From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Sun Jul 7 07:18:41 1996 Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:51:10 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #23 tariqas-digest Saturday, 22 June 1996 Volume 01 : Number 023 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fred Rice Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:23:03 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: Sai Baba Assalamu alaikum, Regarding Sai Baba, perhaps someone could let me know more about this point. Regarding Sai Baba's hair (it sticks out everywhere), I read somewhere that in fact he lost some hair in a certain part of his head due to some childhood accident. He has his hair in that "frizzy" style to cover up this particular loss of hair. Is this true? If it is, then why can't he create a miracle to restore his lost hair? Anyhow, I read that somewhere, and that question occurred to me, has anyone heard of this before? (I probably read it on a Sai Baba web page, now that I think of it -- that's the only place I've read about Sai Baba -- I may be able to find it with some searching.) Peace, Fariduddien Rice P.S. I must admit, I tend to be skeptical of "spiritual teachers" who make big shows of performing magical tricks, like producing trinkets supposedly from thin air. To my own reading, a true spiritual man (of today's times anyhow) would not make such a thing his main attraction. There are many stories of miracles associated with Sufis of old, however they are certainly not the main things about these people, rather they are incidental, and just amazing things people noticed without the Sufi concerned making a big show of it. I have also been told some remarkable stories about a particular contemporary Sufi, but he certainly claims nothing extraordinary, rather these are things his students have noticed about him. This is in big contrast to a "showy" magician like Sai Baba, and who people generally know about because of his tricks, rather than for his message (I have no idea what his message is, but I've heard of his magic tricks). By the way, I've turned paper (confetti) into water in front of about 300-500 people, but I had the help of a magic book! I was in 6th grade, and our primary school had a circus. I used to be into doing magic tricks as a child, so I did a magic act. There was nothing spiritual about it, but I got a good round of applause. The audience was mainly parents of the students (it was a small school). Of course, I never told anyone how I did it (a good magician never reveals his secrets). ------------------------------ From: Hudoyo Hupudio Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:10:49 +0700 Subject: Re: Sai Baba At 07:58 PM 6/21/96 +0100, you wrote: >I never heard of Sai Baba until Today. He sounds like a sufi to me. >Kaffea Lalla > My dear Kaffea, As a starter, I strongly recommend the book: "Sai Baba The Holy Man ... and the Psychiatrist," by Samuel H. Sandweiss, MD (Birth Day Publishing Co., P.O.Box 7722, San Diego, CA 92107, (c) 1975, several printings then). (I am not related to the publisher in any way.) I think you can find the book in any new age bookstore in your city. The author is a Jewish psychiatrist who is a sceptic-turned-believer of Sai Baba. It is one of the books which has helped spur and balance my spiritual growth (about ten years ago). I used to revel in intellectual heights borrowing from Theravada Buddhism and Jiddu Krishnamurti; my head was far ahead of my heart at that period. But then Sai Baba came and he filled and keeps filling my heart with love until now. Love, Hudoyo ------------------------------ From: Hudoyo Hupudio Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:10:55 +0700 Subject: Re: Sai Baba At 08:49 PM 6/21/96 -0700, tanzen wrote: >One more thought regarding Sai Baba comparing him and his words to those of >Pir-O-Murshid Inayat Khan, Murshid SAM, Pir Vilayat, Pir Hidayat, Jay Em, >Murshida Rabia, and Kahunas in general. All of the latter seemed, seem to go >out of their way to not bring attention to themselves, seeming to have little >or no egos. > >But Sai Baba seems to do just the opposite, in somewhat the fashion of the >reported character of Jesus. The devotees seem to be prompted to "worship" >Sai Baba through his "manifestations"... there is no judgement here as I know >that sufficient faith in a rock can bring results, and after all, a rock is >an aspect of The Beloved. > >Anybody have thoughts along this line? > My dear tanzen: You are absolutely right. IMHO, the seemingly mutually exclusive contradictory attitudes can be explained in part by the difference in the tradition of theological thought (theological system) in which each one grew and taught/teaches. In Islam it is held that the Creator and the Creation are mutually exclusive (please correct me if I'm wrong): so in order to attain to the Divine, one must keep effacing oneself with the hope that God's Grace will reveal a glimpse of His Face to the devotee. While in the tradition of India (Hinduism and Buddhism) the basic tenet of the faith is that within everything --sentient and insentient-- there is a spark, so to say, of the Divine. So the young are exhorted to look to their father and mother as embodiments of God, and disciples are enjoined to regard their spiritual guru as the highest manifestation of God in the world. This applies not only to Satya Sai Baba, but to other spiritual gurus as well. Yes, Sai Baba very often proclaims his divinity, even in a "provocative" way, which is often very hard to swallow for our muslim brother and sisters. I'm not in the position to interpret his attitude. (Or should I interpret it at all?) Yet, I know several muslim friends of mine who acknowledged to me their indebtedness to Sai Baba. One of them --who is now right here with us-- said to me: "The interesting point about myself is, I got interested in Sufism after I read Sai Baba literature. Reading Sai Baba's words made me want to discover my religion more. From what I've read Sai Baba says, follow your own religion and you do not have to follow Sai Baba." This friend is absolutely right. "God is omnipresent. He is the in-dweller of every heart and all names are His. So you can call Him by any name that gives you joy. You must not cavil at other names and forms, nor become fanatics, blind to their glory... ...For the protection of the virtuous, for the destruction of evil- doers and for establishing righteousness on a firm footing, I incarnate from age to age. (This a famous passage from the "Bhagavad Gita", purported to be said by Krishna, a full Avatar during a previous millenia./hudoyo)... Whenever disharmony overwhelms the world, The Lord will incarnate in human form to establish the mode of earning peace, and to reeducate the human community in the paths of peace... ... I do not mention Sai Baba in any of my discourses, but I bear the name as Avatar of Sai Baba. I do not appreciate in the least the distinction between the various appearances of God: Sai, Rama, Krishna, etc. I do not proclaim that this is more important or that the other is less important. Continue your worship of your chosen God along the lines already familiar to you, then you will find that you are coming nearer to me. For all names are mine, and all forms are mine.There is no need to change your chosen God and adopt a new one when you have seen me and heard me... ... Your worldly intelligence cannot fathom the ways of God. He cannot be recognized by mere cleverness of intelligence. You may benefit from God, but you cannot explain Him. Your explanations are merely guesses, attempts to cloak your ignorance in pompous expressions... Cynics carp without knowledge. If they learn the scriptures, or if they cultivate direct experience, they can understand me. Your innate laziness prevents you from the spiritual exercises necessary to discover the nature of God... ... This laziness should go. It has to be driven out of man's nature in whatever shape it appears. That is my mission... My main task is the reestablishment of the spiritual scriptures... This task will succeed. It will not be limited. It will not be slowed down. When the Lord decides and wills, his divine will cannot be hindered... ... Cultivate a nearness with me in the heart and it will be rewarded. Then you too will acquire a fraction of that supreme love. This is a great chance. Be confident that you will all be liberated. Know that you are saved. Many hesitate to believe that things will improve, that life will be happy for all and full of joy, and that the golden age will recur. Let me assure you that this divine body has not come in vain. It will succeed in averting the crisis that has come upon humanity." (Sai Baba address in 1968 --during the cold war, Vietnam war, Berlin wall, apartheid in South Africa and the might of the Soviet Union--/"Sai Baba the Holy Man...") :-< Provocative, eh? Or should I say, jarring? But, jarring to what? Our complacency? (A second explanation may be the following --and this is only my wildest speculation, so you may as well trash it-- who knows that in their enlightened state each one understands his/her specific tasks which should be undertaken in their lives. Maybe it is differences in the specific tasks that engender different methods of carrying them out, which to us mortals may seem contradictory and confusing. Let's keep in mind that the story of Satya Sai Baba has not finished yet. Currently it is still unfolding. I'm eager to see what will happen in the next 25 years, since he has predicted that he will live to the ripe age of 95 -- he is now 70.) That is all I can think at the moment. I am receptive to other suggestions. Peace and Love, Hudoyo >...sufficient faith in a rock can bring results ... > "And upon this rock I shall build my church." (Jesus) ------------------------------ From: Hudoyo Hupudio Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:11:01 +0700 Subject: RE: Indian guru-busters expose godman's frauds (fwd) At 04:38 PM 6/21/96 -0700, Nur wrote: >Sorry, I see no truth to the statement below regarding Buddha, and even Jesus, for >that matter. Please read the Pali Suttas and observe how Buddha repeatedly addresses >himself against the brahmin elite and the hierarchical structure of >religious-supported casteism. Moreover, the founding of his spiritual community was >based upon a symbiotic relationship between the monastics and the laypersons which >undermined the prevailing social structure. The Middle Way is a social reform as >well as a spiritual reform. > >Blessings, Nur > > >> . Their worth is measured by the extent of the >> changes that occurred in _every_ individual that has been touched by them. >> Buddha and Jesus did not participate in social reform. > Yes, you are absolutely right, Nur. I was carried away in my rejoinder by the popular distinction between the Prophet Muhammad on the one hand who led a _political_ reform and Buddha and Jesus on the other hand who did not do one during their lifetime. I agree fully with you that both the latter initiated a subtle and lasting social reform. Their influence is still felt after at least two millenia. I should modify my statement. Thank you very much, Hudoyo ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 00:01:20 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: Sai Baba Assalamu alaikum, Regarding Sai Baba, again, what has Sai Baba done that no other magician today can do? For example, producing things out of thin air is a common magic trick. Often a stage magician, for instance, can pluck a ring from an unsuspecting audience member's ear, and things like that. These are really not so remarkable. David Copperfield, the well-known "illusionist", apparently made the Statue of Liberty disappear in front of a live audience. These are the kinds of things a clever magician can do. What can Sai Baba do that David Copperfield, for instance, could not also do? David Copperfield is of course, just an entertainer, but Sai Baba claims to be an incarnation of God, if I am not mistaken. Now, let's look at some of the true miracles of history. Moses (peace be with him) turned his staff into a snake, but so did the magicians of Pharoah. However, Moses's snake ate up the Pharoah's magician's fake snakes. The Pharoah's magicians knew that their "magic" was just tricks.... when Moses's snake ate up their snakes, they knew that Moses's "magic" was the real thing. Or, to take another example, Jesus raised the dead. No magician that I know of today can do this "trick." So what has Sai Baba done that cannot also be done by today's magicians (such as David Copperfield, for instance)? I think these are valid questions to ask of someone who makes claims like those of Sai Baba. Can he raise the dead, as Jesus (peace be with him) did? Can he split the moon, as it was reported that Muhammad (peace be with him) did? Surely, if Sai Baba is an "incarnation of God," such things would be easy for him. Wassalam, Fariduddien Rice (amateur magician from childhood, though I haven't done it now for many years, but I know some of the magician's tricks -- David Copperfield still astounds me though.) ------------------------------ From: barzakh@idola.net.id Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:03:06 +0700 Subject: faith and heal Bismillahirrahmanirrahim. At 07:30 PM 6/21/96 -0700, tanzen wrote: > ....... > >How does one acquire "faith" sufficient for healing one self, then others? > >Anyone wish to discuss this subject? > >Regards, > >tanzen > > Assalamu'alaykum, Dear brother tanzen, About how much faith must we have to heal, there's an interesting story from my Sufi master: He once had a neighbour, a young boy, who has the power to heal himself and others just because he has a big, strong confidence within him that God only gives what is best for him (and everybody). He himself didn't realize his healing power until a venomenous snake bit him but gave no harm to him. Then under my Sufi master's guidance, he can also cure others. We can see that "ikhlas" is the key to this healing power. The person who is perfectly "ikhlas" is called "mukhlis". Sorry, I can't find a perfect English translation for "ikhlas". Any comment? Love to all, Wassalamu'alaykum, your brother, Michael Roland ------------------------------ From: Hudoyo Hupudio Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:00:54 +0700 Subject: Re: Sai Baba At 09:23 PM 6/22/96 +1000, Fariduddien Rice wrote: > >Assalamu alaikum, > >Regarding Sai Baba, perhaps someone could let me know more about this >point. Regarding Sai Baba's hair (it sticks out everywhere), I read >somewhere that in fact he lost some hair in a certain part of his head >due to some childhood accident. He has his hair in that "frizzy" style to >cover up this particular loss of hair. Is this true? If it is, then why >can't he create a miracle to restore his lost hair? > Assalamualaikum, I really don't know anything about Sai Baba's hair. I also don't know whether his hair is deliberately styled or naturally growing. It would be strange indeed for a spiritual guru to go to a hairdresser. ;-)) >P.S. I must admit, I tend to be skeptical of "spiritual teachers" who >make big shows of performing magical tricks, like producing trinkets >supposedly from thin air. >To my own reading, a true spiritual man >(of today's times anyhow) would not make such a thing his main attraction. > So, in your opinion, my friend, do you think that it is OK for Jesus to feed thousands of people with a few loaves of bread and fish and to turn water into wine 2000 years ago, and that it is not OK for Sai Baba to manifest all those things today? >There are many stories of miracles associated with Sufis of old, however >they are certainly not the main things about these people, rather they >are incidental, and just amazing things people noticed without the >Sufi concerned making a big show of it. I have also been told some >remarkable stories about a particular contemporary Sufi, but he certainly >claims nothing extraordinary, rather these are things his students have >noticed about him. > Exactly the same thing you described happens with Sai Baba! >This is in big contrast to a "showy" magician like >Sai Baba, and who people generally know about because of his tricks, >rather than for his message (I have no idea what his message is, but >I've heard of his magic tricks). > Many people go to him attracted by his message, while giving little - --if at all-- importance to his materializations, or see it as a natural aspect of his reality without giving any importance. I, for one, am attracted to him by his bold statement: "You are God!" Sai Baba's message is found succintly in the posting sent by K.Ahmad to this mailing list. And there are lots of his books in the market. Well, many people based lightly their conclusions about Sai Baba on hearsay about his supposedly "magic tricks", without bothering to listen to his message. IMO, that is a rather unbalanced conclusion, brought about by one's predetermined opinion of what a spiritual guru should or should not do. (I'm sorry about this.) ;-) >By the way, I've turned paper (confetti) into water in front of >about 300-500 people, but I had the help of a magic book! I was in >6th grade, and our primary school had a circus. I used to be into >doing magic tricks as a child, so I did a magic act. There was >nothing spiritual about it, but I got a good round of applause. The >audience was mainly parents of the students (it was a small school). >Of course, I never told anyone how I did it (a good magician never >reveals his secrets). > IMO, Sai Baba's "magics" are neither magic, nor occult power, but divinely caused -- take it or leave it. :-) Let Sai Baba speak for himself: "...You must have heard people say that mine is all magic. But the manifestation of divine power must not be interpreted in terms of magic. Magicians play their tricks for earning their maintenance, worldly fame and wealth. They are based on falsehood and they thrive on deceit, but this body can never stoop to such a low level. This body has come through the Lord's resolve to come. That resolve is intended to uphold the truth. Divine resolve ia always true resolve. Remember there is nothing that divine power cannot accomplish. It can transmute earth into sky and sky into earth. To doubt this is to prove that you are too weak to grasp great things, the grandeur of the universe... ... I have come to give you the key of the treasure of bliss, to teach you how to tap that spring, for you have forgotten the way to blessed- ness. If you waste this time of saving yourself, it is just your fate. You have to get from me tinsel and trash, the petty little cures and promotions, worldly joys and comforts. Very few of you desire to get from me the thing that I have come to give you, namely: liberation itself. Even among these few, those who stick to the spiritual practice and succeed are a handful." ("Sai Baba the Holy Man... and the Psychiatrist", Samuel H. Sandweiss) Peace and Love, Hudoyo ------------------------------ From: AMBER K WILLIAMS <102064.3531@CompuServe.COM> Date: 22 Jun 96 11:50:28 EDT Subject: Sai Baba Hi, I feel that until the language is cleaned up and we use man and woman or people instead of man and mankind that the very unity that is wanted is left out in the language. Respect between women and men has to be addressed. It is time for men to love women and to stop the madness or not included women in all parts of society as well as in the language. There is no way that I can fully believe or appreciate anyone who still uses this kind of language. Sincerely, Iram ------------------------------ From: AMBER K WILLIAMS <102064.3531@CompuServe.COM> Date: 22 Jun 96 11:55:18 EDT Subject: Re: Sai Baba Dear One, To include all of us and to promote unity would it be possible to use, sisterhood and brotherhood and parenthood instead of fatherhood. Women do alot of work as mothers and deserved to be respected in your language. Thanks Iram ------------------------------ From: AMBER K WILLIAMS <102064.3531@CompuServe.COM> Date: 22 Jun 96 11:59:37 EDT Subject: Re: Sai Baba Dear Tanzen, You are my brother and I am your sister. Please do not exclude me with your language. Please use brotherhood and sisterhood and parenthood and people and not just brotherhood and fatherhood or man and mankind. It is a small thing but it increases the very unity you say you wish to have. Some women have a hard time not being recognized. I sure if all the spiritual writing you came across said sisterhood and motherhood and never mentioned men, you might have a twinge too. I would appreciate you meditating deeply on this. God/Goddess is beyond gender and we need to appreciate this in our writings. All the Best Iram ------------------------------ From: Hudoyo Hupudio Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 23:22:18 +0700 Subject: Re: Sai Baba At 12:01 AM 6/23/96 +1000, Fariduddien wrote: > >Assalamu alaikum, > >Regarding Sai Baba, again, what has Sai Baba done that no other >magician today can do? > My friend, the answer to your challenge is very simple: Sai Baba's greatest miracle is the transformation of millions of hearts. For that matter, those are not the hearts of gullible people, but intellectuals, scientists, doctors, businessmen, politicians in high places, and ordinary people whose hearts are yearning for spiritual nourishment, both Eastern and Western. Many of them were one time sceptics, but they cared to listen to his message, and the message took hold. That is the one thing that David Copperfield cannot do. >I think these are valid questions to ask of someone who makes claims like >those of Sai Baba. Can he raise the dead, as Jesus (peace be with him) >did? > Yes, he can and indeed he is reported to have done it at least twice. (Would you now ask for affidavits?) >Can he split the moon, as it was reported that Muhammad (peace be >with him) did? > This is the first time I heard that the Prophet split the moon. How ignorant I am. Could you enlighten me, where is such report to be found? In the Hadith? >Surely, if Sai Baba is an "incarnation of God," such >things would be easy for him. > Another thing that Sai Baba is reported to have often done is the "reading" of people's mind. This has been widely attested by people who came to him and were granted an "interview". (My late sister and late brother-in-law who visited his Ashram in their 60s in 1986 also related to me their personal experience with this feat.) It is said that actually it is not "mind-reading", since he knows instantly whatever inside other people's minds, whether far or near. To me, it is not something impossible, since I believe that at the kernel of our souls we are ontologically of one "substance". Another thing that can be considered as a miracle is the appearance of vibhutti (holy ash) on hundreds of photographs of Sai Baba and other holy men (Jesus etc.) who happen to stand beside that of Sai Baba. This miracle occurs in hundreds of homes of Sai devotees throughout the world. If one cares to sit and watch closely for 1-2 hours, one can actually see it materializes: the glob of ash becomes bigger slowly with time. I have seen one in the home of a certain Sai devotee in my hometown. I doubt if David Copperfield could repeat the last two feats. Peace and Love, Hudoyo ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:24:33 +0100 Subject: Re: Sai Baba > >My dear Kaffea, > >As a starter, I strongly recommend the book: "Sai Baba The Holy Man ... >and the Psychiatrist," by Samuel H. Sandweiss, MD (Birth Day >Publishing Co., P.O.Box 7722, San Diego, CA 92107, (c) 1975, several >printings then). (I am not related to the publisher in any way.) I think >you can find the book in any new age bookstore in your city. > >Love, >Hudoyo - ------------------ >Thanks Hudoyo, I will check this out. BTW what does your name mean. It sounds >sort of Indian....I think a nickname could be yoyo:} Just kidding of course. >Kaffea Lalla (You can call me coffee if you wish, I drink lots of it. > ------------------------------ From: Hudoyo Hupudio Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 23:31:25 +0700 Subject: Re: Sai Baba At 11:50 AM 6/22/96 EDT, Iram wrote: >Hi, > >I feel that until the language is cleaned up and we use man and woman or >people instead of man and mankind that the very unity that is wanted is >left out in the language. Respect between women and men has to be >addressed. It is time for men to love women and to stop the madness or >not included women in all parts of society as well as in the language. >There is no way that I can fully believe or appreciate anyone who still >uses this kind of language. > >Sincerely, > >Iram > > I second your motion. In my postings you may notice that I have tried to do that, but nevertheless forgive me for my lapses. Love, Hudoyo ------------------------------ From: Gale Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:40:12 -0700 Subject: Miracles A translation: "Although the psychic [see note below] can perform some wonderful = marvels, s/he still hasn't arrived at the stage of the perfected ones. = To perform miracles before sceptics does not impede one from becoming = jealous or angry, but there is no way of seizing the wisdom of one's = destiny unless one's awareness is pure. The portal for all true = miracles, both those that are performed and those that are seen, is the = teachings about God, and to know that through them people will = understand the life of the resurrection. This pure awareness is more = interior, and thus it is more profound in its inestimable worth than the = gift of miracles... If the performance of miracles were greater than the = wisdom concerning the future life, then why wouldn't God give to the = righteous the power to perform miracles instead of wisdom of the = mysteries after the resurrection [ie., the mystical resurrection]. It = is evident therefore that the power of miracles exists solely as an = antidote to error so that people may refrain from error and dedicate = themselves to learning the wisdom of the mysteries. That is why the = power of miracles is only for the psychics among humanity. Just as the = soul is between corporeality and spirituality in a way that is niether = like the body nor the perfect contemplation of the high angels, in this = world the power of miracles stands between the false and the true... For = this reason the future resurrected life, being superior to all that is = false, is likewise superior to miracles. NOTE: Early Near Eastern mystics make a distinction between psychics and = mystics/pneumatics. The latter are those still struggling to master the = will of the body; the mystics or pneumatics have reached the state of = purity, or translucency of the soul (Syr. shena). My translation of John of Apamea, also known as John the Solitary = (Syria, circ. AD 450) from his "Conversations on the Soul and the Human = Passions" Nur ------------------------------ From: CWoodsong@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:51:45 -0400 Subject: The Goddess is Alive... Dearest Iram, >You are my brother and I am your sister. as you are also my sister, father, brother and son... and tanzen is our sister too... > Some women have a hard time not being recognized. I sure if all when i was about 7 years old, i used to 'pretend' i was male... i kept my hair very short-- dressed and acted the part too... this was important to the 7 year old i was. Many people actually believed i was a boy. I think my reasons for this were purely cultural. Girls were /expected/ to play with dolls... look 'pretty'... be a 'certain way'... simply because of the body they were using. Now... 30some years later... i am beginning to touch the essence of my femininity. And i remember just the other day thinking and even saying... i am very glad i am a woman! >the spiritual writing you came across said sisterhood and motherhood and >never mentioned men, you might have a twinge too. good point, dear one! :) but... hmmm... i wonder if it's because those who are more masculine actually need more of the language ... whereas those attuned more to the feminine are more likely to intuit things without/beyond(?) language. I am not trying to minimize your point... you've just started me thinking! :) >I would appreciate you meditating deeply on this. God/Goddess is beyond >gender and we need to appreciate this in our writings. yes... it makes quite a difference to read of the divine Feminine, as well as the ALL, IT... beyond gender... blessings to you, dear one... love, your brother, sister, daughter.... ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #23 ****************************