From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Wed Aug 28 17:49:41 1996 Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 20:04:05 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #112 tariqas-digest Wednesday, 28 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 112 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fred Rice Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:24:19 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: Friend of Allah? (fwd) Assalamu alaikum, On Wed, 28 Aug 1996, maarof wrote: > I'm not sure what is meant by "inner experience". The sufis use the > terms reflection, mirror etc. to describe their experience, vision > or the arabic term, kashaf. However, the main argument against kashaf > is that it is an individual experience, and the experience are different > from person to person. It seems to me the type of experience does not change so much, otherwise all this talk of different "stages" in Sufi literature would be useless, since it would only be valid for one person - the author of the book. Clearly, it is understood to be generally applicable,Allah knows best. > There has also been mentioned in this list how Tasawwuf is a proof > God's existence. IMO, Tasawwuf does not offer proof but the KNOWLEDGE > OF GOD. I think we must distinguish between a logical proof and "proof" by experience. I am talking about the latter, not the former, which is in line with what the Sufis of the past I am aware of have said (eg. Shamsuddin Tabrizi's reply to those who try to "prove" God using logic, which I agree is ridiculous.) > I think this is the position of sufi masters of the past. > Ghazzali said this "knowledge" is the highest form of knowledge, > and my speculation is when one has this knowledge, this world > (including all the questions posed by man) becomes irrelevant. I agree. Wassalam, Fariduddien Rice ------------------------------ From: pathway@dnet.net (John Womack) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 23:16:46 -0500 Subject: Re: A-theism If you study long enough, and hard enough, and learn the right things, and get enough degrees and can pronounce the right words, and do enough practices and prayers, and have the right experiences, and can get and spend enough money, eventuallly you can prove that the finger points! But if the moon doesn't make your heart sing, can you prove that you exist? John. ------------------------------ From: Michael Roland Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 21:24:33 -0700 Subject: Re: Sufi from Pakistan Bismillahirrahmanirrahim. At 10:48 PM 8/25/96, you wrote: >I have been raised in Islam, but could'nt be satisfied of >what i was taught... there have been several reasons for that. When i grew >older i turned away from Islam, seeking 'spiritual' knowledge in >meditation and yoga. Recently i learned about the sufi people and found >their path and wisdom to be very similar to the one taught by the famous >yoga teacher Paramahansa Yogananda. > >Hoping to learn more - with heart and mind. > Welcome to Sufism, dear brother. >Do you know if there are God-realized teachers in Pakistan? >(I guess there are, but where?......) > A friend of mine went to Pakistan last year, and met a Great Sufi Master there. His name is Abu Anees Muhammad Barkat Ali, a humble old sheykh around 80 years old. He lives in a small house in Darul Ehsan, Faisalabad. People call him Babaji (A respected father?). He also wrote some books about Sufism, published by Darul Ehsan Publications I believe his Sufi Order is Chisti. If you want to contact him, just send a snail-mail to Darul Ehsan Publications at this address: Sufi Barakat Ali DAR-UL-EHSAN PUBLICATIONS Al Maqam-un-Najjaf As Sahhaf Al Maqbool-ul-Mustafein Dar-ul-Ehsan Faisalabad PAKISTAN But snail-mail service is very unreliable there, I'm afraid. I hope this information will help. May God bless you and show us His Righteous Path. Wassalamu'alaykum, Michael Roland ************************************** Address: Wijaya Grand Center C-3 Lantai 3. Jl. Wijaya 2 Kebayoran Baru Jakarta INDONESIA 12160 Phone.(62-21) - 7234676, 7205622 Fax. (62-21) - 8649347 E-mail: 1.pakmuh@geocities.com 2.barzakh@idola.net.id Homepage of my organization (Barzakh Foundation): http://www.yellowpages.co.id/life/barzakh/ Visit also my Sufi teacher at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5739/ ------------------------------ From: woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 02:04:05 EDT Subject: Re: A-theism Hi John! [snip..] >But if the moon doesn't make your heart sing, can you prove that you exist? The moon DOES make my heart sing... and still i cannot prove that i exist! :) ('course i have no desire to prove anything... i'd rather spend time looking at the moon! :) love & peace, carol ------------------------------ From: Lilyan Kay Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 00:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Friend of Allah? (fwd) On Wed, 28 Aug 1996, Fred Rice wrote: > > I think we must distinguish between a logical proof and "proof" by > experience. I am talking about the latter, not the former, which is in > line with what the Sufis of the past I am aware of have said (eg. > Shamsuddin Tabrizi's reply to those who try to "prove" God using logic, > which I agree is ridiculous.) asalaam-u-aleikum Could you please post this reply? I am not familiar with it. Lily ------------------------------ From: "Morteza elmolhoda" Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 18:20:48 EET Subject: ***Sufism in the West ? **** Asslaamu alaikum va rahmatullah va barakaatuh How did the Sufism enter the west? Which tariqa was the first and when was it introduced to the west and by whom? What is the present situation of the Sufism in the west? What is the most popular Sufi order in the west at the present time? I invite the members of the tariqas mailing list to take part in answering these questions. I will personally appreciate very much if some literature regarding the above-mentioned questions be introduced as well. Many thanks S. M. Alamolhoda elmolhoda@elo.helsinki.fi __________________________________________ Morteza Elmolhoda elmolhoda@elo.helsinki.fi ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 06:30:29 -0700 Subject: RUMI 844 IF YOU DISTANCE YOURSELF only for an hour from your endless thoughts what do you think will happen if you let yourself sink just like a fish into the ocean of our love what do you think will happen you are merely a piece of straw and we are that eternal amber if you leap forth from your lowly house to fuse with the amber what do you think will happen a hundred times you've promised yourself to depart from self-claim to be humble as earth only for once if you keep your word what do you think will happen you're a precious hidden diamond sunken in the mud if you wash away all that impurity from your gorgeous face what do you think will happen if you abandon for a little while your ego and greed tear down your shield rise with a quest to unite with the divine what do you think will happen ghazal number 844, translated April 19, 1992, by Nader Khalili. tanzen ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 07:03:31 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: take ten] Received: from nina.kolumbus.fi (pp.kolumbus.fi) by diamond.sierra.net with SMTP id AA07752 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 27 Aug 1996 22:51:15 -0700 Received: from thomce.pp.kolumbus.fi (thomce.pp.kolumbus.fi [193.229.5.34]) by nina.kolumbus.fi (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA10247 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 1996 08:47:40 +0300 (EET DST) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 08:47:40 +0300 (EET DST) Message-Id: <199608280547.IAA10247@nina.kolumbus.fi> X-Sender: thomce@mail.kolumbus.fi X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: frank@sierra.net From: thomas mcelwain Subject: take ten Tanzen! Flame of my heart! Many thanks for ten. By the way, I somehow feel that I owe the members of the Tariqas list an apology for my behavior. If you think the following would do, please forward it to them. Having had some time to concentrate since leaving Tariqas list, I hang my head in shame. I doff my cap and bells. I bow in abject apology. I sit in dust and ashes. I was accused of being discourteous for saying that I am God. What is pointing at someone's open fly in public in comparison to what I have done? What is exposing a lady's run, the dandruff on a gentleman's shoulder? I blatantly exposed fear of unity with God, exultingly, without the slightest chagrin. Discourteous? It was despicable and dastardly. I am in an eternal debt of gratitude to the members of Tariqas for putting up with my wild claims and never accusing me of being more than discourteous, an impostor, a poser, and deranged. Surely opening the fear of unity with God deserves much greater censure, even a crucifixion, as Al-Hallaj would so willingly tell us, if his crucifixion had only lasted till now, as he wished. I withdraw, humbly and chastened, all claim to be God. I am not God, definitely and irreversably not God. I am not even a dog (ah, the noble creature!). I am not even a flea on a dog's back. I am a wombley. What is a wombley, you ask? Or perhaps you don't. The way the world really works is like this. It was created for the wombleys, from the human point of view a microscopic organism. They are immortal and inherently good. They naturally inhabit the decaying flesh of human beings, but can survive in other habitats as well. They survive any amount of radioactivity and are not affected by whether or not there is an ozone layer. When the human body, which was created for their nourishment, becomes ripe and falls after about seventy years or so, they take over happily. The tragedy of existence and threat to creation is not famine, war, flooding, earthquakes, loss of ozone layers or atomic holocaust. Human beings often ask why God, who is supposed to be omnipotent, permits such horrible things to happen. But surely God in goodness permits nothing to disturb the comfort of the wombleys, and that is what is significant. Catastrophe, pride, ambition, oppression, cruelty, lustful manipulation are a mere breeze through the branches of the tree of life, bearing its harvest of human fruit. The Holocaust was, on the other hand, a horrible waste. The real threat to creation is the growing practice of cremation and the disgusting habit of embalming. It robs the wombleys of their due and makes human existence meaningless. Yours, sincerely remorseful, but looking forward to the future state, Wombley Haydar, minute, microscopic, invisible to the naked eye. ------------------------------ From: ASHA101@aol.com Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 11:19:25 -0400 Subject: Re: ***Sufism in the West ? **** >>>How did the Sufism enter the west?<<< through the heart >>> Which tariqa was the first and when was it introduced to the west and by whom?<<< What is the present situation of the Sufism in the west? What is the most popular Sufi order in the west at the present time?<<< What is the reason these questions are being asked? Are you writing an academic paper for school? - - Asha ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:09:53 -0700 Subject: Re: ***Sufism in the West ? **** ASHA101@aol.com wrote: > > >>>How did the Sufism enter the west?<<< > through the heart > - Asha Yes, no doubt that the native americans were the first to bring it! :-) Every nation has it's prophet, every prophet is a friend of allah (swt). Every friend is a Sufi. The question is a bit like asking "How did air enter the west?" But I am just teasing because I know what kind of answer is wanted and I don't have it. I'm sure that somebody will give you a straight answer pretty soon. Cheers, - -- Michael J. Moore ------------------------------ From: Joshi Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 00:35:38 +0800 Subject: Limits as salaamu 'alaikum :Could you charm a snake bigger than this? ...I will show you one that is bigger and far more venemous, and if you can take hold of it you are a real sage. I mean your [lower self] which is between the two sides of your body; it s poison is more deadly than a snake's and if you can take hold of it and do what you please with it, you are as I have said, a sage indeed." [Martin LIngs, --A Sufi Saint of the 20th Century.] "If I should will something that my Lord does not will for me, I should then be guitly of unbelief."-- Rabi'a al Adawiyya. O God, You called, and we were slow. Alas! alas! what we did we did in poor judgement. ------------------------------ From: Joshi Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 00:35:36 +0800 Subject: Rumi:-) as salaamu 'alaikum The "sword of religion" is he who enters combat for religion's sake and whose efforts are totally for God. He discerns correct from incorrect and truth from falsehood. But, he first struggles with himself and rectifies his own character traits. As the prophet[saw] said: "Begin with your own self!" Wretched humanity! Not knowing his own self, man has come from a high estate and fallen into lowliness! Mount upon Love and think not about the way! For the horse of Love is very sure footed. wasalaam. in a pensive mood, Imaan "If I should will something that my Lord does not will for me, I should then be guitly of unbelief."-- Rabi'a al Adawiyya. O God, You called, and we were slow. Alas! alas! what we did we did in poor judgement. ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:47:23 -0700 Subject: Re: A-theism Fred Rice wrote: > > Assalamu alaikum, > > Thanks for playing "devil's advocate".... let's see now... Thanks for countering so gracefully! > > > > > Well "just like" may be a little misleading. Idres Shah spent a whole > > book making this point in "Learning How to Learn". > > I haven't read that book, and I have come to my own opinions, of course. > :) I don't know if Idries Shah knows much about scientific research?? I > think that it is a very true analogy, though the difference is they are > investigating different realms. OH! YOU must read it then. Being a Sufi and not reading "Learning How to Learn" is a bit like being a physicist and never having seen the periodic table of elements! (IMHO) > > I know I am not the only one who uses these kinds of comparisons - John > Neatrour, who sometimes posts on alt.zen and is a Zen priest of the Soto > Zen school, also has done physics research (I've forgotten which field > now). I've seen him argue very effectively against atheists who _think_ > they are being "scientific," but in reality don't know how scientific > research works. These atheists were arguing against all religions, and > John Neatrour trounced them, IMHO, because the atheists simply didn't > know what they were talking about when it came to scientific research, > and John Neatrour did. Ahhhh. Nothing like a good well deserved trouncing to break up the stagnation and make the blood circulate again! Can I go next? Oh beloved Geisha, trounce me 'neath your feet. > > I noticed in the book "Love is the Wine," Shaykh Muzaffer Ozak says many > people are really "believers," and it is shown in their actions, but they > don't even know it themselves... allahu `alam (God knows best). al hamdu lialah > > Wassalam, > > Fariduddien Rice - -- wa akaykum as-salam Michael J. Moore ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:49:26 +0100 Subject: The Ninety Nine Beautiful Names Some people have books about these names, which I don't (the ninety nine names of God), and I sure would love it if one name a week, at least could be put on the tariqa, and explained, also with phonetic pronunciation. Or if some someone could e-mail me privately, about such names. I would love this. Kaffea Lalla. ------------------------------ From: pathway@dnet.net (John Womack) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 14:47:18 -0500 Subject: Re: A-theism >Hi John! > >[snip..] >>But if the moon doesn't make your heart sing, can you prove that you >exist? > >The moon DOES make my heart sing... and still i cannot prove that i >exist! :) >('course i have no desire to prove anything... i'd rather spend time >looking at the >moon! :) > >love & peace, > carol Well now Carol, as Alan Watts might say: "Oh, come on Shiva - get off it!, You are so wonderful!!" I know you exist, even thought I've never seen you, and probably never will, you may not even have a physical body! - so what? I've felt your winds flow through my skies, and I recognize the current. John. ------------------------------ From: Michael Roland Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 11:39:29 -0700 Subject: Correction to: Sufi from Pakistan || || | || o_,_7 _|| . _o_7 _|| 4_|_|| o_w_, ( : / (_) / ( . (Bismillahirrahmanirrahim) Assalamu'alaykum, Dear ones, I want to appologize to everyone because my last posting about Sufi from Pakistan is NOT accurate. I checked the story about Barakat Ali to my friend, and he told me that actually he met Barakat Ali at 1992, not 1995. And another friend from tariqas also informed me that Barakat Ali had PASSED AWAY at 1993. May Allah bless this lovely person and give a good place for him in the Heaven. I don't know why but I just love this person very much just by hearing stories about him and by reading his books. I also believe he was a Great Sufi Master. Please forgive me for my mistake. Wassalamu'alaykum Michael Roland ------------------------------ From: Jawad Qureshi Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 14:29:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: The Ninety Nine Beautiful Names On Wed, 28 Aug 1996, Jacquie Weller wrote: > Some people have books about these names, which I don't (the ninety nine > names of God), and I sure would love it if one name a week, at least could > be put on the tariqa, and explained, also with phonetic pronunciation. Or if > some someone could e-mail me privately, about such names. I would love this. > Kaffea Lalla. > This is a beautiful idea. There are quite a few texts on this, as was mentioned. The most authoritative, the ones that have really firmly asserted a correct understanding of these name - which are the keys to existence - was a text written by Hujjat al-Islam, Imam al-Ghazali - may Allah be well pleased with him. I know that it is translated - I have a copy! - and I really hope someone does this. I would, but I am TOOO busy! :> Also, there is another text written by a Jerrahi Shaykh. I have this one also. It's not as deep as Imam al-Ghazali's, but it is a treasure in and of itself. Lastly, there are various treatises writen by Ustad Bediuzzaman Said Nursi - may Allah be pleased with him! - that really open the secrets of these names in a straight forward manner, making them easy for all to understand and appreciate. I think that this would be an excellent idea indeed, and I really hope that someone takes this up!!! Wa salam, Jawad. ____________________ "The Enduring One! You are the Enduring One!" The most helpless slave of al-Rahman al-Ghufoor al-Wudood: Jawad Anwar ibn Muhammad Anwar al-Qureshi ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 04:20:29 -0700 Subject: Re: ***Sufism in the West ? **** Morteza elmolhoda wrote: > > Asslaamu alaikum va rahmatullah va barakaatuh > > How did the Sufism enter the west? Which tariqa was the first > and when was it introduced to the west and by whom? > What is the present situation of the Sufism in the west? > What is the most popular Sufi order in the west at the present time? > I invite the members of the tariqas mailing list to take part in > answering these questions. I will personally appreciate very much if > some literature regarding the above-mentioned questions be introduced > as well. > > Many thanks > S. M. Alamolhoda > elmolhoda@elo.helsinki.fi > > __________________________________________ > Morteza Elmolhoda > elmolhoda@elo.helsinki.fi Assalamualaikum my friend, I believe there's two schools of sufism -- the western and the eastern school. If we consider Andalusia (Spain) as part of the West, then sufism is part of the Western world. Ibn Arabi is one of the leading figure in this "western school". In sufism (which can be defined as path to God) then Christianity can be considered as the earliest form of sufism to reach Europe/West. The message of love brought by Jesus (as) is the heart of sufism, and sometimes I wonder whether is this meaning of the verse in al-Quran about the closenes of Christians and Muslims. Then there's also the Chisti Order of The West founded by Hazrat Inayat Khan. I'm sure there are many in this list which can explain this part better. with best wishes maarof ------------------------------ From: woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 16:55:47 EDT Subject: Re: A-theism >>The moon DOES make my heart sing... and still i cannot prove that i >>exist! :) >>('course i have no desire to prove anything... i'd rather spend time >>looking at the >>moon! :) >Well now Carol, as Alan Watts might say: "Oh, come on Shiva - get off >it!, >You are so wonderful!!" I know you exist, even thought I've never >seen >you, and probably never will, you may not even have a physical body! - >so >what? I've felt your winds flow through my skies, and I recognize the >current. John. <> i never said i don't know that i exist! 'proof' is something /else/ though... :) <> So be it. :) fullmoon tonight ... see ya there? :) love, yondanoota ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:01:23 +0800 Subject: Re: Friend of Allah? (fwd) On Tue, 27 Aug 1996, Tanzen wrote: >maarof wrote: > >> Tanzen wrote: >> >> (...) >> >> >One point we might could discuss: "inner experience of Tasawwuf is >> >stronger evidence than what can be achieved through unreliable sense >> >perceptions." >> >> I'm not sure what is meant by "inner experience". > >It's the knowing that comes from experience gained through certain >practices. Understanding is intellectual, knowing is intuitive. >Knowledge comes from "on high" through experience of all the senses, >flooded from within and from without... there is no real knowledge other >than from this way. Of course others may believe other than this. OK, I agree. >> The sufis use the >> terms reflection, mirror etc. to describe their experience, vision >> or the arabic term, kashaf. However, the main argument against kashaf >> is that it is an individual experience, and the experience are different >> from person to person. > >It seems that if certain practices are performed each individual has the >identical experience, at least to the extent words can be used to >compare "notes". There were reported cases of individuals with kashaf ability (sufi sheikhs) experiencing the same event. Please refer to Haqqani homepage, about Sheikh Nazim and his friend witnessing a group of Abdals (men/women with purified souls) circumabulating above the Kaaba. I have looked at pictures and live TV transmission of Kaaba during Haj season but didn't see any people floating above the Kaaba. The interesting part in Sheikh Nazim account of the event, is that he didn't notice the Abdals, until his friend pointed the event above them. One possibility is that, the experience is only shared when the other person "transmit" the experience to Sheikh Nazim. But this "experience" is different from "the experience of Knowledge of God", which in sufi literature, the term used such as ecstacy, annihilation or fana. The most celebrated case was that of Hallaj with his famous proclamation "I am the Truth". Although some argued that this is the highest state of the experience of knowledge, there are also other sufis, especially those ranked as mujtahids such as Ghazzali and Sirhindi, who was said to have achieved a higher level of experience. Even these two admit that the "experience" or "status" of Muhammad (saw) is much higher, and acknowledge Muhammad's position as the teacher. This is my explanation why I said the sufi experience (of the knowledge) of God/One is diferrent individually. Although we can find similar accounts of fana/ecstacy/annihilation but the "knowledge" is different. It's like Newton and Einstein experiencing the joy of "gravity"... the joy is the same, but the knowledge experience of both men are different. >> In Islam, kashaf can be true or wrong, based >> on how the experience compared with Sharia (Quran and Sunnah) > >My belief is that Mohammad became a sufi just to get the Knowledge of >God through certain practices that have been used (called by some The >Adamic Crack) since the beginning of human self-consciousness. Our beliefs are different here. The shahadah (There is no god but God, Muhammad is His messenger) is the start and the end of the journey (in Tasawwuf). I look at Tasawwuf as a journey/path toward (the knowledge) of God. Muhammad is His messenger who light or showed that path/way. On a journey, we start with a map. But only when we are at our destination that we know better about the map. I certainly talked to much from a few things I read. But I really like to know the term "Adamic Crack". I have no idea what it is. >(...) >al-Hamdu'lillah > >Peace and love, > >tanzen > Salam maarof ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #112 *****************************