1) id EAA13626; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 04:42:15 +0800 (MYT) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 04:42:15 +0800 (MYT) Message-Id: <199604132042.EAA13626@relay3.jaring.my> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Subject: Re: Sufism and Tassawuf (Women Behind Men) To: tariqas@facteur.std.com, tariqasnet In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Just to add the Lilyan Ila's experience: ... I have had the experience of praying with a man standing behind me and have found this very distracting (he was a non-Muslim who wished to observe us in our very small space). I do not find praying behind men distracting. There are fundamental differences in male and female sexuality that explain this phenomenon which I don't think are peculiar to myself. .... -------------------------------------- One wonderful experience I have praying with a woman (BTW she's my wife) during subuh or dawn prayer. We prayed together (she's quite near on my right at the back). Maybe this aspect of of husband and wife praying together, should also be considered the context of discussion about mixed praying in Islam. Wassalam. maarof@pc.jaring.my From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 13 21:17:34 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12956; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 17:31:05 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA18287; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 17:17:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA18277; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 17:17:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA23829 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 17:17:34 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 17:17:34 -0400 Message-Id: <960413171733_469153398@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: women in the West and elsewhere [was Re: Sufism and Tassawuf Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: hello Lily and all, in peace. This was a very beautiful posting. I have a good friend (California blonde) who is married to a man who is Kuwaiti. She spent some time there with him, visiting family (a year before the Iraqi military entrance into that country), and said she felt perfectly safe even walking alone on the streets after midnight. May that part be on our entire planet one day! It is stunning the variety of forms that oppression of the woman (not "female part of the human being") takes from society to society. Would you mind explaining how you interpret the reply in your last story? What do you take that story to be teaching? Thank you. Jinavamsa In a message dated 96-04-13 15:23:21 EDT, you write: > >I would refer to Dr. Istrabadi's definition of Sufism vs. Tassawuf. I >have seen examples in recent times of non Muslims who teach Sufism, but as >concerns Murshids - the teachers of Tassawuf -I can find only Muslim >examples. Of course I am very ignorant and can read only English which >could be the problem, but when going to bookstores, libraries and in >discussions I have only seen this. If it is true my eyes are closed, this >could be the chance to open them. > > >> Islam as a formal religion is a wonderful, extremely rich path, which >> clearly appears to work for you. It does not work for everybody. Accept >> the blessing of this religion for you, and accept the blessing that other >> people have other approaches that work for them. >> > >I accept these blessings with gratitude to the Most High, who sent >thousands of prophets to convey His message, in as many forms as His >diverse creation requires. > >My questions were only regarding Sufism and Tassawuf, and the >phenomenon I have perceived (agreed could be entirely due to my flawed >perception) of an intense attraction to the din of Islam coupled with a >fear/loathing of commitment to it. > >We have seen this so eloquently expressed by our brother James Hallam >whose attachment to his shaikh is I believe more profound than a need to >belong. If it were only this, he could join any number of socially >supportive networks that would not ask him to separate from so much that >is comfortable and familiar. > >Gender issues certainly comprise a large portion of what is objectionable >to many westerners. This is also the case within the umma (community of >Muslims) as a quick browse through the Muslim usenet groups will convey. >In this context, however, they are seen as issues of misinterpretation of >Allah's message by ordinary people, rather than as evidence of any flaw in >that message (istaghfirullah). > >And it is rather short-sighted of us I think to maintain the assumption >that treatment of women in the west is somehow the gold standard. For >example, I resent that the US court requires me to bear equal financial >responsibility for my children, when it is I who bore them, nursed them >(not an easy task, Jabreil's lovely poem notwithstanding:) and continue to >provide them with a mother's love. I resent that women are expected to >carry, bear, nurse and raise children in the margins of our lives. I >resent seeing images of women's bodies everywhere in advertising and >entertainment. I resent not being able to walk down the street without >fear. I resent our worth as women being judged against an impossible >standard of beauty, resulting in socially mitigated pathologies such as >anorexia nervosa. > >This is a partial list of conditions I was relieved to be free of during >my 2 year stay in Iran. I can compile another list that applies to that >culture, however. > >With regard to women standing behind vs. to the side of men during prayer, >there are many places including Iran where the latter is practiced and >much of it has to do with the configuration of the space. There is a >diversity of opinion among scholars on this issue, I believe. > >I have had the experience of praying with a man standing behind me and >have found this very distracting (he was a non-Muslim who wished to >observe us in our very small space). I do not find praying behind men >distracting. There are fundamental differences in male and female >sexuality that explain this phenomenon which I don't think are peculiar to >myself. > > It is a mistake I think to assume that practices of women such as hair >covering and position in prayer are for the benefit of men. It is said >that the Prophet's daughter Hazrat Fatima received a blind man as a guest, >taking care to cover as she would before any other male guest. She was >asked "why do you bother, when he cannot see you? Her reply, "But I can >see him". > >Lily > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 14 04:42:33 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22310; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 17:56:11 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA20123; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 17:43:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA20116; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 17:43:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hisar.cc.boun.edu.tr by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16604; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 17:40:36 -0400 Received: by hisar.cc.boun.edu.tr (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA28643; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 00:42:33 -0400 Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 00:42:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Zafer Barutcuoglu X-Sender: barutcuo@hisar.cc.boun.edu.tr To: Tariqas List Subject: Buddha in the Koran Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: (21:85) "Ismail, Idris, Zulkifl; they all were of the patient ones." (38:48) "Also remember Ismail, Elyese, and Zulkifl. They all were of the elect." Zulkifl is mentioned only mentioned in these verses in the Holy Kuran as far as I'm aware. My limited knowledge of Arabic says ZulKifl means "Of Kifl", Kifl being an area about today's India. I know no other figure in the history of that part of the world who could be a prophet, and it's probable to me that Of Kifl carries a meaning that this person is not just anyone of Kifl, but rather a figure of authority in that area, and remember Buddha was a prince. This idea is not original to me, yet I don't know if it has exceeded being an interesting topic of discussion in small circles, so if anybody has any knowledge in favor of or against this idea, I'll be delighted to hear. Regards, //\ 0-0 +---oOO (_) OOo---------------------------------------------------------+ | - Zafer Barutcuoglu | | Undergradute at Bogazici University Mathematics Department | | E-mail: barutcuo@boun.edu.tr | | URL : HTTP://mercan.cmpe.boun.edu.tr/~zafer | | Voice : +90 (212) 270 5345 | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ |"In questions of science the authority of a thousand is not worth the | | humble reasoning of a single individual." | | -Galileo Galilei | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 13 22:56:41 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00930; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 19:26:25 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA25297; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 18:59:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA25290; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 18:59:47 -0400 (EDT) From: informe@best.com Received: from blob.best.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13644; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 18:56:48 -0400 Received: from [204.156.129.34] (informe.vip.best.com [204.156.129.34]) by blob.best.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id PAA17161 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:56:41 -0700 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:56:41 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Masters of Wisdom Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: As-salaamu alaikum, Friends As Allah permits and inspires us, I would like to invite discussion about a topic raised in John G. Bennett's book, _The Masters of Wisdom_. As you may know, J.G. Bennett was a protege of the Caucasian mystic and adventurer G.I. Gurdjieff, and continued his studies and researches after Gurdjieff's death. _Masters_ was his final book, and it is "an esoteric history of the spiritual unfolding of life on this planet." It is unfinished, lacking the last chapter, which was to describe the operation of his postulated Masters in the modern world, and was first published in 1977. It has also been unavailable for some time and was just republished by Bennett Books in New Mexico. After his association with Gurdjieff Bennett travelled extensively and met a number of Sufi shaykhs. Gurdjieff himself was supposed to have had connections with Sufi groups, such as the Naqshbandis and the shadowy Sarmoun Brotherhood, and apparently Bennett wanted to follow this trail further. In his later years Bennett met a Turkish shaykh named Hasan Shushud who left a considerable influence on him. Bennett's thesis about the Masters is substantially the same as Shaykh Hasan's, as he presents it in his own book, _Masters of Wisdom of Central Asia_ (which is a translation of the _Rashahat Ain al-Hayat_, a historical record and hagiography of Central Asian shaykhs from whom the Kubravi, Halveti, Naqshbandi, Yasavi, and other turuk descend.) Bennett presents what might be called the universalist theory of spiritual development, taking us back 38,000 years. Bennett hypothesizes that the "carrier wave" of spiritual development passed through various organizations over the centuries, finally shifting from the Magi in Persia and Central Asia into Islam, specifically into the line of shaykhs descending from Kwaja (master) Yusuf Hamadani (1048-1140 CE). Like Shaykh Hasan, Bennett separates sufism into two parallel streams of development, which I will describe in his own words. "I must first make a distinction between Sufism, as generally understood, and the teaching of the Masters, who are often described as Sufis. We can separate the Sufis of Mesopotamia, Syria, Africa, and Spain - that is, the "Southern Sufis", from those of Persia, Turkestan, Afghanistan, and the Caucasus - that is, the "Northern Sufis". The Sufis of Turkey were between the two and shared some of the ideals of both. "The southern Sufis came mostly from countries that had been Christian, and they adopted the Christian concept of God as Love and made union in love with God the highest aim of the spiritual path. In this, of course, they agreed with the aspirations of the Christian saints. "The Northern Sufis understood the human situation more profoundly and knew that the secret of love is in the death of the self by way of humiliation and abandonment. In this, they were closer to the Assyrian Christians for whom death with Christ was the necessary condition of resurrection. The notion of the _void_, which was shared by the Buddhists and Zoroastrians, was expressed in the doctrine of annihilation, _mahw wa fana_. They even adopted the term _itlaq_, liberation, from the Buddhist idea of the _Arahant_, liberated man. "Such ideas were already being expressed by Muslim teachers in Bagdhad, such as Bayazid Bistami and Junaid, before the tenth century, but they remained within the orthodox tradition, according to which salvation is assured to everyone who accepts belief in the Unity of Allah and the prophetic status of Muhammad (s.a.w.s) with no further obligation than to carry out religious duties and conform to the moral precepts of the Qur'an. "Although there were great saints among the Southern Sufis, there was not the true doctrine of transformation that I have referred to as the great innovation introduced by the Khwajagan (masters of wisdom - H)." - p. 90 -------- "An important distinction between the Masters and the Southern Sufis is to be seen in the teacher-pupil relationship. The Southern Sufis were possibly influenced by the idea of the guru in India and by the insistence upon complete obedience to the superior in Christian monasteries. The shaykh accepted complete responsibility for the spiritual welfare of his murid...and in return the disciple gave up all possessions and set himself to conform as perfectly as possible to the way of life shown by the shaykh. The extinction of self was to come through submission and obedience. It was called _fana fi'l-shaykh_, which means totally to lose oneself in one's teacher. When this was attained, the next step was _fana fil'-rasul_, or self-extinction in the Prophet (s.a.w.s) of Allah, leading finally to _fana fillah_, or extinction in Allah. "The Masters of Wisdom entirely rejected this path. They would never allow their pupils to show them personal reverence, and they insisted that Muhammad (s.a.w.s) rejected every suggestion that he himself was the way by which others could reach Allah." - p. 93 ------------ "There are four stages in the elimination of egoism: "_Fana-i ahkam_. This is not a true elimination or fana because it refers to the external world rather than the self...It brings him face to face with the need to find within himself the reality that he cannot find outside. "_Fana-i afal_. This is the great and awful step that not many are able to make. It comes with the realization that the "inner life" is no more than a dream world...This acceptance only comes with repeated experience of 'waking and seeing'. "_Fana-i sifat_.This again is a very great step because it opens the way into the real world - the _alam-i imkan_. This is the world where free acts of will are possible. It is the true "inner world" we lose contact with when we believe in our dreams. All spiritual paths must lead to this step, but because it takes us beyond the mind, no words can adequately describe it. "_Fana-i zat_. This is the complete liberation from self that enables Divine Love to take posession of the soul. All separateness is overcome and the creature becomes the Creator [Note - Shaykh Hasan is very emphatic that such union cannot occur.] Here, we must recall the distinction made in Chapter 6 between the Southern Sufis and the Masters of Wisdom. The former also speak of _fana_ but interpret this in a personal sense. There are also four stages: _fana fil-shaikh_ _fana fil-pir_ _fana fi'l-rasul_ _fana fillah_ "In this path the murid learns to create a mental image of his shaykh and holds onto it until he is able to feel that the shaykh is really present. He represents his teacher as possessing all the qualities to which he aspires and models his behavior on him. When the shaykh perceives that the power of creating a mental image has been acquired, he directs the attention of the murid to the pir, that is, the founder of the brotherhood to which they both belong... "When I met the last of the malawi chelebi in Aleppo, he told me that he was constantly aware of the image of Jalal ad-din Rumi, who had promised to meet all his faithful dervishes at the moment of death and bring them into the presence of Allah. It was evident that this weas a tangible reality for him; but I could also see that it prevented him from going further. He had, indeed, experienced the third stage, _fana f'il-rasul_, losing oneself in the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s), but this had occurred only once and he did not look for its return. "The final stage is _fana fillah_, which is reached only by the fewest of the few. This stage is the same as the _fana-i zat_ of the Masters but it is interpreted as union with Allah and realization the Allah is the sole substance, _wahdat-i wujud_. This way can lead to pantheism and the loss of contact with the supreme Will. - p. 119-120 ----------- I have only read about this sort of distinction in Bennett and in Shaykh Hasan's books. Can any of of you out there add any other information about this way of looking at the Path? Salaams, Hamza From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 13 23:29:16 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08505; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 19:45:42 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA27866; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 19:29:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA27859; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 19:28:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA18772; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 09:29:17 +1000 (EST) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 09:29:16 +1000 (EST) From: Dien Alfred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: comment on turning In-Reply-To: <316ed6c7.38453166@smtp.charm.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 12 Apr 1996, Anthony Teelucksingh wrote: [...] > The > usual claptrap that islam made the sexes equal in theory does not > even begin to explain the day-to-day differences in equality in > practice. Let's remember, Muslims don't only live in the Middle East, but Muslim countries extend from West Africa to a large region in Bosnia to Chechnya to Indonesia. I am myself half Indonesian, and I haven't really noticed any oppression of women in Indonesia at all, in my own travels, or among my relatives. I admit, it is easy to confuse oppression due to culture with oppression due to religion, but if we remember that Muslims are not only in the Middle East, but also in Indonesia, in the Caucasus mountains, in regions of China, etc., then maybe it will help us realize the distinction between religion and culture. Peace, Farid ud-Dien Rice From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 13 23:40:49 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10744; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 19:54:59 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA28764; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 19:40:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA28738; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 19:40:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA16282; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 09:40:49 +1000 (EST) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 09:40:49 +1000 (EST) From: Dien Alfred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: comment on turning In-Reply-To: <960412192649_468603454@emout04.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > >with all due respect, the position of women in Islam and Sufism, is to be > >put behind men. Why are women treated as lower than men? In the sufi order > >that I am in during prayers they cover their heads with scarf and are in > >the back while men are in front. I believe Allah did not wish this > >stratification to occur. It is to the benifit to men's egos that this > >abnormal situation arose. Its baloney! I have prayed where men and women were still separated, but side by side (eg. men on the left side of the room, women on the right). Perhaps one reason for the separation of the sexes is so that sexual thoughts don't interfere with spiritual ones. Separation of the sexes isn't unique to Islam - for example, you also find it in traditional Zen Buddhism, where monks and nuns are separate. However, in my unscholared opinion, I do think many Muslim (Sufi and non-Sufi) groups go way too far in their gender segregation practices. Usually, I think this is a reflection of the culture the people are from. Being half-Indonesian, I am not used to the extreme (it seems to me) form of gender-segregation _some_ Muslims from the Middle East and from India/Pakistan practice. Peace, Farid ud-Dien Rice From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 14 00:01:37 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17163; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:11:39 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA00067; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:01:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA00063; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:01:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA17418; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 10:01:38 +1000 (EST) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 10:01:37 +1000 (EST) From: Dien Alfred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: women in the West and elsewhere [was Re: Sufism and Tassawuf In-Reply-To: <960413171733_469153398@emout09.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 13 Apr 1996 Jinavamsa@aol.com wrote: > This was a very beautiful posting. I have a good friend (California blonde) > who is married to a man who is Kuwaiti. She spent some time there with him, > visiting family (a year before the Iraqi military entrance into that > country), and said she felt perfectly safe even walking alone on the streets > after midnight. May that part be on our entire planet one day! It is stunning > the variety of forms that oppression of the woman (not "female part of the > human being") takes from society to society. Assalamu alaikum, My mother, who is Indonesian, has told me she feels relatively safe walking around in Indonesian cities at night, whereas she doesn't feel as safe walking around at night here in Australia. Though this could partly be because cities like Jakarta never sleep, and there are always people around. Farid ud-Dien Rice From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 14 00:18:38 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28196; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:36:41 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA01473; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:18:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA01460; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:18:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA20221; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 10:18:38 +1000 (EST) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 10:18:38 +1000 (EST) From: Dien Alfred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Masters of Wisdom In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum, Thanks for that interesting message, Hamza! I think I have also read about this distinction between "northern" and "southern" Sufis in one of the books by Murat Yagan, who is originally from Abkhazia, one of the areas in the Caucasus mountains (near Chechnia). I don't remember the title of the book, though. I also didn't read much of it - I was just browsing through it in the bookstore. I find this topic interesting, and I know very little about it.... I plan to find out more, insha-Allah. I have recently been looking into Zen Buddhism, and this "northern" Sufism sounds like it may be closer to Zen Buddhism than the "southern" Sufism (if such a distinction is appropriate). Peace, Farid ud-Dien Rice From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 14 00:36:52 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04225; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:53:43 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA02448; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:38:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA02444; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:38:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orion.it.luc.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28254; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:36:53 -0400 Received: (from stourk@localhost) by orion.it.luc.edu (8.6.13/8.6.12) id TAA73958; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 19:36:52 -0500 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 19:36:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Sonia Tourk To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: hijab (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: BismAllahi ar-Rahmani ar-Rahim In the name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful Assalamu Alaikum, Peace be upon you all There have been a lot of postings about women in general and hijab in particular lately, and I didn't respond as I was wary of being caught up in the fray. However, I felt I should write when recently I read a book by Alice Walker called *In Love and in Trouble*, which is an anthology of short stories. The first story concerns an African-American woman who is marrying a Muslim man, and she doesn't understand why the women in her fiance's religion have to cover their hair and sit apart from the men; it really bugs her. As I was reading the story, I wanted to physically jump in and start talking to the woman, it bothered me so much how she had been so misled and thought of it as oppressive. Of course, I couldn't step into the story:) Thus, Alhamdulillah I am looking at this as my oppurtunity to give a women's perspective on hijab. I was a bit surprised at how many of our brothers on the net got so involved in this; anyway this is from a 2-X Chromosome netter:) Hijab makes women to to be respected for who they are, not what they look like. Since I started wearing hijab it is impossible for people to judge me based on anything except what I do; i.e. they can no longer judge me based on what I look like (Well, perhaps they can but to a *very* limited extent). Having grown up in American society, this is no small deal. Two of my best friends in high school had debilitating eating disorders. Alhamdulillah, Thank God, they're physically recovered now, but what is scary is that their attitudes regarding themselves and how they look still exists. Another friend at Smith, a very feminist college, had been bulimic and anorexic. Although she was no longer able to run at all, or walk fast, or do anything requiring physical exertion for an extended period of time because of how much her body had been ravaged, she was glad that she had had the disorders because she was no longer fat. This is the skewed mentality. Women in this society, and in every materialistic society, are judged in terms of how they look much more than men. We all know of the "meat-market" mentality. We are all always surrounded by these billboards of young women. This is the "twentieth century?" This is the West, and yes I feel 100% comfortable rejecting these aspects of it. One of the most precious moments of my life was when I observed an Indian gentleman walking with his grandmother in the city of Chicago. They were going at an easy pace, talking to each other. They were like an island unto themselves. I realized that, Insha'Allah if and when I become older, I wanted to be treated like this grandmother. I wanted to be respected and loved for who I had become. Our alternative is to spend our old age yearning for our youth and trying to regain it. Thus, for me the proof has been in the pudding. If Western society truly honored and respected women then perhaps I would be more on the defensive; indeed perhaps I never would have started to wear hijab. Any feminist would agree that by and large in this society women are objectified, valued only for their youth and beauty. I love Islam for honoring women as human beings. I love Islam for recognizing that both men and women should be shy before Allah, Whose Presence we are always in. Oftentimes I'll wear my hijab because it is such an honor, even if I am alone inside of my house. I love my shaykh for being a living, breathing example of true Islam and for always honoring women. There have been times at gatherings where he will simply go and sit and talk to the women, answering questions and sitting with them. He addresses the spiritual development of the females on the path, as he does for the men. This is living Islam. Any wisdom in this comes from Allah Ta'ala, with the blessings of my Shaykh, Shaykh Muhammad Hisham al-Kabbani. Any mistakes come from me. Peace and blessings on the Beloved Prophet, his noble family, and companions. Your sister, Sonia From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 14 01:03:38 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08291; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 21:10:15 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA03395; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:59:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from argon.GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA03391; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:59:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from eprice@localhost) by argon.GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA20582; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 18:03:39 -0700 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 18:03:38 -0700 (MST) From: Ellen L Price To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Masters of Wisdom In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: You might have picked up Murat Yagan's book, "I come From Behind Kaf Mountain," or "The Teachings of Kebzeh." Ellen On Sun, 14 Apr 1996, Dien Alfred Rice wrote: > > Assalamu alaikum, > > Thanks for that interesting message, Hamza! > > I think I have also read about this distinction between "northern" > and "southern" Sufis in one of the books by Murat Yagan, who is > originally from Abkhazia, one of the areas in the Caucasus mountains > (near Chechnia). I don't remember the title of the book, though. > I also didn't read much of it - I was just browsing through it > in the bookstore. > > I find this topic interesting, and I know very little about it.... > I plan to find out more, insha-Allah. > > I have recently been looking into Zen Buddhism, and this "northern" > Sufism sounds like it may be closer to Zen Buddhism than the "southern" > Sufism (if such a distinction is appropriate). > > Peace, > > Farid ud-Dien Rice > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 14 02:17:15 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10114; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:35:14 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA07652; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:20:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA07646; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:20:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay3.jaring.my by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04304; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:17:23 -0400 Received: (from maarof@localhost) by relay3.jaring.my (8.7.1/8.7.1) id KAA26963; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 10:17:15 +0800 (MYT) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 10:17:15 +0800 (MYT) Message-Id: <199604140217.KAA26963@relay3.jaring.my> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Subject: Re: Buddha in the Koran To: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Zafer, "Zulkifli" sounds to me an Arabic pronounciation of a Chinese name. Is "Zulkifli" = "Lao Tze"? Wallahualam. ps. In my 'biased" feeling towards Zulkifli. I had hoped he was the messenger that was sent to South-East Asia, which at present have a large (but by Allah's will -- "hidden" from ummah consciousness) population of Muslims in the world. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 14 02:48:33 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14687; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:50:43 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA09487; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:50:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14065; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:48:39 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA09368; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:48:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:48:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199604140248.WAA09368@europe.std.com> X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [ZIAulHUQ@aol.com] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Sat Apr 13 22:48:32 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA09350; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:48:31 -0400 (EDT) From: ZIAulHUQ@aol.com Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13798; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:47:46 -0400 Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA22083 for Tariqas@world.std.com.; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:47:45 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:47:45 -0400 Message-Id: <960413224745_271325917@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: Tariqas@world.std.com Subject: SHAIKH SERIF AL-RIFAI IN NYC IN MAY HU, Shaikh Serif of the Rifai-Marufi Order of Istanbul will be in NYC and will conduct Zikrs at 7:30 PM on May 5th, May 19th and May 26th to which all are welcome at " Fazil's Dance Studio" on the 3rd. floor at 743 8th Avenue ( between 46th and 47th streets). Now residing in North Carolina Shaikh Serif is the head of the Rifai-Marufi Order of America, and can be reached at: M. SERIF CATALKAYA RIFAI MARUFI ORDER OF AMERICA P.O. Box 296 CARRBORO, NC 27510 919-933-0772 For more information on the Zikrs in NYC call 212-265-4345 or the studio at 212-541-4455, or Email at this address. Also, if you wish, join Serif Baba and dervishes at the mehzar of Hz. Baba Bawa in Philadelphia on May 12th after noon prayers. HU From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 14 03:25:05 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28821; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 23:39:45 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA11634; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 23:25:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA11630; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 23:25:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Surfa.SineWave.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24644; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 23:24:39 -0400 Received: from gale (m-05.IP1.SineWave.com [206.13.48.37]) by Surfa.SineWave.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA29517 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:20:51 -0700 Message-Id: <31707011.36A1@sinewave.com> Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:25:05 -0700 From: Gale X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Buddhism and Islam Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A Dear Tariqas Enthusiasts, The topic on the relationship between Islam and Buddhism shows far more tension than harmony, which makes me question the validity of associating the Quranic zulkifl with Buddha  and especially amongst the sunna theological commentators -- unless it is some esoteric symbolism that seems to have not been known to the early Muslims. Otherwise why would there have been such a systematic destruction of Buddhist monasteries and libraries. As early as the mid 8th century, the Korean Buddhist Ou Kong writes about purposely avoiding the Muslim-occupied parts of Afghanistan, because of the danger it imposed to Buddhists, as he made his way to India. And the 9th century Kalachakra Tantra (one of the most important for the later Tibetan schools, ie. Gelugpa) prophesizes: about "Madhumati" as a false impostor who would destroy much of Buddhism  of course something similar happened when Mahmud of Ghazna destroyed the main Buddhist learning centers of India, especially Nalanda, in the 12th century. The Tibetan version of armageddon in some of the Shambala myths, or in the Khotanese versions with the coming of Maitreya, pitches the battle between Buddhism and Islam. (this info I remember while researching at the Tibetan Archives in Dharamsala in the 80s, although I do not remember the title of the exact source). As Islam pushed into Central Asia, many of the Muslim rulers saw themselves as fighting a holy war to destroy Buddhism, and this destruction was quite systematic. Even some Sufis, such as Fahr aldin Razi went as far as to deny Hinduism as a part of the prophetic tradition, whereas other Muslim traditions, eg, al-Biruni, and others, included Hindus in this line as a result of identifying Ibrahim with the Arabic barahima for brahmans. At the positive side of the picture, the most frequent Arabic titles for Buddha are al-budd (in Persian: but) and budasf or budisfiya, the latter referring to bodhisattva. Shahrastani in the 10th century actually writes that Buddhism is "very near to the teachings of the Sufis" and identified it as a "search for Truth" Shahrastani goes on to say that Buddha is al-Hadir. And a 19th Persian text on Tibet refers to the statues of Buddha as al-Hadir; the Naqsbandiyya in Central Asia, who were instrumental for bringing Islam to this Buddhist region, also made this identification. (if anyone on Tariqas can help me with understanding this word al-Hadir, I would appreciate it; my understanding is that it deals with "multiple personality" and thus Enoch, Hermes, Elias, Jeremiah, etc. are al-Hadir; this transliteration may also be different because my source for this is from a French text through the Vaticans Pontificio Instituto di Studi Arabi e dIslamisticii). Another Sufi, Ala al-Dawla al-Simnani represented the Buddhists on their behalf to the royal Iranian court. An interesting piece of historical trivia is that the famous Central Asian Buddhist cave temples at Toyug, near Turfan, became a seat for Qalandar dervishes who considered the caves as the abode of the "seven sleepers". And in the Tarim basin during the 14th century, the local Buddhist monastery and a Sufi tekke co-existed side-by-side. We should be reminded that by these centuries, Buddhism in Central Asia and the China basin was almost exclusively in its tantric form of vast iconography  the northern school of the Chan-HuaYen relationship already having succumbed for the most part to the more popular southern school at the end of the Tang. Other interesting tidbits: When the jesuit missionary expeditions  Matteo Ricci, Bento de Gois, Francis Xavier -- were making their way to Tibet in the middle ages, they associated with Muslim merchants in India for receiving travel instructions and info on the culture. What they received was the Indian Muslim perception that Tibetan Buddhism was a form of Christianity (either spoken of as authentic or degenerate, but usually the latter). The Portugese Jesuit, Antonio de Andrade, actually thought the Tibetans were a lost Christan group that became mixed with the indigenous religions when he encountered them. Finally, I have to admit that in all my research in this area, the term zulkifl has never appeared. And I have never seen any word associated with India or a region thereof even similar to it. Budd and budasf are consistent terms for Buddha in Muslim literature, identifying Buddha or the community he founded in the Quran is something quite different. Blessings to all, Nur Jemal Gale From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 14 04:34:26 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23904; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 00:48:55 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA15349; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 00:35:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA15343; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 00:35:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Surfa.SineWave.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19780; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 00:33:45 -0400 Received: from gale (m-04.IP1.SineWave.com [206.13.48.36]) by Surfa.SineWave.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA29748 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 21:29:58 -0700 Message-Id: <31708052.540D@sinewave.com> Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 21:34:26 -0700 From: Gale X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Tariqas Subject: Buddha/Islam Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: This is just a brief postscript as an afterthought to my previous posting regarding the word zulkifl. In none of the languages of the subcontinent that I can speak or have some familiarity with is there a consonant F -- except in urdu which is a later development. This sound is neither found in pali or sanskrit. It would be expected that there should be some kind of etymological root-word relationship to be found if the Quranic kifl refers to India or a region thereof. Another reason to further demote the possibilities of this word interpretation. Blessings, Nur Jemal From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 14 06:54:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22168; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 03:10:34 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id CAA21755; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 02:55:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id CAA21748; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 02:55:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from comm.amtsgi.bc.ca ([198.53.172.252]) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20018; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 02:53:43 -0400 Received: from Piers.islandnet.com by comm.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0u8LhC-000VsJC; Sat, 13 Apr 96 23:54 PDT Message-Id: Date: Sat, 13 Apr 96 23:54 PDT X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: al Wali Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: al Wali When Isa met at the tavern with the drunks, and the jug broke in Rumi's hands, and El Halaj stirred the scandal which resounded throughout history, the obediant shuddered. These are Allah's friends who offend who step across the boundaries of religious social propriety and up tight sobriety and they were friends of those who knew a different type of faithfulness. Why would the bench sitters not enter the Mosque? What did they know? These magi who blew away the knots in time's tattered rope, and like an echo, resounded, piercing eternity leaving the voice of Melchaizedck to rize. Reverberating from drums of Ibraham's thirteen tribes across the deserts, intoned by both his son's who misunderstood, and said "It is all Torah" or "It's all Shariat", El hum du lelah, say: ayawa (yes) to order! But when thrown into the denizen of chaos reach out in faith and say al Wali knowing very well that Allah has more friends than two most of whom enjoy a place in a pit with heat blowing its passion through hell. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 14 07:48:26 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01951; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 04:52:28 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id EAA24876; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 04:40:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from wolfe.net by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id EAA24872; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 04:40:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.157.98.151] (sea-ts2-p33.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.151]) by wolfe.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id BAA21677 for ; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 01:40:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: gws@gonzo.wolfe.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 00:48:26 -0700 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: gws@wolfe.net (George Steffen) Subject: Re: wudu Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: >>Clearly, there is more to wudu than what you have implied. How can we >>learn of the meaning unless we let go of our assumptions and sit at the >>feet of one who really knows? Perhaps the conditioning we must overcome >>is our unwillingness to do this. > > >I apologize for my possible inaccurate writings. I had intended to portray >possibilities of why some might feel that all of Islam is no longer relevant >to all men. I surely am not a person that can state anything regarding >possible >modern day irrelevances in Islam with any accuracy. I still hold to the >argument >that some rituals and practices are created for objective purposes that are not >universally valid for all times and places. It seems that this major >thought of >my original post was overlooked and instead smaller statements were >responded to. >I would appreciate any feedback on this idea, especially regarding Islam. > >Sincerely, >Mark Fenkner Assalam Alaikum The problem with your central idea, is that you must understand all the levels of a practice or ritual. This understanding cannot be limited to analytical thinking, but really must be accomplished through a reception of the truth. Muslims hold that the heart (qalb) is the seat of "rationality." We don't mean logic, but the faculty which apprehends the truth through the receptivity of a fully awakened, i.e., faith-filled heart. If you practice with your heart in this state, then the question of objective purposes is likely to pale in the face of what you learn. Some speak of consulting their hearts for their guidance. That is proper when the heart has been opened to faith. The problem is, how do we know when that state has happened? Do we judge ourselves? I am leary of self-judging because my ego and my nafs are downright sneaky and dirty. They'll do anything to keep control including congradulating me on false spiritual states. Do we turn to someone who has acheived that state? My shaikh told me that I would know my shaikh when I "fell in love such that I couldn't leave him." He didn't talk about how to judge real from unreal or false. If you can't detect real from false, take a risk with love; we take them all the time with money, career and each other. Peace and Blessings, Habib N. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 14 16:29:12 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06428; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 12:43:25 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA10347; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 12:32:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA10340; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 12:32:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pimaia2w.prodigy.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01493; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 12:30:13 -0400 Received: from mailout2.prodigy.com ([199.4.137.96]) by pimaia2w.prodigy.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA11882; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 12:29:37 -0400 Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 12:29:12 EDT From: QQFA10A@prodigy.com ( MARY I BRAWLEY) X-Mailer: PRODIGY Services Company Internet mailer [PIM 3.2-085.43] Message-Id: <096.05939557.QQFA10A@prodigy.com> To: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au, tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: women in the West and elsewhere [was Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 13 Apr 1996 Jinavamsa@aol.com wrote: > This was a very beautiful posting. I have a good friend (California blonde) > who is married to a man who is Kuwaiti. She spent some time there with him, > visiting family (a year before the Iraqi military entrance into that > country), and said she felt perfectly safe even walking alone on the streets > after midnight. May that part be on our entire planet one day! It is stunning > the variety of forms that oppression of the woman (not "female part of the > human being") takes from society to society. And Farid ud-Dien responded: >My mother, who is Indonesian, has told me she feels relatively safe >walking around in Indonesian cities at night, whereas she doesn't feel >as safe walking around at night here in Australia. Though this could >partly be because cities like Jakarta never sleep, and there are >always people around. I suspect that there is being safe, because of spritual and/or legal controls on a society, and feeling safe, because of one's state of mind. Both aspects interplay in our consciousness at any point in time, and are mediated by divine guidance and protection in a given situation. Any woman might feel safe in a familiar setting, as could a any man, even if the situation is chaotic. Anyone could feel unsafe in an unfamiliar setting, even if that setting seems perfectly orderly. I was born in New York City. I feel safe when I walk around (although I admit that there is probably a "safety radar" built into me). One night after dhikr, about 2AM, I was walking down the street to my car. While waiting at a streetcorner for a passing car, a drunk man came up next to me and started talking nonsense. I turned to him and said, "You are frightening me." He took my hand, kissed it tenderly, and said, "I am sorry. I didn't mean to do that. " He went on his way with his bottle. I continued on my way. In a city like New York where society is totally out of control, one has these small encounters with human beings everyday. Is it safe? Is it not safe? I don't know. If I were to be molested on the street in New York, would that make it not safe for me from then on? An Arab once told me that my eyes are the eyes of the devil. (He said this in a friendly sort of way while I was eating lunch at his pizza place in Jersey City.) If I was walking around Riyadh covered head to toe, except for my eyes, would I be safe? Who ever guaranteed safety? Life as a rule is pretty unsafe. The physical danger is the least of it. As-salamu 'Alaykum! Maryam From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 14 16:50:50 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14103; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:03:39 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA11403; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 12:53:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA11399; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 12:53:17 -0400 (EDT) From: JHulvey@aol.com Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09221; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 12:50:50 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA11227 for tariqas@world.std.com; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 12:50:50 -0400 Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 12:50:50 -0400 Message-Id: <960414125050_513398899@mail04> To: tariqas@world.std.com Cc: JHulvey@aol.com Subject: Re: Women's prayer in mixed congregation Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear G. Fouad Haddad: Thank you for your thoughtful, thought-provoking and informative answer regarding the attitude of the the Naqshbandi-Haqqani tariqa concerning the separation of women and men at mixed gatherings. Whether or not you were directly answering my question, I appreciate your taking the trouble to contribute this information. Regards, Julie Hulvey From lowensch@sas.upenn.edu Sun Apr 14 18:34:39 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15951; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 14:34:43 -0400 Received: from mail2.sas.upenn.edu by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA17607; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 14:34:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from lowensch@localhost) by mail2.sas.upenn.edu (8.7.4/SAS 8.05) id OAA21986 for tariqas-approval@europe.std.com; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 14:34:39 -0400 (EDT) From: lowensch@sas.upenn.edu (Alan Lowenschuss) Posted-Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 14:34:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199604141834.OAA21986@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> Subject: Sufism and Sahaja Yoga To: tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 14:34:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn3.1] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: Salaam Aleikhum, I am a lurker on this list, a religious studies grad student at the University of PA. I am presently doing ethographic work on the Sahaja Yoga Movement (begun by Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi in 1970) and would be interested in hearing from any Sufis out there who are either involved or interested in the SYM. Thank you and peace, Alan Lowenschuss From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 14 19:12:16 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02709; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 15:23:32 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA19881; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 15:12:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from bio3.acpub.duke.edu by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA19867; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 15:12:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from hthashq1@localhost) by bio3.acpub.duke.edu (8.7.1/Duke-3.0) id PAA14004; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 15:12:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 15:12:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Hugh Talat Halman To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Buddha in Qur'an? In-Reply-To: <31707011.36A1@sinewave.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Friends: Sayyed Hosin Nasr has suggested that the name Dhu'l Kifl echoes the Buddha's teaching site of Kapilvastu, one of the four major pilgrimage sites related to the life of the Buddha.I regret that I have not at hand the citation for Dr. Nasr's claim. I appreciate the opportunity of this topic's discussion. Jawad's posting clarifies the not so pleasant intricacies of the relaities of the initial Muslim-Buddhist encounters. Even if, as Dr. Nasr affirms Islam contextualizes Buddhism as a form of perennial Truth and proto-Islam, historically, Muslims have not always confirmed this vision. As-salaam 'alaikum, Talat From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 14 19:08:41 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03348; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 15:25:44 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA19714; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 15:09:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA19710; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 15:09:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA14078; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 05:08:41 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 05:08:41 +1000 (EST) From: Dien Alfred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Buddha in the Koran In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 14 Apr 1996, Jawad Qureshi wrote: > On Sun, 14 Apr 1996, Zafer Barutcuoglu wrote: > > > (21:85) "Ismail, Idris, Zulkifl; they all were of the patient ones." > > (38:48) "Also remember Ismail, Elyese, and Zulkifl. They all were of the > > elect." > > > > Zulkifl is mentioned only mentioned in these verses in the Holy Kuran as > > far as I'm aware. > > My limited knowledge of Arabic says ZulKifl means "Of Kifl", Kifl being > > an area about today's India. I know no other figure in the history of > > that part of the world who could be a prophet, and it's probable to me > > that Of Kifl carries a meaning that this person is not just anyone of > > Kifl, but rather a figure of authority in that area, and remember Buddha > > was a prince. I remember reading something about there being a reference to some "Buddha of Kifl" or something like that (which was not THE Buddha, but a different Buddha, since Buddha is a kind of title). It might have been in Yusuf Ali's commentary (the original version, since it may be cut out of any of the newer versions if it was there originally). I don't have a copy of Yusuf Ali with commentary with me right now, though, to check. The experts in thinking about this are probably the Muslims of India and Pakistan. > Salam, > > ZulKifl (upon whom be peace) could not have been Buddha. He (ZulKifl) > was idenitifed as Ezekial, according to the scholars of the qur'an, who > learnt from the companions of the Prophet (may Allah be pleased with > them, who learnt from the Prophet (upon whom be thepeace and blessings of > Allah), who recieved the Quran from the Angel Gabriel (upon whom be peace). > > There are, though, some amongst the Muslims that say that Buddha may have > been a prophet though they are few, and are speaking with little > knowledge of history, Islam, and Buddhism. The possibility for this is > open, but it has not been tackled yet by the Muslim scholars. Though it > has to be understood that none of the teachers of the Qur'an have ever > idenitfied Buddha with any figure in the Qur'an. I also don't think THE Buddha has ever been said to be in the Qur'an (Buddha of Kifl was not THE Buddha, if I remember right, but a different person). I have read somewhere that the "Lote tree" in Surah 53, verses 14, 16) may be references to the tree Buddha obtained enlightenment under.... I _might_ have also read this in Yusuf Ali's original commentary (but don't have i?1;0ct here to check right now). I am not a scholar, so I prefer not to comment on the validity of this sort of interpretation. However, the Qur'an only mentions 25-30 Prophets (I've forgotten the exact number), whereas according to a hadith, there have been 124,000 (if I remember right) Prophets sent to earth. This leaves a lot of Prophets not mentioned in the Qur'an, and the Buddha certainly might have been one of those. The Qur'an says, in meaning: "To every people (was sent) an Apostle...." (10:47) To my understanding, this clearly means that not only did the Semitic people have Prophets (like the Prophets of Judaism), but also the people of India, of China, the American Indians, the Australian Aborigines, the Eskimos, etc. So there _must_ have been Prophets (not mentioned in the Qur'an) sent to India, and the Buddha may have been one of these. God knows best. Wassalam, Farid ud-Dien Rice From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 14 19:12:16 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04614; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 15:29:21 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA20033; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 15:15:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA20029; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 15:15:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bio3.acpub.duke.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27704; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 15:12:21 -0400 Received: (from hthashq1@localhost) by bio3.acpub.duke.edu (8.7.1/Duke-3.0) id PAA14004; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 15:12:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 15:12:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Hugh Talat Halman To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Buddha in Qur'an? In-Reply-To: <31707011.36A1@sinewave.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Friends: Sayyed Hosin Nasr has suggested that the name Dhu'l Kifl echoes the Buddha's teaching site of Kapilvastu, one of the four major pilgrimage sites related to the life of the Buddha.I regret that I have not at hand the citation for Dr. Nasr's claim. I appreciate the opportunity of this topic's discussion. Jawad's posting clarifies the not so pleasant intricacies of the relaities of the initial Muslim-Buddhist encounters. Even if, as Dr. Nasr affirms Islam contextualizes Buddhism as a form of perennial Truth and proto-Islam, historically, Muslims have not always confirmed this vision. As-salaam 'alaikum, Talat From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 14 19:26:55 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10384; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 15:46:28 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA20708; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 15:27:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA20699; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 15:26:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA13230; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 05:26:55 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 05:26:55 +1000 (EST) From: Dien Alfred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Buddhism and Islam In-Reply-To: <31707011.36A1@sinewave.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 13 Apr 1996, Gale wrote: > Even some Sufis, such as Fahr aldin Razi went as far as to > deny Hinduism as a part of the prophetic tradition, whereas other Muslim > traditions, eg, al-Biruni, and others, included Hindus in this line as a > result of identifying Ibrahim with the Arabic barahima for brahmans. Was Fakhr ad-Din Razi a Sufi? I always thought he was one of the "philosophers", rather than one of the Sufis (though a few people were both, I just don't recall seeing him mentioned as a Sufi.) As for al-Biruni, he was, I think, the first Muslim to make a thorough study of Hinduism, and he did consider them a "People of the Book" like Jews and Christians, to my understanding. He wasn't a Sufi either, to my knowledge, but was one of the great early Muslim scientists (even though "Ibrahim" is not etymologically related to "Brahmin", to my understanding, so he got this wrong). I think historically, we have to distinguish the actions of the Sufis and the actions of some non-Sufi Muslims.... We just have to remember the case of Hallaj to see this. > At the positive side of the picture, the most frequent Arabic titles for > Buddha are al-budd (in Persian: but) and budasf or budisfiya, the latter > referring to bodhisattva. Shahrastani in the 10th century actually > writes that Buddhism is "very near to the teachings of the Sufis" and > identified it as a "search for Truth" Shahrastani goes on to say that > Buddha is al-Hadir. And a 19th Persian text on Tibet refers to the > statues of Buddha as al-Hadir; the Naqsbandiyya in Central Asia, who > were instrumental for bringing Islam to this Buddhist region, also made > this identification. (if anyone on Tariqas can help me with > understanding this word al-Hadir, I would appreciate it; my > understanding is that it deals with "multiple personality" and thus > Enoch, Hermes, Elias, Jeremiah, etc. are al-Hadir; this transliteration > may also be different because my source for this is from a French text > through the Vaticans Pontificio Instituto di Studi Arabi e > dIslamisticii). I have recently been looking into Zen Buddhism (undoubtedly, many people on this list are more expert than me). Zen Buddhists try to find their "Original Face," their real Self, to my understanding. Bankei (a Japanese Zen master from a few centuries ago) spoke of finding your "unborn self" or something along those lines.... that "self" of yours which existed before you were born. Although the language used is different from Sufism, and some of the techniques are different (mainly meditation and koans, with some chanting in some schools of Zen, like in Korean Zen), I do think they are going for the same essential truth. > Another Sufi, Ala al-Dawla al-Simnani represented the > Buddhists on their behalf to the royal Iranian court. An interesting > piece of historical trivia is that the famous Central Asian Buddhist > cave temples at Toyug, near Turfan, became a seat for Qalandar dervishes > who considered the caves as the abode of the "seven sleepers". And in > the Tarim basin during the 14th century, the local Buddhist monastery > and a Sufi tekke co-existed side-by-side. [...rest deleted...] Thanks for presenting the very interesting results of your research, since I am also interested in this area. :) Wassalam, Farid ud-Dien Rice From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 14 21:36:27 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03066; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 17:56:52 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA00025; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 17:35:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from Surfa.SineWave.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA00021; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 17:35:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gale (m-16.IP1.SineWave.com [206.13.48.48]) by Surfa.SineWave.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA32086 for ; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 14:32:12 -0700 Message-Id: <31716FDB.26C0@sinewave.com> Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 14:36:27 -0700 From: Gale X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Buddhism and Islam References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dien Alfred Rice wrote: > > Was Fakhr ad-Din Razi a Sufi? I always thought he was one of > the "philosophers", rather than one of the Sufis (though a few > people were both) > Dien, you may be correct -- easy to get confused with all the Razi-s!! I was thinking that Fakhralddin was a Sufi because Nasr frequently mentions him alongside al-Ghazzali; You may also be thinking of Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi who I know for certain was a famous philosopher and physician (d. 320/932). I apologize if I mis-titled him; nevertheless Fakhralddin is correct in the context of my post. >(even though "Ibrahim" is not etymologically related to "Brahmin", to my understanding, so he got this wrong) > I understand the identity being made between similar word soundings as "theosophical thinking" which is just as common today in speculative esotericism as it has been for thousands of years. My ex-wife though told me an account of an Indian yogi she met in Tamil Nadu who maintained that there were similiarities between brahmanical laws and those of Judaism. He postulated that Ibrahim was a corruption of the word brahmin. So this is from a Hindu. Again, speculative, but interesting nonetheless. Correct, no etymological relationship. >Although the language used is different from > Sufism, and some of the techniques are different (mainly meditation > and koans, with some chanting in some schools of Zen, like in Korean > Zen), I do think they are going for the same essential truth. > This is an interesting point you raise because in the Kashmiri lineage I attend, after sama (usually very long sung poems, mostly be a line of Kashmiri gnostics such as Shamas Fakir (the Kashmiri Rumi) and Rasul Mir), the pir engages us in a koan-like discourse to penetrate what the poems point to. One of the more learned mureeds in the group pointed out to me how when he first read about Zen in an article in an Indian newspaper, that this was the same kind of "practice" they were receiving from the pir during the dialogues after sama. blessings to all, Nur Jemal From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 14 21:45:12 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04911; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 18:02:27 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA00696; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 17:44:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from Surfa.SineWave.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA00692; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 17:44:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gale (m-16.IP1.SineWave.com [206.13.48.48]) by Surfa.SineWave.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA32114 for ; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 14:40:58 -0700 Message-Id: <317171E8.392E@sinewave.com> Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 14:45:12 -0700 From: Gale X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Buddha in Qur'an? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Hugh Talat Halman wrote: > > Sayyed Hosin Nasr has suggested that the name Dhu'l Kifl echoes the > Buddha's teaching site of Kapilvastu, one of the four major pilgrimage > sites related to the life of the Buddha.I regret that I have not at > hand the citation for Dr. Nasr's claim. Talat, if you happen to find again Nasr's source for this, I would be interested to hear back from you. Again I have to doubt it, remembering that most of Buddha's ministry was in the Terai (the lowlands of southern Nepal and the modern state of Bihar - where the sites are located). Looking at the site of Kapilvastu, again the F and moreso the FL sounds are unknown there. Often Sanskrit V becomes a B in the Bihari and Bengali spoken by Muslims in these regions. I perceive no "echoing" here whatsoever. Blessings, Nur Jemal Gale From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 14 21:57:27 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11050; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 18:17:42 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA01494; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 17:56:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from Surfa.SineWave.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA01490; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 17:56:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gale (m-16.IP1.SineWave.com [206.13.48.48]) by Surfa.SineWave.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA32138 for ; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 14:53:12 -0700 Message-Id: <317174C7.73ED@sinewave.com> Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 14:57:27 -0700 From: Gale X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Lote Tree References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dien Alfred Rice wrote: > > I have read somewhere that the "Lote tree" in Surah 53, verses > 14, 16) may be references to the tree Buddha obtained enlightenment > under.... I _might_ have also read this in Yusuf Ali's original > commentary (but don't have i?1;0ct here to check right now). I am not > a scholar, so I prefer not to comment on the validity of this > sort of interpretation. > Tree symbolism in the Near and Middle East was so widespread, going back to Sumerians and Babylonians (such as the mystical plant/tree Gilgamesh is directed to on his journey) that any validity to this is suspicious. One can just as easily identify it with Jesus' cross, since in the Book of Acts it is called "a tree". Trees, shrouded in mystery, as the Quranic verses state, may also allude to the Enoch visionary texts as well and to the cryptic Syriac Book of the Cave of Treasures from around the 4th century. The possibilities for identifying the Lote Tree with earlier prototypes are numerous. Blessings, Nur Jemal Gale From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 14 23:59:21 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25515; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 20:15:11 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA10822; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 20:00:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA10813; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 20:00:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19981; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 19:59:23 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA06225 for tariqas@world.std.com; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 19:59:21 -0400 Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 19:59:21 -0400 Message-Id: <960414195921_513649975@mail06> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: The Temple of God Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: peace unto all, I have just read some Hazrat Inayat Khan. In one essay he mentions: "The scriptures say that the body is the temple of God ..." The essay is "Physical Control" and is in Sufi Teachings, vol. VIII of The Sufi Message. Would anyone know which scriptures he is referring to, and exactly where this statement might be found there (more than one scripture with this same idea????), along with its context? Thank you very much. in peace, Jinavamsa From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 14 23:55:02 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26514; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 20:16:41 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA10606; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 19:57:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from homer13.u.washington.edu by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA10602; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 19:57:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by homer13.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW96.04/UW-NDC Revision: 2.33 ) id AA139803; Sun, 14 Apr 96 16:55:03 -0700 Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 16:55:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Lilyan Ila To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: women in the West and elsewhere [was Re: Sufism and Tassawuf In-Reply-To: <960413171733_469153398@emout09.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: asalaam-u-aleikum The story of Hazrat Fatima and the blind man has I'm sure many deeper meanings that I'm unaware of. I would be most interested if any other list members know of these and would be willing to share. What it means to me is, contrary to what is put forth in much of the Islamic propaganda the practices for women are for our own spiritual benefit. Whether or not she covered herself had no impact on the blind man, but had a profound effect on her own state. I think this is the case with the issues Fouad referred to - yes, I get far more out of prayers that are done in seclusion than those in public, although there are good reasons for doing those as well. If I make the decision to pray in my room it is for this reason, not because I think it is better for men not to see me. If I cover myself as sister Sonia expressed so well, it is for my own benefit. Men are solely responsible for their own behavior and it is not only oppressive to us but patronizing to them to assume otherwise. Not praying in front of or intermingled with men removes for me the distraction of body consciousness that would occur otherwise, and that is why I do it. There is no sense of inferiority attached to it. It is stated quite clearly and repeated often in the Qur'an that the only differences in worth that occur between individuals are through spiritual attainment, not gender, race, nationality etc. Lily From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 14 03:59:31 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29997; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 00:12:17 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA29092; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 23:57:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from perseus.ultra.net by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA29088; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 23:57:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bailey@localhost) by perseus.ultra.net (8.7.4/dae0.6) id XAA08002; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 23:57:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199604150357.XAA08002@perseus.ultra.net> Date: Sat, 13 Apr 96 23:59:31 EDT From: dan@milliways.org (Dan Bailey) To: tariqas@facteur.std.com X-Mailer: Dan Bailey's PMMail v1.1 Subject: Re: The Temple of God Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 14 Apr 1996 19:59:21 -0400 you wrote: >peace unto all, > >I have just read some Hazrat Inayat Khan. In one essay he mentions: >"The scriptures say that the body is the temple of God ..." >The essay is "Physical Control" and is in Sufi Teachings, vol. VIII of The >Sufi Message. > >Would anyone know which scriptures he is referring to, and exactly where this >statement might be found there (more than one scripture with this same >idea????), along with its context? In I Corinthians of the Christian Bible, Paul is writing about purity among believers. From the King James Version, I Cor 6:15-20 "Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of a harlot? God forbid. What? know ye not that he which is joined to a harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." Hope this is what you were looking for! I'd guess there are more scriptures on this theme, but this is the one that most readily comes to mind. Dan From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 15 06:02:21 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13249; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 02:17:01 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id CAA07299; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 02:02:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id CAA07294; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 02:02:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA22807 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 02:02:21 -0400 Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 02:02:21 -0400 Message-Id: <960415020220_272070434@mail04> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Buddha in the Koran Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 96-04-14 15:10:24 EDT, you write: > >I have read somewhere that the "Lote tree" in Surah 53, verses >14, 16) may be references to the tree Buddha obtained enlightenment >under.... I _might_ have also read this in Yusuf Ali's original >commentary (but don't have i?1;0ct here to check right now). I am not >a scholar, so I prefer not to comment on the validity of this >sort of interpretation. hello all, I have the 2-vol. ed. of the Ali commentary and Quran here. At 53:14 is a reference to the tree, but the tree Lote is described by Ali as thorny, yeilding good fruit and shade under cultivation, and symbolic of heavenly bliss (fn. 5093). Doesn't sound quite like the bodhi tree. There's a following fn. which connects the Lote tree to the Burning Bush (Ali says that this connection comes from the Sufis, spelled precisely, .Suufiis), with ref. to Qur. XX: 10-13 and to Exod. 3: 1-6. hope that helps, in peace, Jinavamsa From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 15 14:30:05 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07847; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:00:46 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA04927; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:30:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA04917; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:30:00 -0400 (EDT) From: SheikhDin@aol.com Received: by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA11013 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:30:05 -0400 Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:30:05 -0400 Message-Id: <960415103005_272223976@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: TurningBuddhaWomenIslamWhatever Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Asalaamu Aleikum wa Rahmatullah -- What will you do? Where will you go? Who will you ask? How will you know? When every single one claims to be the One, Which one is the One? Allah, shine light in the darkness! Forgive us, and allow us to come close to Your Essence. Extend upon us the opportunity to look in the mirror, and bestow upon us the strength to clean it. Sheikh Din Muhammad Abdullah From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 15 14:37:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08032; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:01:06 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA05567; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:37:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from cwis.unomaha.edu by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA05561; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:36:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by cwis.unomaha.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA23890; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:37:01 -0500 Message-Id: <9604151437.AA23890@cwis.unomaha.edu> Subject: Re: women in the West and elsewhere [was Re: Sufism and Tassawuf To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:37:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Bennett Cc: rbennett@cwis.unomaha.edu (Richard Bennett) In-Reply-To: from "Dien Alfred Rice" at Apr 14, 96 10:01:37 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: 786 asalaam to everyone! concerning walking around in jakarta at night, i can say that the streets are relatively safe though there has been reports of criminal activity taking place there recently. i was there last summer and never had any problems but some stabbings and robberies occurred while i was there. still one must consider the mere size of the city and conclude that the lack of criminal mischief is truly amazing. i must admit however, that i felt safer while wandering around lahore at 3 am. wasalaam, abdul ghani > > > On Sat, 13 Apr 1996 Jinavamsa@aol.com wrote: > > > This was a very beautiful posting. I have a good friend (California blonde) > > who is married to a man who is Kuwaiti. She spent some time there with him, > > visiting family (a year before the Iraqi military entrance into that > > country), and said she felt perfectly safe even walking alone on the streets > > after midnight. May that part be on our entire planet one day! It is stunning > > the variety of forms that oppression of the woman (not "female part of the > > human being") takes from society to society. > > Assalamu alaikum, > > My mother, who is Indonesian, has told me she feels relatively safe > walking around in Indonesian cities at night, whereas she doesn't feel > as safe walking around at night here in Australia. Though this could > partly be because cities like Jakarta never sleep, and there are > always people around. > > Farid ud-Dien Rice > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 15 15:33:12 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09536; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:04:17 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA05468; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:36:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA05459; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:35:59 -0400 (EDT) From: GHADDAD@ccmail.sunysb.edu Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22166; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:33:24 -0400 Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by ccmail.sunysb.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #8051) id <01I3KFTSHJFK9I5BKA@ccmail.sunysb.edu> for tariqas@world.std.com; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:33:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:33:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: Veiling before blind man To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: <01I3KFTSIAR69I5BKA@ccmail.sunysb.edu> X-Vms-To: in%"tariqas@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: State University of New York at Stony Brook Stony Brook, NY G. Fouad Haddad 14-Apr-1996 11:49pm EDT FROM: GHADDAD TO: Remote Addressee ( _tariqas@world.std.com ) Subject: Veiling before blind man HADITH ON VEILING BEFORE THE BLIND MAN -------------------------------------- Umm Salamah the Prophet's wife reported that she and Maimunah (another wife of the Prophet) were with the Prophet -- Peace be upon him -- when the son of Umm Maktum came to him. [He is the "blind man" of verse 80:2.] The Prophet said to us: "Screen from him." I asked: "O Messenger of God, is he not a blind man who does not see us?" He replied: "Do you not see him?" Ahmad reported it in his "Musnad," also Tirmidhi in "al-Jami` al-sahih" and Abu Dawud in the "Sunan." Blessings and Peace on the Prophet, his Wives and Family, and his Companions. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 15 14:45:08 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17640; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:18:37 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA06446; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:45:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from cwis.unomaha.edu by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA06433; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:45:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by cwis.unomaha.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA24759; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:45:09 -0500 Message-Id: <9604151445.AA24759@cwis.unomaha.edu> Subject: Re: hijab (fwd) To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:45:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Bennett In-Reply-To: from "Sonia Tourk" at Apr 13, 96 07:36:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: 786 asalaam, i have found this to be the experience of nearly all muslim-american women who cover...they all seem to draw from your theme...honor... it has always been my opinion that women do not want to be treated as men, or as equals of men or above men...they just want to be honored and respected and treated for who they are...women. it's that simple.> nice post! wasalaam, abdul ghani > > BismAllahi ar-Rahmani ar-Rahim > In the name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful > > Assalamu Alaikum, > Peace be upon you all > > There have been a lot of postings about women in general and hijab in > particular lately, and I didn't respond as I was wary of being caught up in > the fray. However, I felt I should write when recently I read a book by > Alice Walker called *In Love and in Trouble*, which is an anthology of short > stories. The first story concerns an African-American woman who is marrying > a Muslim man, and she doesn't understand why the women in her fiance's > religion have to cover their hair and sit apart from the men; it really > bugs her. As I was reading the story, I wanted to physically jump in and > start talking to the woman, it bothered me so much how she had been so misled > and thought of it as oppressive. Of course, I couldn't step into the story:) > Thus, Alhamdulillah I am looking at this as my oppurtunity to give a women's > perspective on hijab. I was a bit surprised at how many of our brothers on > the net got so involved in this; anyway this is from a 2-X Chromosome > netter:) > > Hijab makes women to to be respected for who they are, not what they > look like. Since I started wearing hijab it is impossible for people to > judge me based on anything except what I do; i.e. they can no longer judge me > based on what I look like (Well, perhaps they can but to a *very* limited > extent). Having grown up in American society, this is no small deal. Two of > my best friends in high school had debilitating eating disorders. > Alhamdulillah, Thank God, they're physically recovered now, but what is scary > is that their attitudes regarding themselves and how they look still exists. > Another friend at Smith, a very feminist college, had been bulimic and > anorexic. Although she was no longer able to run at all, or walk fast, or do > anything requiring physical exertion for an extended period of time because > of how much her body had been ravaged, she was glad that she had had the > disorders because she was no longer fat. This is the skewed mentality. > Women in this society, and in every materialistic society, are judged in > terms of how they look much more than men. We all know of the "meat-market" > mentality. We are all always surrounded by these billboards of young women. > This is the "twentieth century?" This is the West, and yes I feel 100% > comfortable rejecting these aspects of it. > > One of the most precious moments of my life was when I observed an > Indian gentleman walking with his grandmother in the city of Chicago. They > were going at an easy pace, talking to each other. They were like an island > unto themselves. I realized that, Insha'Allah if and when I become older, I > wanted to be treated like this grandmother. I wanted to be respected and > loved for who I had become. Our alternative is to spend our old age yearning > for our youth and trying to regain it. > > Thus, for me the proof has been in the pudding. If Western society > truly honored and respected women then perhaps I would be more on the > defensive; indeed perhaps I never would have started to wear hijab. Any > feminist would agree that by and large in this society women are objectified, > valued only for their youth and beauty. I love Islam for honoring women as > human beings. I love Islam for recognizing that both men and women > should be shy before Allah, Whose Presence we are always in. Oftentimes I'll > wear my hijab because it is such an honor, even if I am alone inside of my > house. I love my shaykh for being a living, breathing example of true Islam > and for always honoring women. There have been times at gatherings where he > will simply go and sit and talk to the women, answering questions and sitting > with them. He addresses the spiritual development of the females on > the path, as he does for the men. This is living Islam. > > > Any wisdom in this comes from Allah Ta'ala, with the blessings of my > Shaykh, Shaykh Muhammad Hisham al-Kabbani. Any mistakes come from me. > > Peace and blessings on the Beloved Prophet, his noble family, and > companions. > > Your sister, > Sonia > > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 15 16:17:16 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03077; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:44:25 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA10337; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:22:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA10333; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:22:20 -0400 (EDT) From: GHADDAD@ccmail.sunysb.edu Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16896; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:17:33 -0400 Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by ccmail.sunysb.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #8051) id <01I3KHDF882U9I5BKA@ccmail.sunysb.edu> for tariqas@world.std.com; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:17:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:17:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: A woman warrior of Islam (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: <01I3KHDF890O9I5BKA@ccmail.sunysb.edu> X-Vms-To: IN%"tariqas@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Path: news.cc.sunysb.edu!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!ahm From: djamel@gemini.ldc.lu.se Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam Subject: Re: some questions Date: 14 Apr 1996 16:27:44 GMT Organization: Lund University Sweden Lines: 41 Approved: ahm@smi.med.pitt.edu Message-ID: <4kr920$alu@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> References: <4kj25m$9a5@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Reply-To: djamel@gemini.ldc.lu.se NNTP-Posting-Host: alpha.smi.med.pitt.edu Moderator: Ahmad Hashem Originator: ahm@alpha.smi.med.pitt.edu In article <4kj25m$9a5@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, EbrahimL@history.unp.ac.za (Leyya.Ebrahim) writes: L>7. I have read of a woman called Nusaiba (sp) who physically defended the L>Prophet Muhammad (SAW) in a battle. Please could you provide more L>information in this regard. Her name is Nusseyba bint Ka'b from Maazin. She was known as Ommou 'Imara. She was among the 73 ansar (aous and Khazradj from Madinah) wha gave al- legience to the prophet SAAS in El 'Akaba before Hidjra (migration) to Madina. They gave him the oath to support him and sacrifice for him with their wea- thes, souls and families once he comes to them in Madina. Ibn IsHaaq (the author of Essiira ennabawiyya) relates that she was atten- ding the war with the prophet SAAS as well as her sister, her husband Zaid Ibn 'Assim and her two sons Khoubaib and 'AbduLlah. Her son Khubaib was killed by Moussaylima the lyer, the one who claimed to be prophet of Yemen. He was asking: do you witness that Mohammed is a prophet, Khubaib replies yes, so Mussaylima cuts a bit from his body. When he asks him to witness that he is a prophet, Khubaib replies no and he cuts another bit untill he died on that without replying more than yes or no. So Oummou 'Imara was among those who went to Yamaama to fight Mussaylimah and she got there a hand cut. Ibn Kathir says that Oummou Sa'd Bint Sa'd Ibn Rrabii' used to visit Oummou 'Imara and ask her: Oh aunt!, can't you tell me your story (about the battle of OuHoud)? She said:"I went out early in the day to see what people were doing. I had a container full of water and I walked untill I was near the apostle of Allah. I stood up to face the fighting and to protect him (the prophet) with my saber and by throwing arrows with my bow untill I got se- riously wounded. Oummou Sa'd said that she looked at her shoulder and she saw a deep wound so she asked her what was that made that deep wound. She said it was Ibn Ham:a, when people left the prophet alone he came running and shouting: show me him (the prophet), I won't be safe if he is safe. So I stood in his way with Mous'ab Ibn 'Oumayr and others who stood firmly defending the Prophet SAAS, so he hit me this but I hit him back many strikes but Allah's ennemy was well protected with two shields. This was a short story of one of the great women in Islam. May Allah have mercy on her and the other believers. Djamel. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 15 15:34:38 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14907; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 12:07:01 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA11616; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:33:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from WIZARD.COLORADO.EDU by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA11591; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:32:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from granger.colorado.edu by WIZARD.COLORADO.EDU (PMDF #12158) id <01I3KDPJRZCW8Y62W6@WIZARD.COLORADO.EDU>; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:32 GMT Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:34:38 -0600 From: Mike Granger Subject: RE: comment on turning To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960415153438.2e172946@daryl.colorado.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: granger_m@daryl.colorado.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 06:32 PM 4/12/96 -0400, you wrote: >On Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:47:01 -0600, you wrote: > >> >> Let me understand. You belong to an order that practices something >>you don't agree with, that is, separating the men from the women. Well >>then, why do you participate? Why don't you tell the Shaykh that it is wrong? >>Tell him that Allah, the Exalted Creator, got it wrong, and that the Holy >>Prophet, Peace upon Him, also got it wrong, and that the women folk are >>supposed to mix with the men folk during prayer. > > I'm afraid that I don't recall reading the original post, >but I'm surely familiar with the view expressed here. It's not as >simple as one way being right and the other being wrong. It's >perfectly acceptable to question prior practices. If we >questioned more, perhaps islamic culture would not be as moribund >as it currently is (in my view, of course). > First of all, my apology for coming off so strong. I can very well sympathize with feelings such as that which brother James expressed in his original post. But I am, on this one issue of separation during prayer, very clear as to it's correctness. I don't believe there is any so-called middle-ground to this. Anyone who has ever prayed in a very crowded Mosque understands that mixing sexes during prayer would require physical contact between them, and such physical contact would, unless one were a perfect Saint, cause a certain amount of distraction from the worship. Now, there probably is not any passage in the Holy Quran that speaks of this separation during Salat, but there is plenty of material in it from which one can derive the understanding and necessity of the practice. For me, knowing very well that this is what the Perfect One instilled, it is enough. As to "Islamic culture", there are as many Islamic cultures as there are Islamic countries in the world, and I suppose some could be considered moribund. I think that most of that morbidness is a result of a spiritual stagnancy that has settled in over the last century or two, thanks in good part to the westernization and modernization of social and moral values. I agree with you totally on the necessity of questioning practices, but before one labels such an inherent part of Islam "baloney", they should first spend a little more time trying to learn what the wisdom in it might be. >> What is it about this physical separation between the sexes in Islam >>that causes people to say the Islam and Muslim men make women "lower"? > > I'd suggest that one's intention in the separation makes >all of the difference. Although I have no particular problem with >the separation of men and women in prayer (for practical, evident >reasons), I know that for many men, women are lower, period. The >usual claptrap that islam made the sexes equal in theory does not >even begin to explain the day-to-day differences in equality in >practice. > Please define what exactly you mean by equal, and further, how it would apply to the practice of Islam. There's plenty of claptrap in any topic of discussion, as Sayiddina 'Ali once said, "until you have perfected yourself, everything you utter is from your ego." So, you understand the reasons for the separation in prayer; good. That's what I was attempting to address. Yes, a good portion of the male-kind look down upon women-kind, and this is very wrong indeed, and has caused too much suffering for those of the fairer sex over the ages. However, if one really ponders the whole of human history, one would be totally blind if they didn't see that the males of the species have performed their role as they were meant to, just as the women have performed their own roles as they were meant to. Men, who are endowed by their Creator with a different type of mental and physical nature than women, have acted out their roles as leaders of men, shapers and craftsmen of nature and society, and yes, destroyers of man, whether directed by Allah or their egos. Women, on the other hand, have performed their primary roles as mothers and nurturers of mankind, and movers of hearts and souls, and teachers of many things. This has been true from the dawn of mankind until the present. Now, in the 20th century, those who are enlightened would have us try to ingore these basic, intrinisic natures. Everyone must be "equal", likes cows in a field. >>Anyone who really follows Islam and Sunnah understands the wisdoms in this >>separation, in prayers and elsewhere. If you think that this separation is >>a mistake, then what is it, besides your own ego, that makes you think >>mixing is good? Is it simply that you're used to the ways of the west, and >>feel that your spiritual practices must conform to some kind of 20th century >>western social fabric? > > What's your rush to embrace the ways of the East or to >reject the 20th century? My point is that honest differences in >interpretation and yes, tolerance, exist and your view may not be >best for everyone. Differences in interpretation are certainly an integral part in the stuudy and practice of any complicated system, as every man has their own unique mind, but I don't think that Islam or it's practice is tied down to East, West, or any time. It is, as the Prophet declared, for all mankind, for all time. There is interpretation, and then there is refusal to accept. > >> What else do you think is a mistake, perhaps >>arranged marriages as opposed to dating? A woman covering herself modestly >>as opposed to wearing whatever she likes, erotically flouting her stuff in >>public? It's also a Sunnah that a woman, married or unmarried, should never >>be alone with a man in whomever's home unless they are married, and if they >>aren't married, then an adult relative of both the man and woman must >>accompany them in order to ensure that no hanky-panky is happening. Is this >>also an archaic, neanderthal practice that has no place in the enlightened >>20th century? Do Allah and his Prophet have this one wrong also? > > What if questions are raised about these practices? Who >says that this approach is the only way. I don't know about you, >but I've been alone with unmarried women and there wasn't any >"hanky-panky," or even the thought of it. As a practical >matter, how do you manage to avoid women day-to-day? > I surely didn't want to imply that most single people who get together in private will act upon any sexual needs, or even have such thoughts. However, I would maintain that the Sunnah prohibitting the two sexes being together alone if they're of sexual maturity, as a general rule, is a very good one indeed, because, in general, men and women (and maybe men are more guilty here) will have an urge, in many such situations, to act upon their urges to some degree. Such satisfaction will usually lead to bad results. Now, I understand that this "rule" is broken thousands and millions of times every day, by Muslims alone. That doesn't nullify one iota the need for it. Oh yes, it is very impractical to avoid women nearly anywhere, especially work and school, and in socail gatherings as well. But afterall, we don't live in an "Islamic" society, and this separation rule doesn't necessarily apply to a great many settings like work and school. The best we can do is maintain our own "personal" culture which, to the degree possible, allows us to follow whatever rules of religious guidance we feel need to be kept. At the same time, good manners and kindness must always be part of anyone's interaction and behavior, with and around anyone. >> I guess I'm talking about the extremes here, and of course in the >>west we have the difficult task of making our religion or spiritual >>practices socially tolerable for ourselves and others, and in western Tariqa >>groups, what I've usually seen is a middle ground where there is separation >>during prayer and dhikr, or perhaps separation during prayer, but mixing >>during dhikr and other types of gatherings. Who knows, peraps there are >>western sufi groups in which there is total homogenity between men and >>woman. Question is, what is it that you are striving for in your participation? >>If it's "equality" of the sexes, well then, I can see where that would >>frustrate you. > > It looks like you've settled down some :^). In fact, you >make my point as well. > >> Personally, I think the baloney is the way in which men and >>women in western society mix so freely, resulting in so many of them giving >>free reign to their nafs and organs, and contributing in a big way to the >>steady decline in whatever shread of social morality is left, leaving many >>lives, loves, and families in pieces. Truth is, it's men's egos (and >>women's) that cause them to be blind to the wisdom in things that are in >>reality beneficial. > > I wish it were this simple -- just separate men and >women, and many problems would be solved. > It is not simple at all, and there are many problems that have nothing to do with separation of sexes, nor did I imply to the contrary. I hope , however, that I've illuminated my own feelings on the topic. Peace to you. Abdassalam >-- > >Tony > >Anthony Teelucksingh > >"Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you > find a trout in the milk." -- Henry David Thoreau > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 15 15:46:02 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17456; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 12:12:52 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA12835; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:44:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from WIZARD.COLORADO.EDU by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA12829; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:44:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from granger.colorado.edu by WIZARD.COLORADO.EDU (PMDF #12158) id <01I3KE4N9QK08Y62X6@WIZARD.COLORADO.EDU>; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:43 GMT Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:46:02 -0600 From: Mike Granger Subject: Re: TurningBuddhaWomenIslamWhatever To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960415154602.34e71d56@daryl.colorado.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: granger_m@daryl.colorado.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:30 AM 4/15/96 -0400, you wrote: >Asalaamu Aleikum wa Rahmatullah -- > >What will you do? >Where will you go? >Who will you ask? >How will you know? > >When every single one >claims to be the One, >Which one is the One? > >Allah, shine light in the darkness! Forgive us, and allow us to come close to >Your Essence. Extend upon us the opportunity to look in the mirror, and >bestow upon us the strength to clean it. > >Sheikh Din Muhammad Abdullah > Ameen, ameen, ameen. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 15 17:06:51 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04688; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 13:35:56 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id NAA21876; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 13:08:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id NAA21864; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 13:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id KAA10332 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:06:53 -0700 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id KAA01799 for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:06:52 -0700 Message-Id: <199604151706.KAA01799@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Re: Masters of Wisdom To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:06:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: from "Dien Alfred Rice" at Apr 14, 96 10:18:38 am From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: 49960415 tax day in US assalam alaykum, my kin. |I think I have also read about this distinction between "northern" |and "southern" Sufis in one of the books by Murat Yagan, who is |originally from Abkhazia, one of the areas in the Caucasus mountains |(near Chechnia). I don't remember the title of the book, though. |I also didn't read much of it - I was just browsing through it |in the bookstore. compare Zen's Nothern 'sudden enlightenment' school with that of the 'gradual enlightenment' or Mahayana with Theravada. mystics divide themselves over many issues important to them. |I have recently been looking into Zen Buddhism, and this "northern" |Sufism sounds like it may be closer to Zen Buddhism than the "southern" |Sufism (if such a distinction is appropriate). I doubt this. I gather there are universal and Islamic currents which occasionally vie for supremacy or compete for attention. peace be with you, my kin. Haramullah tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 15 17:01:31 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11322; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 13:44:15 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id NAA20776; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 13:00:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from WIZARD.COLORADO.EDU by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA20765; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 12:59:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from granger.colorado.edu by WIZARD.COLORADO.EDU (PMDF #12158) id <01I3KGR8HM1C8Y634N@WIZARD.COLORADO.EDU>; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:59 GMT Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:01:31 -0600 From: Mike Granger Subject: Re: hijab (fwd) To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960415170131.375f10de@daryl.colorado.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: granger_m@daryl.colorado.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Thank you, dear Sister, for this illuminating and confirmational view on the role and dignity of women. Us menfolk need to be continually re-educated on the problems woman face in this mercilless society, and what men can do to help them. I think that Islam, lived in it's true spirit, can do more than anything else to help men understand and live in true partnership with women. We truly need each other, and that requires mutual understanding and support. At 07:36 PM 4/13/96 -0500, you wrote: > >BismAllahi ar-Rahmani ar-Rahim >In the name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful > >Assalamu Alaikum, >Peace be upon you all > > There have been a lot of postings about women in general and hijab in >particular lately, and I didn't respond as I was wary of being caught up in >the fray. However, I felt I should write when recently I read a book by >Alice Walker called *In Love and in Trouble*, which is an anthology of short >stories. The first story concerns an African-American woman who is marrying >a Muslim man, and she doesn't understand why the women in her fiance's >religion have to cover their hair and sit apart from the men; it really >bugs her. As I was reading the story, I wanted to physically jump in and >start talking to the woman, it bothered me so much how she had been so misled >and thought of it as oppressive. Of course, I couldn't step into the story:) >Thus, Alhamdulillah I am looking at this as my oppurtunity to give a women's >perspective on hijab. I was a bit surprised at how many of our brothers on >the net got so involved in this; anyway this is from a 2-X Chromosome >netter:) > > Hijab makes women to to be respected for who they are, not what they >look like. Since I started wearing hijab it is impossible for people to >judge me based on anything except what I do; i.e. they can no longer judge me >based on what I look like (Well, perhaps they can but to a *very* limited >extent). Having grown up in American society, this is no small deal. Two of >my best friends in high school had debilitating eating disorders. >Alhamdulillah, Thank God, they're physically recovered now, but what is scary >is that their attitudes regarding themselves and how they look still exists. >Another friend at Smith, a very feminist college, had been bulimic and >anorexic. Although she was no longer able to run at all, or walk fast, or do >anything requiring physical exertion for an extended period of time because >of how much her body had been ravaged, she was glad that she had had the >disorders because she was no longer fat. This is the skewed mentality. >Women in this society, and in every materialistic society, are judged in >terms of how they look much more than men. We all know of the "meat-market" >mentality. We are all always surrounded by these billboards of young women. >This is the "twentieth century?" This is the West, and yes I feel 100% >comfortable rejecting these aspects of it. > > One of the most precious moments of my life was when I observed an >Indian gentleman walking with his grandmother in the city of Chicago. They >were going at an easy pace, talking to each other. They were like an island >unto themselves. I realized that, Insha'Allah if and when I become older, I >wanted to be treated like this grandmother. I wanted to be respected and >loved for who I had become. Our alternative is to spend our old age yearning >for our youth and trying to regain it. > > Thus, for me the proof has been in the pudding. If Western society >truly honored and respected women then perhaps I would be more on the >defensive; indeed perhaps I never would have started to wear hijab. Any >feminist would agree that by and large in this society women are objectified, >valued only for their youth and beauty. I love Islam for honoring women as >human beings. I love Islam for recognizing that both men and women >should be shy before Allah, Whose Presence we are always in. Oftentimes I'll >wear my hijab because it is such an honor, even if I am alone inside of my >house. I love my shaykh for being a living, breathing example of true Islam >and for always honoring women. There have been times at gatherings where he >will simply go and sit and talk to the women, answering questions and sitting >with them. He addresses the spiritual development of the females on >the path, as he does for the men. This is living Islam. > > >Any wisdom in this comes from Allah Ta'ala, with the blessings of my >Shaykh, Shaykh Muhammad Hisham al-Kabbani. Any mistakes come from me. > >Peace and blessings on the Beloved Prophet, his noble family, and >companions. > >Your sister, >Sonia > > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 15 18:31:46 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19292; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 14:01:28 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id NAA24572; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 13:29:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id NAA24568; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 13:29:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id NAA22564 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 13:29:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.123]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 12:45:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960415183146.008fe3b4@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 14:31:46 -0400 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com, tariqas@facteur.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: Ninth Sufi thought Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Brother, Although we haven't written each other for some time, you are on my mind. We are again doing some TV at the end of May (30 & 31) with Pir-o-Murshid Hidayat. Any interest? Thanks for the kind words and warmest regards. At 12:38 PM 4/12/96 -0700, Mateen Siddiqui wrote: > >These are very beautiful... > >thank you, > >--mateen siddiqui > Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 15 20:40:43 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23254; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 17:21:06 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA16054; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 16:40:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA16033; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 16:40:39 -0400 (EDT) From: JHulvey@aol.com Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA15916 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 16:40:43 -0400 Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 16:40:43 -0400 Message-Id: <960415164040_375949591@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: JHulvey@aol.com Subject: Re: comment on turning Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Let me begin by saying I am not attempting to tell anyone what should and should not be. I don't belong to an order - why should I argue with any order's practices? I admit I was a little surprised to find out about this separation of men and women in prayer in (presumably) all Sufi tariqas in the West. Perhaps I had not realized that all of them were within Islam...is that correct? I am in a process of questioning those of my assumptions which I am able to see (precious few!). To this end, I've been doing a lot of writing and thus paying closer attention to language and to patterns of thinking. This letter is not about agreeing or disagreeing with anyone's practices, only with discussing the reasons for these practices as stated here. Granted, I should be pulling the plank out of my eye before trying to point out the splinter in yours. In a message dated 96-04-15 11:34:31 EDT, you write: >However, if one really ponders the whole of human history, one would be >totally blind if they didn't see that the males of the species have >performed their role as they were meant to, just as the women have >performed their own roles as they were meant to. Instead of "as they were meant to", why not say "as I believe or assume they were meant to"? And have you really pondered the whole of human history, or just the parts that support your theory? > Men, who are endowed by their Creator with a different type of mental Again, are you sure about this? >and physical nature than women, have acted out their roles as leaders of >men, shapers and craftsmen of nature and society, and yes, destroyers >of man, whether directed by Allah or their egos. >Women, on the other hand, have performed their primary roles as >mothers and nurturers of mankind, and movers of hearts and souls, and >teachers of many things. I'm wondering how, if I accept your theory, am I to regard those women to be encountered in Sufi stories who play roles which you reserve for men? How about the story of the courageous defender of the Prophet (peace be upon him) as contributed here by G. F. Haddad? Also, is moving hearts and souls different from being a leader? Cannot a teacher said to be a shaper and crafter of nature and society? And is this role which you call intrinsic ordained by God or is it societal? > This has been true from the dawn of mankind until the present. > Now, in the 20th century, those who are enlightened would have us try to >ingore these basic, intrinisic natures. Although I hesitate to say just what has been around since the dawn of mankind, the urge for domination and power is arguably a stronger force than that of gender-based roles. By the way, role and nature are not synonymous...but within traditions, they start looking that way. The assumption that only contemporary thinking is "correct" would be as mistaken as assuming that only traditional thinking is valid, i.e., that its validity lies within its contemporary or traditional status (which is circular thinking). By your ironic use of the word "enlightened" I wonder if you believe that no truly enlightened person would disagree with you on this. Are you familiar with the story The Wayward Princess? Among other meanings, I believe that on one level it is a warning against accepting anyone's definition of what is possible for us. The extremely competent protagonist carved a life for herself out of a wilderness and, side by side with her spouse, was a leader of men and women. That the story is about a princess rather than a prince does not seem accidental. If anyone would like the story I will be happy to post it. Sincerely, Julie Hulvey From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 15 21:31:30 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00881; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 17:34:03 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA22458; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 17:33:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29514; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 17:31:36 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA22184; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 17:31:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 17:31:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199604152131.RAA22184@europe.std.com> X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [Jim Norton ] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Mon Apr 15 17:31:27 1996 Return-Path: Received: from mhub2.tc.umn.edu by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA22179; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 17:31:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by mhub2.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 15 Apr 96 16:31:23 -0500 Received: from dialup-2-91.gw.umn.edu by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 15 Apr 96 16:31:20 -0500 Message-ID: <3172BFE1.4AFE@ast1.spa.umn.edu> Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 16:30:09 -0500 From: Jim Norton Organization: Shamsuddin Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@europe.std.com Subject: Re: comment on turning References: <960415164040_375949591@emout04.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit JHulvey@aol.com wrote: > > > If anyone would like the story I will be happy to post it. > > Sincerely, > > Julie Hulvey > > I would like to read the story. Grace & Peace, Shamsuddin Jim Norton norton@ast1.spa.umn.edu From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 15 20:56:26 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08844; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 17:48:30 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA17718; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 16:55:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from merak.idola.net.id by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA17692; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 16:55:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp19.IdOLA.net.id by merak.idola.net.id; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/22Mar96-0518PM) id AA08997; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 03:56:26 +0700 Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 03:56:26 +0700 Message-Id: <9604152056.AA08997@merak.idola.net.id> X-Sender: barzakh@elang.idola.net.id (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: BARZAKH FOUNDATION Subject: Barzakh Foundation and Sufi Healing Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu'alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakattu, Dear Sir/Madam, We would like to introduce to our brothers and sisters all over the world about our Sufi organization, Barzakh Foundation, which resides in Jakarta, Indonesia. In our attempt to seek His pleasure and to give service to humanity, we have opened a worldwide service to cure HIV/AIDS patients using Sufi Healing method. The service is FREE, since we are a non-profit organization. The Sufi Healing is performed by our Sufi Master, Muhammad Zuhri. His profile can be found at this Web-site address : http://www.idola.net.id/inyp/life/barzakh/muhzuh-e.htm. We wish to build further relationship with other Sufi and Islamic organizations all over the world. We would also be thankful for any help toward our service and to give connection to HIV/AIDS patients who want to join. We also send within this letter complete information about our service in HIV/AIDS treatment using Sufi Healing Method. Thank you for your attention. May Allah give peace and love to all of you. Wassalamu'alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakattu, CANDRA WISNUARKA President of Barzakh Foundation BARZAKH FOUNDATION Wijaya Grand Centre C-3, 3rd Floor Jalan Wijaya 2, Kebayoran Baru Jakarta INDONESIA 12160 Phone - Fax : (62-21)-720-5622 E-mail : barzakh@idola.net.id Web-site : http://www.idola.net.id/inyp/life/barzakh/barzakhe.htm ----------------------------------------------------------- The Meaning of BARZAKH ----------------------------------------------------------- Barzakh is an Arabic word which means an isthmus or a partition. The word is mentioned in The Holy Quran (Al Furqan verse 53), which refers to an isthmus, a narrow piece of land between two oceans. According to a Sufi the two oceans symbolize the ocean of God's Absoluteness and the ocean of Nature's Relativity, while the isthmus symbolizes a Perfect Moslem. Following this concept, a Perfect Moslem is the one who has the awareness of God's Absoluteness and Nature's Relativity in his heart, so that along with his physical activity and creativity, his spiritual form never stops prostating to God to seek His Love only. The meeting of the two oceans also represented in the story of Moses' encounter with Khidr in The Holy Quran (Al Kahfi verses 60-82). Moses symbolizes the Nature's Relativity, while Khidr symbolizes God's Absoluteness. Given the name Barzakh, the Foundation hopes that it will always submit itself to God in its strugle to serve the community. ------------------------------------------------------------ HIV/AIDS TREATMENT WITH SUFI HEALING METHOD ------------------------------------------------------------ BACKGROUND The Foundation regards HIV/AIDS disease as a serious threat to humanity. A great empathy and attention are needed to prevent further spreading and to cure the already infected patients using every way which is acceptable by human laws and morality or religion. The Foundation has committed itself to give treatment to HIV/AIDS patients using Sufi Healing method, which has been practiced for the last 20 years by its counselor, Muhammad Zuhri (a Sufi Master from Indonesia), to cure many people with cancer, mental illness, leukemia, impotency, paralysis, etc. The Foundation accepts help from every individual and organization who are dealing with HIV/AIDS by spreading information about our service. ABOUT SUFI HEALING The Sufis are high rank spiritual teachers within Islam, whose one of their responsibility is to maintain and transmit the hidden, deeper knowledge contained in the Holy Qur'an. For the Sufis, the supreme object of life is to serve and obey God, to emulate His divine attributes, and thereby to earn His pleasure. Among the service to humanity, that which the Sufis consider superior to all others is the healing of the sick. Their method is called the Sufi Healing. There are four kind of healing methods known to us: 1. modern 2. traditional (acupuncture, herb remedies, etc.) 3. spiritism (yoga, magnetism, hypnotism, breath exercise, etc.) 4. Divine spiritual power Sufi healing method is an Islamic healing method using Divine spiritual power practiced exclusively by the Sufis for centuries. The basic principle in Sufi Healing is that the True Healer is God Himself, the Sufis only act as mediators. The physical healing methods of the Sufis derive first from the Holy Qur'an and second from the traditions and actions of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). The Sufis use four things in their treatment of diseases: prayers, medicine, by practicing something, or using specific things. Prayers in Islam is known as salat, a specific practice combining body movements and reciting of Qur'anic verses and supplications, which must be performed five times a day. While the true purpose of salat and fasting are to reach God's proximity, it can also give spiritual nourishment and harmonize the physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual life, if done properly. Traditional medicine or therapy (water therapy, aromatherapy, etc.) sometimes also used by the Sufis depending on the condition of the patient. Zikr, simply translated as Divine remembrance, is also practiced as a method to cure mental or physical illness. It is performed by repeating holy verses or God's attributes either individually or in a group, usually under supervision of a Sufi teacher. The Sufis also combine the using of God's attributes and holy verses with prayer in a specific and complex method. The formulations may be written on a paper, bone, or leather, which is called wifq. Those things are to be put it in a glass of water to be taken by the patient or buried in the ground, or carried around by the patient. The formulations can also be spoken aloud or in heart, or using many other ways. This can be applied not only to cure mental or physical illness, but also to solve family, financial, or social problem. This last method uses power from God's angels for constructive purposes only, and it is not the same with voodoo, black magic, or witchcraft which use the power from jinn or evil spirits which can be used for destructive purposes. Those who are interested to know more about Sufi Healing, or Sufism, are suggested to read this book: Shaykh Hakim Moinuddin Chishti. THE BOOK OF SUFI HEALING. New York: Inner Traditions International, Ltd., 1985. or go to our Web-site: Sufi Healing for HIV/AIDS Treatment at: http://www.idola.net.id/inyp/life/barzakh/aidsbrze.htm THE HIV/AIDS TREATMENT To cure the HIV/AIDS patients, the Foundation's Sufi Master practiced two ways : the first is through body contact (for those who could come to us) and the second is by simple self meditation (for far away patients) at a specific hour and day, at the same time the Sufi Master will also perform prayers. In the prayer, the Sufi Master will mention the patient's name and his/her mother's name. As a complimentary, patients will also be given wifq (piece of paper containing holy verses) which must be carried along with the patient or to be put inside a glass of drinking water. Complete instructions will be sent along with the wifq. The treatment does not use any traditional herb or medicine or any chemical substances, so it will not yield side effects. We accept patients from every country regardless of their sex, race or religion. GENERAL AGREEMENT Persons with HIV or AIDS who want to join our service should accept terms of agreement listed below: 1. The patient must already have been tested HIV+. 2. The Foundation give treatment only to cure the HIV/AIDS disease. 3. The patient should follow every procedure with discipline. 4. The patient should give his/her full name, his/her mother's name, his/her mail address to the Foundation using E-mail or fax, and the Foundation will guard its secrecy. 5. The patient should wait for its turn to have the treatment. We will respond your request by sending a treatment schedule. 6. The Foundation will send the wifq and the instruction kit via airmail for patients who are not able to come to Jakarta. For those who want to come directly to us should arrange an appointment at least one month in advance (please use the E-mail or fax). 7. The Foundation will give all its best to serve every patient. 8. During the treatment, the patient should send medical analysis report to the Foundation regularly. 9. While undergoing the treatment, the patient must NOT practice other spiritual-based treatment or therapy (yoga ,etc.) at the same time. While medicine or vitamins as prescribed by the doctor are suggested to be taken. 10.The patient should avoid every activity with HIV risk (e.g. sex intercourse with HIV potential persons) during and after the treatment. 11.In order to speed up the healing process, all patients are advised to maximize all religious activities (pray to God, leave all bad behaviors, etc.) according to his or her own belief. 12.The service is FREE. The Foundation will not charge anything to the patients. 13.The effective time of the treatment is 3 (three) months, the Foundation will stop the treatment if the patient is not cured after 6(six) months. We must remember that this treatment is using prayers and the result is up to God. 14.The Foundation does not give any guarantee of this service, and thus are free from every charge from the patients, their families and/or communities. For further information, please contact us at : BARZAKH FOUNDATION Wijaya Grand Centre C-3, 3rd Floor Jalan Wijaya 2, Kebayoran Baru Jakarta INDONESIA 12160 Phone - Fax : (62-21)-720-5622 E-mail : barzakh@idola.net.id Web-site : http://www.idola.net.id/inyp/life/barzakh/barzakhe.htm BARZAKH FOUNDATION Wijaya Grand Centre C-3 Jl. Wijaya 2 Kebayoran Baru Jakarta INDONESIA 12160 Telp-Fax (62-21)-720-5622 E-mail : barzakh@idola.net.id http://www.idola.net.id/inyp/life/barzakh/barzakhe.htm From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 15 22:32:36 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22113; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 19:19:11 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA29027; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 18:32:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from sowebo.charm.net by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA29011; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 18:32:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from charm.net by sowebo.charm.net; Mon, 15 Apr 96 18:32 EDT From: tony@charm.net (Anthony Teelucksingh) To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: comment on turning Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 18:32:36 -0400 Content-Type: text Organization: Rodgers Forge in Towson, Maryland Message-Id: <3172c2d6.36106304@smtp.charm.net> References: <2.2.16.19960415153438.2e172946@daryl.colorado.edu> In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19960415153438.2e172946@daryl.colorado.edu> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99d/32.182 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:34:38 -0600, you wrote: > First of all, my apology for coming off so strong. I can very well >sympathize with feelings such as that which brother James expressed in his >original post. But I am, on this one issue of separation during prayer, >very clear as to it's correctness. I don't believe there is any so-called >middle-ground to this. Anyone who has ever prayed in a very crowded Mosque >understands that >mixing sexes during prayer would require physical contact between them, and >such physical contact would, unless one were a perfect Saint, cause a >certain amount of distraction from the worship. Now, there probably is not >any passage in the Holy Quran that speaks of this separation during Salat, >but there is plenty of material in it from which one can derive the >understanding and necessity of the practice. For me, knowing very well that >this is what the Perfect One instilled, it is enough. Well, that's the question, isn't it? Is this what God established, or are we mulling over the prejudices of men? Why, sure, I've prayed in a crowded masjid where I couldn't even completely place my forehead to the ground because of the crowding. As I mentioned, there are practical reasons for the separation, but how does one come to the conclusion that it is mandated by God, and consequently a sin if the segregation by sex is not done. For example, I see nothing wrong with mixed praying in an uncrowded masjid (and I hope all of them are always crowded!), or mixed praying in dhikir. To my mind, women or their sexuality, privately expressed, are not a source of sin (and as a recovered Catholic, I know well the opposite view). >As to "Islamic culture", there are as many Islamic cultures as there are Islamic countries >in the world, and I suppose some could be considered moribund. I think that >most of that morbidness is a result of a spiritual stagnancy that has >settled in over the last century or two, thanks in good part to the >westernization and modernization of social and moral values. I agree with >you totally on the necessity of questioning practices, but before one labels >such an inherent part of Islam "baloney", they should first spend a little >more time trying to learn what the wisdom in it might be. Baloney is not the word I used. And who would argue that westernization and modernization is not without its problems? I did not mean to dismiss islamic cultures entirely, but only in the context of the status of women. It is true, of course, that it depends on your point of view and that's what we are debating. For example, I've read posts in soc.religion.islam from sisters who believe that their rights have been taken away because men no longer have to support them. That's one way to look at it, I suppose. On the other hand, women can choose for themselves (and most don't have the choice these days) whether they want to work and how. But let's look further at the so-called islamic values concerning the status of women. We all know of the specific rights given to women by the Holy Qur'an. At the time that the Book was revealed, these rights were revolutionary given the Arab mores and culture of the time (the companions didn't all accept these changes overnight, and some resisted -- although unquestionably a marvelous man, 'Umar apparently didn't suffer women gladly). Somewhere along the line, the rights given (and I think the better word is *reinstated* since the Qur'an brought no new religion, but simply reasserted the religion of Abraham) to women by the Qur'an became a ceiling on their social and legal life rather than the floor that I think it was intended to be. > Please define what exactly you mean by equal, and further, how it >would apply to the practice of Islam. There's plenty of claptrap in any >topic of discussion, as Sayiddina 'Ali once said, "until you have perfected >yourself, everything you utter is from your ego." As I wrote it, I knew that someone would ask me what I mean by equality :^). Simply put, what I mean is that a woman may do anything a man can do within the biological and intellectual limits of the particular woman and man in question. Yes, on average, men are physically stronger than women, but I've met a few women where that was definitely not true. My point is that you cannot generalize about the abilities of women and men and then conclude that these generalities are God-given differences. > So, you understand the reasons for the separation in prayer; good. >That's what I was attempting to address. Yes, a good portion of the >male-kind look down upon women-kind, and this is very wrong indeed, and has >caused too much suffering for those of the fairer sex over the ages. >However, if one really ponders the whole of human history, one would be >totally blind if they didn't see that the males of the species have >performed their role as they were meant to, just as the women have performed >their own roles as they were meant to. Men, who are endowed by their >Creator with a different type of mental and physical nature than women, have >acted out their roles as leaders of men, shapers and craftsmen of nature and >society, and yes, destroyers of man, whether directed by Allah or their >egos. Women, on the other hand, have performed their primary roles as >mothers and nurturers of mankind, and movers of hearts and souls, and >teachers of many things. This has been true from the dawn of mankind until >the present. Now, in the 20th century, those who are enlightened would have >us try to ingore these basic, intrinisic natures. Everyone must be "equal", >likes cows in a field. This illustrates what I call a generality gone awry. This is a stereotypical assessment of the sexes which serves (surprise!) the interests of men. These days, a similar argument is made in the US with respect to race. It is now fashionable in some circles to refer to the inferiority of some races, and in fact, big dollars are made by publishing "scientific" studies of this view, ie. the whole "Bell Curve" controversy. Why is it so easy to pigeonhole women with the same stereotype, but happily, no one in his or her right mind would advocate the same view with respect to race? Your view of the "natural state" of women and men is not new, and I submit, not valid -- either for yesterday or for today. I'm a lawyer by trade (and I've noticed no intellectual or emotional difference between the female and the male judge, or lawyer -- "fairer" sex indeed!) and your argument reminds me of the Congressional debate concerning the watershed 1964 Civil Rights Act (no, I'm not that old, but this stuff is written down). The southern representatives were at their wits end to find a way to continue to deny fundamental human rights to some 8% of the American population. Recognizing that the time had come (overdue, in fact) for simple justice, the opponents of the legislation decided to add sex as an additional basis of prohibited discrimination (ie. race, color, creed, and religion). Their view was that sex was so obviously a legitimate basis for discrimination, so God-given, so natural, that no one could possibly vote for legislation that so usurped the natural order of things and the entire legislation would therefore go down to defeat. The legislation passed -- religion, culture, and values notwithstanding. My point, restated, is that men and women are equal in all respects -- people make the choice for themselves the roles they want. If a woman believes that it is her right to be supported, simply because she is a woman, and she finds a man who agrees with her -- more power to them. > Differences in interpretation are certainly an integral part in the >stuudy and practice of any complicated system, as every man has their own >unique mind, but I don't think that Islam or it's practice is tied down to >East, West, or any time. It is, as the Prophet declared, for all mankind, >for all time. There is interpretation, and then there is refusal to accept. Surely you're not saying that disagreement with you or the school of law, or imam, you follow is not a matter of interpretation but a refusal to accept the truth? I've gotten a bit far afield from the original point of mixing in a masjid. However, I believe that my comments are on point with the views expressed in posts on the topic. Assalam Alaikum. -- Tony Anthony Teelucksingh "Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk." -- Henry David Thoreau From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Apr 15 22:52:47 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22815; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 19:21:12 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA01284; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 18:54:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id SAA01277; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 18:54:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sowebo.charm.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10141; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 18:53:04 -0400 Received: from charm.net by sowebo.charm.net; Mon, 15 Apr 96 18:52 EDT From: tony@charm.net (Anthony Teelucksingh) To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: women can't teach kindergarten? Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 18:52:47 -0400 Content-Type: text Organization: Rodgers Forge in Towson, Maryland Message-Id: <3172cf77.39340477@smtp.charm.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99d/32.182 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Just to follow up on my comments on mixing between the sexes during dhikir and my comment on "islamic culture" which I said was moribund. Someone who is very unsympathetic to religion in general, and islam, in particular, (in the interests of full disclosure) posted a message to soc.religion.islam which reports that Sheikh Bin Baz of Saudi Arabia has ruled that women cannot teach kindergarten children. This is all third hand, but apparently the sheikh gave as his reasons: 1) women don't have empathy with children, and 2) it would be the start of the "abomination of desegregated education." Sheik Bin Baz also ruled recently (and this I read in the New York Times -- sure, go ahead and slam my sources ;^) that the earth was flat and that it does not rotate. How else could one determine east from west, and where would the bottom be for trees, mountains, rivers, and oceans? I also caught a CNN story (yes, I know I need to work on my sources ;^) on the Taliban of Afghanistan who have prohibited women from teaching male pupils. Since there are few male teachers in areas controlled by the Taliban , the boys, according to one, don't learn anything because they have no teacher. Well on the way to creating a stone age society, but this time with Kalashnikov in one hand and a Qur'an in the other. I left Catholicism because I was no good at accepting all received dogma at face value -- to be accepted as a matter of faith. I am attracted to sufism for the same reason. Assalam Alaikum. -- Tony Anthony Teelucksingh "Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk." -- Henry David Thoreau From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 16 00:12:14 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00746; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 20:38:58 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA08683; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 20:12:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA08665; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 20:12:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA00950 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 20:12:14 -0400 Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 20:12:14 -0400 Message-Id: <960415201214_272652436@mail04> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: teaching story [was Re: comment on turning Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 96-04-15 16:44:08 EDT, you write: > >Are you familiar with the story The Wayward Princess?l. > >If anyone would like the story I will be happy to post it. > >Sincerely, > >Julie Hulvey thank you for your posting, comments, and offer. Perhaps the story will be helpful. in peace, Jinavamsa From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 16 00:39:38 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21241; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 21:15:51 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA11847; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 20:41:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA11829; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 20:41:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orion.it.luc.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01046; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 20:39:39 -0400 Received: (from stourk@localhost) by orion.it.luc.edu (8.6.13/8.6.12) id TAA75318; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 19:39:38 -0500 Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 19:39:38 -0500 (CDT) From: Sonia Tourk To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: al-Fakhr al-Razi Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Bismallahi ar-Rahmani ar-Rahim In the name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful Assalamu Alaikum, Peace be upon you all The following biographical information on Fakhr al-Din al-Razi is taken from **The Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law** by Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, 1994 edition, p.1045-6 al-Fakhr al-Razi is Muhammad ibn 'Umar ibn al-Hasan ibn al-Husayn, Abu Abdullah Fakhr al-Din al-Razi born in Rayy, Persia (just south of present-day Tehran, Iran), in 544 A.H./1150 C.E. A Shafi'i scholar of genius and a *mujtahid* Imam in tenets of faith, he was among the foremost figures of his time in mastery of the rational and traditional Islamic sciences, and preserved the religion of Ahl as-Sunna from the deviations of the Mu'tazilites, Shiites, Anthropomorphists, and other aberrant sects of his era by authoring a number of brilliant works that came to enjoy a wide readership among his contemporaries and have remained popular with scholars to this day. His thirty-two volume Koranic exegesis **Mafatih al-ghayb [The keys of the unseen]** is one of the most famous of his works, though he also wrote on tenets of belief, heresiology, fundamentals of Islamic law and faith, scholastic theology, rhetoric, geometry, and poetry in Arabic and persian, in both of which he was a preacher of considerable eloquence. His efforts to purify Islam from the heresies of anthropomorphists reached the point that when unable to answer his arguments against them, they resorted to writing ugly remarks and insinuations on scraps of paper and attaching them to the pulpit (minbar) from which he gave the Friday sermon. He arrived one day and read one of these, and then spoke to those present in an impassioned voice, saying: "This piece of my paper says that my son does such and such. If it is true, he is but a youth and I hope he will repent. It also says my wife does such and such. If it is true, she is a faithless woman. And it says that my servant does such and such. Servants are wont to commit every wrong, except for those Allah protects. But on one of these scraps of paper - and may Allah be praised! - is it written that my son says that Allah is a corporeal body, or that he likens Him to created things, or that my wife believes that, or my servant - So which of the two groups is closer to guidance?" He travelled to Khawarzim and Khurusan, and finally to Herat, Afghanistan, where he died in 606/1210 (al-A'lam (y136), 6.313; and Tabaqat al-Shafi'iyya al-kubra (y128), 8.81-89). From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 16 02:39:02 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21779; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 23:13:06 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA25288; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 22:40:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from soho.ios.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA25273; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 22:40:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (ppp-51.ts-5.nyc.idt.net [206.20.81.126]) by soho.ios.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA25604 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 22:39:02 -0400 Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 22:39:02 -0400 Message-Id: <199604160239.WAA25604@soho.ios.com> X-Sender: kaleema@198.4.75.47 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: "K.Ahmad" Subject: Re: TurningBuddhaWomenIslamWhatever Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:30 AM 4/15/96 -0400, you wrote: >Asalaamu Aleikum wa Rahmatullah -- > >What will you do? >Where will you go? >Who will you ask? >How will you know? > >When every single one >claims to be the One, >Which one is the One? > >Allah, shine light in the darkness! Forgive us, and allow us to come close to >Your Essence. Extend upon us the opportunity to look in the mirror, and >bestow upon us the strength to clean it. > >Sheikh Din Muhammad Abdullah > Wa Aleikum Asalaam What Haven't you done Where haven't you gone Who haven't you asked How come you haven't known When every single one claims to be the One, Which, One are We. Allah, the darkness which You have created Lights my path, For if it was all light I would be blind As in darkness. What, Where, who and How When I look in the mirror It is Your dwelling place I see, But often I regret, I just see me. Kaleem Ahmad From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 16 02:13:47 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15939; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 23:50:52 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA28310; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 23:05:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from wolfe.net by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA28290; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 23:05:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.157.98.141] (sea-ts2-p23.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.141]) by wolfe.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id UAA19974 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 20:06:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: gws@gonzo.wolfe.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 19:13:47 -0700 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: gws@wolfe.net (George Steffen) Subject: Re: hijab (fwd) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalam Alaykum It has always interested me how we confuse seeing with "seeing," the ancient problem of forest for the trees. I still get caught in seeing parts of people instead of their wholeness. In my better moments, a glimpse of soul is far and away the more exciting look. And because I can still be a donkey, I'm quite happy with covering, both of us. Peace and Blessings, Habib N. 786 > >asalaam, > >i have found this to be the experience of nearly all muslim-american >women who cover...they all seem to draw from your theme...honor... >it has always been my opinion that women do not want to be treated as >men, or as equals of men or above men...they just want to be honored and >respected and treated for who they are...women. it's that simple.> >nice post! > >wasalaam, > >abdul ghani > >> >> BismAllahi ar-Rahmani ar-Rahim >> In the name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful >> >> Assalamu Alaikum, >> Peace be upon you all >> >> There have been a lot of postings about women in general and hijab in >> particular lately, and I didn't respond as I was wary of being caught up in >> the fray. However, I felt I should write when recently I read a book by >> Alice Walker called *In Love and in Trouble*, which is an anthology of short >> stories. The first story concerns an African-American woman who is marrying >> a Muslim man, and she doesn't understand why the women in her fiance's >> religion have to cover their hair and sit apart from the men; it really >> bugs her. As I was reading the story, I wanted to physically jump in and >> start talking to the woman, it bothered me so much how she had been so misled >> and thought of it as oppressive. Of course, I couldn't step into the story:) >> Thus, Alhamdulillah I am looking at this as my oppurtunity to give a women's >> perspective on hijab. I was a bit surprised at how many of our brothers on >> the net got so involved in this; anyway this is from a 2-X Chromosome >> netter:) >> >> Hijab makes women to to be respected for who they are, not what they >> look like. Since I started wearing hijab it is impossible for people to >> judge me based on anything except what I do; i.e. they can no longer judge me >> based on what I look like (Well, perhaps they can but to a *very* limited >> extent). Having grown up in American society, this is no small deal. Two of >> my best friends in high school had debilitating eating disorders. >> Alhamdulillah, Thank God, they're physically recovered now, but what is scary >> is that their attitudes regarding themselves and how they look still exists. >> Another friend at Smith, a very feminist college, had been bulimic and >> anorexic. Although she was no longer able to run at all, or walk fast, or do >> anything requiring physical exertion for an extended period of time because >> of how much her body had been ravaged, she was glad that she had had the >> disorders because she was no longer fat. This is the skewed mentality. >> Women in this society, and in every materialistic society, are judged in >> terms of how they look much more than men. We all know of the "meat-market" >> mentality. We are all always surrounded by these billboards of young women. >> This is the "twentieth century?" This is the West, and yes I feel 100% >> comfortable rejecting these aspects of it. >> >> One of the most precious moments of my life was when I observed an >> Indian gentleman walking with his grandmother in the city of Chicago. They >> were going at an easy pace, talking to each other. They were like an island >> unto themselves. I realized that, Insha'Allah if and when I become older, I >> wanted to be treated like this grandmother. I wanted to be respected and >> loved for who I had become. Our alternative is to spend our old age yearning >> for our youth and trying to regain it. >> >> Thus, for me the proof has been in the pudding. If Western society >> truly honored and respected women then perhaps I would be more on the >> defensive; indeed perhaps I never would have started to wear hijab. Any >> feminist would agree that by and large in this society women are objectified, >> valued only for their youth and beauty. I love Islam for honoring women as >> human beings. I love Islam for recognizing that both men and women >> should be shy before Allah, Whose Presence we are always in. Oftentimes I'll >> wear my hijab because it is such an honor, even if I am alone inside of my >> house. I love my shaykh for being a living, breathing example of true Islam >> and for always honoring women. There have been times at gatherings where he >> will simply go and sit and talk to the women, answering questions and sitting >> with them. He addresses the spiritual development of the females on >> the path, as he does for the men. This is living Islam. >> >> >> Any wisdom in this comes from Allah Ta'ala, with the blessings of my >> Shaykh, Shaykh Muhammad Hisham al-Kabbani. Any mistakes come from me. >> >> Peace and blessings on the Beloved Prophet, his noble family, and >> companions. >> >> Your sister, >> Sonia >> >> >> >> From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 16 03:40:09 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18733; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 23:59:59 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA02248; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 23:36:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from argon.GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA02236; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 23:36:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from eprice@localhost) by argon.GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA17084; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 20:40:10 -0700 Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 20:40:09 -0700 (MST) From: Ellen L Price To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: women in the West and elsewhere [was Re: Sufism and Tassawuf In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In all of this discussion on separation of the sexes in prayer, no one has mentioned energy and the different qualities of the energy of men and women. This would be an esoteric reason for the separation. Ellen On Sun, 14 Apr 1996, Lilyan Ila wrote: > > asalaam-u-aleikum > > The story of Hazrat Fatima and the blind man has I'm sure many deeper > meanings that I'm unaware of. I would be most interested if any other list > members know of these and would be willing to share. > > What it means to me is, contrary to what is put forth in much of the > Islamic propaganda the practices for women are for our own spiritual > benefit. Whether or not she covered herself had no impact on the blind > man, but had a profound effect on her own state. I think this is the case > with the issues Fouad referred to - yes, I get far more out of prayers > that are done in seclusion than those in public, although there are good > reasons for doing those as well. If I make the decision to pray in my > room it is for this reason, not because I think it is better for men not > to see me. If I cover myself as sister Sonia expressed so well, it is for > my own benefit. Men are solely responsible for their own behavior and > it is not only oppressive to us but patronizing to them to assume > otherwise. > > Not praying in front of or intermingled with men removes for me the > distraction of body consciousness that would occur otherwise, and that is > why I do it. There is no sense of inferiority attached to it. It is stated > quite clearly and repeated often in the Qur'an that the only differences > in worth that occur between individuals are through spiritual attainment, > not gender, race, nationality etc. > > Lily > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 16 04:14:45 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07419; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 00:38:00 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA06435; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 00:10:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from argon.GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA06423; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 00:10:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from eprice@localhost) by argon.GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA19663; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 21:14:46 -0700 Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 21:14:45 -0700 (MST) From: Ellen L Price To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: comment on turning In-Reply-To: <960415164040_375949591@emout04.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 15 Apr 1996 JHulvey@aol.com wrote: > Let me begin by saying I am not attempting to tell anyone what should and > should not be. I don't belong to an order - why should I argue with any > order's practices? I admit I was a little surprised to find out about this > separation of men and women in prayer in (presumably) all Sufi tariqas in the > West. Perhaps I had not realized that all of them were within Islam...is that > correct? > > I am in a process of questioning those of my assumptions which I am able to > see (precious few!). To this end, I've been doing a lot of writing and thus > paying closer attention to language and to patterns of thinking. > > This letter is not about agreeing or disagreeing with anyone's practices, > only with discussing the reasons for these practices as stated here. > Granted, I should be pulling the plank out of my eye before trying to point > out the splinter in yours. > > In a message dated 96-04-15 11:34:31 EDT, you write: > > >However, if one really ponders the whole of human history, one would be > >totally blind if they didn't see that the males of the species have > >performed their role as they were meant to, just as the women have > >performed their own roles as they were meant to. > > Instead of "as they were meant to", why not say "as I believe or assume they > were meant to"? And have you really pondered the whole of > human history, or just the parts that support your theory? > > > Men, who are endowed by their Creator with a different type of mental > > Again, are you sure about this? > > >and physical nature than women, have acted out their roles as leaders of > >men, shapers and craftsmen of nature and society, and yes, destroyers >of > man, whether directed by Allah or their egos. > >Women, on the other hand, have performed their primary roles as > >mothers and nurturers of mankind, and movers of hearts and souls, and > >teachers of many things. > > I'm wondering how, if I accept your theory, am I to regard those women > to be encountered in Sufi stories who play roles which you reserve for men? > How about the story of the courageous defender of the Prophet (peace be upon > him) as contributed here by G. F. Haddad? > > Also, is moving hearts and souls different from being a leader? Cannot a > teacher said to be a shaper and crafter of nature and society? > > And is this role which you call intrinsic ordained by God or is it societal? > > > > This has been true from the dawn of mankind until the present. > > Now, in the 20th century, those who are enlightened would have us try to > >ingore these basic, intrinisic natures. > > Although I hesitate to say just what has been around since the dawn of > mankind, the urge for domination and power is arguably a stronger force than > that of gender-based roles. By the way, role and nature are not > synonymous...but within traditions, they start looking that way. > > The assumption that only contemporary thinking is "correct" would be as > mistaken as assuming that only traditional thinking is valid, i.e., that its > validity lies within its contemporary or traditional status (which is > circular thinking). > > By your ironic use of the word "enlightened" I wonder if you believe that no > truly enlightened person would disagree with you on this. > > Are you familiar with the story The Wayward Princess? Among other > meanings, I believe that on one level it is a warning against accepting > anyone's definition of what is possible for us. The extremely competent > protagonist carved a life for herself out of a wilderness and, side by side > with her spouse, was a leader of men and women. That the story is about a > princess rather than a prince does not seem accidental. > > If anyone would like the story I will be happy to post it. > > Sincerely, > > Julie Hulvey Yes, yes, I love stories. Ellen > > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 16 04:49:01 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14904; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 01:05:23 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA09900; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 00:49:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA09892; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 00:48:57 -0400 (EDT) From: JHulvey@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA23254 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 00:49:01 -0400 Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 00:49:01 -0400 Message-Id: <960416004901_514724585@mail06> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: teaching story [was Re: comment on turning Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 96-04-15 20:14:19 EDT, you write: >thank you for your posting, comments, and offer. Perhaps the story will be >helpful. >in peace, >Jinavamsa > > Thanks to you! I'll send the story tomorrow, God willing and the creek don't rise..... Your sending me this note rang a mental bell and I remember that you had sent me some information at the end of May about hypnosis in Sufi healing, and I haven't yet thanked you for it. (I haven't followed it up yet, but hope to soon). So thanks again.... Julie From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 16 05:15:48 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22613; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 01:33:16 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id BAA12176; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 01:16:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id BAA12157; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 01:16:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA19411; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 15:15:51 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 15:15:48 +1000 (EST) From: Dien Alfred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: women can't teach kindergarten? In-Reply-To: <3172cf77.39340477@smtp.charm.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum, On Mon, 15 Apr 1996, Anthony Teelucksingh wrote: > Just to follow up on my comments on mixing between the > sexes during dhikir and my comment on "islamic culture" which I > said was moribund. Someone who is very unsympathetic to > religion in general, and islam, in particular, (in the interests > of full disclosure) posted a message to soc.religion.islam which > reports that Sheikh Bin Baz of Saudi Arabia has ruled that women > cannot teach kindergarten children. This is all third hand, but > apparently the sheikh gave as his reasons: 1) women don't have > empathy with children, and 2) it would be the start of the > "abomination of desegregated education." Sheik Bin Baz also > ruled recently (and this I read in the New York Times -- sure, go > ahead and slam my sources ;^) that the earth was flat and that it > does not rotate. How else could one determine east from west, and > where would the bottom be for trees, mountains, rivers, and > oceans? Bin Baz, it should be noted, to my understanding is completely opposed to all Sufi tariqas. To my understanding, Sufi tariqas are completely banned from Saudi Arabia, where Bin Baz is one of the main religious leaders. So, the position of Bin Baz is the position of one of those who would like to see all Sufi tariqas disappear. In my opinion, these sorts of views are the views of Muslims who only know a hollow, empty shell of Islam, and have little of no knowledge of Islam's rich spiritual interior, which is the domain of Tasawwuf (Sufism). Bin Baz's views (quoted above), if true, is just further evidence of his short-sightedness. To me, short-sightedness in religion, and opposing Tasawwuf, both go together! Hopefully, this helps put Bin Baz's views in perspective, in relation to Sufism! (The views of Bin Baz should not be taken as a "typical" Islamic position, either. Bin Baz would be followed only by a minority of Muslims, the Muslims of Saudi Arabia, who also are completely opposed to all Sufi tariqas.) Wassalam, Farid ud-Dien Rice From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 16 06:10:14 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07363; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 02:30:49 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id CAA16013; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 02:11:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id CAA16009; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 02:11:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id XAA22505 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 23:10:18 -0700 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id XAA14986 for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 23:10:15 -0700 Message-Id: <199604160610.XAA14986@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Men and Women, Prayer and Tassawuf To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 23:10:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: from "Ellen L Price" at Apr 15, 96 08:40:09 pm From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: 49960415 assalam alaykum, my kin |From: Ellen L Price |Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 20:40:09 -0700 (MST) |In all of this discussion on separation of the sexes in prayer, no one |has mentioned energy and the different qualities of the energy of men and |women. This would be an esoteric reason for the separation. This is the second mention I have heard of this within the last week in the forums within which I travel online. The first was from a Wiccan (preChristian revivalist) who mentioned that they were separating the males and females because, in hir words, 'women have absorptive and men are passive energies and it works best to worship separately'. I gather that within many Middle-Eastern cultures women are thought of as wild sexual powerhouses which require some sort of 'clipping' or 'covering' in order to be tempered. I have little corraboration as yet, but will let you know if I find this to be true on the whole after speaking with more people about the cultural differences. What kinds of energy differences were you writing about? Is there some reason that men and women are *fundamentally* different as compared to culturally instructed to behave in particular ways? What have you noticed about the men's and women's energy? peace be with you, my kin Haramullah tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 16 02:32:56 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07305; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 02:30:32 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id CAA15903; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 02:09:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from uxadbsrv.asiandevbank.org by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id CAA15865; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 02:09:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.asiandevbank.org ([202.0.28.78]) by uxadbsrv.asiandevbank.org (4.1/050296.01-eef) id AA23595; Tue, 16 Apr 96 14:15:35 HKT Received: from cc:Mail by mail.asiandevbank.org id AA829688823; Tue, 16 Apr 96 14:05:27 MNL Date: Tue, 16 Apr 96 14:05:27 MNL From: "Abbas B. Talib" Encoding: 120 Text Message-Id: <9603168296.AA829688823@mail.asiandevbank.org> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re[2]: comment on turning Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: I would like to say something about men and women being segregated in prayers. I took my mother to the hajj. There in the holiest mosque in Islam in Mecca I noticed men and women praying and performing the Hajj. I never noticed any segregation as all of us practiced the same rituals. When the call for prayer is made everyone who wants to pray stops where they are and face the Kaaba and offer their prayers. With the large crowd of perhaps two million people worshippers during the Hajj I am not aware of any segregation. In fact if a woman were to perform the Hajj alone without being accompanied by family members with her she could be in danger of being molested in the crowd. Being the nature of certain people who may not have high morals such circumstances are possible. So I dont think it is fair to say that segregation is practiced in every circumstances, especially during the Hajj. in fact under the Shafii mathab or sect in Islam a persons Wudu is nullified should you touch someone from the opposite sex who is not a family member such as brother, sister, uncle, Aunt, mother or father. This is very difficult to observe during the Hajj and yet no one can explain this situation, otherwise one has to take the Wudu everytime you touch a member of the opposite sex, whether it is intentional or not. Can anyone explain this situation. In this situation you must understand segeregation would probably be good if one is concerned about the morals of certain people in the crowd. So unless you experience certain bad experience precaution is the best answer and it is necessary in many cases. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: comment on turning Author: tariqas@facteur.std.com at INTERNET Date: 16/4/96 12:48 PM On Mon, 15 Apr 1996 JHulvey@aol.com wrote: > Let me begin by saying I am not attempting to tell anyone what should and > should not be. I don't belong to an order - why should I argue with any > order's practices? I admit I was a little surprised to find out about this > separation of men and women in prayer in (presumably) all Sufi tariqas in the > West. Perhaps I had not realized that all of them were within Islam...is that > correct? > > I am in a process of questioning those of my assumptions which I am able to > see (precious few!). To this end, I've been doing a lot of writing and thus > paying closer attention to language and to patterns of thinking. > > This letter is not about agreeing or disagreeing with anyone's practices, > only with discussing the reasons for these practices as stated here. > Granted, I should be pulling the plank out of my eye before trying to point > out the splinter in yours. > > In a message dated 96-04-15 11:34:31 EDT, you write: > > >However, if one really ponders the whole of human history, one would be > >totally blind if they didn't see that the males of the species have > >performed their role as they were meant to, just as the women have > >performed their own roles as they were meant to. > > Instead of "as they were meant to", why not say "as I believe or assume they > were meant to"? And have you really pondered the whole of > human history, or just the parts that support your theory? > > > Men, who are endowed by their Creator with a different type of mental > > Again, are you sure about this? > > >and physical nature than women, have acted out their roles as leaders of > >men, shapers and craftsmen of nature and society, and yes, destroyers >of > man, whether directed by Allah or their egos. > >Women, on the other hand, have performed their primary roles as > >mothers and nurturers of mankind, and movers of hearts and souls, and > >teachers of many things. > > I'm wondering how, if I accept your theory, am I to regard those women > to be encountered in Sufi stories who play roles which you reserve for men? > How about the story of the courageous defender of the Prophet (peace be upon > him) as contributed here by G. F. Haddad? > > Also, is moving hearts and souls different from being a leader? Cannot a > teacher said to be a shaper and crafter of nature and society? > > And is this role which you call intrinsic ordained by God or is it societal? > > > > This has been true from the dawn of mankind until the present. > > Now, in the 20th century, those who are enlightened would have us try to > >ingore these basic, intrinisic natures. > > Although I hesitate to say just what has been around since the dawn of > mankind, the urge for domination and power is arguably a stronger force than > that of gender-based roles. By the way, role and nature are not > synonymous...but within traditions, they start looking that way. > > The assumption that only contemporary thinking is "correct" would be as > mistaken as assuming that only traditional thinking is valid, i.e., that its > validity lies within its contemporary or traditional status (which is > circular thinking). > > By your ironic use of the word "enlightened" I wonder if you believe that no > truly enlightened person would disagree with you on this. > > Are you familiar with the story The Wayward Princess? Among other > meanings, I believe that on one level it is a warning against accepting > anyone's definition of what is possible for us. The extremely competent > protagonist carved a life for herself out of a wilderness and, side by side > with her spouse, was a leader of men and women. That the story is about a > princess rather than a prince does not seem accidental. > > If anyone would like the story I will be happy to post it. > > Sincerely, > > Julie Hulvey Yes, yes, I love stories. Ellen > > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 16 11:03:36 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08327; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 06:23:40 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id GAA24868; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 06:01:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id GAA24863; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 06:01:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sale.cscs.fi.cnr.it by mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA14855; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 12:03:36 +0100 Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 12:03:36 +0100 Message-Id: <9604161103.AA14855@mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it> X-Sender: sale@risc.idg.fi.cnr.it (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: sale@mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.it (sale@cscs.fi.cnr.it) Subject: Re: women can't teach kindergarten? Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > Just to follow up on my comments on mixing between the >sexes during dhikir and my comment on "islamic culture" which I >said was moribund. Someone who is very unsympathetic to >religion in general, and islam, in particular, (in the interests >of full disclosure) posted a message to soc.religion.islam which >reports that Sheikh Bin Baz of Saudi Arabia has ruled that women >cannot teach kindergarten children. This is all third hand, but >apparently the sheikh gave as his reasons: 1) women don't have >empathy with children, and 2) it would be the start of the >"abomination of desegregated education." Sheik Bin Baz also >ruled recently (and this I read in the New York Times -- sure, go >ahead and slam my sources ;^) that the earth was flat and that it >does not rotate. How else could one determine east from west, and >where would the bottom be for trees, mountains, rivers, and >oceans? I also caught a CNN story (yes, I know I need to work on >my sources ;^) on the Taliban of Afghanistan who have prohibited >women from teaching male pupils. Since there are few male >teachers in areas controlled by the Taliban , the boys, according >to one, don't learn anything because they have no teacher. Well >on the way to creating a stone age society, but this time with >Kalashnikov in one hand and a Qur'an in the other. > > I left Catholicism because I was no good at accepting all >received dogma at face value -- to be accepted as a matter of >faith. I am attracted to sufism for the same reason. > > Assalam Alaikum. > >-- > >Tony > >Anthony Teelucksingh > >"Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you > find a trout in the milk." -- Henry David Thoreau > > > > Dear Brother Teeluck Saudi Arabia is under Whahabi Fitna so the Taalibani movement, Payed from Saudi arabia and CIA. WAHABI IS OUT, OUT, OUT, OUT, OUT OF ISLAM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Any news and information from this font are dangerous more for western people than for muslim, that kows wellthe Whabi Fitna. Load from internet the book "History of a British Spy" for knowing the real aim and origin of Wahabiya. Site:Http//www.idsoline.com/userweb/ihlas/ SALAM WA BARAKA HAMZA NAJMUDDIN From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 16 11:28:51 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22457; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 07:41:50 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id HAA28130; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 07:28:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from weaver.weaver.guilford.k12.nc.us by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id HAA28120; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 07:28:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by weaver.weaver.guilford.k12.nc.us id HAA29782; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 07:28:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 07:28:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Bob King X-Sender: bking@weaver To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: TurningBuddhaWomenIslamWhatever In-Reply-To: <199604160239.WAA25604@soho.ios.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 15 Apr 1996, K.Ahmad wrote: > When I look in the mirror > It is Your dwelling place I see, > But often I regret, I just see me. What a nice and brilliant turn to take K. Ahmad! Thank you. In my mirror this looks like wisdom! Bob King From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 16 12:45:42 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02723; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:14:06 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA03373; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 08:49:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA03369; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 08:49:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14505; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 08:45:42 -0400 Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 08:45:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: SHAIKH SERIF AL-RIFAI IN NYC IN MAY (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:48:33 -0400 (EDT) From:tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [ZIAulHUQ@aol.com] >From habib@world.std.com Sat Apr 13 22:48:32 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA09350; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:48:31 -0400 (EDT) From: ZIAulHUQ@aol.com Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13798; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:47:46 -0400 Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA22083 for Tariqas@world.std.com.; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:47:45 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:47:45 -0400 Message-Id: <960413224745_271325917@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: Tariqas@world.std.com Subject: SHAIKH SERIF AL-RIFAI IN NYC IN MAY HU, Shaikh Serif of the Rifai-Marufi Order of Istanbul will be in NYC and will conduct Zikrs at 7:30 PM on May 5th, May 19th and May 26th to which all are welcome at " Fazil's Dance Studio" on the 3rd. floor at 743 8th Avenue ( between 46th and 47th streets). Now residing in North Carolina Shaikh Serif is the head of the Rifai-Marufi Order of America, and can be reached at: M. SERIF CATALKAYA RIFAI MARUFI ORDER OF AMERICA P.O. Box 296 CARRBORO, NC 27510 919-933-0772 For more information on the Zikrs in NYC call 212-265-4345 or the studio at 212-541-4455, or Email at this address. Also, if you wish, join Serif Baba and dervishes at the mehzar of Hz. Baba Bawa in Philadelphia on May 12th after noon prayers. HU From GHADDAD@ccmail.sunysb.edu Tue Apr 16 14:26:27 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11988; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:26:39 -0400 Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA06865; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:26:33 -0400 (EDT) From: GHADDAD@ccmail.sunysb.edu Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by ccmail.sunysb.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #8051) id <01I3LRSDFZN49I4WX9@ccmail.sunysb.edu> for tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:26:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:26:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Re[2]: comment on turning To: tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Message-Id: <01I3LRSDG4CI9I4WX9@ccmail.sunysb.edu> X-Vms-To: in%"tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Status: RO X-Status: State University of New York at Stony Brook Stony Brook, NY G. Fouad Haddad 16-Apr-1996 09:11am EDT FROM: GHADDAD TO: "Abbas B. Talib" ( _tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com ) Subject: RE: Re[2]: comment on turning as-salamu alaykum, This is a followup to Br. B. Talibs' remarks on mixed prayer in hajj (Pilgrimage), and the nullification of wudu (ablution) according to the Shafi`i madhhab. Regarding the first: In hajj, it is permitted to pray all together without regard for segregation of men and women due to the difficulty of doing so. Also in hajj, there is a much, much higher awareness of the imperative to remember God in your every action, and at the same time it is a period of intense testing of your patience, your spiritual state etc. I haven't gone to hajj. Insha Allah, next year. But my wife went before we married. She said that hajj is a time and place where one's level is made manifest for themsevels and for all others to see. That is: if you are a person that gets angry, it shows; if you are a man that likes the company of women, it showds there; if you are a person who sleeps a lot, it shows there; etc. The fact of praying in mixed congregation is "pushed to the back" of many greater tests as it were, most of them coming from one's self. But one of the greater tests is being shoved during circumambulation of the ka`ba by other groups who lock arms in order to stay together. Any way, married couples or mixed groups do the same in order not to get lost: i.e. they stay together at all times. It is a huge crowd. So the brotehr is right that general stipulations for segregation don't apply in the Pilgrimage, however, the reason for the stipulations -- remembrance of God -- not only applies, but is multiplied literally [I mean, according to the Shari`a, not metaphorically] a thousandfold. Concerning the problem with ablution: I never heard a Shafi`i say what you say, but it is always non-shafi`is (unless you are Shafi`i) who surmise it must be difficult to keep it in mixed company. Not at all. Even when you have to give and receive small change from shopkeepers of the opposite sex, you can do so without physical contact, and that is the closest you have to come to it in the majority of cases. Furthermore: a person who generally follows the Shafi`i madhhab has a dispensation in cases of difficulty, i.e. when his or her situation makes the application of a certain stipulation too difficult to keep. In this case, one may touch without nullification, as in the Hanafi madhhab, but the latter still considers it forbidden although it does not nullify ablution. God knows best. Best regards, Fouad Haddad Naqshbandi-Haqqani Foundation From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 16 14:26:49 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12605; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:58:46 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA07309; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:29:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA07299; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:29:57 -0400 (EDT) From: GHADDAD@ccmail.sunysb.edu Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12238; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:26:57 -0400 Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by ccmail.sunysb.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #8051) id <01I3LRSU56PS9I4WX9@ccmail.sunysb.edu> for tariqas@world.std.com; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:26:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:26:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: FWD: RE: Re[2]: comment on turning To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: <01I3LRSU5CDE9I4WX9@ccmail.sunysb.edu> X-Vms-To: in%"tariqas@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: State University of New York at Stony Brook Stony Brook, NY G. Fouad Haddad 16-Apr-1996 09:26am EDT FROM: GHADDAD TO: Remote Addressee ( _tariqas@world.std.com ) Subject: FWD: RE: Re[2]: comment on turning G. Fouad Haddad 16-Apr-1996 09:11am EDT TO: "Abbas B. Talib" ( _tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com ) Subject: RE: Re[2]: comment on turning as-salamu alaykum, This is a followup to Br. B. Talibs' remarks on mixed prayer in hajj (Pilgrimage), and the nullification of wudu (ablution) according to the Shafi`i madhhab. Regarding the first: In hajj, it is permitted to pray all together without regard for segregation of men and women due to the difficulty of doing so. Also in hajj, there is a much, much higher awareness of the imperative to remember God in your every action, and at the same time it is a period of intense testing of your patience, your spiritual state etc. I haven't gone to hajj. Insha Allah, next year. But my wife went before we married. She said that hajj is a time and place where one's level is made manifest for themsevels and for all others to see. That is: if you are a person that gets angry, it shows; if you are a man that likes the company of women, it showds there; if you are a person who sleeps a lot, it shows there; etc. The fact of praying in mixed congregation is "pushed to the back" of many greater tests as it were, most of them coming from one's self. But one of the greater tests is being shoved during circumambulation of the ka`ba by other groups who lock arms in order to stay together. Any way, married couples or mixed groups do the same in order not to get lost: i.e. they stay together at all times. It is a huge crowd. So the brotehr is right that general stipulations for segregation don't apply in the Pilgrimage, however, the reason for the stipulations -- remembrance of God -- not only applies, but is multiplied literally [I mean, according to the Shari`a, not metaphorically] a thousandfold. Concerning the problem with ablution: I never heard a Shafi`i say what you say, but it is always non-shafi`is (unless you are Shafi`i) who surmise it must be difficult to keep it in mixed company. Not at all. Even when you have to give and receive small change from shopkeepers of the opposite sex, you can do so without physical contact, and that is the closest you have to come to it in the majority of cases. Furthermore: a person who generally follows the Shafi`i madhhab has a dispensation in cases of difficulty, i.e. when his or her situation makes the application of a certain stipulation too difficult to keep. In this case, one may touch without nullification, as in the Hanafi madhhab, but the latter still considers it forbidden although it does not nullify ablution. God knows best. Best regards, Fouad Haddad Naqshbandi-Haqqani Foundation From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 16 13:46:05 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02449; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 10:14:19 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA09135; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:46:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA09131; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:45:59 -0400 (EDT) From: JHulvey@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA07497 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:46:05 -0400 Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:46:05 -0400 Message-Id: <960416094603_471008377@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: JHulvey@aol.com Subject: The Wayward Princess Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: I apologize for this shortened form of the story...but I'd also rather not violate copyright. I offer it in the hopes that you will look up the full version, which can be found on p.63 of Idries Shah's _Tales of the Dervishes_. (direct quotes as indicated). Perhaps the many possible readings of this story will give us something to discuss other than the topic which brought it to mind! - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >A certain king believed that what he had been taught, and what he >believed, was right. In many ways he was a just man, but he was one >whose ideas were limited. One day he called his three daughters together and told them that all he had was or would be theirs; that they not only owed their very existence to him, but that their fate depended on his will. Two of the daughters agreed, but the third one said: >Although my position demands that I be obediant to the laws, I cannot >believe that my fate must always be determined by your opinions. The king had the daughter imprisoned, which logically proved, at least to him, that he was the author of her fate. He visited her now and then, but though she was now pale and weak, she remained steadfast in her refusal to agree with the king on this point. After some years, her father had had enough. He was annoyed and somewhat concerned about how this situation might appear to others (though most people in his country assumed his daughter must have done something terribly wrong), but nevertheless he was merciful. Although he could legally kill her, he chose instead to banish her to the wilderness adjoining the kingdom >inhabited only by wild beasts and such eccentric outcasts who >cannot survive in our rational society. There you will soon discover >whether you can have an existence apart from that of your family; >and, if you can, whether you prefer it to ours. Soon the princess found herself in a wild land for which her sheltered childhood had not prepared her. But she soon learned that shelter could be found in a cave, that fruit and nuts grew on certain trees, and >that warmth came from the Sun. This wilderness had a climate and a way >of existing of its own. Not only did the princess survive: she thrived. >After some time she had so ordered her life so that she had water form >springs, vegetables from the earth, and fire from a smouldering tree. >"Here is a life whose elements belong together, form a completeness, >yet neither individually or collectively do they obey the commands of my >father the king. One day a lost traveller >as it happened, a man of great riches and ingenuity came along. He fell in love with the princess and together they travelled back to his country to be married. After a time, they decided to return to the wilderness >where they built a huge and prosperous city where their wisdom, >resources, and faith were expressed to the fullest possible extent. >The "eccentrics" and other outcasts, many of them thought to be >madmen, harmonized completely and usefully with this many sided life This city became reknowned for its power and beauty, which soon eclipsed that of the kingdom ruled by the princess' father. >By unanimous choice of the inhabitants, the princess and her husband >were elected to the joint monarchy of this new and ideal kingdom. Hearing stories of this new realm, the old king decided one day to visit it. >As with bowed head he slowly approached the foot of the throne where >the young couple sat and raised his eyes to meet those whose repute of >justice, prosperity and understanding far exceeded his own,, he was able >to catch the murmured words of his daughter: >"You see, Father, every man and woman has his own fate and his own choice." From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 16 15:32:45 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15096; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 12:33:12 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA21045; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 11:31:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from WIZARD.COLORADO.EDU by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA21032; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 11:31:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from granger.colorado.edu by WIZARD.COLORADO.EDU (PMDF #12158) id <01I3LRXL1JK08Y646W@WIZARD.COLORADO.EDU>; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:30 GMT Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:32:45 -0600 From: Mike Granger Subject: RE: comment on turning To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960416153245.09ef2378@daryl.colorado.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: granger_m@daryl.colorado.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 06:32 PM 4/15/96 -0400, you wrote: >On Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:34:38 -0600, you wrote: > > > >> First of all, my apology for coming off so strong. I can very well >>sympathize with feelings such as that which brother James expressed in his >>original post. But I am, on this one issue of separation during prayer, >>very clear as to it's correctness. I don't believe there is any so-called >>middle-ground to this. Anyone who has ever prayed in a very crowded Mosque >>understands that >>mixing sexes during prayer would require physical contact between them, and >>such physical contact would, unless one were a perfect Saint, cause a >>certain amount of distraction from the worship. Now, there probably is not >>any passage in the Holy Quran that speaks of this separation during Salat, >>but there is plenty of material in it from which one can derive the >>understanding and necessity of the practice. For me, knowing very well that >>this is what the Perfect One instilled, it is enough. > > Well, that's the question, isn't it? Is this what God >established, or are we mulling over the prejudices of men? Why, >sure, I've prayed in a crowded masjid where I couldn't even >completely place my forehead to the ground because of the >crowding. As I mentioned, there are practical reasons for the >separation, but how does one come to the conclusion that it is >mandated by God, and consequently a sin if the segregation by sex >is not done. For example, I see nothing wrong with mixed praying >in an uncrowded masjid (and I hope all of them are always >crowded!), or mixed praying in dhikir. To my mind, women or >their sexuality, privately expressed, are not a source of sin >(and as a recovered Catholic, I know well the opposite view). > It's my belief that if it was the practice of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), then that is equivalent to being mandated by Allah, especially when we are talking about a purely religious practice. Period. As to whether it is a sin, you seem to think that perhaps I had implied that any individual or group acting to the contrary might be committing a sin. Well, maybe yes, maybe no, only Allah Himself truly decides what is sinning. Sinning has as much to do with intention as with the sinful act, and I did NOT imply that mixed praying was a manifestation of sinful intent. Further, to my mind, women or men and their sexuality privately expressed are not a source of sinning, as long as certain things that we know are haram are not done. However, there is nothing PRIVATE about a Mosque, and any sexuality expressed in a Mosque is flat-out unwelcome and a source of fitna. >>As to "Islamic culture", there are as many Islamic cultures as there are Islamic countries >>in the world, and I suppose some could be considered moribund. I think that >>most of that morbidness is a result of a spiritual stagnancy that has >>settled in over the last century or two, thanks in good part to the >>westernization and modernization of social and moral values. I agree with >>you totally on the necessity of questioning practices, but before one labels >>such an inherent part of Islam "baloney", they should first spend a little >>more time trying to learn what the wisdom in it might be. > > Baloney is not the word I used. And who would argue >that westernization and modernization is not without its >problems? I did not mean to dismiss islamic cultures entirely, >but only in the context of the status of women. It is true, of >course, that it depends on your point of view and that's what we >are debating. For example, I've read posts in soc.religion.islam >from sisters who believe that their rights have been taken away >because men no longer have to support them. That's one way to >look at it, I suppose. On the other hand, women can choose for >themselves (and most don't have the choice these days) whether >they want to work and how. But let's look further at the >so-called islamic values concerning the status of women. > Baloney is the word that was used by the original poster. I must say that to a large extent I agree with you in that the great majority of Islamic coutries, women do not enjoy the rights that they should have, and that the men use supposed Islamic example to justify this suppresion of rights. > We all know of the specific rights given to women by the >Holy Qur'an. At the time that the Book was revealed, these >rights were revolutionary given the Arab mores and culture of the >time (the companions didn't all accept these changes overnight, >and some resisted -- although unquestionably a marvelous man, >'Umar apparently didn't suffer women gladly). Somewhere along >the line, the rights given (and I think the better word is >*reinstated* since the Qur'an brought no new religion, but simply >reasserted the religion of Abraham) to women by the Qur'an became >a ceiling on their social and legal life rather than the floor >that I think it was intended to be. > > > >> Please define what exactly you mean by equal, and further, how it >>would apply to the practice of Islam. There's plenty of claptrap in any >>topic of discussion, as Sayiddina 'Ali once said, "until you have perfected >>yourself, everything you utter is from your ego." > > As I wrote it, I knew that someone would ask me what I >mean by equality :^). Simply put, what I mean is that a woman may >do anything a man can do within the biological and intellectual >limits of the particular woman and man in question. Yes, on >average, men are physically stronger than women, but I've met a >few women where that was definitely not true. My point is that >you cannot generalize about the abilities of women and men and >then conclude that these generalities are God-given differences. > > Of course you can generalize about the GENERAL attributes of men vs. women, and of course they are God-given; isn't God the Creator, and isn't HE the one who endow's us with all of our attributes and abilities??? That's my point, and your point that there are always exceptions to any rules is well taken. The exceptions do not nullify the reality of the generalizations, nor the need to have rules and guidlines on which to base our religion and lives that are based upon generalities. For instance, it is prohibited for a Muslim to drink alcohol. Now, I could make the arguement that, hey, when I get home from work after a hard day at the office, I really want to settle down with an ice cold Moosehead. This would not necessarily make me an alcoholic, and I would make sure that I've regained total sobriety before I perform any Salat or whatever. I promise, Scout's honor, that I won't drink any more than one beer a day. Now, based upon my assertion, and the fact that most of the American male Muslims I know would make the same assertion, does this mean that we really don't need the adhere to the prohibition on drinking? Is this one of those "outdated", or just unnecessary rules? >> So, you understand the reasons for the separation in prayer; good. >>That's what I was attempting to address. Yes, a good portion of the >>male-kind look down upon women-kind, and this is very wrong indeed, and has >>caused too much suffering for those of the fairer sex over the ages. >>However, if one really ponders the whole of human history, one would be >>totally blind if they didn't see that the males of the species have >>performed their role as they were meant to, just as the women have performed >>their own roles as they were meant to. Men, who are endowed by their >>Creator with a different type of mental and physical nature than women, have >>acted out their roles as leaders of men, shapers and craftsmen of nature and >>society, and yes, destroyers of man, whether directed by Allah or their >>egos. Women, on the other hand, have performed their primary roles as >>mothers and nurturers of mankind, and movers of hearts and souls, and >>teachers of many things. This has been true from the dawn of mankind until >>the present. Now, in the 20th century, those who are enlightened would have >>us try to ingore these basic, intrinisic natures. Everyone must be "equal", >>likes cows in a field. > > This illustrates what I call a generality gone awry. This >is a stereotypical assessment of the sexes which serves >(surprise!) the interests of men. These days, a similar argument >is made in the US with respect to race. It is now fashionable in >some circles to refer to the inferiority of some races, and in >fact, big dollars are made by publishing "scientific" studies of >this view, ie. the whole "Bell Curve" controversy. Why is it so >easy to pigeonhole women with the same stereotype, but happily, >no one in his or her right mind would advocate the same view with >respect to race? Your view of the "natural state" of women and >men is not new, and I submit, not valid -- either for yesterday >or for today. > I would submit to you, again, that the exceptions don't nullify what, in my mind, can be generally observed, and certainly shown by the whole of human history, that women and men have some very basic differences in their psycholgical makeup, not just physical. The thing on race is of course ludicrous. Now tell me, here in 1996, in the good 'ol US of A, how in hell are women being "pigeon-holed?" You clearly choose to ignore what is so plain to so many, as maybe a good lawyer should. > I'm a lawyer by trade (and I've noticed no intellectual >or emotional difference between the female and the male judge, or >lawyer -- "fairer" sex indeed!) and your argument reminds me of >the Congressional debate concerning the watershed 1964 Civil >Rights Act (no, I'm not that old, but this stuff is written >down). The southern representatives were at their wits end to >find a way to continue to deny fundamental human rights to some >8% of the American population. Recognizing that the time had come >(overdue, in fact) for simple justice, the opponents of the >legislation decided to add sex as an additional basis of >prohibited discrimination (ie. race, color, creed, and religion). >Their view was that sex was so obviously a legitimate basis for >discrimination, so God-given, so natural, that no one could >possibly vote for legislation that so usurped the natural order >of things and the entire legislation would therefore go down to >defeat. The legislation passed -- religion, culture, and values >notwithstanding. My point, restated, is that men and women are >equal in all respects -- people make the choice for themselves >the roles they want. If a woman believes that it is her right to >be supported, simply because she is a woman, and she finds a man >who agrees with her -- more power to them. > > You can equate the race issue with discrimination against women (of course it exists and is blatant in alot of areas and ways) if you like, but the two things are different, and happen for different reasons. It sounds like you're one of those who have this ingrained conception that perhaps the white males in this country are all of a group mind when it comes to the suppresion of rights of everyone but themselves. Personally, you can't make me swallow that. I don't disagree with the last point you make, except they are NOT equal in certain aspects regarding their basic psychological nature's, as, again, manifested by thousands of years of human history. Again, "equal" to me is a stupid word to use when it comes to recognizing commonalities and differences between the sexes. > > >> Differences in interpretation are certainly an integral part in the >>stuudy and practice of any complicated system, as every man has their own >>unique mind, but I don't think that Islam or it's practice is tied down to >>East, West, or any time. It is, as the Prophet declared, for all mankind, >>for all time. There is interpretation, and then there is refusal to accept. > > Surely you're not saying that disagreement with you or >the school of law, or imam, you follow is not a matter of >interpretation but a refusal to accept the truth? No, you're the one who seems to say that about me. > > I've gotten a bit far afield from the original point of >mixing in a masjid. However, I believe that my comments are on >point with the views expressed in posts on the topic. > > Assalam Alaikum. > > > Wa alaykum Salam. >-- > >Tony > >Anthony Teelucksingh > >"Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you > find a trout in the milk." -- Henry David Thoreau > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 16 17:14:07 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09500; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:50:38 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id NAA03242; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:16:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id NAA03238; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:16:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay3.jaring.my by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14814; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:14:15 -0400 Received: (from maarof@localhost) by relay3.jaring.my (8.7.1/8.7.1) id BAA22430; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 01:14:07 +0800 (MYT) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 01:14:07 +0800 (MYT) Message-Id: <199604161714.BAA22430@relay3.jaring.my> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Subject: Jamaluddin Afghani To: tariqas@world.std.com X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A Dear friends in tariqah, Several years ago in a dream: Jamaluddin Afghani handed "the dreamer" a bottle of ink. That dream remains a mystery to the dreamer, and he is puzzled because he didn't know whether Jamaluddin Afghani a sufi or not. If he (Jamaluddin) followed any tariqah, which tariqah he belonged? To anyone who knows the answer, please reply personally to me: maarof@pc.jaring.my thank you From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 16 18:12:14 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03544; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 15:15:35 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA10224; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:18:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA10208; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:18:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orion.it.luc.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22558; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:12:42 -0400 Received: (from stourk@localhost) by orion.it.luc.edu (8.6.13/8.6.12) id NAA106564; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:12:17 -0500 Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:12:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Sonia Tourk To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: al-Fakhr al-Razi (corrected) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: I made a tremendous error in my previous posting about this. I have changed it in the version below. The error was in typing "but on one of these scraps of paper" whereas the point of the story lies in it reading, "but on *none* of these papers..." It's a beneficial story, Insha'Allah, and I apologize to those of you who read it in its incorrect version. Alhamdulillah, the error has taught me humility and may Allah Ta'ala bless the one who pointed out my mistake. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 19:39:38 -0500 (CDT) From: Sonia Tourk To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: al-Fakhr al-Razi Bismallahi ar-Rahmani ar-Rahim In the name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful Assalamu Alaikum, Peace be upon you all The following biographical information on Fakhr al-Din al-Razi is taken from **The Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law** by Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, 1994 edition, p.1045-6 al-Fakhr al-Razi is Muhammad ibn 'Umar ibn al-Hasan ibn al-Husayn, Abu Abdullah Fakhr al-Din al-Razi born in Rayy, Persia (just south of present-day Tehran, Iran), in 544 A.H./1150 C.E. A Shafi'i scholar of genius and a *mujtahid* Imam in tenets of faith, he was among the foremost figures of his time in mastery of the rational and traditional Islamic sciences, and preserved the religion of Ahl as-Sunna from the deviations of the Mu'tazilites, Shiites, Anthropomorphists, and other aberrant sects of his era by authoring a number of brilliant works that came to enjoy a wide readership among his contemporaries and have remained popular with scholars to this day. His thirty-two volume Koranic exegesis **Mafatih al-ghayb [The keys of the unseen]** is one of the most famous of his works, though he also wrote on tenets of belief, heresiology, fundamentals of Islamic law and faith, scholastic theology, rhetoric, geometry, and poetry in Arabic and persian, in both of which he was a preacher of considerable eloquence. His efforts to purify Islam from the heresies of anthropomorphists reached the point that when unable to answer his arguments against them, they resorted to writing ugly remarks and insinuations on scraps of paper and attaching them to the pulpit (minbar) from which he gave the Friday sermon. He arrived one day and read one of these, and then spoke to those present in an impassioned voice, saying: "This piece of my paper says that my son does such and such. If it is true, he is but a youth and I hope he will repent. It also says my wife does such and such. If it is true, she is a faithless woman. And it says that my servant does such and such. Servants are wont to commit every wrong, except for those Allah protects. But on none of these scraps of paper - and may Allah be praised! - is it written that my son says that Allah is a corporeal body, or that he likens Him to created things, or that my wife believes that, or my servant - So which of the two groups is closer to guidance?" He travelled to Khawarzim and Khurusan, and finally to Herat, Afghanistan, where he died in 606/1210 (al-A'lam (y136), 6.313; and Tabaqat al-Shafi'iyya al-kubra (y128), 8.81-89). From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 16 18:56:45 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14043; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 15:31:20 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA15107; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 15:01:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA15103; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 15:01:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23416; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:58:18 -0400 Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id LAA11315 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 11:56:48 -0700 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id LAA17279 for tariqas@world.std.com; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 11:56:45 -0700 Message-Id: <199604161856.LAA17279@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: sex division/wudu nullification To: tariqas@world.std.com (Tariqas Elist) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 11:56:45 -0700 (PDT) From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: 49960416 assalam alaykum, my kin |From: "Abbas B. Talib" |Date: Tue, 16 Apr 96 14:05:27 MNL |of certain people who may not have high morals such circumstances are possible. |...under the Shafii mathab or sect in Islam a persons Wudu is nullified |should you touch someone from the opposite sex who is not a family member |such as brother, sister, uncle, Aunt, mother or father. This appears to be related to the sex-division issue in that there is some sort of difference presumed between the sexes and it affects spirituality. I would like to know more about how the sexes are seen in Middle-Eastern countries and why touching the opposite sex during spiritual practice (or at other times!) may be problematic (to what does it lead?, why?). In America this is *not* part of our culture, and so can be confusing and important that those who are unfamiliar come to a better understanding of Arab/Muslim culture and its preferences in order to work out salat compromises amongst us and conform to the desires of Allah. This is in small part what I see as part of the goals of sufism. If you have ideas about this difference between men and women (especially if you have heard them extensively, from an authority *you* trust, or it has always been a family custom), I'd love to hear about this in Tariqas, from whom you learned of this, a brief anecdote which confirmed it for you, and anything else pertinent which you think Americans should know in order not to be shocked/confused/etc. Thank you for your time. peace be with you, my kin. Haramullah tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 16 19:20:05 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16409; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:13:05 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA17551; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 15:24:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA17542; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 15:24:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from comp.uark.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06660; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 15:20:16 -0400 Received: (from mkahf@localhost) by comp.uark.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA22105; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:20:07 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:20:05 -0500 (CDT) From: Mohja Kahf To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: You May Call Her "Sister President" (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum, all. Hope you enjoy this brief article. Dr. Mohja Kahf Assistant Professor University of Arkansas English Department You May Call Her "Sister President" We met for breakfast by the bay in Panama City, Florida. The sea was glorifying Allah in frothy eddies. "How did you get to be president of the Islamic center in this small, mostly conservative community?" I asked Mrs. Iman Elkadi (nee Abu Saud). "W e wanted a woman on the board," she said. "Just as a board member. It never occurred to me that I would be president." She opened a honey packet. "Who's "we"?" I asked, tearing into my eggs and hash browns. She began to tick off the women who supported the move to make new positions for women on the Board of the Bay County Islamic Center. Then she stopped and said, "You know, I don't think there were any women who did not want a woman on the board. And a lot of the men were supportive, too." The women realized that without a woman participating directly in Board meetings, they would continued to be uninformed and out of the loop of decision-making on issues important to the whole community, and not l east to themselves as women. The women's struggle for involvement and representation began during 1988. To get new Board positions created for women, there had to be an amendment to the Constitution of the Center, and it had to be voted in by the general membership. When it came time to vote, someone actually raised the question of whether women could e ven take part in the voting. After a vigorous discussion, the General Assembly decided that family membership did in fact entitle both the husband and the wife to individual votes. Then the Assembly, rather than create new positions specifically for wo men, agreed that women could run for existing board seats. "If they won, they won, and if they lost, they lost -- just like anyone else," Mrs. Elkadi said. She took a sip of traditional medicinal tea, which caught the waitress' eye. They began a long discussion about medicinal teas. Outside, the wind blew the sea into grey swirls. Not one but two women, the other being Mrs. Belinda Shaaban, won enough votes to be on the five-seat committee that year, 1994. Mrs. Elkadi garnered the most votes of all the candidates, male or female. "No one expected a woman to get the most votes," she said with a smile. "It never even occurred to me that I would become president." The By-laws provide that whichever committee member gets the most votes becomes president, so Mrs. Elkadi became the first woman president of the Panama City Islamic Ce nter, and, I believe, of any Islamic center in the U.S. and Canada. Following that, she served as Treasurer in 1995. She declined to run for a position this year. "I don't know why anybody would want to hang on to that power," she said, finishing off h er plate. "It's a huge burden of responsibilities." What did the presence of women on the Board accomplish ? "I think it had a civilizing effect," Mrs. Elkadi said drily. "People had to behave better during Board meetings." She had the additional advantage of being the oldest Board member. "Age helps," she noted. One of the achievements of Mrs. Elkadi's tenure was the proceduralization of the decision-making process, which had been more personalized and informal. "The men used to have board meetings in each other's homes, which automatically excludes people. W e stopped that. Board meetings were held in the mosque at the same time each month. Meeting notices were posted. They were open -- anyone could attend." Minutes of meetings were kept in good order and available for perusal. Membership policies were regularized and frequent users of the mosque facilities encouraged to register as members. Keys to the mosque -- touchy items in some communities -- were made available to any member upon payment of dues. Was there any opposition to a woman taking leadership of the Islamic center? "A few men phoned my husband and said this was unIslamic and so forth. What they didn't understand was that being president of a center is simply an administrative job. It ha s nothing necessarily to do with being imam. Then there were a few women who were scandalized. They said, 'astaghfirullah.' But," she added, "I don't think we should disparage the traditionalists. They are merely responding based on what they know. " The Shura Council of ISNA (Islamic Society of North America) officially accepts that women can be presidents and leaders of Islamic organizations, and several young women have served as president of MYNA (Muslim Youth of North America). Of Egyptian origin, Mrs. Elkadi has raised four daughters in the United States with her husband, Dr. Ahmed Elkadi. The four are grown and Mrs. Elkadi is now raising two grandsons as well, part of the reason why she decided not to take part in committee work this year. We left the restaurant, our headscarves flapping in the Florida gale. "I don't think of myself as a woman," Mrs Elkadi said. Noticing the surprised expression on my face, she added "I think of myself as a human being. What's important is what we do." From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 16 20:02:47 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28402; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:32:32 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA21742; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:02:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from halon.sybase.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA21738; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:02:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.sybase.com (sybgate) by halon.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4/SybFW4.0) id AA19126; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:03:24 -0700 Received: from serii.sybase.com ([158.159.40.63]) by smtp1.sybase.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/SybH3.5-030896) id AA04156; Tue, 16 Apr 96 13:02:47 PDT Received: by serii.sybase.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-4.1/SybEC3.2) id NAA15615; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:02:47 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:02:47 -0700 From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui) Message-Id: <199604162002.NAA15615@serii.sybase.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: comment on turning X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: My shaykh, Mawlana Shaykh Nazim al-Haqqani, was interviewed by BBC Radio last year in Sheffield. He was asked why the women pray behind the men. To paraphrase part of his reply, "go to your holy books and see if men and women are to pray in the same place. If so, then we can discuss that question." To amplify, if you went to any church or synagogue 100 or probably even 50 years ago you would have found the men on one side and the women on the other. You would have found all members well-dressed and the women covering their head with a scarf or a hat. Mawlana Shaykh Nazim then went on to ask the interviewer the question: "If you say you never saw it in your religion, why did they build priories for nuns and monasteries for monks?" Peace, --mateen siddiqui ______________________________________________________________________ Mateen Siddiqui (415) 943-8639 (9-6 PST) Naqshbandi-Haqqani Foundation URL: http://www.best.com/~informe/haqqani/ [in 9 languages] Europe Mirror URL: http://www.ummah.org.uk/haqqani/ [in 9 languages] email: mateens@sybase.com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 16 19:32:21 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12059; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:51:53 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA24206; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:24:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from wolfe.net by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA24198; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:24:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.157.100.73] (sea-ts4-p19.wolfenet.com [204.157.100.73]) by wolfe.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id NAA14363 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:24:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: gws@gonzo.wolfe.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 12:32:21 -0700 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: gws@wolfe.net (George Steffen) Subject: Re: Jamaluddin Afghani Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalam Alaykum To answer your question requires hearing the dream. If you send me the dream, perhaps I can help a little. Salaams, Habib N. >Dear friends in tariqah, > >Several years ago in a dream: Jamaluddin Afghani handed "the dreamer" >a bottle of ink. > >That dream remains a mystery to the dreamer, and he is puzzled >because he didn't know whether Jamaluddin Afghani a sufi or not. >If he (Jamaluddin) followed any tariqah, which tariqah he belonged? > >To anyone who knows the answer, please reply personally to me: > >maarof@pc.jaring.my > >thank you From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 16 20:49:25 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25701; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 17:56:44 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA26882; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:49:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from WIZARD.COLORADO.EDU by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA26664; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:47:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from granger.colorado.edu by WIZARD.COLORADO.EDU (PMDF #12158) id <01I3M305ZNHC8Y6319@WIZARD.COLORADO.EDU>; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:47 GMT Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:49:25 -0600 From: Mike Granger Subject: RE: comment on turning To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960416204925.3ea7670a@daryl.colorado.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: granger_m@daryl.colorado.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: This is the 2nd timee I post this; the first seems to be stuck in the void. At 06:32 PM 4/15/96 -0400, you wrote: >On Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:34:38 -0600, you wrote: > > > >> First of all, my apology for coming off so strong. I can very well >>sympathize with feelings such as that which brother James expressed in his >>original post. But I am, on this one issue of separation during prayer, >>very clear as to it's correctness. I don't believe there is any so-called >>middle-ground to this. Anyone who has ever prayed in a very crowded Mosque >>understands that >>mixing sexes during prayer would require physical contact between them, and >>such physical contact would, unless one were a perfect Saint, cause a >>certain amount of distraction from the worship. Now, there probably is not >>any passage in the Holy Quran that speaks of this separation during Salat, >>but there is plenty of material in it from which one can derive the >>understanding and necessity of the practice. For me, knowing very well that >>this is what the Perfect One instilled, it is enough. > > Well, that's the question, isn't it? Is this what God >established, or are we mulling over the prejudices of men? Why, >sure, I've prayed in a crowded masjid where I couldn't even >completely place my forehead to the ground because of the >crowding. As I mentioned, there are practical reasons for the >separation, but how does one come to the conclusion that it is >mandated by God, and consequently a sin if the segregation by sex >is not done. For example, I see nothing wrong with mixed praying >in an uncrowded masjid (and I hope all of them are always >crowded!), or mixed praying in dhikir. To my mind, women or >their sexuality, privately expressed, are not a source of sin >(and as a recovered Catholic, I know well the opposite view). > It's my belief that if it was the practice of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), then that is equivalent to being mandated by Allah, especially when we are talking about a purely religious practice. Period. As to whether it is a sin, you seem to think that perhaps I had implied that any individual or group acting to the contrary might be committing a sin. Well, maybe yes, maybe no, only Allah Himself truly decides what is sinning. Sinning has as much to do with intention as with the sinful act, and I did NOT imply that mixed praying was a manifestation of sinful intent. Further, to my mind, women or men and their sexuality privately expressed are not a source of sinning, as long as certain things that we know are haram are not done. However, there is nothing PRIVATE about a Mosque, and any sexuality expressed in a Mosque is flat-out unwelcome and a source of fitna. >>As to "Islamic culture", there are as many Islamic cultures as there are Islamic countries >>in the world, and I suppose some could be considered moribund. I think that >>most of that morbidness is a result of a spiritual stagnancy that has >>settled in over the last century or two, thanks in good part to the >>westernization and modernization of social and moral values. I agree with >>you totally on the necessity of questioning practices, but before one labels >>such an inherent part of Islam "baloney", they should first spend a little >>more time trying to learn what the wisdom in it might be. > > Baloney is not the word I used. And who would argue >that westernization and modernization is not without its >problems? I did not mean to dismiss islamic cultures entirely, >but only in the context of the status of women. It is true, of >course, that it depends on your point of view and that's what we >are debating. For example, I've read posts in soc.religion.islam >from sisters who believe that their rights have been taken away >because men no longer have to support them. That's one way to >look at it, I suppose. On the other hand, women can choose for >themselves (and most don't have the choice these days) whether >they want to work and how. But let's look further at the >so-called islamic values concerning the status of women. > Baloney is the word that was used by the original poster. I must say that to a large extent I agree with you in that the great majority of Islamic coutries, women do not enjoy the rights that they should have, and that the men use supposed Islamic example to justify this suppresion of rights. > We all know of the specific rights given to women by the >Holy Qur'an. At the time that the Book was revealed, these >rights were revolutionary given the Arab mores and culture of the >time (the companions didn't all accept these changes overnight, >and some resisted -- although unquestionably a marvelous man, >'Umar apparently didn't suffer women gladly). Somewhere along >the line, the rights given (and I think the better word is >*reinstated* since the Qur'an brought no new religion, but simply >reasserted the religion of Abraham) to women by the Qur'an became >a ceiling on their social and legal life rather than the floor >that I think it was intended to be. > > > >> Please define what exactly you mean by equal, and further, how it >>would apply to the practice of Islam. There's plenty of claptrap in any >>topic of discussion, as Sayiddina 'Ali once said, "until you have perfected >>yourself, everything you utter is from your ego." > > As I wrote it, I knew that someone would ask me what I >mean by equality :^). Simply put, what I mean is that a woman may >do anything a man can do within the biological and intellectual >limits of the particular woman and man in question. Yes, on >average, men are physically stronger than women, but I've met a >few women where that was definitely not true. My point is that >you cannot generalize about the abilities of women and men and >then conclude that these generalities are God-given differences. > > Of course you can generalize about the GENERAL attributes of men vs. women, and of course they are God-given; isn't God the Creator, and isn't HE the one who endow's us with all of our attributes and abilities??? That's my point, and your point that there are always exceptions to any rules is well taken. The exceptions do not nullify the reality of the generalizations, nor the need to have rules and guidlines on which to base our religion and lives that are based upon generalities. For instance, it is prohibited for a Muslim to drink alcohol. Now, I could make the arguement that, hey, when I get home from work after a hard day at the office, I really want to settle down with an ice cold Moosehead. This would not necessarily make me an alcoholic, and I would make sure that I've regained total sobriety before I perform any Salat or whatever. I promise, Scout's honor, that I won't drink any more than one beer a day. Now, based upon my assertion, and the fact that most of the American male Muslims I know would make the same assertion, does this mean that we really don't need the adhere to the prohibition on drinking? Is this one of those "outdated", or just unnecessary rules? >> So, you understand the reasons for the separation in prayer; good. >>That's what I was attempting to address. Yes, a good portion of the >>male-kind look down upon women-kind, and this is very wrong indeed, and has >>caused too much suffering for those of the fairer sex over the ages. >>However, if one really ponders the whole of human history, one would be >>totally blind if they didn't see that the males of the species have >>performed their role as they were meant to, just as the women have performed >>their own roles as they were meant to. Men, who are endowed by their >>Creator with a different type of mental and physical nature than women, have >>acted out their roles as leaders of men, shapers and craftsmen of nature and >>society, and yes, destroyers of man, whether directed by Allah or their >>egos. Women, on the other hand, have performed their primary roles as >>mothers and nurturers of mankind, and movers of hearts and souls, and >>teachers of many things. This has been true from the dawn of mankind until >>the present. Now, in the 20th century, those who are enlightened would have >>us try to ingore these basic, intrinisic natures. Everyone must be "equal", >>likes cows in a field. > > This illustrates what I call a generality gone awry. This >is a stereotypical assessment of the sexes which serves >(surprise!) the interests of men. These days, a similar argument >is made in the US with respect to race. It is now fashionable in >some circles to refer to the inferiority of some races, and in >fact, big dollars are made by publishing "scientific" studies of >this view, ie. the whole "Bell Curve" controversy. Why is it so >easy to pigeonhole women with the same stereotype, but happily, >no one in his or her right mind would advocate the same view with >respect to race? Your view of the "natural state" of women and >men is not new, and I submit, not valid -- either for yesterday >or for today. > I would submit to you, again, that the exceptions don't nullify what, in my mind, can be generally observed, and certainly shown by the whole of human history, that women and men have some very basic differences in their psycholgical makeup, not just physical. The thing on race is of course ludicrous. Now tell me, here in 1996, in the good 'ol US of A, how in hell are women being "pigeon-holed?" You clearly choose to ignore what is so plain to so many, as maybe a good lawyer should. > I'm a lawyer by trade (and I've noticed no intellectual >or emotional difference between the female and the male judge, or >lawyer -- "fairer" sex indeed!) and your argument reminds me of >the Congressional debate concerning the watershed 1964 Civil >Rights Act (no, I'm not that old, but this stuff is written >down). The southern representatives were at their wits end to >find a way to continue to deny fundamental human rights to some >8% of the American population. Recognizing that the time had come >(overdue, in fact) for simple justice, the opponents of the >legislation decided to add sex as an additional basis of >prohibited discrimination (ie. race, color, creed, and religion). >Their view was that sex was so obviously a legitimate basis for >discrimination, so God-given, so natural, that no one could >possibly vote for legislation that so usurped the natural order >of things and the entire legislation would therefore go down to >defeat. The legislation passed -- religion, culture, and values >notwithstanding. My point, restated, is that men and women are >equal in all respects -- people make the choice for themselves >the roles they want. If a woman believes that it is her right to >be supported, simply because she is a woman, and she finds a man >who agrees with her -- more power to them. > > You can equate the race issue with discrimination against women (of course it exists and is blatant in alot of areas and ways) if you like, but the two things are different, and happen for different reasons. It sounds like you're one of those who have this ingrained conception that perhaps the white males in this country are all of a group mind when it comes to the suppresion of rights of everyone but themselves. Personally, you can't make me swallow that. I don't disagree with the last point you make, except they are NOT equal in certain aspects regarding their basic psychological nature's, as, again, manifested by thousands of years of human history. Again, "equal" to me is a stupid word to use when it comes to recognizing commonalities and differences between the sexes. > > >> Differences in interpretation are certainly an integral part in the >>stuudy and practice of any complicated system, as every man has their own >>unique mind, but I don't think that Islam or it's practice is tied down to >>East, West, or any time. It is, as the Prophet declared, for all mankind, >>for all time. There is interpretation, and then there is refusal to accept. > > Surely you're not saying that disagreement with you or >the school of law, or imam, you follow is not a matter of >interpretation but a refusal to accept the truth? No, you're the one who seems to say that about me. > > I've gotten a bit far afield from the original point of >mixing in a masjid. However, I believe that my comments are on >point with the views expressed in posts on the topic. > > Assalam Alaikum. > > > Wa alaykum Salam. >-- > >Tony > >Anthony Teelucksingh > >"Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you > find a trout in the milk." -- Henry David Thoreau > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Apr 16 21:48:47 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10634; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 18:21:23 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA03761; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 17:48:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from Surfa.SineWave.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA03751; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 17:48:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gale (m-07.IP1.SineWave.com [206.13.48.39]) by Surfa.SineWave.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA09706 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:45:12 -0700 Message-Id: <317415BF.4569@sinewave.com> Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:48:47 -0700 From: Gale X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: al-Fakhr al-Razi (corrected) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Thank you Sonia for the information on al-Fakhr al-Razi, and I recognize I was wrong to have titled him a Sufi. Nevertheless, as your source cites: > he was among the foremost figures of his time... and preserved the > religion of Ahl as-Sunna from the deviations of the ... Shiites ... > and other aberrant sects Whoa!! If true, I don't feel I want to know anything more about him. Anyway, thanks for the correction. Blessings, Nur Jemal Gale From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 17 00:33:51 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12163; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 21:10:13 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA14226; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 19:37:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA14222; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 19:36:59 -0400 (EDT) From: GHADDAD@ccmail.sunysb.edu Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17597; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 19:33:58 -0400 Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by ccmail.sunysb.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #8051) id <01I3MD0FXEIO9I5AD6@ccmail.sunysb.edu> for tariqas@world.std.com; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 19:33:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 19:33:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Contact which nullifies ablution To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: <01I3MD0FXIAA9I5AD6@ccmail.sunysb.edu> X-Vms-To: in%"tariqas@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: State University of New York at Stony Brook Stony Brook, NY G. Fouad Haddad 16-Apr-1996 07:28pm EDT FROM: GHADDAD TO: Remote Addressee ( _tariqas@world.std.com ) Subject: Contact which nullifies ablution as-salamu alaykum, The following is in response to the request to post evidence concerning the nullification of the minor ritual purification (wudu') in the case of contact with a person of the opposite sex according to the four Sunni schools (madhhab, pl. madhahib) of law in Islam, which are: Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi`i, and Hanbali. Since wudu' is required for salat (prayer), reading the Qur'an, tawaf (circumambulation of theKa`ba), and is generally recommended at all times, it is considered "necessary knowledge," for Muslims who have reached the age of reason, to know how to perform it (along with prayer) and what nullifies it. Generally speaking, Hanafis are found in Turkey, Central Asia, and the Indian subcontinent, Malikis in Africa, Shafi`is in the Middle and Far East, and Hanbalis in the Arabian peninsula. It is from an exchange that took place a few months ago on another list. The abbreviation (ra) stands for "radiallahu `anhu/`anha" which means: May God be well pleased with him/her. >An example: > >Regarding the verse in the Quran: > >...or you touched women (laamastum) and cannot find water > then make tayammum [dry ablution] from clean earth. [4:43] > >This verse occurs in the context of the factors that >nullify the wudhoo... > >Ash-Shaafi'ee and most of his students ruled that >Lams in this verse means the touch of the hand or >bodily contact. Thus, if a man accidentally touches >a woman or vice versa, skin on skin, then both >lose their wudhoo. This is the position of: Ibn Mas`ud, Ibn `Umar, al-Shu`bi, al- Nakh`i, al-Zuhri, al-Awza`i, and al-Shafi`i [all early jurists or Companions of the Prophet] who reported that Ibn `Umar [the Companion-jurist] said: "Whoever kisses or touches his wife [i.e. let alone others] with his hand must renew his wudu'." It is authentic and related in numerous places including Malik's Muwatta'. al-Shafi`i said: "And something similar to it has reached us from Ibn Mas`ud" [another Companion-jurist]. They all read the above verse exactly as it came, without interpreting "touch" to mean other than "touch," namely "intercourse" [the latter being the position of the Hanafi school]. >In the Maaliki madhdhab the ruling is also that >by lams the touching of the hand is intended. >However their stipulation is that if the touch >was pleasurable only then is the wudhoo nullified. Untrue. Their stipulation is: Wudu' is nullified if touch was intended whether it was pleasurable or not, and it is nullified if it was pleasurable even if it was not intended, and all this applies even if the skins don't actually touch, for example through clothing. >Abu Haneefah ruled that lams in this verse means >sexual intercourse and therefore merely touching her did not nullify the wudhoo regardless of whethe >r it was pleasurable or not. The Hanafi school differs with the other three schools on this. [They hold that contact, although forbidden, does not nullify ablution.] (As for the Hanbalis they are more strict than the Shafi`is and Malikis put together since they include even the mother and sister among the contacts which nullify a man's wudu'.) >This position [contact does not nullify ablution] is based >on the hadeeth of Aaishah (ra) in which the Messenger >while he was praying touched her foot in order to move >it away from the place of prostration during prayer and The position of those who require wudu' in case of skin touching skin is that it is not evident that this was the case in the above hadith, as it is possible that there was something between them. >also upon the hadeeth reported by Urwah (ra) that >the Messenger kissed some ofhis wives then left >for prayer without performing wudhoo. This hadith is held as "ghayr thabit" (not established). Tirmidhi said: "Its isnad is not sound in any way whatsoever, and I heard Muhammad ibn Isma`il (al-Bukhari) say this hadith is da`if." Ibn al-Qattan said: "It is close to nothing... and this `Urwa is not `Urwa ibn al-Zubayr, `A'isha's nephew, but an unknown shaykh." Blessings and Peace on the Prophet, his Family, and his Companions. Naqshbandi-Haqqani Foundation of Ahl al-Sunna wal-Jama`a URL: http://www.best.com/~informe/haqqani/ [in 9 languages] Europe Mirror URL:http://www.ummahorg.uk/haqqani/ email: mateens@sybase.com, ghaddad@ccmail.sunysb.edu From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 17 01:49:41 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25823; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 22:18:14 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id VAA27687; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 21:51:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id VAA27682; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 21:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from homer28.u.washington.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05783; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 21:49:49 -0400 Received: from localhost by homer28.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW96.04/UW-NDC Revision: 2.33 ) id AA129227; Tue, 16 Apr 96 18:49:41 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 18:49:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Lilyan Ila To: tariqasnet Subject: Muslim Women in History (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: asalaam-u-aleikum Here are two posts from our resident Islamic Women's Studies scholar, Mohja Kahf. I am forwarding them in hopes of refuting the fallacy that only men have historically been 'leaders & shapers of society'. If it appears to be so, it is surely because 'history' has and continues to be selectively presented. Dr. Kahf in her ongoing research Insha'allah will uncover and translate more of these buried treasures. 1) The source for the previous posting under this title was Al-Islaba fi Asma al-Sahaba by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani (ca. 15th century c.e.) Azdah bint al-Harith bin Kaldah. The people of Maisan (a valley of many small towns between Basra and Wasit in Iraq) had collected an army against the Muslims. Mughirah bin Shu'bah took the Muslim army and went out to wait for them at Al-Murghab (a river) but the enemy did not appear right away. Azdah, who was with the women back at the Muslim base camp, said "Our men are busy in combat with the enemy and I do not feel secure that the enemy might not turn back upon us, and we do not have anyone here to prevent them. And I also fear that the enemy may be too many for the Muslims and that they may defeat them. If we go out, we can be secure from what we fear, and the pagans will think that we are reinforcements coming in aid of the Muslims, and this will break them." So she strategized. The women responded to what she planned. She made a banner out of hear khimar (headscarf) and all the women made banners out of their khimars and marched, with her in the lead, calling out poetry for the victory of Islam. They reached the battlegrounds and the pagans were battling the Muslims. When the pagans saw the banners, they believed the Muslims were being reinforced with troops, so they retreated, and the Muslims pursued them. And the Muslims won that region. Translated and abridged from Umar Kahhala, A'lam al Nisa, vol. 1. ***************************************************************** The Companion* Al-Shifaa bint Abduallah al Qurashiyah al Adawiyah was one of the wise women of her time. Literate in an illiterate age, she was skilled in medicine, involved in public administration, and had a strong presence in early Muslim history. Al-Shifaa embraced Islam before the Hijra, and was one of the earliest to migrate from Makkah to Madinah. She took the Pledge or Bay'ah to the Messenger (pbuh), declaring loyalty to him before witnesses when it was still a dangerous thing to do. Her real name may have been Laila. Al Shifaa is a title derived from her profession as a medicine woman; it means "healing." She used to conduct preventative treatments against antbite before the advent of Islam. After Hijrah, she approached the Prophet, and said "Oh Messenger of Allah, I used to do preventative medicine for antbites during Jahilia, and I want to demonstrate it for you." He said, "Demonstrate it." Al Shifaa said "So I demonstrated it for him, and he said '[continue to] do this, and teach it to Hafsah [a wife of the Prophet].' In another version he said "Why dont you teach this one [indicating Hafsah] the preventative medicine against antbites, just as you taught her how to write?" She apparently taught Hafsah, and probably others, to write, at the personal request of the Prophet. The Messenger (pbuh) used to visit her in her own home so frequently that she set aside a mat and a cover, or izar, for his use when he took his siesta there. She kept these momentos until her death and passed them on to her children. The Messenger (pbuh) gave her title to a house in the Hakakin area of Madinah. His value for her company influenced the caliphs. As Caliph, Umar used to defer to her opinion. Umar's respect for Al Shifaa's competence, character, and judgement led him to appoint her as an officer, or wali, in the administration of the marketplace. This makes her possibly the first Muslim woman to hold an official position in public administration. Al Shifaa narrates a good number of hadiths. Many Companions narrate hadiths on her authority, including Hafsah. With her forceful character, influential counsel, and multiple professional skills, Al Shifaa bint Abdullah must have been a major figure in early Muslim society, probably a household name. Mohja Kahf Fayetteville, Arkansas - U.S. * Again, a Companion is anyone who was adult and Muslim during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad, peace and prayers be upon him and his family. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 17 02:28:42 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01779; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 22:30:41 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA01905; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 22:30:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00938; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 22:28:48 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA01687; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 22:28:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 22:28:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199604170228.WAA01687@europe.std.com> X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [ZIAulHUQ@aol.com] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Tue Apr 16 22:28:40 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA01683; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 22:28:40 -0400 (EDT) From: ZIAulHUQ@aol.com Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29778; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 22:26:18 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA22915 for Tariqas@world.std.com.; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 22:26:17 -0400 Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 22:26:17 -0400 Message-Id: <960416222547_515483172@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: Tariqas@world.std.com Subject: SHAIKH SERIF AL-RIFAI ZIKR IN NYC HU, Shaikh Serif of the Rifai-Marufi Order of Istanbul will be in NYC and will conduct Zikrs at 7:30 PM on May 5th, May 19th and May 26th to which all are welcome at " Fazil's Dance Studio" on the 3rd. floor at 743 8th Avenue ( between 46th and 47th streets). Now residing in North Carolina Shaikh Serif is the head of the Rifai-Marufi Order of America, and can be reached at: M. SERIF CATALKAYA RIFAI MARUFI ORDER OF AMERICA P.O. Box 296 CARRBORO, NC 27510 919-933-0772 For more information on the Zikrs in NYC call 212-265-4345 or the studio at 212-541-4455, or Email at this address. Also, if you wish, join Serif Baba and dervishes at the mehzar of Hz. Baba Bawa in Philadelphia on May 12th after noon prayers. HU From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 17 02:45:46 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19527; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:11:05 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA03705; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 22:46:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA03643; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 22:45:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA04327; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 12:45:47 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 12:45:46 +1000 (EST) From: Dien Alfred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: al-Fakhr al-Razi (corrected) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Sonia, Assalamu alaikum, Thanks for the (corrected) post on Fakhr ad-Din Razi. However, it is still not clear to me from this whether he was a Sufi or not. Does anyone know for sure? (Or maybe I missed something somewhere.) Wassalam, Farid ud-Dien Rice From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 17 03:37:01 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16003; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 00:02:49 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA09351; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:40:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA09347; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:40:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04174; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:37:01 -0400 Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:37:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: AGE OF LIGHT - Talk by Shaykh Taner Ansari (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 10:14:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Lilyan Ila To: Steve H Rose Subject: AGE OF LIGHT - Talk by Shaykh Taner Ansari (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 12 Apr 1996 13:12:45 GMT From: Dien Alfred Rice Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam Subject: AGE OF LIGHT - Talk by Shaykh Taner Ansari Assalamu alaikum, Recently someone posted something about the hadith which says that a sign of the last days is that the sun will rise from the west. One interpretation of this, by Shaykh Taner Ansari of the Qadiri-Rifa'i tariqa, is that this means that Islam will rise in the west, such as in North America. Shaykh Taner Ansari mentions this in the talk below - however, in my opinion, the Shaykh's whole talk is excellent, so I asked permission to post the whole thing. I hope people gain at least as much benefit from reading this talk as I have. For more information (and more talks by Shaykh Taner Ansari), you can read their web page. The Qadiri-Rifa'i Sufi order's web page address is: http://www.ansaripub.com/ (I am not affiliated with the Qadiri Rifa'i tariqa.) Wassalam, Farid ud-Dien Rice ============================================================================== Posted by permission of Qadiri Rifa'i tariqa and Shaykh Taner Ansari Tarsusi er Rifa'i el Qadiri. AGE OF LIGHT TALK GIVEN BY SHAYKH TANER ANSARI ________________________________________________________________________ All praise belongs to Allah, and to no one else; He has no partners, everything belongs to Him, all power belongs to Him and He has no partner sharing His power. He is all-merciful and graceful so that He shares His knowledge and He sent the Qur'an as a light and Muhammed, peace be upon him, as a prophet to explain the Qur'an to us. The specialty of human being, what is the peculiarity, what is the characteristic of human being? Why is human being different from the others, other creations. There are several reasons but one aspect of human being is important, that is "`Aql", which means your sensible judgment, your brain in other words, your capacity to know, to know what is right and what is wrong. In order to know what's right and what's wrong you have to see, and in order to see you need light. So one of the things that's very important, the most important thing, is light. "Allah is the light of the heavens and earth." Allah says in 'Surat an-Nur' Chapter 29 in Qur'an Kerim. Light is very important because without light you don't see, when you don't see you cannot make a judgment - which way you are going, which way is right and which way is wrong. INNER AND OUTER LIGHT Light has of course two meanings, one is in the outer, the other is in the inner. And so we mean by light both of these. Now Al-hamdu-lillah we went to Turkey and around the world and saw all the things. When you get out of the country it's just like when you are getting out of yourself. Then you can look back at yourself and you see yourself, you can compare yourself. That way you know where you stand, what's happening, because of Einstein's theory of relativity, :-) so you have a relation to see where you're at. So we went Turkey and talked to a lot of people, or a lot of people talked to us and then we found out, my humble opinion is that, conclusion is that, people are looking for light. And light is very... at this time of the total earth age it is hard to find. Some people got a little bit of light, some people got a little bit dim. Here I sat in a barber chair and this guy comes, he doesn't know me, I don't know him, he starts asking me questions, I am trying not to be known, I am trying.. you know... . So he asks me a question, like Turkish word 'TanRa', in other words, the Turkish word for God. Is it okay to use it or is it okay not to use it? Some 'hojas', some imams say that it is a sin, you shouldn't use that. So I said "Well it depends on what you mean, what do you mean by when you say 'tanRa' if you mean Allah, then that's okay. But sometimes other people say Allah, use the word Allah, but they mean money, then there's no okay. Even if you use the word Allah, if you don't mean the power that rules the universe, except you mean the power that rules the economic situation here, then that's not okay. So he asked me another one. So I answered another question. And he said "Who are you?" And I said "Oh man, now don't get into that, I just want to have a haircut!" REMEMBERING THE TRUE GOAL From here and there and some other places people see me on the street and they come over, they ask, and I don't know what's happening, so I saw that in Turkey for example, there is a movement for Islam again. But how? Is it conscious? What's happening? Do you know what you want? Do you know where to go? What is the goal? The goal is not known. What is the goal? They think the goal is to go to paradise. Now, the goal, which I've been telling you for the last three years, is Allah and Allah and Allah and Allah, there is no other goal. The goal is not paradise, the goal is not the prophet, the goal is not the shaykh, the goal is not the 'tariqa', the goal is not praying, the goal is not fasting, the goal is not this and that. The goal is only Allah. The rest are tools to go to Allah. WHAT IS LOVE? So the world is hungry. People's souls are hungry. You know they say "soul food". Well the "soul food" is, Allah says in Qur'an Kerim "Hearts find peace only by the remembrance of Allah." That's all, nothing else. So Zikr is the soul food. So like your outer body needs nourishment, your inner body also needs nourishment. They want to eat, they are hungry, they want to hear about Allah. And the most important thing about Allah is love. And we use this word so freely and so much that it has lost it's value. Everybody says love, love, love, love, love, but when it comes to the test, well, what is love? So, al-Hamdulillah, we have a good group here. The sun will shine in the west before the world is over. This is a hard decision. At first I took it literally, which it may also be literally, but at the same time, the sun is light, so this is the last 'morikose', the last continent that Allah's light is going to shine, and I hate to say this, but you're it. You guys are the ones who are going to make it shine. If Allah is willing and Insha`llah, if Allah helps us to do. So take advantage of this and take the path as Allah says in Qur'an Kerim to (?) Allah, and try to love Allah. Allah deserves to be loved. Allah loves His lovers. Through all the people, there are 5 billion people in the world, they all want from Allah. Give me, give me, give me, give me this, give me that, give me this, give me that, do this for me, do that for me, do this, na na na, and they're all fighting and this and that. . But there are very few, very, very few sincere slaves of Allah who want to serve Allah just because he is Allah. And they want to love Allah just because he's Allah. Expecting nothing in return. You have to ask yourself if Allah put you into hell would you still love Him and worship Him? Then you're a Sufi. What we want to do here is raise these people for Allah. That's it. We make Zikr here, we want to make love to Allah. And its very precious. Allah's love is very precious. That is the chemistry that holds the universe together. And everything in the universe is fighting for this love. Who is going to be closer to Allah? And Allah has granted this to Muhammed, peace be upon him, he is the lover of Allah and we are his followers and we are his particles. We are particles of the prophet, peace be upon him, he is our motherland, he is our homeland. So we have this opportunity. Everything depends on you. How much are you willing to give up? How much are you willing to take on? Nothing is wasted. Everything you do can be a gain. Everything depends on one little thing in your brain - one little switch. Switch this way, to surrender, you're a winner. You switch into your nafs (self), you are a loser. Then you have to go another round. WHERE TRUE POWER LIES Switch to Allah. Switch to think to Allah, and Allah will make you a winner. Nobody has any power. You have to work with Allah to get you anyplace. That way you have to surrender. That's why Islam means surrender. Unless you surrender then you can do nothing. Why? Because Allah has all the power and here you are. You are trying to do something. With whose power are you trying to do something? Do you have power against Allah? Then you always fail because you don't have this power! You just think you do. Allah has been letting you do a couple things to make you think that you have this. And then at the end - you fall face down and what do you find out? You find out that you are nothing. Everything is in this - "die before you die" means surrender. "Fana fillah" means surrender. You get out of the way, let Allah get in and present Himself. Allah said to the angels "I'm going to create a 'khalifah' on Earth." What does He mean? You have to contemplate on these things. You just don't read and pass. You have to think about what was He talking about. Get to the reality of these things. He's going to create a 'khalifah' on Earth. What is 'khalifah'? His representative, His voice on Earth. Who are these people, who is this? He's talking about you. Whether you want it or not, you are representing God on Earth. When you don't know, you think you're representing yourself. Everything you got is from Allah and it's going back to Allah. If it is not so, hold onto it and don't let go. If it is yours, hold onto it, so it won't go. What happened to yesterday? Can you bring it back? Every second your cells are changing, hold it, don't let it change, if it is yours. There's a story about Al-Hallaj, when they put him into a jail and then the guards came to take him out, he wasn't there. The next day they went, he is there. They asked "Where were you, we came and looked....?" He said "Allah was with me." Okay. The next day he is not there again. When he is back again, they asked "Where were you?" He said "I was with Allah." You see, in both cases he is not there. Do you get it? When Allah is with him, he is not there. When he is with Allah, still he is not there. So finally they hanged him, you know. Because he said 'Ana al Haqq' which means "I am God" . And the fundamentalists strung him up, of course with Allah's permission. So that's the way it's supposed to be. When Allah is there, you aren't there. When you are there, Allah is not there. So get out of the way. LOVE OF ALLAH My final words are today: Love - go for the Love, of Allah, but in order to achieve this love of Allah you have to be in a path and attain good 'adab' so that Allah will love you. Unless Allah loves you, you cannot love Allah. So it's not that easy to love. How do you love? Just by saying "I want to love you, you can't. Allah has to help you. You have to attain the traits, the manners, and characteristics of our prophet, peace be upon him, that's what Allah said. That's an example for you. You have to be like him. - how he was. Then Allah will love you and then you can love Allah. And that is the Great Victory. Otherwise the whole world can be yours, and it means nothing. Everything is going to go. The universe is going to go. You can own the whole universe, what's going to happen? It's going to end. There is no kingdom for you. You cannot be king or queen. Allah is 'Malik' and Allah is the king, that's it. You can only see and be if you get rid of yourself so you can also enjoy this with Allah. Love Allah, and be with Him. So, like I said, good adab is the key for this love. Salaam Alaikum _________________________________________________________________ Qadiri Rifa'i Tariqa P.O. Box 2511 Napa, CA 94558 USA (v) 707-255-3588 (f) 707-255-2587 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 17 04:00:51 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24101; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 00:25:43 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA12407; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 00:06:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA12396; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 00:06:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15283; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 00:00:51 -0400 Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 00:00:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: comment on turning (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 17:31:30 -0400 (EDT) From:tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [Jim Norton ] >From habib@world.std.com Mon Apr 15 17:31:27 1996 Return-Path: Received: from mhub2.tc.umn.edu by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA22179; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 17:31:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by mhub2.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 15 Apr 96 16:31:23 -0500 Received: from dialup-2-91.gw.umn.edu by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 15 Apr 96 16:31:20 -0500 Message-ID: <3172BFE1.4AFE@ast1.spa.umn.edu> Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 16:30:09 -0500 From: Jim Norton Organization: Shamsuddin Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@europe.std.com Subject: Re: comment on turning References: <960415164040_375949591@emout04.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit JHulvey@aol.com wrote: > > > If anyone would like the story I will be happy to post it. > > Sincerely, > > Julie Hulvey > > I would like to read the story. Grace & Peace, Shamsuddin Jim Norton norton@ast1.spa.umn.edu From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 17 03:59:51 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06927; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 00:46:17 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA12106; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 00:05:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA12089; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 00:04:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14868; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:59:52 -0400 Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:59:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Barzakh Foundation and Sufi Healing (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 04:05:09 +0700 From: BARZAKH FOUNDATION To: habib@world.std.com Subject: Barzakh Foundation and Sufi Healing Assalamu'alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakattu, Dear Sir/Madam, We would like to introduce to our brothers and sisters all over the world about our Sufi organization, Barzakh Foundation, which resides in Jakarta, Indonesia. In our attempt to seek His pleasure and to give service to humanity, we have opened a worldwide service to cure HIV/AIDS patients using Sufi Healing method. The service is FREE, since we are a non-profit organization. The Sufi Healing is performed by our Sufi Master, Muhammad Zuhri. His profile can be found at this Web-site address : http://www.idola.net.id/inyp/life/barzakh/muhzuh-e.htm. We wish to build further relationship with other Sufi and Islamic organizations all over the world. We would also be thankful for any help toward our service and to give connection to HIV/AIDS patients who want to join. We also send within this letter complete information about our service in HIV/AIDS treatment using Sufi Healing Method. Thank you for your attention. May Allah give peace and love to all of you. Wassalamu'alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakattu, CANDRA WISNUARKA President of Barzakh Foundation BARZAKH FOUNDATION Wijaya Grand Centre C-3, 3rd Floor Jalan Wijaya 2, Kebayoran Baru Jakarta INDONESIA 12160 Phone - Fax : (62-21)-720-5622 E-mail : barzakh@idola.net.id Web-site : http://www.idola.net.id/inyp/life/barzakh/barzakhe.htm ----------------------------------------------------------- The Meaning of BARZAKH ----------------------------------------------------------- Barzakh is an Arabic word which means an isthmus or a partition. The word is mentioned in The Holy Quran (Al Furqan verse 53), which refers to an isthmus, a narrow piece of land between two oceans. According to a Sufi the two oceans symbolize the ocean of God's Absoluteness and the ocean of Nature's Relativity, while the isthmus symbolizes a Perfect Moslem. Following this concept, a Perfect Moslem is the one who has the awareness of God's Absoluteness and Nature's Relativity in his heart, so that along with his physical activity and creativity, his spiritual form never stops prostating to God to seek His Love only. The meeting of the two oceans also represented in the story of Moses' encounter with Khidr in The Holy Quran (Al Kahfi verses 60-82). Moses symbolizes the Nature's Relativity, while Khidr symbolizes God's Absoluteness. Given the name Barzakh, the Foundation hopes that it will always submit itself to God in its strugle to serve the community. ------------------------------------------------------------ HIV/AIDS TREATMENT WITH SUFI HEALING METHOD ------------------------------------------------------------ BACKGROUND The Foundation regards HIV/AIDS disease as a serious threat to humanity. A great empathy and attention are needed to prevent further spreading and to cure the already infected patients using every way which is acceptable by human laws and morality or religion. The Foundation has committed itself to give treatment to HIV/AIDS patients using Sufi Healing method, which has been practiced for the last 20 years by its counselor, Muhammad Zuhri (a Sufi Master from Indonesia), to cure many people with cancer, mental illness, leukemia, impotency, paralysis, etc. The Foundation accepts help from every individual and organization who are dealing with HIV/AIDS by spreading information about our service. ABOUT SUFI HEALING The Sufis are high rank spiritual teachers within Islam, whose one of their responsibility is to maintain and transmit the hidden, deeper knowledge contained in the Holy Qur'an. For the Sufis, the supreme object of life is to serve and obey God, to emulate His divine attributes, and thereby to earn His pleasure. Among the service to humanity, that which the Sufis consider superior to all others is the healing of the sick. Their method is called the Sufi Healing. There are four kind of healing methods known to us: 1. modern 2. traditional (acupuncture, herb remedies, etc.) 3. spiritism (yoga, magnetism, hypnotism, breath exercise, etc.) 4. Divine spiritual power Sufi healing method is an Islamic healing method using Divine spiritual power practiced exclusively by the Sufis for centuries. The basic principle in Sufi Healing is that the True Healer is God Himself, the Sufis only act as mediators. The physical healing methods of the Sufis derive first from the Holy Qur'an and second from the traditions and actions of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). The Sufis use four things in their treatment of diseases: prayers, medicine, by practicing something, or using specific things. Prayers in Islam is known as salat, a specific practice combining body movements and reciting of Qur'anic verses and supplications, which must be performed five times a day. While the true purpose of salat and fasting are to reach God's proximity, it can also give spiritual nourishment and harmonize the physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual life, if done properly. Traditional medicine or therapy (water therapy, aromatherapy, etc.) sometimes also used by the Sufis depending on the condition of the patient. Zikr, simply translated as Divine remembrance, is also practiced as a method to cure mental or physical illness. It is performed by repeating holy verses or God's attributes either individually or in a group, usually under supervision of a Sufi teacher. The Sufis also combine the using of God's attributes and holy verses with prayer in a specific and complex method. The formulations may be written on a paper, bone, or leather, which is called wifq. Those things are to be put it in a glass of water to be taken by the patient or buried in the ground, or carried around by the patient. The formulations can also be spoken aloud or in heart, or using many other ways. This can be applied not only to cure mental or physical illness, but also to solve family, financial, or social problem. This last method uses power from God's angels for constructive purposes only, and it is not the same with voodoo, black magic, or witchcraft which use the power from jinn or evil spirits which can be used for destructive purposes. Those who are interested to know more about Sufi Healing, or Sufism, are suggested to read this book: Shaykh Hakim Moinuddin Chishti. THE BOOK OF SUFI HEALING. New York: Inner Traditions International, Ltd., 1985. or go to our Web-site: Sufi Healing for HIV/AIDS Treatment at: http://www.idola.net.id/inyp/life/barzakh/aidsbrze.htm THE HIV/AIDS TREATMENT To cure the HIV/AIDS patients, the Foundation's Sufi Master practiced two ways : the first is through body contact (for those who could come to us) and the second is by simple self meditation (for far away patients) at a specific hour and day, at the same time the Sufi Master will also perform prayers. In the prayer, the Sufi Master will mention the patient's name and his/her mother's name. As a complimentary, patients will also be given wifq (piece of paper containing holy verses) which must be carried along with the patient or to be put inside a glass of drinking water. Complete instructions will be sent along with the wifq. The treatment does not use any traditional herb or medicine or any chemical substances, so it will not yield side effects. We accept patients from every country regardless of their sex, race or religion. GENERAL AGREEMENT Persons with HIV or AIDS who want to join our service should accept terms of agreement listed below: 1. The patient must already have been tested HIV+. 2. The Foundation give treatment only to cure the HIV/AIDS disease. 3. The patient should follow every procedure with discipline. 4. The patient should give his/her full name, his/her mother's name, his/her mail address to the Foundation using E-mail or fax, and the Foundation will guard its secrecy. 5. The patient should wait for its turn to have the treatment. We will respond your request by sending a treatment schedule. 6. The Foundation will send the wifq and the instruction kit via airmail for patients who are not able to come to Jakarta. For those who want to come directly to us should arrange an appointment at least one month in advance (please use the E-mail or fax). 7. The Foundation will give all its best to serve every patient. 8. During the treatment, the patient should send medical analysis report to the Foundation regularly. 9. While undergoing the treatment, the patient must NOT practice other spiritual-based treatment or therapy (yoga ,etc.) at the same time. While medicine or vitamins as prescribed by the doctor are suggested to be taken. 10.The patient should avoid every activity with HIV risk (e.g. sex intercourse with HIV potential persons) during and after the treatment. 11.In order to speed up the healing process, all patients are advised to maximize all religious activities (pray to God, leave all bad behaviors, etc.) according to his or her own belief. 12.The service is FREE. The Foundation will not charge anything to the patients. 13.The effective time of the treatment is 3 (three) months, the Foundation will stop the treatment if the patient is not cured after 6(six) months. We must remember that this treatment is using prayers and the result is up to God. 14.The Foundation does not give any guarantee of this service, and thus are free from every charge from the patients, their families and/or communities. For further information, please contact us at : BARZAKH FOUNDATION Wijaya Grand Centre C-3, 3rd Floor Jalan Wijaya 2, Kebayoran Baru Jakarta INDONESIA 12160 Phone - Fax : (62-21)-720-5622 E-mail : barzakh@idola.net.id Web-site : http://www.idola.net.id/inyp/life/barzakh/barzakhe.htm BARZAKH FOUNDATION Wijaya Grand Centre C-3 Jl. Wijaya 2 Kebayoran Baru Jakarta INDONESIA 12160 Telp-Fax (62-21)-720-5622 E-mail : barzakh@idola.net.id http://www.idola.net.id/inyp/life/barzakh/barzakhe.htm From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 17 06:03:57 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02047; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 02:05:57 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id CAA23224; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 02:05:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00913; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 02:04:05 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id CAA22996; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 02:03:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 02:03:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199604170603.CAA22996@europe.std.com> X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from ["Habit guest email acct." ] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Wed Apr 17 02:03:56 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id CAA22990; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 02:03:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00266; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 02:01:48 -0400 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with UUCP id LAA16006; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 11:32:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from guest@localhost) by frank.habit.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id LAA01218; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 11:31:50 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 11:31:50 -0700 From: "Habit guest email acct." Subject: address To: wh@seas.upenn.edu, tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Someone asked about how to reach Daniel Muzaffer Donnell here yesterday. I saw him at the IAS Sufi Symposium in San Francisco two weeks ago. He said he had given up all his titles months ago, and he is still on the Sufi path, and he gave up e-mail in December, and he is working on his books about the Mevlevi and Chishti Sufis. He said non-profit organizations bore him to death, and he is really interested in "spiritual transformation through tariqa and silsila". I never thought about this but he would not say anything more. It was very late at night, and he was about to go out the hotel door with a big bag of food for the homeless in the hotel neighborhood. The hotel was near a kind of a rough area. He gave me his address, but he would not give me his telephone number, Daniel Muzaffer Donnell at Post Office Box 1721, Portland, Oregon, 97207. He sang and played music for a few minutes for other people in two time slots at the Symposium, and I did not know it, but he is also a gifted musician. I check these groups every so often at a guest site, and I was kinda amazed at the drop in content lately, even after the symposium. Thanks. Latifa From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 17 13:57:42 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05513; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 09:36:25 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA13664; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 08:59:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA13658; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 08:59:40 -0400 (EDT) From: GHADDAD@ccmail.sunysb.edu Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14488; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 08:57:49 -0400 Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by ccmail.sunysb.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #8051) id <01I3N532T9UO9I5AF9@ccmail.sunysb.edu> for tariqas@world.std.com; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 08:57:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 08:57:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: [1] Interview with Shaykh Nazim To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: <01I3N532TEKI9I5AF9@ccmail.sunysb.edu> X-Vms-To: in%"tariqas@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: State University of New York at Stony Brook Stony Brook, NY G. Fouad Haddad 17-Apr-1996 08:51am EDT FROM: GHADDAD TO: Remote Addressee ( _tariqas@world.std.com ) Subject: [1] Interview with Shaykh Nazim INTERVIEW WITH SHAYKH NAZIM AL-HAQQANI Grandshaykh of the Tariqa Naqshbandiyya May God sanctify his secret This interview took place with a Swedish reporter in Lefke, Cyprus, in August 1988. Bismillah al-Rahman al-Rahim. Q. First I thought you were a descendant of Mevlana Rumi. Shaykh Nazim: The grandfather from my mother's side was Mevlevi. The grandfather from my father's side was Qadiri. I am Naqshibandi. I am taking from the Mevlevis and from the Qadiris and I am also Naqshibandi. But I am only practising the Naqshiband-Way. Q. How is your succession? When you die, who will succeed you? Shaykh Nazim: There is Shaykh Adnan from Lebanon and Shaykh Hisham, my son-in-law [based in California], the brother of Shaykh Adnan Kabbani. They are the successors. Q. How do you appoint your successors? Shaykh Nazim: I don't appoint them myself, but our Grandshaykh, by the order of the Prophet, appointed me to be successor after him and after me Shaykh Adnan and after Shaykh Adnan Shaykh Hisham. Q. So it is a known who will follow you? Shaykh Nazim: Yes, they know. Q. How do they know? Shaykh Nazim: Our Grandshaykh Abdullah Daghistani makes his will according to the Prophet's order. The Prophet appoints as it is written on the Preserved Tablet. Q. So the Prophets appoint them? Shaykh Nazim: Yes. Q. Muhammad appoints them? Shaykh Nazim: Yes, Muhammad (Peace be upon him) appoints them. Q. And he gives it in the hearts of the Shaykhs who will follow you, so that they know about their succession. Shaykh Nazim: The Prophet knows and orders. Q. Who is the Grandshaykh? Shaykh Nazim: Our Grandshaykh is Shaykh Abdullah Daghistani [1891-1973]. ... Q. When the Grandshaykh was still alive, did you know that you would be his successor? Shaykh Nazim: Yes, I knew. Q. And you re the 40th , going back to Muhammad? Shaykh Nazim: Yes. Q. How should I call your movement, your tariqat in English? Shaykh Nazim: The Way of Naqshibandi, the most distinguished Naqshibandi Order. Q. You see, this article will be read mostly by English people, and they will then ask: "What is Naqshibandi?" Shaykh Nazim: Yes, they may ask. Q. And now I ask you. Shaykh Nazim: You are one of the questioners! Q. Yes. What does the Naqshibandi Order stand for? What is the aim? Shaykh Nazim: Before you ask what the aim of the Naqshibandi Order is, you must ask about the aim of religions. Q. Are you asking me now? Shaykh Nazim: I am asking you to ask this before you ask about the Naqshibandis. Religions are realities in which mankind must believe. It is the oldest foundation in the life of mankind. When mankind came into existence, so did religion. Man came, belief came and heavenly orders came. Why did religions come and why have we been ordered to believe in something? Q. I think you cannot do otherwise, it is born into you. Shaykh Nazim: Yes, the seeds of belief have been planted into the hearts of everyone by birth. Q. What about people who are totally materialistic? Shaykh Nazim: realistic? Q. Materialistic, only thinking about facts. Shaykh Nazim: They are forcing themselves. It is against nature, because the nature of man was created for him to believe in his Creator. Materialistic people force themselves not to believe. Q. So you think that they are forcing themselves? Shaykh Nazim: Yes, because it is against nature. Finally they will say: "Oh, my God! Oh, my God!" when they are dying. Q. I cannot judge, it is possible, of course. Shaykh Nazim: Nowadays, if a person doesn't feel disturbed in herself, in himself, they don't feel a need to call for God. But when heavy burdens fall on them, then they feel helpless and then they turn to God: "Help!" Then they ask help from the unseen, because the seen ones cannot help. So they must call the unseen: "O, my Lord! Oh, my God!" Q. Do you think that happens to everybody? Does it happen to every materialist? Shaykh Nazim: I have witnessed so many people. At the end of their lives these people call us to look after them. I have seen so many people. When they are helpless and hopeless they cry and say: "Oh, my Lord! Oh, Allah!" I heard about some famous materialistic devils that they were calling to the Lord at the end of their lives. Because that is something which is born into man. Man was a believer until 14 or 15 years of age during childhood. Afterwards he forces himself to be materialistic. Why? Every small one is alright and believes. Why is it that after the age of maturity they change? Because they are forcing themselves, forcing their nature. Q. What do you think about people who are really bad, like the commanders of the Concentration Camps, or other people like that, who did bad just for the sake of doing bad? Do you think that at the end of their lives they would also cry to God, for Allah? Shaykh Nazim: Those bad people must repent at the end of their lives. Everybody repents. If he did good deeds he will repent and say: "Why didn't I do more?" And the bad ones will also repent and say: "Why did we do these worst of things?" Both sides will repent. cont'd Naqshbandi-Haqqani Foundation URL: http://www.best.com/~informe/haqqani/ [in 9 languages] Europe Mirror URL:http://www.ummah.org.uk/haqqani/ email: mateens@sybase.com, ghaddad@ccmail.sunysb.edu From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 17 14:11:45 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14026; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:59:46 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA21868; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:19:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA21859; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:19:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net (mosconi.worldweb.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12992; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:15:29 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id KAA11072 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:15:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.176]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 9:29:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960417141145.0034dc4c@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:11:45 -0400 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Seclusion of women (2) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Continuing "The custom of the seclusion of the mystics remains only in the mystical Orders, but one finds the seclusion of women prevalent in the East. When a custom takes root in a section of society certainly it can be used and abused as people may choose. No doubt jealousy, which is in human nature, is a proof of love, but jealousy can be the source of a great many crimes. Man has always guarded the treasures that he values most in all sorts of coverings, and since that which man can love most is woman he has often ignorantly tried to guard her in the same way as all things of value and importance. And the custom of seclusion has been in his hand a means that has enabled him to control his household in the manner he likes. However, it is not true that this custom was the outcome of the teaching of the Prophet. There are only two places in the records where an utterance of the Prophet on the subject is to be found. In one place it is told that when some coarse dances were going on among the peasants of his land, he said that women must be clad properly. In the other place that when the ladies of the Prophet's household were returning home after taking care of the Prophet and his army during a battle, they were disinclined to look at the battle-field and to show themselves to their enemies, and the only thing that could be advised by the Prophet was that now that peace had been made if they did not like to show themselves they might veil their faces. In India one sees the custom that an aged woman covers her face, a widow covers her face and a bride veils her face. There is some little psychological meaning in it. It is the nature of every soul to wish to hide its sorrow, and by veiling her face the widow veils her sorrow from others. And the veil that one sees on the face of an aged woman is there for the reason that in age the emotions become more visible and one has little control so as to hide them from others, and when the heart has become softened at every little touch, however gentle, it is easily moved, and the covering is as a shield over it. On the face of a bride the veil is for the preservation of her charm, of magnetism; at the same time the finest beauty in human nature is modesty, in whatever form it appears." Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 17 14:11:48 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16383; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 11:02:39 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA21873; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:19:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA21865; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:19:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net (mosconi.worldweb.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13166; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:15:42 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id KAA11077 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:15:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.176]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 9:29:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960417141148.0035c778@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:11:48 -0400 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Seclusion of women (3) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: "From the physical as well as the occult point of view, woman is more impressionable than man. The task of woman as a mother is of a greater importance than that of man on any position. Woman with her thought and feeling moulds the character of the child, and as she is susceptible to outward impressions, her impressions always have their influence on her child. During the period before motherhood very great care must be taken, for any word spoken to her reaches the depth of her being, and it re-echoes in the soul of the child. If a word made her bitter at the time or cross at a moment, it can create bitterness or crossness in the child. Especially during that period woman is more sensitive and susceptible to all impressions, beautiful or ugly. Anything striking impresses her soul deeply. A color, lightning, thunder, storm, all make impressions upon her. Conditions of life, misery or joy, all tell upon her more than on every person. Having this in consideration, the custom of seclusion has been kept in the East, and still exists among certain communities. No doubt there is another side to consider: That home and state are not two separate things. Home is the miniature of the state; and if woman performs a part equally important at home, why must she not perform an equally important part in the outward life. No doubt these ancient customs, even with their psychological importance, often make an iron bar before the progress of the generality. In the East, for the maid and mistress both, there are days set apart for rest in every month, in all different religions, among Hindus, Parsis, and Mohammedans. The life in the world is a constant battle, and a hard battle one has to fight, if one has any fineness of feeling, any decency of manner. The position of woman in this battle is worse than that of man. It greatly robs her of her womanly fineness and delicacy of sentiment. Man is more dependent upon woman than woman on man. From the first moment any child, whether boy or girl, opens his eyes in the world, he seeks the protection of woman. Woman, as his mother, sister, daughter, friend, or wife, in every form, is the source of his happiness, comfort and peace. In whatever form man may express it -- in a crude custom like the seclusion in the East or in many different ways -- to guard her against the hard knocks which fall on every soul living in this world of selfishness is the first duty of a thoughtful man. " Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 17 14:11:42 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01222; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 11:26:10 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA23277; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:31:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA23265; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:31:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net (mosconi.worldweb.net) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20156; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:27:23 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id KAA11178 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:27:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.176]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 9:29:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960417141142.008c689c@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:11:42 -0400 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Custom of seclusion of women Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Sisters and Brothers, Returning from a short trip, it was a pleasure to find a most interesting discussion going on the subject of seclusion or separation of women in certain rituals. Quoted below from THE GATHAS, Volume XIII of the Sufi messaage of Hazrat Inayat Khan, is some material on that subject. "The Origin of the Custom of the Seclusion of Women The custom of the seclusion of women has its source in mystical thought. There used to be the mystical orders of people in the East who contemplated in solitude and lived in seclusion. The magnetism and power of influence that they developed by seclusion was in itself a marvel. This gave power to their gaze, power in their word, and influence in their atmosphere. This custom of seclusion was then imitated by the kings and people of high rank. They had two ways of veiling themselves when away from home. One was to put a covering over the back of the head, which was made to hang down in front, so that the eyes could be half-covered; and the other was to put a veil over the face. It was a sort of mantle that they put on their head. Every prophet of Beni Israel had this. In the ancient pictures of the prophets of the Semitic race one will always see the head covered with a mantle. In the Hindu race also many orders of Buddhists and Yogis wore a mantle over the head. The veil which the kings also used, which was called Miqna`, later became customary in the East, and ladies of high rank wore what is called in Turkish the Yashmak. For thousands of years it has been the custom among Parsis that during their religious services the priest covers his head with a turban together with a mantle, and the Parsi women have kept the custom of covering the head with a white cloth, though it is less observed at the present time. In India, among Hindus as well as among Mussulmans, there is a custom at weddings of veiling the faces of bride and bridegroom with a veil of jasmine flowers. Under all these different customs of veiling the head and face one finds a mystical significance. Man's form is considered by Sufis as consisting of two parts, the head and the body, the body for action and the head for thought. Since the head is for thought its radiance is incomparably greater than that of the body, and the hairs are as rays of that radiance in a physical form. It is a constant outpouring of light that one observes in man's life. Every action of looking, or breathing, or speaking, robs so much of the radiance out of man's life. By preserving this radiance the mystic develops within him that influence, power and magnetism which in the average person are wasted. For instance, closing the eyes, which is a custom among mystics, not only helps in concentration and repose of mind, but during the moment when the eyes are closed, it preserves the radiance from flowing out. These customs were helpful to the kings and commanders for developing their power and influence, and they were valued for ladies of rank for preserving their beauty and charm. We learn by this that a life but little exposed to the outer world, whether through seclusion, or silence, or a perfect state of repose with the closed eyes, clasped hands and crossed legs, has a great influence." Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 17 14:35:19 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09254; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 11:38:10 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA24439; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:40:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA24412; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:40:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from eprice@localhost) by helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA24518; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 07:35:19 -0700 Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 07:35:19 -0700 (MST) From: Ellen L Price To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Men and Women, Prayer and Tassawuf In-Reply-To: <199604160610.XAA14986@jobe.shell.portal.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: If you have ever been to a choral concert where there is a separate women's choir and a separate men's choir and a mixed choir, you will see the difference expressed musically. Women have a different (more refine?) vibration. Perhaps this is why the men have to be in front of the women. They may need to be closer to the "source." There is a hadith of the Prophet (PBBUH) that says something about prayer and women being close to His heart. Perhaps one of the scholars out there can come up with the whole quote. Ellen On Mon, 15 Apr 1996, Haramullah wrote: > 49960415 > > assalam alaykum, my kin > > |From: Ellen L Price > |Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 20:40:09 -0700 (MST) > > |In all of this discussion on separation of the sexes in prayer, no one > |has mentioned energy and the different qualities of the energy of men and > |women. This would be an esoteric reason for the separation. > > This is the second mention I have heard of this within the last week > in the forums within which I travel online. The first was from a Wiccan > (preChristian revivalist) who mentioned that they were separating the > males and females because, in hir words, 'women have absorptive and > men are passive energies and it works best to worship separately'. > > I gather that within many Middle-Eastern cultures women are thought of > as wild sexual powerhouses which require some sort of 'clipping' or > 'covering' in order to be tempered. I have little corraboration as yet, > but will let you know if I find this to be true on the whole after > speaking with more people about the cultural differences. > > What kinds of energy differences were you writing about? Is there some > reason that men and women are *fundamentally* different as compared to > culturally instructed to behave in particular ways? What have you > noticed about the men's and women's energy? > > peace be with you, my kin > > Haramullah > tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 17 15:20:58 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18815; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 11:53:57 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA29298; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 11:21:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA29267; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 11:21:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id LAA11930 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 11:21:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.140]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:38:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960417152058.0037ecb0@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 11:20:58 -0400 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: Sufism and Tassawuf Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 03:07 AM 4/13/96 -0400, Steve H Rose wrote: >Asalaamu aleikum. > >On Mon, 8 Apr 1996, Lilyan Ila wrote: > >[snip] > >> Why do those who wish to be Sufis without being Muslims gravitate toward >> Arabic names and selective Islamic practices to a greater extent than >> those of other traditions? > Taking the name of a great saint or mystic is a common practice among those of all beliefs. There are at least two reasons: 1. It is hoped that the one who bears the name will be inspired to act in a manner befitting the name. This can be a great source of inspiration to the initiate. 2. The name is adopted as a sign of respect for those who have prceded with the name. Warm regards, Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 17 17:20:51 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06730; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 14:06:59 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id NAA13515; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 13:20:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from halon.sybase.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id NAA13488; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 13:20:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.sybase.com (sybgate) by halon.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4/SybFW4.0) id AA26240; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:21:28 -0700 Received: from serii.sybase.com ([158.159.40.63]) by smtp1.sybase.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/SybH3.5-030896) id AA01273; Wed, 17 Apr 96 10:20:52 PDT Received: by serii.sybase.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-4.1/SybEC3.2) id KAA16108; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:20:51 -0700 Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:20:51 -0700 From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui) Message-Id: <199604171720.KAA16108@serii.sybase.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Custom of seclusion of women X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Very beautifully put. May Allah grant to Hazrat Inayat Khan lights in his grave, the final seclusion, for these light-filled words. --mateen siddiqui From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 17 18:05:30 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29339; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 14:42:20 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA20650; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 14:10:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA20625; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 14:10:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from homer19.u.washington.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05181; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 14:05:31 -0400 Received: from localhost by homer19.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW96.04/UW-NDC Revision: 2.33 ) id AA49569; Wed, 17 Apr 96 11:05:30 -0700 Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 11:05:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Lilyan Ila To: tariqasnet Subject: Muslim women in history (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 18:43:15 -0600 (CST) From: Mohja Kahf Subject: Muslim women in history Um al Muqtadir-billah. She directed state affairs due to the incapacity of her son, the Abbasid caliph al-Muqtadir-billah, in the early fourth century A.H. In a public square in Baghdad, she set up a tribunal for the purpose of settling people's petitions and lawsuits one day a week. She placed one of her female courtiers as judge. People were scandalized and no one came to her on the first day. On the second day, the woman courtier brought the famous judge Abul Hassan so the public would know that there was scholarly approval. Many wronged people benefited from this increased access to justice, so people soon overcame their resistance to this idea. Some fourteen years later, military officers fomented resentment at the female influence in the state, and staged a coup. After a failed attempt, they killed Muqtadir in a second coup in 320 A.H. His mother, who became ill from shock, was imprisoned. The new caliph, Al-Qahir, demanded all her wealth and brutally tortured her. He then tried to force her to dissolve all her awqaf (trusts) and appoint his agent to sell them. She retorted, "I established these awqaf in the name of charity and in the name of closeness to Makkah and Madinah, for the weak and the poor, and I will not authorize their dissolution and sale." Qahir thn dissolved and sold them anyway (without the formality of her approval). In 321, Um al-Muqtadir's condition worsened due to the torture. A prominent townsman who had been her son's supporter cared for her at his own mother's home. She died that year and was buried in the cemetary she had founded on Al-Rusafa (a bank of the Tigris River). Source: Umar Kahhala, A'lam al Nisa. Mohja Kahf Fayetteville Arkansas U.S. From @helen.pcug.co.uk:uucp@pcug Wed Apr 17 15:23:40 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22123; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 15:18:50 -0400 Received: from ibmPCUG.CO.UK by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA29712; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 15:18:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from helen.pcug.co.uk by alice.ibmPCUG.CO.UK id ap23274; 17 Apr 96 19:38 BST To: alice.ibmpcug.co.uk!europe.std.com!tariqas-approval@pcug.co.uk Subject: UUCP notification Date: Wed, 17 Apr 96 18:59:02 BST From: uucp@pcug.std.com Sender: uucp@pcug.std.com Message-Id: <9604171859.aa02147@helen.pcug.co.uk> Status: RO X-Status: Message from UUCP on ibmpcug Wed Apr 17 18:59:02 1996 UUCP job chanchalN0381 for system chanchal requested by mmdf After 168 hours, your message has not yet been fully delivered. The potential for successfully delivery exists for a further 24 days. No further action is required by you. Problems are usually due to service interruptions at the receiving machine; possibly the recipient is on holiday, cancelling the account shortly, or simply choosing not to collect their email. Please do NOT reply to this automatic message. Instead, further info about this problem can be obtained from help@pcug.co.uk Please include this message Regards WinNET (UK) Support A part of the PC User Group The job was queued at 1996-04-09 20:51:51. It is rmail jkhan >From alice.ibmpcug.co.uk!europe.std.com!tariqas-approval Tue Apr 9 20:51:50 1996 remote from ibmpcug Received: from Alice.ibmPCUG.CO.UK by helen.pcug.co.uk id bb28524; 9 Apr 96 20:51 BST Received: from europe.std.com by alice.ibmPCUG.CO.UK id aa19727; 9 Apr 96 5:00 BST Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA07795; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:14:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA07779; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:14:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA27950; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:14:11 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:14:10 +1000 (EST) From: Dien Alfred Rice To: tariqas@europe.std.com Subject: Re: Shah, Islam and Sufism In-Reply-To: <199604062022.MAA28661@jobe.shell.portal.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@europe.std.com On Sat, 6 Apr 1996, Haramullah wrote: [...] > I looked. Here's a bit of what I found (*without* consulting > _The Sufis_!; this from _The Way of the Sufi_), though it does > not directly support my claim and I may have to resort to that > other book anyway): > > This brings us to another important Sufi projection, one which > causes bafflement -- and even rage -- in certain types of person, > but which should nevertheless be faced. It is the assertion that > when Sufic activity becomes concentrated at one point or in one > community in a very active and 'real' (not imitation) form, it > does so only for a limited time and for distinct purposes. It is > the type of person who says 'I want it here and now or not at all' > who dislikes this statement. Put in another way, the idea is that > no society is ever complete, neither are its needs exactly the same > as those of older societies. No Sufi sets up an institution > intended to endure. The outer form in which he imparts his ideas > is a transient vehicle, designed for local operation. That which > is perpetual, he says, is in another range. > > p. 33 > ----- > > Perhaps this 'other range' is that of Allah. This could be used to > support the notion that Sufism is not encompassed by Islam, of course. It is certainly not clear, if you wish to use it for that. Idries Shah may be adressing the fact that often the Sufi Shaykh will make the teaching appropriate to the student, depending on the student's condition. Tasawwuf is the deeper, inner dimention of Islam. To follow ordinary Islam, no Shaykh is needed. However, to obtain the inner dimension, usually one needs a Shaykh, and to take the student by the hand and lead her or him to the Source, the Shaykh has to take into account the student's condition. Of course, Sufism is also the inner dimension of every true religion.... The Qur'an says "And for every nation there is a messenger" (10:47), and implicit in this is that the message is essentially the same. I have also read, in Zen writings, the saying that Zen is the heart of religion. I have no problem accepting both the claims of Sufism and Zen as true. Peace, Farid ud-Dien Rice From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Apr 17 19:08:28 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24616; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 16:11:47 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA28460; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 15:09:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA28455; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 15:08:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id PAA14723 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 15:09:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.131]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 14:25:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960417190828.008e5a84@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 15:08:28 -0400 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com, tariqas@facteur.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: comment on turning Cc: JHulvey@aol.com Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 04:40 PM 4/15/96 -0400, JHulvey@aol.com wrote: >Let me begin by saying I am not attempting to tell anyone what should and >should not be. I don't belong to an order - why should I argue with any >order's practices? I admit I was a little surprised to find out about this >separation of men and women in prayer in (presumably) all Sufi tariqas in the >West. Perhaps I had not realized that all of them were within Islam...is that >correct? Dear Julie and Tariqas friends, Your assumption is incorrect on both accounts. Many Sufi orders, The International Sufi Movement is most familiar to me, have no separation of the sexes. If one has risen to the Sufi viewpoint it should be possible to put sexual feelings to rest or under control while engaged in group spiritual activity. If this causes the participant to exercise additional self control, can it be all bad? Universal Sufis accept the beliefs and scriptures of all the world's religions feeling that they are, at their core, essentialy the same and founded on the same great principle, the golden rule. Warm regards, Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 18 00:34:17 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07663; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 20:57:06 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA10538; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 20:33:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA10529; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 20:33:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA24849; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 10:34:19 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 10:34:17 +1000 (EST) From: Dien Alfred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Masters of Wisdom In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum, Following on from the earlier discussion of "northern" and "southern" Sufism.... Murat Yagan writes only a little (that I could find) on "northern" and "southern" Sufism in his book "The Teachings of Kebzeh: Essentials of Sufism from the Caucasus Mountains." (I only just bought the book, so I haven't read it through yet.) Yagan writes: "....Sufi tariqats divide into two; the Jehri tariqats of northern Sufism, particularly Turkey, and the Hafi tariqats. Placing effort on developing your inner centers belongs to the Jehri tariqats. The other ones deal mainly with submission and faith, and they call it `Hafi.' It's a conventional meaning, from a Sufi glossary." (p. 137) Also, in the book's glossary under "Tariqat," we find: "Jehri Tariqat: the work of developing your inner centers for developing your own tool (psyche), with which to make contact with the Divine; Hafi Tariqat: through the strength of your faith and submission you are held, supported, and protected to make contact with the Divine by means of spiritualized mind." (p. 175) Also, in the glossary under "Jehri tariqat," we find: "Jehri Tariqat. Those northern Sufi orders, most commonly found in Turkey and Central Asia, which place more emphasis on spiritual exercise than on service and devotion, and which are more concerned with the attainment of liberation than with experiences of ecstatic love." (p. 166) As for Murat Yagan himself, he is ethnically Abkhazian (from the Caucasus mountains), though I think he was raised in Turkey (his parents fled Abkhazia, probably related to the coming of Communism). He says his mother was a Sufi (I haven't seen if he says his father was, but I haven't read the whole book), and he was a member of a Bektashi tariqa himself in Turkey. Wassalam, Farid ud-Dien Rice From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 18 11:57:06 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12041; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:09:21 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id HAA04370; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 07:55:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id HAA04363; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 07:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spike.cc.bellcore.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05254; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 07:53:21 -0400 Received: by spike.cc.bellcore.com id AA06957 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for tariqas@world.std.com); Thu, 18 Apr 1996 07:57:06 -0400 Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 07:57:06 -0400 From: 25275-rana Message-Id: <199604181157.AA06957@spike.cc.bellcore.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com, tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Seclusion of women (3) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Gee, as I read this discourse, I'm beginning to feel less and less like a woman & I guess my mother was never a real woman. Or perhaps American women are not real women. Or maybe, the women in my family are somehow damaged goods, being that they have successfully reared their children, and yet have been able to interact in the community as responsible citizens. Sehr > From tariqas-approval@europe.std.com Wed Apr 17 21:52:17 1996 > Delivery-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 96 21:52:23 -0400 > X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f > X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net > X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type> : > text/plain> ; > charset="us-ascii"> > Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:11:48 -0400 > To: tariqas@world.std.com > From: James McCaig > Subject: Seclusion of women (3) > Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com > Reply-To: tariqas@europe.std.com > Content-Length: 2746 > > "From the physical as well as the occult point of view, woman is more > impressionable than man. The task of woman as a mother is of a greater > importance than that of man on any position. Woman with her thought and > feeling moulds the character of the child, and as she is susceptible to > outward impressions, her impressions always have their influence on her > child. During the period before motherhood very great care must be taken, > for any word spoken to her reaches the depth of her being, and it re-echoes > in the soul of the child. If a word made her bitter at the time or cross at > a moment, it can create bitterness or crossness in the child. Especially > during that period woman is more sensitive and susceptible to all > impressions, beautiful or ugly. Anything striking impresses her soul > deeply. A color, lightning, thunder, storm, all make impressions upon her. > Conditions of life, misery or joy, all tell upon her more than on every > person. Having this in consideration, the custom of seclusion has been kept > in the East, and still exists among certain communities. > > > No doubt there is another side to consider: That home and state are not > two separate things. Home is the miniature of the state; and if woman > performs a part equally important at home, why must she not perform an > equally important part in the outward life. No doubt these ancient customs, > even with their psychological importance, often make an iron bar before the > progress of the generality. In the East, for the maid and mistress both, > there are days set apart for rest in every month, in all different > religions, among Hindus, Parsis, and Mohammedans. The life in the world is > a constant battle, and a hard battle one has to fight, if one has any > fineness of feeling, any decency of manner. The position of woman in this > battle is worse than that of man. It greatly robs her of her womanly > fineness and delicacy of sentiment. Man is more dependent upon woman than > woman on man. From the first moment any child, whether boy or girl, opens > his eyes in the world, he seeks the protection of woman. Woman, as his > mother, sister, daughter, friend, or wife, in every form, is the source of > his happiness, comfort and peace. In whatever form man may express it -- in > a crude custom like the seclusion in the East or in many different ways -- > to guard her against the hard knocks which fall on every soul living in this > world of selfishness is the first duty of a thoughtful man. " > > > > Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington > Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore > United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi > > jmccaig@worldweb.net > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 18 11:57:06 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16195; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:18:40 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id HAA04223; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 07:53:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from spike.cc.bellcore.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id HAA04219; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 07:53:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by spike.cc.bellcore.com id AA06957 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for tariqas@europe.std.com); Thu, 18 Apr 1996 07:57:06 -0400 Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 07:57:06 -0400 From: 25275-rana Message-Id: <199604181157.AA06957@spike.cc.bellcore.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com, tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Seclusion of women (3) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Gee, as I read this discourse, I'm beginning to feel less and less like a woman & I guess my mother was never a real woman. Or perhaps American women are not real women. Or maybe, the women in my family are somehow damaged goods, being that they have successfully reared their children, and yet have been able to interact in the community as responsible citizens. Sehr > From tariqas-approval@europe.std.com Wed Apr 17 21:52:17 1996 > Delivery-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 96 21:52:23 -0400 > X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f > X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net > X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type> : > text/plain> ; > charset="us-ascii"> > Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:11:48 -0400 > To: tariqas@world.std.com > From: James McCaig > Subject: Seclusion of women (3) > Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com > Reply-To: tariqas@europe.std.com > Content-Length: 2746 > > "From the physical as well as the occult point of view, woman is more > impressionable than man. The task of woman as a mother is of a greater > importance than that of man on any position. Woman with her thought and > feeling moulds the character of the child, and as she is susceptible to > outward impressions, her impressions always have their influence on her > child. During the period before motherhood very great care must be taken, > for any word spoken to her reaches the depth of her being, and it re-echoes > in the soul of the child. If a word made her bitter at the time or cross at > a moment, it can create bitterness or crossness in the child. Especially > during that period woman is more sensitive and susceptible to all > impressions, beautiful or ugly. Anything striking impresses her soul > deeply. A color, lightning, thunder, storm, all make impressions upon her. > Conditions of life, misery or joy, all tell upon her more than on every > person. Having this in consideration, the custom of seclusion has been kept > in the East, and still exists among certain communities. > > > No doubt there is another side to consider: That home and state are not > two separate things. Home is the miniature of the state; and if woman > performs a part equally important at home, why must she not perform an > equally important part in the outward life. No doubt these ancient customs, > even with their psychological importance, often make an iron bar before the > progress of the generality. In the East, for the maid and mistress both, > there are days set apart for rest in every month, in all different > religions, among Hindus, Parsis, and Mohammedans. The life in the world is > a constant battle, and a hard battle one has to fight, if one has any > fineness of feeling, any decency of manner. The position of woman in this > battle is worse than that of man. It greatly robs her of her womanly > fineness and delicacy of sentiment. Man is more dependent upon woman than > woman on man. From the first moment any child, whether boy or girl, opens > his eyes in the world, he seeks the protection of woman. Woman, as his > mother, sister, daughter, friend, or wife, in every form, is the source of > his happiness, comfort and peace. In whatever form man may express it -- in > a crude custom like the seclusion in the East or in many different ways -- > to guard her against the hard knocks which fall on every soul living in this > world of selfishness is the first duty of a thoughtful man. " > > > > Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington > Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore > United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi > > jmccaig@worldweb.net > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 18 12:00:13 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21864; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:29:55 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA04672; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:00:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from weaver.weaver.guilford.k12.nc.us by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA04664; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:00:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by weaver.weaver.guilford.k12.nc.us id IAA02084; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:00:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:00:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Bob King X-Sender: bking@weaver To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Masters and Traditions In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A Greetings! I have a question which is elementary but important to me! Can anyone help me by saying what kind of Sufism Rumi fits into? For lack of a better phrase, I fell in love with Rumi's poetry. Yet, my (unavoidably Western) read of these poems is that they are about the spiritual practice of relationships, particularly love relationships. Ironically you know! -- the recent discussion about the fine points of separating or not separating the sexes seems to bear little if any relationship to Rumi's placement of love relationship in the very center of meaningful spiritual life and practice (again, this is my read of course!). In other words Rumi seems to merge actual and spiritual. I don't sense any separation whatsoever, in his poems anyway! As a beginning learner about Sufism, so far it seems to me that the relationship between Rumi and Sufism is somewhat curious, like the relationship between Christ and Christianity in some ways! Is there anything in this? Do great masters talk mainly about specific love, and then do we mainly talk about abstract doctrine in their names? I don't mean to be making an exact parallel or an oversimplification here. I'm just trying to understand and get to the next place, and these are the terms I am able to use at this point in order to do that! Again apologies for the elementary nature of my question, but if Rumi were alive today what kind of Sufi would he be? I think that's the kind I'm looking for! Thanks. In the spirit of love and learning. . . Bob From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 18 14:36:25 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24853; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:09:13 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA21867; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 10:36:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from WIZARD.COLORADO.EDU by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA21860; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 10:36:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from granger.colorado.edu (204.228.68.23) by WIZARD.COLORADO.EDU (PMDF #12158) id <01I3OIKQUKW08Y4WTE@WIZARD.COLORADO.EDU>; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:34 GMT Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:36:25 -0600 From: Mike Granger Subject: RE: Seclusion of women (3) To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960418143625.2eb7df30@daryl.colorado.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: granger_m@daryl.colorado.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Sehr, You are who you are, as much of, or less of, whatever you've got, whether man or woman. There is, of course, no more important role than that of being a mother and raising children, and you're quip that they might be damaged goods is silly, though the point is well taken. Whatever you find within yourself to become or do in the world, more power to you, and may Allah Almighty give you courage and fortitude. Abdassalam Granger At 07:57 AM 4/18/96 -0400, you wrote: > >Gee, as I read this discourse, I'm beginning to feel less and less like a >woman & I guess my mother was never a real woman. Or perhaps American >women are not real women. Or maybe, the women in my family are somehow >damaged goods, being that they have successfully reared their children, and >yet have been able to interact in the community as responsible citizens. > >Sehr > >> From tariqas-approval@europe.std.com Wed Apr 17 21:52:17 1996 >> Delivery-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 96 21:52:23 -0400 >> X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f >> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net >> X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) >> Mime-Version: 1.0 >> Content-Type> : > text/plain> ; > charset="us-ascii"> >> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:11:48 -0400 >> To: tariqas@world.std.com >> From: James McCaig >> Subject: Seclusion of women (3) >> Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com >> Reply-To: tariqas@europe.std.com >> Content-Length: 2746 >> >> "From the physical as well as the occult point of view, woman is more >> impressionable than man. The task of woman as a mother is of a greater >> importance than that of man on any position. Woman with her thought and >> feeling moulds the character of the child, and as she is susceptible to >> outward impressions, her impressions always have their influence on her >> child. During the period before motherhood very great care must be taken, >> for any word spoken to her reaches the depth of her being, and it re-echoes >> in the soul of the child. If a word made her bitter at the time or cross at >> a moment, it can create bitterness or crossness in the child. Especially >> during that period woman is more sensitive and susceptible to all >> impressions, beautiful or ugly. Anything striking impresses her soul >> deeply. A color, lightning, thunder, storm, all make impressions upon her. >> Conditions of life, misery or joy, all tell upon her more than on every >> person. Having this in consideration, the custom of seclusion has been kept >> in the East, and still exists among certain communities. >> >> >> No doubt there is another side to consider: That home and state are not >> two separate things. Home is the miniature of the state; and if woman >> performs a part equally important at home, why must she not perform an >> equally important part in the outward life. No doubt these ancient customs, >> even with their psychological importance, often make an iron bar before the >> progress of the generality. In the East, for the maid and mistress both, >> there are days set apart for rest in every month, in all different >> religions, among Hindus, Parsis, and Mohammedans. The life in the world is >> a constant battle, and a hard battle one has to fight, if one has any >> fineness of feeling, any decency of manner. The position of woman in this >> battle is worse than that of man. It greatly robs her of her womanly >> fineness and delicacy of sentiment. Man is more dependent upon woman than >> woman on man. From the first moment any child, whether boy or girl, opens >> his eyes in the world, he seeks the protection of woman. Woman, as his >> mother, sister, daughter, friend, or wife, in every form, is the source of >> his happiness, comfort and peace. In whatever form man may express it -- in >> a crude custom like the seclusion in the East or in many different ways -- >> to guard her against the hard knocks which fall on every soul living in this >> world of selfishness is the first duty of a thoughtful man. " >> >> >> >> Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington >> Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore >> United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi >> >> jmccaig@worldweb.net >> >> > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 18 15:20:20 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06074; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:24:03 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA28378; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:23:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03720; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:20:28 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA27654; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199604181520.LAA27654@europe.std.com> X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [Jim Norton ] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Thu Apr 18 11:20:18 1996 Return-Path: Received: from mhub0.tc.umn.edu by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA27607; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:20:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by mhub0.tc.umn.edu; Thu, 18 Apr 96 10:20:13 -0500 Received: from dialup-5-84.gw.umn.edu by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Thu, 18 Apr 96 10:20:04 -0500 Message-ID: <31765D5C.EFF@ast1.spa.umn.edu> Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 10:18:52 -0500 From: Jim Norton Organization: Shamsuddin Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@europe.std.com Subject: Re: Masters and Traditions References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peace and Blessings, Bob: I think that Rumi IS a Mevlevi (the order of Sufis which he really started). I too love his poetry and stories. Colman Barks does such poetic translations!!! If you are on the Web try for a new Rumi poem every day. I hope this helps Love and light, Shamsuddin Jim Norton Bob King wrote: > > Greetings! > > I have a question which is elementary but important to me! Can anyone > help me by saying what kind of Sufism Rumi fits into? > > For lack of a better phrase, I fell in love with Rumi's poetry. > Yet, my (unavoidably Western) read of these poems is that they are about > the spiritual practice of relationships, particularly love relationships. > > Ironically you know! -- the recent discussion about the fine points of > separating or not separating the sexes seems to bear little if any > relationship to Rumi's placement of love relationship in the very center > of meaningful spiritual life and practice (again, this is my read of > course!). In other words Rumi seems to merge actual and spiritual. I > don't sense any separation whatsoever, in his poems anyway! > > As a beginning learner about Sufism, so far it seems to me that the > relationship between Rumi and Sufism is somewhat curious, like the > relationship between Christ and Christianity in some ways! Is there > anything in this? Do great masters talk mainly about specific love, and > then do we mainly talk about abstract doctrine in their names? I don't > mean to be making an exact parallel or an oversimplification here. I'm > just trying to understand and get to the next place, and these are the > terms I am able to use at this point in order to do that! > > Again apologies for the elementary nature of my question, but if Rumi > were alive today what kind of Sufi would he be? I think that's > the kind I'm looking for! Thanks. In the spirit of love and learning. . . > > Bob From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 18 16:20:23 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25232; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 12:46:52 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA05960; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 12:19:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from internet.roadrunner.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA05943; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 12:19:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ([206.206.168.132]) by internet.roadrunner.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA05119 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 10:20:23 -0600 Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 10:20:23 -0600 Message-Id: <199604181620.KAA05119@internet.roadrunner.com> X-Sender: hakim@roadrunner.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: hakim@roadrunner.com (Hakim Archuletta) Subject: Womanhood and Islam X-Mailer: Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In relation to some of the discussion on women, I reccomend very much a tape entitled: "Womanhood: An Islamic Perspective" A very reflective talk given by Dr. Thomas Cleary, the Buddhist scholar and translator. The coincidence of the discussion on Buddhism is interesting. Peace to all. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 18 18:48:10 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08916; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 15:32:11 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA24265; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 14:44:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from spike.cc.bellcore.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA24244; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 14:44:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by spike.cc.bellcore.com id AA16472 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for tariqas@europe.std.com); Thu, 18 Apr 1996 14:48:10 -0400 Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 14:48:10 -0400 From: 25275-rana Message-Id: <199604181848.AA16472@spike.cc.bellcore.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: RE: Seclusion of women (3) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: My offense is with the definitions of who or what women should be. They appear very narrow & do not consider those, who, for whatever reason, have not been blessed with children and/or stayed within their four walls. Do only those women who bear children & remain apart from the world deserve our respect? Is it only they who are without blame? To state that all women should be mothers is a broad & dangerous comment, consider the weak & unstable for a moment. Consider personal dispositions. I would no more think that all women should be mothers than all men should be accountants! Hey, how about some talk on the dispositions of men for a moment. Too often all the talk is how women should behave. Let's start a thread on Moslem men and their roles & responsibilities. Let's see how the impotent/infertile men feel when they read that it is their responsibility to sire children. Let's see how the divorced feel when they read that they must fully maintain their ex-wives. > From tariqas-approval@europe.std.com Thu Apr 18 10:54:09 1996 > Delivery-Date: Thu, 18 Apr 96 10:54:10 -0400 > X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f > Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:36:25 -0600 > From: Mike Granger > Subject: RE: Seclusion of women (3) > To: tariqas@europe.std.com > Content-Type> : > text/plain> ; > charset="us-ascii"> > X-Sender: granger_m@daryl.colorado.edu > X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com > Reply-To: tariqas@europe.std.com > Content-Length: 4389 > > Dear Sehr, > > You are who you are, as much of, or less of, whatever you've got, whether man or woman. There is, of course, no more important role than that of being a mother and raising children, and you're quip that they might be damaged goods is silly, though the point is well taken. Whatever you find within yourself to become or do in the world, more power to you, and may Allah Almighty give you courage and fortitude. > > Abdassalam Granger > > > > At 07:57 AM 4/18/96 -0400, you wrote: > > > >Gee, as I read this discourse, I'm beginning to feel less and less like a > >woman & I guess my mother was never a real woman. Or perhaps American > >women are not real women. Or maybe, the women in my family are somehow > >damaged goods, being that they have successfully reared their children, and > >yet have been able to interact in the community as responsible citizens. > > > >Sehr > > > >> From tariqas-approval@europe.std.com Wed Apr 17 21:52:17 1996 > >> Delivery-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 96 21:52:23 -0400 > >> X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f > >> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net > >> X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) > >> Mime-Version: 1.0 > >> Content-Type> : > text/plain> ; > charset="us-ascii"> > >> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:11:48 -0400 > >> To: tariqas@world.std.com > >> From: James McCaig > >> Subject: Seclusion of women (3) > >> Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com > >> Reply-To: tariqas@europe.std.com > >> Content-Length: 2746 > >> > >> "From the physical as well as the occult point of view, woman is more > >> impressionable than man. The task of woman as a mother is of a greater > >> importance than that of man on any position. Woman with her thought and > >> feeling moulds the character of the child, and as she is susceptible to > >> outward impressions, her impressions always have their influence on her > >> child. During the period before motherhood very great care must be taken, > >> for any word spoken to her reaches the depth of her being, and it re-echoes > >> in the soul of the child. If a word made her bitter at the time or cross at > >> a moment, it can create bitterness or crossness in the child. Especially > >> during that period woman is more sensitive and susceptible to all > >> impressions, beautiful or ugly. Anything striking impresses her soul > >> deeply. A color, lightning, thunder, storm, all make impressions upon her. > >> Conditions of life, misery or joy, all tell upon her more than on every > >> person. Having this in consideration, the custom of seclusion has been kept > >> in the East, and still exists among certain communities. > >> > >> > >> No doubt there is another side to consider: That home and state are not > >> two separate things. Home is the miniature of the state; and if woman > >> performs a part equally important at home, why must she not perform an > >> equally important part in the outward life. No doubt these ancient customs, > >> even with their psychological importance, often make an iron bar before the > >> progress of the generality. In the East, for the maid and mistress both, > >> there are days set apart for rest in every month, in all different > >> religions, among Hindus, Parsis, and Mohammedans. The life in the world is > >> a constant battle, and a hard battle one has to fight, if one has any > >> fineness of feeling, any decency of manner. The position of woman in this > >> battle is worse than that of man. It greatly robs her of her womanly > >> fineness and delicacy of sentiment. Man is more dependent upon woman than > >> woman on man. From the first moment any child, whether boy or girl, opens > >> his eyes in the world, he seeks the protection of woman. Woman, as his > >> mother, sister, daughter, friend, or wife, in every form, is the source of > >> his happiness, comfort and peace. In whatever form man may express it -- in > >> a crude custom like the seclusion in the East or in many different ways -- > >> to guard her against the hard knocks which fall on every soul living in this > >> world of selfishness is the first duty of a thoughtful man. " > >> > >> > >> > >> Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington > >> Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore > >> United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi > >> > >> jmccaig@worldweb.net > >> > >> > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 18 19:29:18 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00332; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 16:03:58 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA29427; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 15:30:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA29415; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 15:30:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06987; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 15:29:19 -0400 Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 15:29:18 -0400 (EDT) From: arsalaan fay Subject: Re: Masters and Traditions To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Bob Your question is wonderful. Thank You. One can talk about sufism or do it. In my perception Mevlana did it and was inspired to portray in poetry how others could follow. Something very difficult to do, but he was sucessful enough to still be read today. I see interpersonal relationships is a minor theme in the Mathnawi, not central as might be portrayed in certain modern translations. I look forward to more comments, or maybe I should un-subscribe and spend the time reading Mevlana. Peace Arsalaan Fay From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 18 21:05:34 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11123; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 17:10:39 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA11930; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 17:10:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08452; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 17:05:41 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA11167; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 17:05:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 17:05:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199604182105.RAA11167@europe.std.com> X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [Shamsuddin Jim Norton ] Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Thu Apr 18 17:05:32 1996 Return-Path: Received: from gonzo.sci.mus.mn.us by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA11148; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 17:05:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.9.147.13 (cc2q630d.sci.mus.mn.us [206.9.147.13]) by gonzo.sci.mus.mn.us (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA12862 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 16:09:04 -0500 Message-ID: <3176AEAF.BA0@ast1.spa.umn.edu> Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 16:05:51 -0500 From: Shamsuddin Jim Norton Reply-To: norton@ast1.spa.umn.edu Organization: Shamsuddin Development, Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@europe.std.com Subject: Re: Masters and Traditions References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Arsalaan, I have started a Mevlana Jelauddin Rumi home page on the WWW. It includes references to Rumi sources and other interestin Sufi resources on the Web. My desire has been to find publications like the Mathnawi which last I checked was out of print. Any resources you have found I would be glad to add to my web site. Just email me at: norton@ast1.spa.umn.edu :)or add your comments to my guest book on Shamsuddin's Homestead in the Internet Wilderness. Hope the interest in Rumi takes off world wide. His is a presence we need to revive as we struggle to enter the 'new age' gracefully. Hope to hear from you soon. Grace & Light, Shamsuddin Jim Norton Shamsuddin Development, Ltd. A Division of The Global New Age Net (c) 1996 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 18 21:18:04 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17699; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 17:21:34 -0400 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA13395; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 17:21:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15108; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 17:18:12 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA12886; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 17:18:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 17:18:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199604182118.RAA12886@europe.std.com> X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Admin request Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Thu Apr 18 17:18:02 1996 Return-Path: Received: from mail.sdsu.edu by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA12836; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 17:17:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [130.191.125.8] ([130.191.125.8]) by mail.sdsu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.4) with SMTP id OAA26622 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 14:17:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 14:17:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199604182117.OAA26622@mail.sdsu.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: mail.sdsu.edu: Host [130.191.125.8] didn't use HELO protocol X-Sender: hall@mail.sdsu.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@europe.std.com From: hall@mail.sdsu.edu (sync) unsubscribe From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 18 20:58:31 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27735; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 17:37:25 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA10299; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 16:58:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA10295; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 16:58:25 -0400 (EDT) From: MFKimball@aol.com Received: by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA24069 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 16:58:31 -0400 Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 16:58:31 -0400 Message-Id: <960418165831_516917740@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: women in the West and elsewhere [was Re: Sufism and Tassawuf Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Ellen, How would you describe that different energy? Michelle From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Apr 18 23:44:28 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12389; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 20:30:46 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA00143; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 19:43:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from WIZARD.COLORADO.EDU by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id TAA29939; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 19:42:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from granger.colorado.edu (granger.cusys.edu) by WIZARD.COLORADO.EDU (PMDF #12158) id <01I3P1PBRN288WW3VZ@WIZARD.COLORADO.EDU>; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 17:42 GMT Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 17:44:28 -0600 From: Mike Granger Subject: RE: Seclusion of women (3) To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960418234428.381f5ede@wizard.colorado.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: granger_m@wizard.colorado.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:48 PM 4/18/96 -0400, you wrote: > >My offense is with the definitions of who or what women should be. >They appear very narrow & do not consider those, who, for whatever reason, >have not been blessed with children and/or stayed within their four walls. > >Do only those women who bear children & remain apart from the world >deserve our respect? Is it only they who are without blame? > Anyone who were to answer yes to the above questions would be very wrong. However, I think that perhaps the brother was saying and affirming that, as more and more women decide on lifestyles and careers that do not, at least for a time, involve being a mother, still, being a mother is a very critical, nay, the most critical "job" in our society, or in any society. If for whatever reason, a woman doesn't find herself in that role, it should not diminish her status as one of those who are honoured to be a "Son (or Daughter) of Adam. >To state that all women should be mothers is a broad & dangerous comment, >consider the weak & unstable for a moment. Consider personal dispositions. >I would no more think that all women should be mothers than all men should >be accountants! > Was the term "should" really used? Certainly one should consider all of the myriad characteristics and the broad range of emotional and psychological characteristics of of the species before judging one of them, male or female. Thank God, we're all unique, and have our own set of traits and our own internal makeup. Excuse me, though, when I say that maybe your comparison between mothers and accountants doesn't quite make sense. Maybe you should have said "than all men should be fathers." >Hey, how about some talk on the dispositions of men for a moment. Too often >all the talk is how women should behave. Let's start a thread on Moslem >men and their roles & responsibilities. Let's see how the impotent/infertile >men feel when they read that it is their responsibility to sire children. >Let's see how the divorced feel when they read that they must fully maintain >their ex-wives. > It's clear to me that, as your tone suggests, you were possibly hurt by some of the things that were stated in these postings on the "role of women", and I can only apologize for anything that may have been said by me or another brother that was truly offensive. No such offense was ever intended. Just a comment a divorce in Islam: I do not believe that alimony, as it is known here, is a part of Islamic divorce. There may be some kind of "payoff", and continual child support is certainly mandated, but I'm pretty sure that life-long alimony is not, nor should it be to my mind. Can someone else please help me on this? Am I totally wrong? Abdassalam Granger > >> From tariqas-approval@europe.std.com Thu Apr 18 10:54:09 1996 >> Delivery-Date: Thu, 18 Apr 96 10:54:10 -0400 >> X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f >> Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:36:25 -0600 >> From: Mike Granger >> Subject: RE: Seclusion of women (3) >> To: tariqas@europe.std.com >> Content-Type> : > text/plain> ; > charset="us-ascii"> >> X-Sender: granger_m@daryl.colorado.edu >> X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) >> Mime-Version: 1.0 >> Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com >> Reply-To: tariqas@europe.std.com >> Content-Length: 4389 >> >> Dear Sehr, >> >> You are who you are, as much of, or less of, whatever you've got, whether man or woman. There is, of course, no more important role than that of being a mother and raising children, and you're quip that they might be damaged goods is silly, though the point is well taken. Whatever you find within yourself to become or do in the world, more power to you, and may Allah Almighty give you courage and fortitude. >> >> Abdassalam Granger >> >> >> >> At 07:57 AM 4/18/96 -0400, you wrote: >> > >> >Gee, as I read this discourse, I'm beginning to feel less and less like a >> >woman & I guess my mother was never a real woman. Or perhaps American >> >women are not real women. Or maybe, the women in my family are somehow >> >damaged goods, being that they have successfully reared their children, and >> >yet have been able to interact in the community as responsible citizens. >> > >> >Sehr >> > >> >> From tariqas-approval@europe.std.com Wed Apr 17 21:52:17 1996 >> >> Delivery-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 96 21:52:23 -0400 >> >> X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f >> >> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net >> >> X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) >> >> Mime-Version: 1.0 >> >> Content-Type> : > text/plain> ; > charset="us-ascii"> >> >> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:11:48 -0400 >> >> To: tariqas@world.std.com >> >> From: James McCaig >> >> Subject: Seclusion of women (3) >> >> Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com >> >> Reply-To: tariqas@europe.std.com >> >> Content-Length: 2746 >> >> >> >> "From the physical as well as the occult point of view, woman is more >> >> impressionable than man. The task of woman as a mother is of a greater >> >> importance than that of man on any position. Woman with her thought and >> >> feeling moulds the character of the child, and as she is susceptible to >> >> outward impressions, her impressions always have their influence on her >> >> child. During the period before motherhood very great care must be taken, >> >> for any word spoken to her reaches the depth of her being, and it re-echoes >> >> in the soul of the child. If a word made her bitter at the time or cross at >> >> a moment, it can create bitterness or crossness in the child. Especially >> >> during that period woman is more sensitive and susceptible to all >> >> impressions, beautiful or ugly. Anything striking impresses her soul >> >> deeply. A color, lightning, thunder, storm, all make impressions upon her. >> >> Conditions of life, misery or joy, all tell upon her more than on every >> >> person. Having this in consideration, the custom of seclusion has been kept >> >> in the East, and still exists among certain communities. >> >> >> >> >> >> No doubt there is another side to consider: That home and state are not >> >> two separate things. Home is the miniature of the state; and if woman >> >> performs a part equally important at home, why must she not perform an >> >> equally important part in the outward life. No doubt these ancient customs, >> >> even with their psychological importance, often make an iron bar before the >> >> progress of the generality. In the East, for the maid and mistress both, >> >> there are days set apart for rest in every month, in all different >> >> religions, among Hindus, Parsis, and Mohammedans. The life in the world is >> >> a constant battle, and a hard battle one has to fight, if one has any >> >> fineness of feeling, any decency of manner. The position of woman in this >> >> battle is worse than that of man. It greatly robs her of her womanly >> >> fineness and delicacy of sentiment. Man is more dependent upon woman than >> >> woman on man. From the first moment any child, whether boy or girl, opens >> >> his eyes in the world, he seeks the protection of woman. Woman, as his >> >> mother, sister, daughter, friend, or wife, in every form, is the source of >> >> his happiness, comfort and peace. In whatever form man may express it -- in >> >> a crude custom like the seclusion in the East or in many different ways -- >> >> to guard her against the hard knocks which fall on every soul living in this >> >> world of selfishness is the first duty of a thoughtful man. " >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington >> >> Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore >> >> United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi >> >> >> >> jmccaig@worldweb.net >> >> >> >> >> > >> > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 19 04:15:54 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09103; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 00:35:57 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA08524; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 00:18:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from soho.ios.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA08509; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 00:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (ppp-32.ts-9.nyc.idt.net [169.132.99.32]) by soho.ios.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA08209 for ; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 00:15:54 -0400 Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 00:15:54 -0400 Message-Id: <199604190415.AAA08209@soho.ios.com> X-Sender: kaleema@198.4.75.47 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: "K.Ahmad" Subject: Re: Masters and Traditions Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Bob, Rumi is often called Allah Jalla Jalalahu literal translation -God Burned Jalalahu Figurative - Burned in The Fire of God, Jalalahu The Beloved One went to the door of the Beloved and knocked. A voice asked: 'Who is there?' He answered: 'it is I.' The voice said: 'There is no room here for me and thee.' The door was shut. After a year of solitude and deprivation this man returned to the door of the Beloved. He knocked. A voice from within asked; 'Who is there?' The man said: 'It is Thou.' The door was opened for him. Rumi Epitaph of Jalaludin Rumi When we are dead, seek not our tomb in the earth, but find it in the hearts of men. Prayer of Saadi Do to me what is worthy of Thee, And not what is worthy of me. Saadi Benefit Most of humanity do not know what it is in their interest to know. They dislike what would eventually benefit them. Al-Nasafi What Looks After You Knowledge is better than wealth. You have to look after wealth; knowledge looks after you. Ali Ture devotion is for itself: not to desire heaven nor to fear hell Rabia el-Adawia What is the most elementary " " in nature called, by so many names, and within us. Rumi said, what I felt. The same things are said now, but we do not listen with our hearts'. We look to the past to site the future, we look to future to forget the past, but we forget, we live in now, and will at every moment. The past and future are always around us, as in back and front. Now look to your back, now to the front. There is someone you missed, the one in the center of it all, It is thee and Thee. With an open (mind), (heart) Kaleem From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 19 11:33:58 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11852; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 07:52:59 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id HAA14416; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 07:30:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from spike.cc.bellcore.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id HAA14412; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 07:30:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by spike.cc.bellcore.com id AA01698 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for tariqas@europe.std.com); Fri, 19 Apr 1996 07:33:58 -0400 Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 07:33:58 -0400 From: 25275-rana Message-Id: <199604191133.AA01698@spike.cc.bellcore.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: RE: Seclusion of women (3) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > > > >To state that all women should be mothers is a broad & dangerous comment, > >consider the weak & unstable for a moment. Consider personal dispositions. > >I would no more think that all women should be mothers than all men should > >be accountants! > > > > Was the term "should" really used? Certainly one should consider all of the myriad characteristics and the broad range of emotional and psychological characteristics of of the species before judging one of them, male or female. Thank God, we're all unique, and have our own set of traits and our own internal makeup. Excuse me, though, when I say that maybe your comparison between mothers and accountants doesn't quite make sense. Maybe you should have said "than all men should be fathers." Well, actually no, because many feel that the only valid role of women is as mothers, whereas men are more often defined by their roles outside the home. "What do you do?" "Oh, well I'm VP of Finance at So-and-So Bank" would be the response and not "I am the father of 5 lovely children." Perhaps if we kept in mind that one of the most venerated women alive, Mother Theresa, is not a mother before we post regarding the roles and responsibilities of women, we might be a bit more inclusive. > > >Hey, how about some talk on the dispositions of men for a moment. Too often > >all the talk is how women should behave. Let's start a thread on Moslem > >men and their roles & responsibilities. Let's see how the impotent/infertile > >men feel when they read that it is their responsibility to sire children. > >Let's see how the divorced feel when they read that they must fully maintain > >their ex-wives. > > > > It's clear to me that, as your tone suggests, you were possibly hurt by some of the things that were stated in these postings on the "role of women", and I can only apologize for anything that may have been said by me or another brother that was truly offensive. No such offense was ever intended. > Just a comment a divorce in Islam: I do not believe that alimony, as it is known here, is a part of Islamic divorce. There may be some kind of "payoff", and continual child support is certainly mandated, but I'm pretty sure that life-long alimony is not, nor should it be to my mind. Can someone else please help me on this? Am I totally wrong? > > > Abdassalam Granger > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 19 13:08:14 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29999; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 08:33:52 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA16682; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 08:10:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA16675; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 08:10:42 -0400 (EDT) From: GHADDAD@ccmail.sunysb.edu Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17628; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 08:08:19 -0400 Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by ccmail.sunysb.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #8051) id <01I3PVXG9LY89I5I3Y@ccmail.sunysb.edu> for tariqas@world.std.com; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 08:08:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 08:08:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [2] Interview w. Sh. Nazim To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: <01I3PVXG9Y769I5I3Y@ccmail.sunysb.edu> X-Vms-To: in%"tariqas@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: State University of New York at Stony Brook Stony Brook, NY G. Fouad Haddad 19-Apr-1996 08:00am EDT FROM: GHADDAD TO: Remote Addressee ( _tariqas@world.std.com ) Subject: [2] Interview w. Sh. Nazim INTERVIEW WITH SHAYKH NAZIM AL-HAQQANI cont'd Grandshaykh of the Tariqa Naqshbandiyya May God sanctify his secret This interview took place with a Swedish reporter in Lefke, Cyprus, in August 1988. [2] Q. Is it so that in Islam everybody goes to heaven? In the old Christian Church they said that if a person is good he would go to heaven and if he is bad he would go to hell. Shaykh Nazim: Hell is inside every person. Everyone has paradise and hell in themselves. It is impossible for a bad worker, for a person who does bad, to be in paradise. He created his own hell with his bad deeds and he is in it. That is then the summary of his life, to be in hell. On the other hand, good people feel refreshment everywhere. If you do something good to someone you feel refreshment, satisfaction, peace and happiness by that doing. If a person does a bad thing, his conscience punishes him and he falls into a dark darkness. Q. And after death? Shaykh Nazim: This is during life. After death that person will also be in darkness because souls are affected by bad doings... Allah Almighty is not asking to punish his servants. You know that hospitals are not there to make people suffer, but still people are suffering in all hospitals and are in miseries and in pains and are crying and shouting. If someone looks into a hospital, he would say: "This is a place of punishment." But no! In reality it is to take away the pains of the people, to take away every disturbing thing from them, to make them restful and then to tell them to go away. Many people want to go to their homes but the doctors say: "No, stay! Don't go now. You must be patient for another 10 days or one month or two months or three months or six months or one year..." Others come, stand there for a while, do something and then after one hour or half an hour or even five minutes are being told: "You may go, it is finished." Q. That is a good comparison you are making. Shaykh Nazim: Hells are not part of the divinely wisdom. It is not God who is taking revenge by punishing. He is not happy when they are punished. No! The divinely wisdom is that all this is for the sake of the improvement of mankind. To make it possible for them to reach perfection. If a person completes his perfection during his life, then there is no need for any operation in hell for him. That is why saints and prophets never go to hell, because they have reached perfection during their lives. It is completed: But imperfect people must all visit that big hospital... Q. A very nice comparison! Shaykh Nazim: ... A fire-hospital, a big fire-hospital! You know that in hospitals they put laser-fire on people and the ectricity burns people also. They are using fire in every hospital. It is terrible, a terrible fire. Is it for punishing people? Q. For helping... Shaykh Nazim: And in hell there are also fires, gigantic fires to give perfection to their souls. Because these people were very lazy here. We have been given willpower and we have been ordered to use it. Many are not using it. Willpower is the instrument to reach perfection. It has nothing to do with willpower if you take this and eat it or take this and drink it. Those are natural desires. We are not using our will by doing that. Animals have no will, but they are eating and drinking. You cannot say that animaks have willpower. No! We have been honored by the Lord Almighty Allah by being given willpower in our hands. But people never use it. If you start to use it, you will improve. Q. But, Shaykh Nazim, it is usually not possible to reach perfection during one life, is it? Shaykh Nazim: Who said that? Q. You can of course, if you have willpower... Shaykh Nazim: Who is using their willpower without reaching perfection? Q. In one life? Shaykh Nazim: Even in half a life. Not in one life, in half a life. Even one day can be enough, if you use your willpower perfectly. But people don't use it. They come as a donkey and they leave as a donkey, and if there were more than one life, they would come once more as a donkey, then the third time as a camel, the fourth time as an ape, the fifth time as a wolf, the seventh time as a fox, and so on... If you don't use your willpower you can come here 100 times and your level will still be the animal level. You will not be able to change that. It is written in the holy books that people ask to come back to this life and God says: "If you are coming back to this life and you are not using your willpower according to the commands of the Prophets, the heavenly commands, you will remain the same." Just like you will come to the hospital, cry and say: "Oh! when I leave this time I will not be drunk again." Because you know that when you are drunk you will make an accident and get a broken head, broken bones, broken legs, broken hands... So you will say: "I repent. I am very sorry. I will never drink wine again and have an accident like this." But when your illness is finished and you come out of the hospital and you don't use your willpower, you will make another accident. So willpower is important in every religion. Willpower is: if you want to drink to be able to say: "No!" or if you are hungry and your desires want to eat, to be able to say: "I am not going to eat." That is the fasting, which has been ordered to us in every religion. We must fast. Why? The Lord tests His servants to see if they are able to keep their wills or not. And people say: "Why should I fast? For what? If I am hungry I must eat, if I am thirsty I must drink." That is the same as animals are doing: when they are hungry they run to eat, when they are thirsty they run to drink. If you are able to stay hungry and if you are able not to drink when you ae thirsty, then you are controlling yourself. It is a control over your animal-side. Everyone has an animal-side. You must be the rider of your horse, but usually the horse, the ego, is riding on the rider. This is something that never changes from the beginning of time until the end. In this all religions are the same: if you are not able to control your animal-side, your title may be Muslim, Christian, Catholic, Maronite, Jesuit, Protestant, Anglican, Orthodox... and it is all useless, useless! Q. What happens to the millions of people after death who have led their lives without hardly using their willpower? Shaykh Nazim: They will go to Allah, but before they will need so many operations to be able to come into the Divine Presence. Because we have been honored. We belong to mankind. Q. Are those operations in another life on earth or do we go through different stages after death? Shaykh Nazim: As long as you are in this world your situation is alright, is safe. Thereafter we must transfer to another life. This is another period after death which continues until the Day of resurrection. It is a period which we call the life of the grave. There is a life between the day of resurrection and this life. There your animal-personality is finished, is made into dust. When your animal-personality turns into dust the soul gets refined. You put man into a grave and after some time there is dust. What is that? It is the animal-personality that has changed into dust; but the rider is still alive. During the time that your animal-personality turns into dust, you will be refined. If you are not purified enough on the Day of resurrection you will have yet another operation. Sometimes people have an operation done and after six months they must have another one to complete it. So if the operations in the graveyard are enough for you to become dust, if you are cleaned and purified, then there is no need for another operation. Then you will come out on the Day of resurrection as a pure one, a pure beautiful personality. cont'd Naqshbandi-Haqqani Foundation URL: http://www.best.com/~informe/haqqani/ [in 9 languages] Europe Mirror URL:http://www.ummah.org.uk/haqqani/ email: mateens@sybase.com, ghaddad@ccmail.sunysb.edu From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 19 13:51:59 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10108; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:36:40 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA26506; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 09:56:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA26502; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 09:56:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from eprice@localhost) by helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA18197; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 06:51:59 -0700 Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 06:51:59 -0700 (MST) From: Ellen L Price To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Masters and Traditions In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: I would like to add that he was the founding father of the Mevlevi Order. Ellen Price On Thu, 18 Apr 1996, arsalaan fay wrote: > > Dear Bob > > Your question is wonderful. Thank You. > > One can talk about sufism or do it. > > In my perception Mevlana did it and was inspired to portray in poetry > how others could follow. Something very difficult to do, but he was > sucessful enough to still be read today. > > I see interpersonal relationships is a minor theme in the Mathnawi, not > central as might be portrayed in certain modern translations. > > I look forward to more comments, or maybe I should un-subscribe and > spend the time reading Mevlana. > > Peace > Arsalaan Fay > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 19 14:02:45 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19933; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:53:34 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA27622; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:07:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA27614; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:07:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from eprice@localhost) by helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA18627; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 07:02:46 -0700 Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 07:02:45 -0700 (MST) From: Ellen L Price To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Masters and Traditions In-Reply-To: <199604190415.AAA08209@soho.ios.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Bob, To this I would like to add the following quite from Rumi on burning: "The ultimate achievement of my life is summed up in three sentences: I was raw, I matured, I was burnt out." Ellen Price On Fri, 19 Apr 1996, K.Ahmad wrote: > Dear Bob, > > Rumi is often called Allah Jalla Jalalahu > literal translation -God Burned Jalalahu > Figurative - Burned in The Fire of God, Jalalahu > > > The Beloved > > One went to the door of the Beloved and knocked. A voice asked: > 'Who is there?' > He answered: 'it is I.' > The voice said: 'There is no room here for me and thee.' > The door was shut. > After a year of solitude and deprivation this man returned to the door > of the Beloved. He knocked. > A voice from within asked; 'Who is there?' > The man said: 'It is Thou.' > The door was opened for him. > Rumi > > Epitaph of Jalaludin Rumi > > When we are dead, seek not our tomb in the earth, but find it in the hearts > of men. > > Prayer of Saadi > > Do to me what is worthy of Thee, > And not what is worthy of me. > Saadi > > Benefit > > Most of humanity do not know what it is in their interest to know. > They dislike what would eventually benefit them. > Al-Nasafi > > What Looks After You > > Knowledge is better than wealth. You have to look after wealth; knowledge > looks after you. > Ali > > Ture devotion is for itself: not to desire heaven nor to fear hell > Rabia el-Adawia > > > What is the most elementary " " in nature called, by so many names, > and within us. Rumi said, what I felt. The same things are said now, but we > do not listen with our hearts'. We look to the past to site the future, we > look to future to forget the past, but we forget, we live in now, and will > at every moment. The past and future are always around us, as in back and > front. Now look to your back, now to the front. There is someone you missed, > the one in the center of it all, It is thee and Thee. > > With an open (mind), (heart) > Kaleem > > > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 19 14:32:53 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27567; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 11:06:31 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA02297; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:32:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from weaver.weaver.guilford.k12.nc.us by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA02283; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:32:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by weaver.weaver.guilford.k12.nc.us id KAA15741; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:32:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:32:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Bob King X-Sender: bking@weaver To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Masters and Traditions In-Reply-To: <199604190415.AAA08209@soho.ios.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Sincere thanks Kaleem and Arsalaan Fay for helping me along my way re: Rumi! The one book of his poems I have is __Open Secret_, versions by John Moyne and Coleman Barks, and for now I find so much richness I just keep reading. Prior to this, poetry made no sense to me! A selection below which speaks in part to knowing and being. Again, Thanks! Bob King 674 You don't have "bad" days and "good" days. You don't sometimes feel brilliant and sometimes dumb. There's no studying, no scholarly thinking having to do with love, but there is a great deal of plotting, and secret touching, and nights you can't remember at all. Rumi From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 19 15:50:30 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14255; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 12:17:22 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA14856; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 11:50:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from weaver.weaver.guilford.k12.nc.us by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA14821; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 11:50:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by weaver.weaver.guilford.k12.nc.us id LAA16134; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 11:50:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 11:50:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Bob King X-Sender: bking@weaver To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Masters and Traditions In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 19 Apr 1996, Ellen L Price wrote: > To this I would like to add the following quote from Rumi on burning: > "The ultimate achievement of my life is summed up in three sentences: > I was raw, I matured, I was burnt out." Thanks for this, Ellen. I am currently at the end of a semester of teaching, and feeling the third part mentioned above, in a different sense of course! :) Bob King From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Apr 19 19:08:05 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29273; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 16:02:54 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA11418; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 15:08:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA11406; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 15:07:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Rxz@aol.com Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA14715 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 15:08:05 -0400 Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 15:08:05 -0400 Message-Id: <960419150804_276073269@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Seclusion of women (3) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: asalaamu alaykum Bravo!!!! Bravo to the writer of Seclusion of women(3). Yes, why not discuss the qualities that men should possess, the duties that fathers and husbands should fulfill, the role that they should aspire to. Didn't our Prophet(pbuh) do housework when he was at home, for instance? And what about single divorced muslim women who have no choice but to be out functioning in the world. Yes, this may not be the ideal norm, but we live in a world that is not ideal and many of us have very abnormal lives, not necessarily by our own choice. We all wish to live an ideal life in an ideal world, or make our lives perfect if the world isn't so great. Sometimes we just fail to reach that high goal and have to make the best of what we have. Here is where faith is so important and so is support from other muslims. Why not talk about our real lives, our real struggles, our hopes and failures? We SHOULD all be much better than we are, but we are where we are. And, on the subject of women, if we look at the early muslims, they had extraordinary lives, and not all of them stayed at home and enjoyed motherhood. Thank you. AE Holland From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 20 01:12:06 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17892; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 20:32:32 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA26325; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 20:16:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA26316; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 20:16:14 -0400 (EDT) From: GHADDAD@ccmail.sunysb.edu Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09844; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 20:12:11 -0400 Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by ccmail.sunysb.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #8051) id <01I3QL7WCMBK9I5F9F@ccmail.sunysb.edu> for tariqas@world.std.com; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 20:12:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 20:12:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Rumi on Woman's Veil To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: <01I3QL7WD2C29I5F9F@ccmail.sunysb.edu> X-Vms-To: in%"tariqas@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: State University of New York at Stony Brook Stony Brook, NY G. Fouad Haddad 19-Apr-1996 07:46pm EDT FROM: GHADDAD TO: Remote Addressee ( _tariqas@world.std.com ) Subject: Rumi on Woman's Veil Rumi on Woman's Veil Rumi compares the requirement of a woman's veiling and segregation from men to the necessity of concealing higher meanings from the gaze of the ignorant: "As the Prophet said, "Impart no wisdom to the unworthy, or you do it injustice." Imagine that you should gain a witness or a beloved and she conceals herself within your house, saying, "Display me to no one, for I belong to you!" Would it ever be fitting and permissible to take her about the bazaars and say to everyone, "Come, behold this beautiful woman!"? That beloved would never be pleased for this to happen to her, and indeed, she would become angry with you [and leave you]." >From Rumi's "Fihi ma fih" in William Chittick, "The Sufi Path of Love: The Spiritual Teachings of Rumi" p. 309. Elsewhere Rumi speaks of the evil of trying to make a thoughtless woman cover herself: "[The Prophet said,] "Man is greedy for what he is denied." The more you tell a woman to keep herself covered, the more she itches to show herself and the more other people desire to see her. There you sit, whipping up desire on both sides and thinking you are being righteous. What you are doing is actually the essence of corruption. If she has a natural disposition averse to evil deeds, she will proceed in accordance to her own pure natural disposition. Of this you may rest assured and not trouble yourself. If she is the opposite, she will go her own way, and forbidding her will actually do nothing but increase her desire." >From Rumi's "Fihi ma fih" in W.M. Thackston, Jr. trans. "Signs of the Unseen: The Discourses of Jalaluddin Rumi" p. 92. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 20 12:10:30 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28568; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 11:54:26 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA01282; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 11:36:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA01270; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 11:36:10 -0400 (EDT) From: GHADDAD@ccmail.sunysb.edu Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09206; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 11:23:36 -0400 Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu by ccmail.sunysb.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #8051) id <01I3R886LZAW9I5NE2@ccmail.sunysb.edu> for tariqas@world.std.com; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 07:10:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 07:10:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: View on finiteness of hell (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: <01I3R886M08Q9I5NE2@ccmail.sunysb.edu> X-Vms-To: IN%"tariqas@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Path: news.cc.sunysb.edu!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!ahm From: Svend White <102051.2434@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam Subject: Re: Eternal Damnation? Date: 18 Apr 1996 21:36:46 GMT Organization: CompuServe, Inc. (1-800-689-0736) Lines: 93 Approved: ahm@smi.med.pitt.edu Message-ID: <4l6cle$abh@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> References: <4kjni3$g8d@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: alpha.smi.med.pitt.edu Moderator: Ahmad Hashem Originator: ahm@alpha.smi.med.pitt.edu I've been asked to back up my assertion that it's a "historical fact" that the Sahaba believed Hell to be finite, even for disbelievers . Rather than pretend this to be my own work, I'll just quote commentary #1201 (for 11:107) of Muhammad Ali's invaluable translation of the Quran. Wasalaam. a k r a m --------------------------------- This limitation on the duration of abiding in hell--"except as thy Lord please"--is given twice in the Holy Quran, here and in 6:129, and it shows clearly that the punishment of hell is not everlasting. A comparison with the verse that follows makes it clearer. There, too, we have that those in paradise will abide there as long as the heavens and the earth endure, wexcept as thy Lord please, but the statement is immediately followed by another: "A gift never to be cut off." This shows that in fact there is no limitation upon the eternity of paradise, and the words "except as thy Lord please" have been used, in the case of paradise, only to express the unbounded power and greatness of the Divine Being and the fact that it is due to God's pleasure that they are there. In the case of hell, however, the words "except as thy Lord please" are followed by a statement which corroborates the limitation thus placed, for, FA'AAL, as an attribute of the Divine Being, indicates that He does even those things which seem impossible to others, the word being an intensive form of FAA'IIL, meaning "doer". It should be noted further that in both cases it is RABB, lit., "the Nourisher to perfection", Whose will is to be excercised. The end is in both cases the same. Man is ultimately to be brought to perfection, but this cannot be, unless those in hell are taken out of it and set on the road to spiritual progress, "thrown into the river of Life", as the hadith has it. Various sayings of the Holy Prophet corroborate the statement made above. For instance, the concluding portion of a hadith which is met with in one of the most reliable collections runs thus: "Then Allah will say: The angels and the prophets and the faithful have all in their turn interceded for the sinners, and now there remains none to intercede for them except the most Merciful of all the merciful ones. So He will take out a handful from the Fire and bring out a people WHO NEVER WORKED ANY GOOD" (Bukhari 97:24). According to this hadith, such a people are called TULAQAA AL-RAHMAAN, or "the freed ones of the Beneficient", Who excercises His mercy towards those who have done nothing to deserve it. There are also other sayings in the KANZ AL-'UMMAAL: "Surely a day will come over hell when it will be like a field of corn that has dried up after flourishing for a while"; and again: "Surely a day will come over hell when there will not be a single human being in it" (vol. vii, p. 245). There is also a saying of 'Umar on record: "Even if the dwellers in hell may be numberless as the sands of the desert, a day will surely come when they will be taken out of it" (FATH AL-BASRI FI SHARH SAHIH BUKHARI by Imam ibn Hajar Asqalani). One question, however, remains to be answered, and that is the use of the word ABAD, which is generally considered as meaning "for ever". The abiding in hell for ABAD is mentioned thrice in the Holy Quran, in 4:169, 33:65 and 72:23. It is, however, stated by all lexicologists that ABAD signifies "a long time" (Lane), being synonymous with DAHR TAWIL or "a long time" (ibn Hisham), as also "time without end" (Murtada). It is due to its signifcance as " a long time" that it has a plural form AABAAD, which it could not have if "eternity" were its only significance. The Quran makes this use of the word clear by stating in 78:23 that the disbelievers will remain in hell for AHQAAB, i.e. "long ages", the word being the plural of HUGBAH, which "means "seventy" or "eighty" years. ------------- [From Muhammad Ali's THE RELIGION OF ISLAM, page 234] [...] Similar sayings are reported from many other Companions such as Ibn 'Umar, Jabir, Abu Sa'id, Abu Hurairah, etc., and also from the learned men of the next generation, the Taabi'een (ibn Hisham). And later Imams, such as Ibn 'Arabi, Ibn Taimiyah, Ibn Qayyim, and many others have held similar views (ibid.). [...] The truth of this has already been established from the Quran, but a tradition also may be quoted here which expressly speaks of the inmates of the fire as being set on the road to the higher life: "Then will Allah say, Bring out (of the fire) every one in whose heart there is faith or goodness to the extent of a mustard seed, so they will be taken out having become quite black; then they will be thrown into the river of life and they will grow as grows a seed by the side of the river" (Bukhari 2:15). This report is conclusive as to the remedial nature of Hell and establishes beyond a doubt that all men will ultimately be set on the way to the higher life." -- "Hated by Fools, and Fools to Hate./Be that ever my Motto and my Fate." ---Swift From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 20 18:32:25 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03402; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 14:46:00 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA18081; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 14:31:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA18077; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 14:31:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA10123; Sun, 21 Apr 1996 04:32:26 +1000 (EST) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 04:32:25 +1000 (EST) From: Dien Alfred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: View on finiteness of hell (fwd) In-Reply-To: <01I3R886M08Q9I5NE2@ccmail.sunysb.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum, I found it interesting reading the view on the finiteness of hell. To my understanding, some Muslims consider hell will be finite for some who go there, but eternal for others. Other Muslims consider hell will be finite for all who go there - no one will go there eternally. Another Muslim who supports this latter viewpoint is Muhammad Asad, in his translation/commentary on the Qur'an. (I read it in one of his comments on one of the verses, but I am not sure which verse it was.) Actually, this latter view (that hell is not eternal for anyone) I find similar to what I have read about the Buddhist view of karma.... those who do evil, the evil will return to them, and they will suffer the natural effects of their evil deeds. However, in the end, everyone will (eventually) realize their Buddha-nature and be saved.... (something like that, someone please correct me if I have this wrong). :) The Buddhist view and the view of some Muslims that hell is not eternal for anyone seem to me, in essence, to be equivalent. Also, hell need not be in the "after-life," hell can also exist here on earth, within yourself. In one of the recent interviews posted here of Shaykh Nazim al-Qubrusi, he alludes to this.... I have also read of this spoken about by other Sufis. I know of it too, from personal experience - I used to have a problem with clinical depression, which was literally a living hell. Alhamdulillah, Allah saved me from it, though I burned in that hell for a few years. Peace, Farid ud-Dien Rice From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 20 20:00:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03000; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 16:18:05 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA23515; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 16:00:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from comm.amtsgi.bc.ca by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA23464; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 15:59:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Savary.islandnet.com by comm.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0uAip7-000VsmC; Sat, 20 Apr 96 13:00 PDT Message-Id: Date: Sat, 20 Apr 96 13:00 PDT X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: Re: View on finiteness of hell (fwd) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > >Assalamu alaikum, > >I found it interesting reading the view on the finiteness of >hell. If hell and purification are the same than it would appear that hell is attitudinal. I understand hell to be a metaphor used via the oil deposits in and around Iraq. What sems more relavant than the masculine pith forks and brimstone of hell and the virgins and rivers of honey of heaven is the most direct path to Allah. Here the geography shifts instead of the exoteric light of the east which comes from the day and the night which arives in the west as the sun supposedly sets one might look north and find the black light of the aurella bolis (sp). Its just that Jacob saw heaven and hell as the same place one was a place where no one ate and the other was a place where it was the joyful job of one pilgram to feed the other.Your Brother. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Apr 20 20:14:54 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08606; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 16:34:08 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA24405; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 16:15:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA24398; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 16:15:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hermes.algonet.se by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01785; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 16:14:55 -0400 Received: from (durrani@bengt.algonet.se [193.12.207.211]) by hermes.algonet.se (8.7.4/hdw.1.0) with SMTP id WAA21596 for ; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 22:14:54 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 22:14:54 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199604202014.WAA21596@hermes.algonet.se> X-Sender: durrani@mail.algonet.se (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: durrani@algonet.se (Pyar Khan Durrani) X-Mailer: Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A Peace be upon you. Stockholm 20/4-96 I joined you today so I better introduce myself... My name is Pyar Khan Durrani, a young student of swedish/pakistani background living here in Stockholm. I am a muslim interested in the realm of tasawwuf, although I was brought up as a pentacostal christian ( which is my dear mothers belief). Five years ago ( I'm 24) I encountered the blessed path of islam through the gate of tasawwuf. Brought up with love for Isa/Jesus I now realize that being a muslim is really to take up the mantel of the prophets (may God bless them all) and to try to walk in their footsteps, and that I therefore come much closer to the Reality that the prophets directed us to. During these five years of being a muslim, ones islamic comprehension changes alot (which is natural), to the positive i hope, but my heart has always been warm for the gentleness of the mutasawwif. It is therefore my sincere wish that this discussion group will make me come to know some fellow travellers on the way Home. Home sweet home. Yes, we are all in exile, longing home. Yours sincerely, your brother Pyar Khan Durrani Stockholm durrani@algonet.se From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 21 00:53:27 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28172; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 21:06:45 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA15062; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 20:53:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from eve.frugal.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA15054; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 20:53:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ip-219.frugal.com (ip-219.frugal.com [204.236.26.219]) by eve.frugal.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA17759 for ; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 16:53:27 -0800 Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 16:53:27 -0800 Message-Id: <199604210053.QAA17759@eve.frugal.com> X-Sender: dunya@frugal.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: dunya@frugal.com (Gary Montgomery) Subject: Contacting Dr. Carlos Warter Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalaam Aleikum, Does anyone on Tariqas know how to get in contact with Dr Carlos Warters (he was one of the presenters at the Sufism Symposium). I was told he was a Sheikh that lives somewhere in New Mexico. I would appreciate any help. Thank you, Gary From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 21 03:21:39 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17305; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 23:37:36 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA29132; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 23:25:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from bbs.cruzio.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA29120; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 23:25:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pine196.cruzio.com by bbs.cruzio.com id aa10017; 20 Apr 96 20:24 PDT X-Sender: dances@mail.cruzio.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 20:21:39 -0700 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: james hallam Subject: Re: comment on turning Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: salaam aleikum my posting inadvertantly seemed to have been a third force to provoke discussion on the list about women,men and sufism. My post was done with little thought on how it might effect others. For this I apologize. I had acted upon a gut reaction to the idea that women are weak in certain senses such as the post that was read. Perhaps this long held idea is connected with the shedding of blood by women. I know many martyrs such as Hallaj ,jesus shed their blood for others; I guess the ultimate sacrifice. "No greater love has a man for a friend that he lay down his life" Probably stupid for me to connect these two blood-letting circumstances. Certainly when I've had blood drawn I get dizzy;) my word "baloney" which had been uttered quite unconsciously certainly has connotations such as baloney usually comes from pork. Thank you considerate repostings re my rude post. Khidr was known to have outwordly done what was considered inconceivable things but least His actions were conscious of Allah's purpose. My only hope is that I am being used as a fool for God to achieve His holy Aims With Respect james enrolled in a prepatory course in Sufism From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 21 03:35:52 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21143; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 23:54:33 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA02117; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 23:38:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA02107; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 23:38:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16882; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 23:35:52 -0400 Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 23:35:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: address (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 02:03:57 -0400 (EDT) From:tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from ["Habit guest email acct." ] >From habib@world.std.com Wed Apr 17 02:03:56 1996 Return-Path: Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id CAA22990; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 02:03:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00266; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 02:01:48 -0400 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with UUCP id LAA16006; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 11:32:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from guest@localhost) by frank.habit.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id LAA01218; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 11:31:50 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 11:31:50 -0700 From: "Habit guest email acct." Subject: address To: wh@seas.upenn.edu, tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Someone asked about how to reach Daniel Muzaffer Donnell here yesterday. I saw him at the IAS Sufi Symposium in San Francisco two weeks ago. He said he had given up all his titles months ago, and he is still on the Sufi path, and he gave up e-mail in December, and he is working on his books about the Mevlevi and Chishti Sufis. He said non-profit organizations bore him to death, and he is really interested in "spiritual transformation through tariqa and silsila". I never thought about this but he would not say anything more. It was very late at night, and he was about to go out the hotel door with a big bag of food for the homeless in the hotel neighborhood. The hotel was near a kind of a rough area. He gave me his address, but he would not give me his telephone number, Daniel Muzaffer Donnell at Post Office Box 1721, Portland, Oregon, 97207. He sang and played music for a few minutes for other people in two time slots at the Symposium, and I did not know it, but he is also a gifted musician. I check these groups every so often at a guest site, and I was kinda amazed at the drop in content lately, even after the symposium. Thanks. Latifa From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 21 04:40:22 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14461; Sun, 21 Apr 1996 00:54:04 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA09231; Sun, 21 Apr 1996 00:43:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA09227; Sun, 21 Apr 1996 00:43:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10931; Sun, 21 Apr 1996 00:40:23 -0400 Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 00:40:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: Masters and Traditions (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:20:20 -0400 (EDT) From:tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [Jim Norton ] >From habib@world.std.com Thu Apr 18 11:20:18 1996 Return-Path: Received: from mhub0.tc.umn.edu by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA27607; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:20:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by mhub0.tc.umn.edu; Thu, 18 Apr 96 10:20:13 -0500 Received: from dialup-5-84.gw.umn.edu by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Thu, 18 Apr 96 10:20:04 -0500 Message-ID: <31765D5C.EFF@ast1.spa.umn.edu> Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 10:18:52 -0500 From: Jim Norton Organization: Shamsuddin Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@europe.std.com Subject: Re: Masters and Traditions References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peace and Blessings, Bob: I think that Rumi IS a Mevlevi (the order of Sufis which he really started). I too love his poetry and stories. Colman Barks does such poetic translations!!! If you are on the Web try for a new Rumi poem every day. I hope this helps Love and light, Shamsuddin Jim Norton Bob King wrote: > > Greetings! > > I have a question which is elementary but important to me! Can anyone > help me by saying what kind of Sufism Rumi fits into? > > For lack of a better phrase, I fell in love with Rumi's poetry. > Yet, my (unavoidably Western) read of these poems is that they are about > the spiritual practice of relationships, particularly love relationships. > > Ironically you know! -- the recent discussion about the fine points of > separating or not separating the sexes seems to bear little if any > relationship to Rumi's placement of love relationship in the very center > of meaningful spiritual life and practice (again, this is my read of > course!). In other words Rumi seems to merge actual and spiritual. I > don't sense any separation whatsoever, in his poems anyway! > > As a beginning learner about Sufism, so far it seems to me that the > relationship between Rumi and Sufism is somewhat curious, like the > relationship between Christ and Christianity in some ways! Is there > anything in this? Do great masters talk mainly about specific love, and > then do we mainly talk about abstract doctrine in their names? I don't > mean to be making an exact parallel or an oversimplification here. I'm > just trying to understand and get to the next place, and these are the > terms I am able to use at this point in order to do that! > > Again apologies for the elementary nature of my question, but if Rumi > were alive today what kind of Sufi would he be? I think that's > the kind I'm looking for! Thanks. In the spirit of love and learning. . . > > Bob From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Apr 21 14:43:54 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06697; Sun, 21 Apr 1996 10:57:27 -0400 Received: by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA24962; Sun, 21 Apr 1996 10:45:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA24958; Sun, 21 Apr 1996 10:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03707; Sun, 21 Apr 1996 10:43:54 -0400 Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 10:43:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: Masters and Traditions (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 17:05:34 -0400 (EDT) From:tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [Shamsuddin Jim Norton ] >From habib@world.std.com Thu Apr 18 17:05:32 1996 Return-Path: Received: from gonzo.sci.mus.mn.us by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA11148; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 17:05:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.9.147.13 (cc2q630d.sci.mus.mn.us [206.9.147.13]) by gonzo.sci.mus.mn.us (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA12862 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 16:09:04 -0500 Message-ID: <3176AEAF.BA0@ast1.spa.umn.edu> Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 16:05:51 -0500 From: Shamsuddin Jim Norton Reply-To: norton@ast1.spa.umn.edu Organization: Shamsuddin Development, Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@europe.std.com Subject: Re: Masters and Traditions References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Arsalaan, I have started a Mevlana Jelauddin Rumi home page on the WWW. It includes references to Rumi sources and other interestin Sufi resources on the Web. My desire has been to find publications like the Mathnawi which last I checked was out of print. Any resources you have found I would be glad to add to my web site. Just email me at: norton@ast1.spa.umn.edu :)or add your comments to my guest book on Shamsuddin's Homestead in the Internet Wilderness. Hope the interest in Rumi takes off world wide. His is a presence we need to revive as we struggle to enter the 'new age' gracefully. Hope to hear from you soon. Grace & Light, Shamsuddin Jim Norton Shamsuddin Development, Ltd. A Division of The Global New Age Net (c) 1996