From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Mon Sep 2 08:15:52 1996 Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 18:35:04 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #114 tariqas-digest Friday, 30 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 114 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joshi Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:18:25 +0800 Subject: Limits as salaamu 'alaikum from " And the Sky is not the Limit" by sr Amatullah Armstrong " The sufi is the 'son of the moment'---he will not desire to be 'before' or 'after' or to enjot that which is in fact outside the divine 'now'-- that irreplaceable instant in which we belong concretely to God and which is indeed the only instant when we can in fact want to belong to Him." [Frithjof Schuon--Understanding Islam] [ this is like me, I guess, in that I am still searching, still shaky and uncertain, but in some ways, unable to leave this which I have been started upon]: "...the believer of high aspiration, his soul by its nature strains yearningly upwards towards what lies beyond these conditions that surround us, in the hope that he may chance upon some spiritual perfume or holy breath of inspiration which has strayed from the next world and which will be as a lamp in his hand to light him upon his path. God says, "Whoso striveth after Us, verily we shall lead them upon Our paths."[29:69] and indeed, the true believer looks unceasingly for one who will take him to God, or at the very least, he looks for the spiritual gifts which lie hidden within him, that is, for the primordial nature which he has lost sight of and in virtue of which he is human." [Shaykh Ahmad al Alawi, in A sufi saint of the 20th century by Martin Lings] wasalaam. "If I should will something that my Lord does not will for me, I should then be guitly of unbelief."-- Rabi'a al Adawiyya. O God, You called, and we were slow. Alas! alas! what we did we did in poor judgement. ------------------------------ From: Joshi Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:18:28 +0800 Subject: Re: Atheism/Existence of God Assalaamu 'alaikum wa Rahmatullahe wa Barakatu Alhamdulillah, yesterday, I had a wonderful 1.5 hour class on Tauhid, a portion of which was spent on the consideration of whether Man, and everything we see around us, for that matter, came about by chance[ as Science and the atheists claim] or by the will and power of a higher being. Mash'Allah, it was a truly moving experience to learn from the Ustad. I would like to share a portion of that knowledge with you, if you will allow me, Insh'Allah. The atheist says that everything happened by chance; the earth and the universe came into being over eons by chance, as did all the plants, and animals, and finally, Man. What is the definition of Chance? Take the example: if I tell you I am an expert pen thrower, such that everytime I throw a pen onto a desk, it lands on its TIP on the table. What is the chance of that happening? 1 in 100? Assuming this is the probability, I throw the pen, and voila! It lands on its tip the very first time. The atheist says it is "chance"; I was lucky on my first try. Then, I pick up a second pen, and throw that one so that this second pen LANDS ON ITS TIP ON TOP OF THE FIRST PEN. What is the probability of THAT happening? Surely more than 1 in 10000. Yet, the disbeliever says it is still "chance". If I keep this up, pen after pen, so that each pen I throw lands atop the one previously thrown, on its tip, there has to be reached a point after some time whereby even the most stubborn of disbelievers has to consider that perhaps, I am doing what I am doing NOT by chance, by rather, by will. This is the concept of God. Allah[swt]. He does that which He does by Will, not by Chance. The probability of all that has happened happening in the way that it has happened is so remote, that were it not for the Will of a far superior being, the world as we know it may not have existed. Take the topic of the universe; in order for it to be as it is today, able to sustain life, : 1. the universe had to be created with the planets...by chance? 2. the sun had to be created...by chance? 3. the distance between the sun and the planet we call earth had to be just RIGHT so as to deliver sufficient light that we would neither roast nor freeze...by chance? 4. the earth had to rotate 365 days a year...by chance? 5. it had to spin on its own axis so as to allow us to sleep and wake[ i.e night and day]...by chance? 6. it had to have a tilted axis so that again, there would be relative bearable distribution of light etc over the planet...by chance? The list goes on. Take the other example of the biology of reproduction. 1. Among the 4-6 million sperm ejaculated at any one time, only the one that contributes to the formation of YOU fused with the egg...by chance? 2. following this fusion, the outer surface of the egg/zygote changed so as to repel and prevent any further penetration by any more sperm, preventing polyspermy...by chance? 3. the zygote, travelling to the uterus/womb, manages to adhere and cling to the uterine wall, settling itself in quite firmly...by chance? 4. the ability of the mother to sustain the fetus, ...by chance? 5. a fetus, covered in " three veils of darkness", and growing therein, is prepared with the ability to SEE, which is of little use to it in the womb...by chance? 6. the fetus, covered completely in fluid, is prepared nonetheless with a pair of lungs, and a nose etc, which will enable it to survive once it emerges into this world...by chance? 7. the fetus, which is fed by the umbilical cord through its mom, is nonetheless prepared with a mouth to feed once it emerges into the world...by chance? Need I go on? Will we not then heed our Lord, who has made for us signs on every field, every area, every topic, if only we would take the time to see, and listen, and use the most precious gift He has blessed us with: intellect. Wallahu 'alam. Wa 'alaikum salaam wa Rahmatullahe wa Barakatu Fee Amaan Allah, Wasalaam. Imaan Shivani Joshi, sci30342@cobra.nus.sg If you want what Allah[swt] wants then there is no confusion as what Allah[swt] wants happens. "If I should will something that my Lord does not will for me, I should then be guitly of unbelief."-- Rabi'a al Adawiyya. O God, You called, and we were slow. Alas! alas! what we did we did in poor judgement. ------------------------------ From: Gale Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:38:42 -0700 Subject: Re: the prediction of Islam Michael Moore wrote: > I was actually looking for more of an exegesis of Biblical scripture. I know > that there was mention of 'the Comforter' that Jesus said was comming and > there is apparently some reason to believe that this was in reference to > Mohammad (saws). All references i have found to identify Mohammad as Jesus's promise of the paracletos (which you translate here as Comforter), are more or less afterthought glosses in secondary sources. But i have never heard or read anything that Mohammad made this claim in ahadith. And it is certainly not in the holy Quran. i have a vague remembrance of the source of this mythic identity being from a medieval text, but i will have to research it. Unfortunately i cannot remember the exact translation used in Arabic translations of the Gospels for the paracletos, but i recall it having a distant etymological similarity to Mahmud -- or something like that. OK, now the problems: 1) there is no known copy or fragment of the Gospels, or any part thereof, in Arabic that can be dated before the coming of the Prophet. Syriologists are pretty much agreed that the Gospels were not translated into Arabic before Mohammad. Arab Christians, and there were many, relied on the Syriac text where paracletos has no etymological similarity to the Arabic usage or even retains its Greek. 2) Christians acknowledge Jesus's promise of the coming paracletos to be the descent of the Spirit as "tongues of fire" upon the disciples at Pentocost. Christian history, in all its many permutations and sects through history, are almost all agreed that the coming of the paracletos is a spiritual event of the Spirit that happens to an individual and not the appearance of a human being. 3) There were other claims by individuals of being the promised paracletos, mostly self-proclaimed prophets, and the most important one being Mani, the founder of Manichaeism in A.D. 202.... which historically still had considerable influence, albeit waning, over the Middle East at the time of Islam's arrival. Until i find some primary evidence to prove otherwise, i suspect that the Mohammad-paracletos identity was a missionary "device" used in the Middle East to address either the paracletos doctrine in Manichaeism and/or the expectations of a populace that awaited the appearance of a "Comforter." In other words, great political rhetoric. Blessings to all, Nur Jemal Gale ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 21:19:39 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: The prediction of Islam Salam.The proofs at least substantially can be found in Muhammad Abul Dawud's Muhammad in the Bible .Muhammad Abul Dawud was the former Rev.Benjamin Keldani and Bishop of a Roman Catholic Sect in what was then known as Persia.He was a Doctor of Divinity and a very influential Bishop.He was familiar with Greek, Latin, Arabic and ancient languages such as Aramaic etc Catch up with you letter.Fi Amanilllah. At 10:47 8/29/96 -0700, you wrote: >Hello, > What are the general arguments used to convince Christians >that Islam is the fullfillment of the Christian prophecy. > >I would like to se the evidence posted here, but I understand >that the subject may be to large for this forum in which case >references to books or other materials would be appreciated. > >-- >It's a beautiful day just South of San Francisco Bay >Indeed we may... > say ! > it's a beautiful day >-- >(and no, this is not Volgon(1) poetry) >Michael J. Moore >------------------------------------------------------------- >(1) Volgon - An intelligent species of space travelers feared > for their enjoyment of inflicting severe pain on > on captives by reciting Volgon poetry. See > "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy". > ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 06:50:07 -0700 Subject: RUMI 1045 COME ON DARLING pass me one more cup bestow on my soul tranquility once more and do it now today is my turn i can wait no more for the unknown tomorrow if you have as my share even a small trace of grace give it to me now don't make me wait let me go free help me to break out from this new trap i've fallen into again don't hand me over to the monster of my thoughts my thoughts are another trap another waiting vampire take my only belongings take them to the pawn shop pledge them once more and bring me the last cup RUMI, ghazal number 1045, translated May 6, 1992, by Nader Khalili. tanzen ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:49:46 -0700 Subject: Re: the prediction of Islam frank gaude wrote: Hello, folks! Gale wrote: > > Michael Moore wrote: > > I was actually looking for more of an exegesis of Biblical scripture. I > > know there was mention of 'the Comforter' that Jesus said was comming and > > there is apparently some reason to believe that this was in reference to > > Mohammad (saws). > > All references i have found to identify Mohammad as Jesus's promise of the > paracletos (which you translate here as Comforter), are more or less > afterthought glosses in secondary sources... [...] > Until i find some primary evidence to prove otherwise, i suspect that the > Mohammad-paracletos identity was a missionary "device" used in the Middle > East to address either the paracletos doctrine in Manichaeism and/or the > expectations of a populace that awaited the appearance of a "Comforter." > In other words, great political rhetoric. Good luck with "primary evidence". Thanks, Nur Gale, for your input here... such parallels my early studies of the origins of the Gospels and Qur'an and all the "cooking" that goes on after a prophet dies and religions are created by followers. It was at about this time I gave up on "history books" and started using the Book of Nature as main source for understanding. Love, harmony and beauty, may the message spread far and wide, tanzen ------------------------------ From: BRYAN CONN Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 13:41:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Most Beautiful Names (2) Ar-Rahmaan Bismillah ir-Rahmaan ir-Raheem In the Name of Allah the Beneficient, the Merciful ___________________________________________________________________________ Assalaamu Alaikum Installment number 2 of the 99 names of Allah. Please forgive any typos, or other mistakes. I hope these posts are beneficial to some, and not harmful to any. The Following comes from "The Most Beautiful Names" Compiled by Sheikh Tosun Bayrak al-Jerrahi al-Halveti Threshold Books - Amana Books __________________________________________________________________________ _ AR-RAHMAN He is the one who wills mercy and good for all creation, at all times, without any distinction between the good and the bad, the faithful and the rebel, the beloved and the hated. He pours upon all creation infinite bounties. The proof is in the Qur'an: wa rahmati _ wasi'at kulli shay'in "My Mercy covers everything" (7:156) _ The ones who know have interpreted the meaning of Rahman as the will of the total good of Allah, _ _ iradat al-khayr, and say that Rahman, like Allah, is a proper name of the Creator, and cannot be attributed to others. The meaning of this mercy is a fineness of feeling, a pain and concern felt when one knows that someone is in distress. It begins with this pain, whose pressure moves us to help the one in distress. But the feeling of mercy and pity is not sufficient. Real compassion is in force when one is able to alleviate the pain and distress which the pitied one is suffering. Allah is beyond all these, yet He opted for compassion rather than punishment before He created creation. He has created all creation with His mercy. Everything which has come to be since the beginning is blessed with mercy. He has created all creation, including His supreme creation, man, without defect and pure. He has blessed His creation with infinite bounty. In His mercy, He has shown the dangers of loss and perdition. He has given man and only man the freedom of choice between good and bad. _ Find in yourself the light of Rahman by using your freedom of choice for the good of yourself and of others. Feel the pain of the misguided one as well as the unfortunate one, not with condemnation, but with pity and assistance. Abu Hurayrah ( May Allah be pleased with him) reports the Messenger of Allah (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him) as saying, "Allah Most High has one hundred portions of mercy. He has sent only one portion upon the universe and divided it among all His creation. The feeling of mercy and compassion that His creatures feel among them selves is out of that share. The other 99 portions He has saved for the Day of Last Judgment when He will bestow them upon the believers." Another hadith reflecting the will and wish of Allah to offer His compassion and beneficence to the creation is: "If one does not need and asks Allah [for His compassion and beneficence], Allah will direct His anger towards him. _________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: BRYAN CONN Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 13:41:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Most Beautiful Names (2) Ar-Rahmaan Bismillah ir-Rahmaan ir-Raheem In the Name of Allah the Beneficient, the Merciful ___________________________________________________________________________ Assalaamu Alaikum Installment number 2 of the 99 names of Allah. Please forgive any typos, or other mistakes. I hope these posts are beneficial to some, and not harmful to any. The Following comes from "The Most Beautiful Names" Compiled by Sheikh Tosun Bayrak al-Jerrahi al-Halveti Threshold Books - Amana Books __________________________________________________________________________ _ AR-RAHMAN He is the one who wills mercy and good for all creation, at all times, without any distinction between the good and the bad, the faithful and the rebel, the beloved and the hated. He pours upon all creation infinite bounties. The proof is in the Qur'an: wa rahmati _ wasi'at kulli shay'in "My Mercy covers everything" (7:156) _ The ones who know have interpreted the meaning of Rahman as the will of the total good of Allah, _ _ iradat al-khayr, and say that Rahman, like Allah, is a proper name of the Creator, and cannot be attributed to others. The meaning of this mercy is a fineness of feeling, a pain and concern felt when one knows that someone is in distress. It begins with this pain, whose pressure moves us to help the one in distress. But the feeling of mercy and pity is not sufficient. Real compassion is in force when one is able to alleviate the pain and distress which the pitied one is suffering. Allah is beyond all these, yet He opted for compassion rather than punishment before He created creation. He has created all creation with His mercy. Everything which has come to be since the beginning is blessed with mercy. He has created all creation, including His supreme creation, man, without defect and pure. He has blessed His creation with infinite bounty. In His mercy, He has shown the dangers of loss and perdition. He has given man and only man the freedom of choice between good and bad. _ Find in yourself the light of Rahman by using your freedom of choice for the good of yourself and of others. Feel the pain of the misguided one as well as the unfortunate one, not with condemnation, but with pity and assistance. Abu Hurayrah ( May Allah be pleased with him) reports the Messenger of Allah (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him) as saying, "Allah Most High has one hundred portions of mercy. He has sent only one portion upon the universe and divided it among all His creation. The feeling of mercy and compassion that His creatures feel among them selves is out of that share. The other 99 portions He has saved for the Day of Last Judgment when He will bestow them upon the believers." Another hadith reflecting the will and wish of Allah to offer His compassion and beneficence to the creation is: "If one does not need and asks Allah [for His compassion and beneficence], Allah will direct His anger towards him. _________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 15:21:28 -0700 Subject: Re: Atheism/Existence of God Hi Joshi, Joshi wrote: > > Assalaamu 'alaikum wa Rahmatullahe wa Barakatu > > Alhamdulillah, yesterday, I had a wonderful 1.5 hour class on > Tauhid, a portion of which was spent on the consideration of whether Man, > and everything we see around us, for that matter, came about by chance[ > as Science and the atheists claim] or by the will and power of a higher > being. Mash'Allah, it was a truly moving experience to learn from the Ustad. > I would like to share a portion of that knowledge with you, if > you will allow me, Insh'Allah. > The atheist says that everything happened by chance; the earth > and the universe came into being over eons by chance, as did all the > plants, and animals, and finally, Man. Is this true? Does every atheist say that everything happened by chance? As an ex-atheist I can say that I never believed that everything happened by chance? I have spoken to many atheists; they did not say that everything happened by chance. Many have said that everything is ordered by cause and effect; the prime cause being unknown. - --- A little story --- Our champion warrior was scheduled to fight and the town had gathered to watch. The adversary did not arrive and so our champion, fashoned a substitute from some straw. The dual began and the straw adversary was dispached with ease. The town people, having never seen the real adversary, were quite satisfied. - ---------------------- So what our champion did in the physical world, we also do with ideas. Just listen to any politicial! Clinton- " Dole says 'bla bla bla'" but we know this is wrong because xyz! " By putting words into Dole's mouth, Clinton has built a straw man that can be easily dispached. This is called a 'straw-man agrument'. {Please forgive me if I am being condescending or pedantic. It only my attempt to be clearly understood. There are many here who can walk circles around me when it comes to logical analysis.} > What is the definition of Chance? Take the example: if I tell you > I am an expert pen thrower, such that everytime I throw a pen onto a > desk, it lands on its TIP on the table. What is the chance of that > happening? 1 in 100? Assuming this is the probability, I throw the pen, > and voila! It lands on its tip the very first time. The atheist says it > is "chance"; I was lucky on my first try. I don't believe that you would actually find anybody that would say this. > Then, I pick up a second pen, > and throw that one so that this second pen LANDS ON ITS TIP ON TOP OF THE > FIRST PEN. What is the probability of THAT happening? Surely more than 1 > in 10000. Yet, the disbeliever says it is still "chance". If I keep this > up, pen after pen, so that each pen I throw lands atop the one previously > thrown, on its tip, there has to be reached a point after some time > whereby even the most stubborn of disbelievers has to consider that > perhaps, I am doing what I am doing NOT by chance, by rather, by will. "No", says the atheist, "this is not caused by your will, this is caused by your action." You say. "Ah, but my will/thought caused my action!". The atheist says,"No, we do not know what forces are at work to cause action. We do not know the primary cause." > This is the concept of God. Allah[swt]. He does that which He > does by Will, not by Chance. The probability of all that has happened > happening in the way that it has happened is so remote, that were it not > for the Will of a far superior being, the world as we know it may not > have existed. I could just as well say,"The probability of a far superior being deliberately willing things to be (as they are) is so remote, that we can surmise that such a being does not exist." > Take the topic of the universe; in order for it to be as it is > today, able to sustain life, : > 1. the universe had to be created with the planets...by chance? > 2. the sun had to be created...by chance? > 3. the distance between the sun and the planet we call earth had to be > just RIGHT so as to deliver sufficient light that we would neither roast nor > freeze...by chance? > 4. the earth had to rotate 365 days a year...by chance? > 5. it had to spin on its own axis so as to allow us to sleep and wake[ > i.e night and day]...by chance? > 6. it had to have a tilted axis so that again, there would be relative > bearable distribution of light etc over the planet...by chance? > The list goes on. > > Take the other example of the biology of reproduction. > 1. Among the 4-6 million sperm ejaculated at any one time, only the one > that contributes to the formation of YOU fused with the egg...by chance? > 2. following this fusion, the outer surface of the egg/zygote changed so > as to repel and prevent any further penetration by any more sperm, > preventing polyspermy...by chance? > 3. the zygote, travelling to the uterus/womb, manages to adhere and cling > to the uterine wall, settling itself in quite firmly...by chance? > 4. the ability of the mother to sustain the fetus, ...by chance? > 5. a fetus, covered in " three veils of darkness", and growing therein, is > prepared with the ability to SEE, which is of little use to it in the > womb...by chance? > 6. the fetus, covered completely in fluid, is prepared nonetheless with a > pair of lungs, and a nose etc, which will enable it to survive once it > emerges into this world...by chance? > 7. the fetus, which is fed by the umbilical cord through its mom, is > nonetheless prepared with a mouth to feed once it emerges into the > world...by chance? There is nothing in any of the above that cannot be explained by science up to a certain point. Beyond that point we simply do not know. "Not knowing" does not constitute evidence for the existence of God. The universe is vastly mysterious and anybody may choose to believe that this points to God however it is not convincing evidence. > > Need I go on? Will we not then heed our Lord, who has made for us > signs on every field, every area, every topic, if only we would take the > time to see, and listen, and use the most precious gift He has blessed us > with: intellect. Yes, intellect is important, but intellect is never sufficient to argue against atheism. Intellect can be used equally effectively against theism. Intellect is a sword with two edges, it cuts both ways. Intellect is like a bicycle that can get us to the ocean shore. You can use intellect to turn an atheist into an agnostic (providing of course that his atheism is based on intellectual argument). After he becomes agnostic, then he may choose to be a believer. Given a choice, who would choose non-belief over belief? Who would choose death over life? Who would choose the void over the love of allah (swt)? Now I have said none this in an effort to dampen your enthusiasm for tawid, but only to encourage you to sharpen your skills. Feel free to argue against me if you wish. If you really want to test your skills, join an atheist mail list. They will chop you to pieces and force you to reassemble your thoughts each time getting stronger and stronger. When you are strong, then go out and bring people to belief. Check out this web page http://www.assiniboinec.mb.ca/user/downes/fallacy/index.htm > > Imaan Shivani Joshi, Best Wishes, Michael J. Moore ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 08:22:02 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: the prediction of Islam Assalamu alaikum, On Thu, 29 Aug 1996, Gale wrote: > All references i have found to identify Mohammad as Jesus's promise of the > paracletos (which you translate here as Comforter), are more or less > afterthought glosses in secondary sources. But i have never heard or read > anything that Mohammad made this claim in ahadith. And it is certainly not in > the holy Quran. Here is what the Qur'an says (this is the only possible reference to this I am aware of): And remember, Jesus, son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of God (sent) to you confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving glad tidings of an Apostle to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "This is evident sorcery!" (Qur'an 61:6) Ahmad is one of the names of Muhammad (pece be with him); it literally means "Praised One." Apparently a word very similar to "paracletos" (the "Comforter" in John's Gospel) - it might be "periklytos" (??? from memory...) also literally means "Praised one." So many Muslims infer from this that what is talked about in Qur'an 61:6 is really the "Comforter" mentioned in the Gospel of John. There are more details to the argument, but I'm no expert on it... another interesting point is that apparently there is evidence that many early Christians did understand that the "paraclete" was to be a man, not a spirit. However, you will have to find the details in some of the books that are around.... Jamal Badawi I know has a booklet on this topic (called "Muhammad in the Bible" I think), which is mostly where I got my info from many years ago. Wassalam, Fariduddien ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 15:35:10 -0700 Subject: Pictures anybody? Hi On other occasions I have posted my web page address. This page contains my picture. But I was thinking it would be fun to see pictures of other people here. Yeah, I know, pictures don't reveal the real person or really say anything important, but tossing all analysis aside I just though it would be FUN to see pictures! Is any body out there willing to share their web page picture with us? Would anybody like to have their picture on the web? If you send your picture to me I will scan it and make a page with our pictures on it. If you already have a scanned picture, you could e-mail it to me. Is anybody interested? - -- Cheers, Michael J. Moore - -- Michael J. Moore ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #114 *****************************