From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Sun Jul 7 07:21:17 1996 Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 17:43:17 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #24 tariqas-digest Saturday, 22 June 1996 Volume 01 : Number 024 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lilyan Kay Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CAIR: Muslim School Faces Closure (fwd) asalaam-u-aleikum Please forgive me if this has overstepped the bounds of this list. This makes me so angry that I was unable to restrain myself from posting it here, in the hopes that some of you would respond. Lily - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- *********************************** * Bismillahi-r-Rahmani-r-Raheem * *********************************** The following is a forwarded message from: CAIR at: cair1@ix.netcom.com ************************ Forwarded Message ************************* The the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful Salaam alaykum: The following is a forwarded message from the Muslim Community Association in Santa Clara, California. Please reply to the address listed in their web site (http://www.save-our-school.org). (Begin forwarded message) The MCA of Santa Clara is struggling to save its school from an onslaught of legal challenges from one of its neighbour "LSI Logic" for the last 3 years. MCA has set up a Web site http://www.save-our-school.org for providing info and for getting support letters, etc. MCA has been supported by around 50 of its neighbours, over 30 local christian organizations and 2000+ residents of Santa Clara. The city of Santa Clara also has permitted MCA to operate school and center in the current p remises. Action Items Requested: - ---------------------- 1. Please visit http://www.save-our-school.org before the end of June to show your support. Its Urgent. 2. Please encourage others to visit this site. 3. Please mirror http://www.save-our-school.org locally if possible. (End forwarded message) - ----------------------------------------- Article from CAIR News, Spring/Summer 1996 SILICON VALLEY FIRM SEEKS TO CLOSE MUSLIM SCHOOL CAIR is assisting an Islamic school and mosque in California's Silicon Valley facing closure due to persistent legal actions by a nearby high-tech facility. Leaders of the Islamic community in Santa Clara, Calif., say LSI Logic Corp., has been attempting to close Granada Elementary School since it opened two years ago. LSI Logic claims the presence of children so close to its facility causes an unspecified financial burden. Local Muslims say closing the school would result in great hardship for students, parents and teachers. In a news article about the dispute (San Francisco Chronicle, 1/13/96), The Reverend Herb Schmidt, Lutheran Pastor at Stanford University said, "We are deeply concerned that if this was a synagogue or a Roman Catholic parochial school, this (the lawsuit) would not be happening." - -- ____________________________________________________________________ _____ _____ _____ Council on American-Islamic Relations / ____| /\ |_ _| __ \ 1511 K Street N.W., Suite 807 | | / \ | | | |__) | Washington, D.C. 20005 | | / /\ \ | | | _ / Tel: (202) 638-6340 | |____ / ____ \ _| |_| | \ \ Fax: (202) 638-6412 \_____/_/ \_\_____|_| \_\ E-mail: cair1@ix.netcom.com To join CAIR-NET, CAIR's read-only mailing list: Send "subscribe cair-net" in the body of a message to majordomo@ari.net ____________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: Gale Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:11:34 -0700 Subject: RE: Sai Baba - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6023.36E63900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hudoyo wrote: > >Sai Baba's greatest miracle is the transformation of millions=20 >of hearts. For that matter, those are not the hearts of=20 >gullible people, but intellectuals, scientists, doctors, businessmen, >politicians in high places, and ordinary people whose hearts are >yearning for spiritual nourishment, both Eastern and Western.=20 >Many of them were one time sceptics, but they cared to listen to=20 >his message, and the message took hold. Do you accredit this transformation to Sai Baba or to the Divine? Be = careful of your personal projections when you answer. >Yes, he can and indeed he is reported to have done it at least twice. >(Would you now ask for affidavits?) Yes, some affidavits would be most welcome -- also medical records. >Another thing that Sai Baba is reported to have often done is the >"reading" of people's mind.=20 There is nothing miraculous or secret in this -- Rajneesh and a host of = charlatans through history have done this also. >Another thing that can be considered as a miracle is the appearance >of vibhutti (holy ash) on hundreds of photographs of Sai Baba and=20 >other holy men (Jesus etc.) who happen to stand beside that of Sai=20 >Baba. This miracle occurs in hundreds of homes of Sai devotees >throughout the world. If one cares to sit and watch closely for=20 >1-2 hours, one can actually see it materializes: the glob of ash >becomes bigger slowly with time.=20 Does this derive from Sai Baba or the belief and devotion of the = disciples? I would like to offer a short book worth reading "The Unknowing Sage: = The Life and Work of Baba Faqir Chand" (Mt. San Antonio College Press, = 1100 N. Grand Ave. Walnut, CA 91789), who was a late renegade of the = Radhasoami lineage and a master of surat shabt yoga. One of the more = honest books by a spiritual teacher you will find about the = manifestation of spiritual phenomena deriving from students and = independent of the guru in terms of some conscious act on the guru's = part. He also mentions the tricks gurus perpetuate to hold on to = students -- especially visions of teachers on the inner planes, etc. =20 Nur - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6023.36E63900 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiwRAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG ACgBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAEsAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAAB0YXJpcWFzQGV1cm9wZS5zdGQuY29tAFNNVFAAdGFyaXFhc0BldXJvcGUuc3RkLmNv bQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABcAAAB0YXJpcWFzQGV1cm9wZS5zdGQuY29t AAADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgABMAEAAAAZAAAAJ3RhcmlxYXNAZXVyb3BlLnN0ZC5jb20nAAAA AAIBCzABAAAAHAAAAFNNVFA6VEFSSVFBU0BFVVJPUEUuU1RELkNPTQADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoBAAAA AgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAA+o4AQiABwAYAAAASVBNLk1pY3Jvc29mdCBNYWlsLk5vdGUAMQgBBIAB AA0AAABSRTogU2FpIEJhYmEAlAMBBYADAA4AAADMBwYAFgAKAAsAIgAGACwBASCAAwAOAAAAzAcG ABYACQAwACYABgBUAQEJgAEAIQAAAEVDRjM1NzZFMEVDQ0NGMTE5OURFNDQ0NTUzNTQwMDAwACsH AQOQBgCsCAAAEgAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5AIBTkt1dYLsB HgBwAAEAAAANAAAAUkU6IFNhaSBCYWJhAAAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG7YF3diW5X8+3MDhHPmd5E RVNUAAAAAB4AHgwBAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAfDAEAAAASAAAAZ2FsZUBzaW5ld2F2ZS5jb20A AAADAAYQuJfGMwMABxCOBgAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAASFVET1lPV1JPVEU6U0FJQkFCQVNHUkVBVEVT VE1JUkFDTEVJU1RIRVRSQU5TRk9STUFUSU9OT0ZNSUxMSU9OU09GSEVBUlRTRk9SVEhBVE1BVFRF UixUSE9TRUFSRU5PVFRIRQAAAAACAQkQAQAAADoHAAA2BwAApA4AAExaRnVqI/rG/wAKAQ8CFQKo BesCgwBQAvIJAgBjaArAc2V0MjcGAAbDAoMyA8UCAHByQnER4nN0ZW0CgzP3AuQHEwKDNANFEzUH bQKALn0KgAjPCdk7GD8yNR41AoAKgQ2xC2BuZzEMMDMUUAsDbGkxOIIwAtFpLTE0NA3w5wzQHKML WTE2CqADYBPQzmMFQAqLHAAzNh1HFWEFC/JjAEFiIEh1ZPhveW8K4QtkFFEL8h5G6nceUjoKhT4K hyAPIRCOPiGvHmQGEGkgQgGgbGEnBCAJwWET0BPAIIhtaXIA0GxlIAQA6CB0aCjQdCiQAIACEBJy AMB0aQIgIG9m/ShhbBwAAiAEICP/JQ8mHwcqQikwCsB0cy4gRj8FsSkgKBAoYCgQE9ByLLUpEW8R sCAKwCjQbh5gfykTLoQqQisfLC8tPyfQdUcqoQJgKNBwZW8LUGX5L/BidQVAC4AT0CqgHoH6dQdA cy/wBPAIkAIwBAD/LsAv8CFQHpAFsDchNiAAkMpuB5BzB4BuLDHfMu/3M/81kAbwaSoAN2AGIguA sS5waWdoNZALYGMHkHsv8ABwZCpACyALgArAef81lSMAMCMxNTBxOW86fzuP3CB5LpEDABtAICmx N0A+cCiAPNA28TChCHFzaJ05IXQ2AR5gPcBFYRPB+wShPmJXKDEEkS7gQK9Bv79CzwXQAHA/ECpR KSFtIwC/BJAo0AIgKUEHcTdBZQUw7zzwOHMw0z8QYzBxPoA4QP4gHAATwQOgTkFHz0jfSe/HPYEE IAeBc2FnNfE+YmcpIlKVTjFvay5wBvBkbi4KhQqPID5EIYAhcHX9MGBjBQAJgDzQKREo8il8H05B JzY+kU4yKSJEaXa5ONE/ICdgKNBN4mY1IP8qQldxBcA1oBGgAiBFIR5B/moegSrDP6BOsVdzAIBL 0T9Uth8/UU9PH1AvYG8gWf8+IikxTeBG1AuADbBOESkxvyjxGEA8oAAgThQRgHYo0P8hUEwxWBEv YSjARoEpEAPwnz4QXuhiH2MvYPcoVwhgf1SQV2MwsAfgRoBUUERyYRkN0GlkZ2A80HM/Kf9VPyA+ boVkw1zQTIFtyCMA/WxzYlOBMDAi8TaQBaBMgfwtLTBgNxAhgAeAPsBN4PcDIBhABaFkLtBe/x/f IOLvYP9q+2rPd6ZBMLEpMC8i/0QyL0NZt2ZvZ3EqUE6iZ6TPKQNpH2ovee8gIifxPsH8ZyIqQjWk J7EocD5wLuD7eJ1UzFR7QSjTexJEMihz/zUgCGAxgUSRBZAYQDZCWDTxc7FSYWo44AeQPcA+Yv9a IDAhLjMRcgtgAZAGMSkg/QNgdT2xUlE4QT8QZ1hYQ/9z4mkOYJ9/P4BPeg97H2Uz/3KxBaAAgQSB ThFGgImxKH38YXA1oArAAHA+EI8/kE/nkV8qQlsAYmg2MCoAbEBnVHE/EEaAaClMES5wdfc+cBhB MYNwMCA4QAnAlgD+aDGDWbc+Ypavl7+YzypA73szmrM5IWxASgeQh3ERwPxjLpswP6FnQZYRTsMT wP8+YnKwlEIvNJ0Fng+fH6Av/ydjLuCF4FJiKIU4IIcwEaC/PVObmTAgB4KdBQ2wdh5h/weQpX+m j6efiwYIYDDUclD7ipCD4UkqYEwiTeIpAaPB+2fyPnF3KBARcE3QF9ARsB+a0URyrJ+tr66/IDEt /xHgsDE4YrFkRtE205rREbBPZ9Mp4QZxB0BpegeQOv0pE2cX0CEQKlGbAbPftO/vtf9yoXNiBCBi PaBS4ESR/RfQd5rRA/BGQUxig/9Uz/9vL1bmsdJSUgSBWvAo0ANS/1msKTFysBwADcA+U6wTKhW/ KSI+wDdRNdFuUMFcSXJF7RwAa1QCKkFme1FaIEWg/xfhRhFUQbDBRkGCZYJAheHwIFVua20BRDIG EFLg+7oAzIJMBpAwUUcCBbBUUCMqUVnzRmFxKIAgQ8cRgD5wgtAoTXQu4AYRf5JhOEADACGACFA2 oVPxUFuxwTchMRtgeWBOLuBHWylxPoBBZ3Au4FcHQG4DNjAv8ENBIDkxN/g4OSkv8KMCsrCU0oqh 9yjQGEA44GeCgH3iKROI8PZkEYBc0GEocE5hOOBT4v+JhADARpIqQqJgKJAFQEWgzwGgQ8GcgKjh IE9MMcd1/wRgMIEwIDjhyyS+sZrhRKn/E9AA0HtCV3ID8CqgRGBlwf8wYAbgsFUDgc4Ro+EqBkS4 /5xACfBxYT7gxGREM8TyE8D/IUA3gUBRZZWjceICx2Y1EO5yV5CIQgSQbTGDcVOUEv83YIdiuEGb QuOWJ7HB8dBR/kgwUXP0N5Eq0ikkPPDbgf/j0ubRBJA1oDbh1VFnIlSB/+YDo8Lh9XOxB5A1oD0B uJL/WwAAkCrSS1LctDGB5iQLgP844FyBGyE+IqKiW1DBX1+f/XkkTghwvO8ea+/fYA8eXAUXYQD3 MAAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAAAEAABzAAbPWoWmC7AUAACDAAbPWoWmC7AR4APQABAAAABQAAAFJF OiAAAAAAjgc= - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6023.36E63900-- ------------------------------ From: Frank Gaude Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:08:43 -0700 Subject: Re: Sai Baba Hello, dear ones! AMBER K WILLIAMS wrote: [...] > Please use brotherhood and sisterhood and parenthood and > people and not just brotherhood and fatherhood or man and mankind. Thank you, Iram, for reminding me of such... hope to do better in the future, through the grace of Allah. > I would appreciate you meditating deeply on this. God/Goddess is beyond > gender and we need to appreciate this in our writings. Yes, you are so correct! love, love, love, tanzen ------------------------------ From: Frank Gaude Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:33:08 -0700 Subject: Re: Sai Baba Hello, everybody! Hudoyo Hupudio wrote: > > At 12:01 AM 6/23/96 +1000, Fariduddien wrote: > >Regarding Sai Baba, again, what has Sai Baba done that no other > >magician today can do? > > > My friend, the answer to your challenge is very simple: > > Sai Baba's greatest miracle is the transformation of millions > of hearts... Amin! > >I think these are valid questions to ask of someone who makes claims like > >those of Sai Baba. Can he raise the dead, as Jesus (peace be with him) > >did? > > > Yes, he can and indeed he is reported to have done it at least twice. > (Would you now ask for affidavits?) Well, here is a little personal story regarding Jay Em: An old friend of his, a woman, was near death in the hospital here at Lake Tahoe. The daughter of this woman called Jay. When Jay got to the hospital the doctors told him that she was about dead, hopeless. He asked to see the woman privately for five mintues. They let him. Jay did his thing, then left the hospital. The next day the woman was walking around and went home that day! The doctors said, "These things happen, we don't know why." Then in about a week the woman called Jay and asked, "Hey, can I die now?" Jay said "Sure," it is up to you, I only responded to your daughter's wishes. In a few days the woman died abruptly. I have been known to say that "Jay apparently can do anything that Jesus did." And he does it for the exact reason Jesus did: To Show What You Are: PURE SPIRIT! Remember, every healing is the result of a removal of a cause, and every cause has a cause, going back to desire for separation, desire to experience, desire to know. How this desire came, comes about is beyond human knowledge and is in the realm of Will of Absolute . Do I believe in the unseen? you bet. Do I believe in the Ray of Creation? you bet. Am I a pantheist? you bet! Do I love all creation? I try... Love, Harmony, and Beauty, coming, tanzen ------------------------------ From: jabriel@peoples.net (Jabreil Hanafi) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:41:35 -0500 Subject: re:Not Appreciate Iram said: >There is no way that I can fully believe or appreciate anyone who still >uses this kind of language. Dear Iram, In regard to the manner in which we dominate through language, the use of gender, it is a very difficult question. And yet to hear you say that you can no longer appreciate anyone who still uses this language has driven me to a response. Because I am not a female I can only empathize. And I empathize as an American Arab who also has plunged himself into a world of prejudice and in equality and injustice. And yet my reality is not the same as yours. I have not had to endure the same type of atrocities that either you or your sisters have. And I do hear your outrage. And hear an outrage which is clear and I think pure. Please forgive me then when in my ignorance I open the possibility of tolerance, of accommodation, of not resisting evil since what we resist persists. The rapist is in fact at least as much an animal as he/she is a human with all the potential to be human. When I worked in the South in the sixties registering voters I had to make it my business to listen to people who were afraid, prejudiced and whose understanding no matter how foreign needed to be heard. If we stop listening, if we stop having faith that what is underneath the fear and only validate the surface, the crust so to speak, where will we be.If I had the ability to bless you I would bless you with the rare ability your Shayke has to see the very best in you, in that person who is less sophisticated and uses an inappropriate use of gender. Jabriel - ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Pivotal Point Dynamics ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:40:31 +0100 Subject: The Goddess is Alive... Dear Woodsong: >From one heart to another heart to another... The heart has no gender...Love just spreads A blanket of peace, unity, harmlessness, Oneness... So here we are together, having the BEST PICNIC And no one can even spoil it. Kaffea Lalla ------------------------------ From: Lilyan Kay Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Sai Baba In my opinion, this Samuel Sandweiss is giving Jewish skeptics a bad name. Shalom Lily ------------------------------ From: Simon Bryquer Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:05:24 -0700 Subject: Re: Sai Baba Fred Rice wrote: > P.S. I must admit, I tend to be skeptical of "spiritual teachers" who > make big shows of performing magical tricks, like producing trinkets > supposedly from thin air. To my own reading, a true spiritual man > (of today's times anyhow) would not make such a thing his main attraction. > There are many stories of miracles associated with Sufis of old, however > they are certainly not the main things about these people, rather they > are incidental, and just amazing things people noticed without the > Sufi concerned making a big show of it. I have also been told some > remarkable stories about a particular contemporary Sufi, but he certainly > claims nothing extraordinary, rather these are things his students have > noticed about him. This is in big contrast to a "showy" magician like > Sai Baba, and who people generally know about because of his tricks, > rather than for his message (I have no idea what his message is, but > I've heard of his magic tricks). > > By the way, I've turned paper (confetti) into water in front of > about 300-500 people, but I had the help of a magic book! I was in > 6th grade, and our primary school had a circus. I used to be into > doing magic tricks as a child, so I did a magic act. There was > nothing spiritual about it, but I got a good round of applause. The > audience was mainly parents of the students (it was a small school). > Of course, I never told anyone how I did it (a good magician never > reveals his secrets). XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Salaams Fariduddien and salaams to one and all, Here's a story a sheikh once told me concerning miracles: Onces there was a Sheikh with only one dervish. Although the dervish loved the Sheikh and thought he was the best in the world he always felt a twang of envy when he saw lesser sheikhs all around with many followers. Why couldn't they realize how great and saintly his Sheikh was. One day he expressed these feelings to his Sheikh. The Sheikh told him not worry but to come the next day to the court gardens of the town market next to the Mosque just before evening prayers. The next day the Sheikh stood in the center of the Market square. He was holding a black crow. It was very crowded. People were doing their last shopping for the evening and many were on their way to evening prayer. At a certain point the Sheikh agitated the crow and it caught many peoples attention. When hundreds had gathered to see what was happening, the Sheikh twisted the crow's head off and held the head and the body of the dead bird in each hand up in the air. The crowd loudly expressed their disapproval, but just as they were about to become hostile he raised his hands with the two body parts, made a gesture, and a whole live crow flew away in the sky. The crowds cried they saw and miracle. The make this long story shorter, quickly, this is what happened. In the following days the Sheikh had gathered thousands of followers and they kept growing in the ensuing months. Now the dervish was beginning to regret his request. He remembered the days when he had his sheikh all to himself, listening to his wonderful stories. This was all done and over with, in fact he not spoken to his sheikh in months, he just could not get near him, for the crowds of followers stood in the way. One day he finally managed to speak to the Sheikh and told him how sad he was and how much he longed for the days when it was just the two of them. The Sheikh smiled and simply told him he would see him at Friday prayer -- and the audience was over. The dervish was very crestfallen and was seriously thinking of looking for another sheikh. Next Friday prayer he went to the mosque. As usual there were huge crowds joining the sheikh in Juma. The sheikh stood at the head of the congregation. What the dervish did not know was that the Sheikh had brought with him an empty goatskin water gourde filled with air which he had placed in his armpit. And when the prayers started, during the quiet moments of doing rakats he would squeeze the flask and it would emit a loud farting noise. Which each succeding squeeze and loud farting noise more and more followers left until everyone was gone except for the lonely dervish --who stood at the far end of the mosque. They finished their prayers together and the dervish was happy to be alone with his sheikh once again. Outside the sheikh put his arms around his dervish as they walked and with a big smile said: "You see my dear dervish... see how some people are. In with a miracle and out with fart." SAlaams Simon Bryquer ------------------------------ From: Hudoyo Hupudio Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 02:21:06 +0700 Subject: Re: Sai Baba At 09:24 AM 6/22/96 +0100, Kaffea Lalla wrote: > >>Thanks Hudoyo, I will check this out. BTW what does your name mean. It >sounds >sort of Indian....I think a nickname could be yoyo:} Just kidding of >course. >>Kaffea Lalla (You can call me coffee if you wish, I drink lots of it. >> Hi, Coffee (affectionately), have you had sugar in you? BTW, about my name, you are dead right. It's an old Javanese word, which is derived from Sanskrit "udaya", meaning "the heart". It can also mean "arising". (I'm not sure which one was meant originally.) The ethnic Javanese is the largest ethnic group in Indonesia. Nowadays about 80% of Javanese are Muslims, the rest are Catholics and Protestants. (a tiny fraction are Buddhists and Hindus). Before Islam came to Indonesia, there had been a highly developed locally adapted Hindu-Buddhist culture in Java between the 9th (maybe earlier) and the 15th century. One of the greatest monuments of the period is the world famous Borobudur Stupa. (Have you ever heard about it?) With Islam coming in the wake of the Indian cultures, the Javanese culture became strongly flavored with all three cultures. On the one hand, mosques and mushallas are an essential feature of a village life; on the other hand, the shadow play depicting the epics of Ramayana and Mahabharata is very much loved by the Javanese. These shadow plays, conducted by one person impersonating the protagonists in the story, traditionally run for 9 hours (!) from 9 p.m. till 5 a.m. on weekends. The average Javanese also tends to think of religion in a tolerant and accomodating manner; some of them almost syncretistically. Many Sanskrit and Arabic words found their way into the Javanese and Indonesian languages. Sorry, I've been digressing too far. Back to my name: you're almost right about my nickname, too. It is written "Yoyok"; both "o"s pronounced like in "raw", and the "k" is a guttural stoppage (at the back of the throat, not at the roof of the mouth). Difficult, eh? Anyway, certainly it is far from "yoyo" (the Chinese revolving toy which goes up and down). :-) OK, Kaffea, see you in your coming postings. Love, Hudoyo (I think this kind of message should be run privately rather than publicly. I should apologize to the other members of the group.) ------------------------------ From: Hudoyo Hupudio Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 02:21:09 +0700 Subject: Re: Miracles At 09:40 AM 6/22/96 -0700, Nur wrote: >A translation: > >"Although the psychic [see note below] can perform some wonderful marvels, s/he still >hasn't arrived at the stage of the perfected ones. [...] > >My translation of John of Apamea, also known as John the Solitary (Syria, circ. AD >450) from his "Conversations on the Soul and the Human Passions" > >Nur > Thank you for the sharing. Hudoyo ------------------------------ From: Hudoyo Hupudio Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 02:21:11 +0700 Subject: RE: Sai Baba At 10:11 AM 6/22/96 -0700, Nur wrote: > >Hudoyo wrote: >> >>Sai Baba's greatest miracle is the transformation of millions >>of hearts. For that matter, those are not the hearts of >>gullible people, but intellectuals, scientists, doctors, businessmen, >>politicians in high places, and ordinary people whose hearts are >>yearning for spiritual nourishment, both Eastern and Western. >>Many of them were one time sceptics, but they cared to listen to >>his message, and the message took hold. > >Do you accredit this transformation to Sai Baba or to the Divine? Be careful of your >personal projections when you answer. > I'm posting from my own personal conviction about Sai Baba. My conviction is that Sai Baba has fully realized his Divinity. And the fact is that all those people were transformed as an impact of their meeting with Sai Baba. So to me, it is really the same whether one accredits the transformation to Sai Baba or to the Divine. >>Yes, he can and indeed he is reported to have done it at least twice. >>(Would you now ask for affidavits?) > >Yes, some affidavits would be most welcome -- also medical records. > Sorry, on this matter I have no firsthand knowledge. You may want to contact the authors of the books which related the story; they may have the records. (Howard Murphet, the Satya Sai Publisher at Prasanti Nilayam.) As for myself, the credibility of Satya Sai Baba does not stand or fall on this story, in the same way that the credibility of Jesus does not stand or fall on the truth of the resurrection of Lazarus. >>Another thing that Sai Baba is reported to have often done is the >>"reading" of people's mind. > >There is nothing miraculous or secret in this -- Rajneesh and a host of charlatans >through history have done this also. > Granted that one does not need to be an Avatar to be able to do this paranormal feat. >>Another thing that can be considered as a miracle is the appearance >>of vibhutti (holy ash) on hundreds of photographs of Sai Baba and >>other holy men (Jesus etc.) who happen to stand beside that of Sai >>Baba. This miracle occurs in hundreds of homes of Sai devotees >>throughout the world. If one cares to sit and watch closely for >>1-2 hours, one can actually see it materializes: the glob of ash >>becomes bigger slowly with time. > >Does this derive from Sai Baba or the belief and devotion of the disciples? > My understanding is that both sides are essential. The uniformity of the phenomena indicates that the role of Sai Baba is instrumental. Re: posting by K.Ahmad on the subject of Sai Baba, section on Miracle Healing. >I would like to offer a short book worth reading "The Unknowing Sage: The Life and Work of Baba Faqir Chand" (Mt. San Antonio College Press, 1100 N. Grand Ave. Walnut, CA 91789), who was a late renegade of the Radhasoami lineage and a master of surat shabt yoga. One of the more honest books by a spiritual teacher you will find about the manifestation of spiritual phenomena deriving from students and independent of the guru in terms of some conscious act on the guru's part. He also mentions the tricks gurus perpetuate to hold on to students -- especially visions of teachers on the inner planes, etc. > >Nur > Thank you very much for the information. Maybe I could obtain the book some time in the future. It is very hard to order books from Indonesia. They could easily got lost in the mail. Peace and Love, Hudoyo (I think it's enough for tonight. It's 2 a.m. in the morning. I'm signing off until tomorrow. Good night, at least from this side of the globe.) ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 13:43:55 +0100 Subject: To Hudoyo Hudoyo sat at the perimiter of the world And saw the SUN Penetrating the BLACK BACK OF NIGHT... OH Hudoyo rose with LOVE COLORS of GOD ARISING ARISING a Host of Golden Eagles Gathering at the Theater of This Cathedral Arch of Heart... Hudoyo was silent in the silent Languages of the Beloved Arise and BE, JUST BE... Your Friend, Kaffea Lalla ------------------------------ From: Frank Gaude Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:49:53 -0700 Subject: Re: Sai Baba Simon Bryquer wrote: > > Fred Rice wrote: > > > P.S. I must admit, I tend to be skeptical of "spiritual teachers" who > > make big shows of performing magical [...] > Outside the sheikh put his arms around his dervish as they walked and with > a big smile > said: "You see my dear dervish... see how some people are... " Thanks, Simon, a very appropriate story at this time and place. For each person there is a religion... religion? yes, the relationship of the finite to the infinite. No magic, just understanding and knowledge, from such comes unique, individual beings, each with a way "home". Let the games continue! Peace, tanzen ------------------------------ From: Frank Gaude Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:15:09 -0700 Subject: Re: faith and heal Hello, folks! Bismillah al-Rahman al-Raheem! barzakh@idola.net.id wrote: > At 07:30 PM 6/21/96 -0700, tanzen wrote: > > > >How does one acquire "faith" sufficient for healing one self, then others? > > > >Anyone wish to discuss this subject? > About how much faith must we have to heal, there's an interesting story from > my Sufi master: The question is "how does one acquire faith sufficient... " > He once had a neighbour, a young boy, who has the power to heal himself and > others just because he has a big, strong confidence within him that God only > gives what is best for him (and everybody). > He himself didn't realize his healing power until a venomenous snake bit him > but gave no harm to him. Then under my Sufi master's guidance, he can also > cure others. Interesting. Thanks for sharing such with us! > We can see that "ikhlas" is the key to this healing power. > The person who is perfectly "ikhlas" is called "mukhlis". > Sorry, I can't find a perfect English translation for "ikhlas". I would translate the word "ikhlas" as "pure faith", one that came about without conscious work... interesting. Hope others add to the definition. > Any comment? Does your Sufi Master teach others to cure, heal themselves? I visited your Master's Web page... very nice fellow and family... his disciples seemed to glow. Yes, a revolt is going on here! One thing, my experience would have been "better" on the page if the English had been better... had to use two levels of mind to fully understand what was there. Anglos, in general, do not like mental translations, such work... but other than that, my feelings were exalted by your Master. Love, tanzen Alhamdu'lillah! ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #24 ****************************