From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Sun Jul 7 07:21:35 1996 Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:58:19 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #25 tariqas-digest Saturday, 22 June 1996 Volume 01 : Number 025 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Gaude Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:36:33 -0700 Subject: Re: Sai Baba Hello, everybody! Hudoyo Hupudio wrote: > > At 08:49 PM 6/21/96 -0700, tanzen wrote: [...] > >But Sai Baba seems to do just the opposite, in somewhat the fashion of the > >reported character of Jesus. The devotees seem to be prompted to "worship" > >Sai Baba through his "manifestations"... there is no judgement here as I know > >that sufficient faith in a rock can bring results, and after all, a rock is > >an aspect of The Beloved. > > > >Anybody have thoughts along this line? > You are absolutely right. IMHO, the seemingly mutually exclusive > contradictory attitudes can be explained in part by the difference > in the tradition of theological thought (theological system) > in which each one grew and taught/teaches. [...] > (A second explanation may be the following --and this is only > my wildest speculation, so you may as well trash it-- who knows that > in their enlightened state each one understands his/her specific tasks > which should be undertaken in their lives. Maybe it is differences in the > specific tasks that engender different methods of carrying them out, > which to us mortals may seem contradictory and confusing. Good thinking! (Remember Jesus is reported to have say, "Don't call me good, only God is good. So you are of "God thinking".) Let our truth become our good! and it seems that only through tolerance such comes about. Understand? > Let's keep in mind that the story of Satya Sai Baba has not finished > yet. Currently it is still unfolding. I'm eager to see what will happen > in the next 25 years, since he has predicted that he will live to the > ripe age of 95 -- he is now 70.) Jay Em is 71... and I had a vision that he would live to 112... in that same vision I saw myself dead at 105. I am not sure I take such literally. > >...sufficient faith in a rock can bring results ... > > > "And upon this rock I shall build my church." (Jesus) Well, I have had several visions of the personality known as Jesus... and upon "a rock" a church is there, but Jesus has no "church" per se. Let us respect all man-made churches equally... this I try to do! Thanks, Hudoyo, for your contributions here at caravanserai! Thanks for being! Love, harmony, and beauty, down these lines, tanzen ------------------------------ From: Frank Gaude Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:39:04 -0700 Subject: Re: CAIR: Muslim School Faces Closure (fwd) Hello, all you sentient beings, ones of The Beloved! Lilyan Kay wrote: > > asalaam-u-aleikum > > Please forgive me if this has overstepped the bounds of this list. This > makes me so angry that I was unable to restrain myself from posting it > here, in the hopes that some of you would respond. > > Lily But Lilyan, there were several here praying that you would do as you did! And we have gone to the site and let our views be known. God, You are beautiful! Peace, tanzen ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 08:37:21 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: Sai Baba Dear Tanzen, Assalamu alaikum, On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, Frank Gaude wrote: > > >I think these are valid questions to ask of someone who makes claims like > > >those of Sai Baba. Can he raise the dead, as Jesus (peace be with him) > > >did? > > > > > Yes, he can and indeed he is reported to have done it at least twice. > > (Would you now ask for affidavits?) I certainly would ask for an eyewitness account, at least, maybe two to be sure. > Well, here is a little personal story regarding Jay Em: An old friend of his, > a woman, was near death in the hospital here at Lake Tahoe. The daughter of > this woman called Jay. When Jay got to the hospital the doctors told him that > she was about dead, hopeless. He asked to see the woman privately for five > mintues. They let him. Jay did his thing, then left the hospital. The next > day the woman was walking around and went home that day! The doctors said, > "These things happen, we don't know why." > > Then in about a week the woman called Jay and asked, "Hey, can I die now?" > Jay said "Sure," it is up to you, I only responded to your daughter's wishes. > In a few days the woman died abruptly. > > I have been known to say that "Jay apparently can do anything that Jesus > did." And he does it for the exact reason Jesus did: To Show What You Are: > PURE SPIRIT! I don't know who Jay Em is, however, I think it is now well accepted that _faith_ (as you have been also saying) can have a powerful effect on the body. I think there is a difference in bring someone back from _near-death_ and bringing someone back from _actual_ death.... It was bringing someone back from actual death that I was asking about. I should state I do believe in the possibility of miracles, and all that stuff -- as a Muslim, I accept the accounts in the Qur'an, which confirms many of the miracles in the Bible. However, I also accept the existence of charlatans, who are good at doing magic tricks, as I used to do as a child for fun. The Qur'an (and probably also the Bible) also attest to the existence of charlatans, particularly the Pharaoh's "sorcerers". The more the particular person promotes his or her ability to perform "miracles," the more I doubt, because (as someone said before) this seems to go completely against the _humility_ of a true spiritual man or woman. Jesus (peace be with him) performed many, many miracles, with the power of God. But (having just finished reading the Gospel of Mark), whenever Jesus (a.s.) performed a miracle, he would tell the people not to tell other people about it. Many of those people disobeyed him, and shouted about what he did in the streets, however, it is important that Jesus (a.s.) asked them to keep his achievements a secret (even though many disobeyed him). A modern miracle worker who trumpets his or her "miracles" far and wide has my skepticism to go with it, as it seems like the opposite behaviour to me to a truly spiritual man or woman. However, Allah knows best. Wassalam, Fariduddien Rice ------------------------------ From: "K.Ahmad" Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 18:38:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Sai Baba Peace Be Upon You The following was written by Bon Giovanni a Sai Baba Devotee. It was a long article. I shortened it to suite the list. > His Mission: > > Stating that he is not seeking to establish a new religion nor to > direct people towards a particular religion, Sathya Sai Baba > encourages those attracted to his message "to continue worshipping > along the lines already familiar to you." > > He has further stated that he has not come to attract followers to > "his fold" but to reveal the lamp of love that shines in our hearts > so that it may shine with added lustre. Thus the Christian becomes a > more able follower of Jesus Christ, the Buddhist deepens his > understanding of the Buddha, the Jew more ably attends the Law and > The Prophets, and the atheist more directly apprehends the nature of > reality- and so on. This is proven to be so with every student of > Sri Sathya Sai Baba, no matter what their faith, or background. > > Sathya Sai Baba does not teach an otherworldly "pie in the sky" > spirituality, but stresses instead that spiritual life is to be > lived in society, among our friends and families. To aid this > realization he has established clinics, hospitals, elementary and > secondary schools, colleges and major universities, all of which > provide all services free of charge. He has also inspired the > formation of over 5000 centres throughout the world, whose members > study and practise his spiritual teachings and engage in a variety > of community activities. > > He says, > > "Let the different faiths exist, let them flourish, and let the > Glory of God be sung in all languages and in a variety of tunes.That > should be the ideal. Respect the differences between the faiths and > recognize them as valid as long as they do not extinguish the flame > of unity. If each person lives the ideals propounded by the founders > of his religion, unaffected by greed or hate, then the world will be > a happy and peaceful habitation for man." ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:08:44 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: Sai Baba Assalamu alaikum, I should add something to what I just wrote. I wrote: > Jesus (peace be with him) performed many, many miracles, with the power > of God. But (having just finished reading the Gospel of Mark), whenever > Jesus (a.s.) performed a miracle, he would tell the people not to tell > other people about it. Many of those people disobeyed him, and shouted > about what he did in the streets, however, it is important that Jesus > (a.s.) asked them to keep his achievements a secret (even though many > disobeyed him). A modern miracle worker who trumpets his or her > "miracles" far and wide has my skepticism to go with it, as it seems like > the opposite behaviour to me to a truly spiritual man or woman. Jesus (peace be with him) has been mentioned a lot to compare to Sai Baba. Another thing I notice is that Jesus (a.s.), as far as I know, _never_ did something miraculous just to impress people and get people to "worship" him. The miracles in general he performed (through the "Father", through God) that I remember in my reading were to _help_ people. He helped cure the sick, make the blind to see, that sort of thing, and fed people. Jesus (a.s.) did not do "tricks" to make people adore him -- if he did, it is less likely they would have wanted to crucify him! He only did things that helped people, and then usually _asked them to keep it a secret_ -- this is a _far, far cry_ from producing expensive trinkets for politicians, and holy ash for the masses. (I think people often forget that Jesus (a.s.) often asked others to keep his works a secret, because often those people would ignore his request, according to the Gospel accounts.) The character of what I have read of Jesus's (a.s.) actions, and what I have read of the actions of Sai Baba, seem to be of completely different character to me. Jesus (a.s.) (1) only helped people, and (2) usually asked people to keep his works a secret; whereas Sai Baba, as far as I understand, (1) produces many trinkets and "tricks," and (2) seems to promote his own fame. I have never, for example, read of Jesus (a.s.) producing an expensive ring from nowhere for some visiting official, so the official could join his band of admirers. Rather, he said it is harder for a rich man to get to heaven than for a camel to squeeze through the eye of a needle. But Allah knows best. Wassalam, Fariduddien Rice ------------------------------ From: Simon Bryquer Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 19:26:46 -0700 Subject: Re: Sai Baba( slight adjustment to Sheikh &Crow Story) Simon Bryquer wrote: > Outside the sheikh put his arms around his dervish as they walked and with a big smile> said: "You see my dear dervish... see how some people are. In with a miracle and out with fart." > > SAlaams > > Simon Bryquer Salaams to one and all --------------- I just remembered. What the Sheikh says at the end of the story should be: 'They come in with a crow and went out with a fart.' This may seem unimportant, but if one thinks about it, it may produce a different meanings and deeper implications of 'miracles' that is, and other views of this kind of perception of reality and what it means and above all what it should mean. Again greetings to one and all------------ Simon ------------------------------ From: Simon Bryquer Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 19:30:37 -0700 Subject: Sai Baba( slight adjustment to Sheikh &Crow Story) Simon Bryquer wrote: > Outside the sheikh put his arms around his dervish as they walked and with a big smile> said: "You see my dear dervish... see how some people are. In with a miracle and out with fart." > > SAlaams > > Simon Bryquer Salaams to one and all --------------- I just remembered. What the Sheikh says at the end of the story should be: 'They come in with a crow and went out with a fart.' This may seem unimportant, but if one thinks about it, it may produce a different meanings and deeper implications of 'miracles' that is, and other views of this kind of perception of reality and what it means and above all what it should mean. Again greetings to one and all------------ Simon ------------------------------ From: Gale Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 16:51:25 -0700 Subject: RE: Sai Baba - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB605B.14B02840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fariduddien, your keen observations to make a distinction between the = types of paranormal phenomena performed by Jesus and Sai Baba are most = appreciated. Thanks. Ultimately, it is the teacher's hidden motivation = and intention that will be weighed by God, since this cannot be kept = secret. Blessings, Nur - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB605B.14B02840 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiYXAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG ACgBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAEsAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAAB0YXJpcWFzQGV1cm9wZS5zdGQuY29tAFNNVFAAdGFyaXFhc0BldXJvcGUuc3RkLmNv bQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABcAAAB0YXJpcWFzQGV1cm9wZS5zdGQuY29t AAADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgABMAEAAAAZAAAAJ3RhcmlxYXNAZXVyb3BlLnN0ZC5jb20nAAAA AAIBCzABAAAAHAAAAFNNVFA6VEFSSVFBU0BFVVJPUEUuU1RELkNPTQADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoBAAAA AgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAA+o4AQiABwAYAAAASVBNLk1pY3Jvc29mdCBNYWlsLk5vdGUAMQgBBIAB AA0AAABSRTogU2FpIEJhYmEAlAMBBYADAA4AAADMBwYAFgAQADMAGQAGAFEBASCAAwAOAAAAzAcG ABYAEAAzAAQABgA8AQEJgAEAIQAAADI5M0IzODU2NDFDQ0NGMTE5OURFNDQ0NTUzNTQwMDAwAOkG AQOQBgA8AwAAEgAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5AAArCbmVYLsB HgBwAAEAAAANAAAAUkU6IFNhaSBCYWJhAAAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG7YJW5AFY4OyrMQRHPmd5E RVNUAAAAAB4AHgwBAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAfDAEAAAASAAAAZ2FsZUBzaW5ld2F2ZS5jb20A AAADAAYQ8WhtgwMABxD9AAAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAARkFSSURVRERJRU4sWU9VUktFRU5PQlNFUlZB VElPTlNUT01BS0VBRElTVElOQ1RJT05CRVRXRUVOVEhFVFlQRVNPRlBBUkFOT1JNQUxQSEVOT01F TkFQRVJGT1JNRURCWUpFUwAAAAACAQkQAQAAAMsBAADHAQAAkgIAAExaRnU7222P/wAKAQ8CFQKo BesCgwBQAvIJAgBjaArAc2V0MjcGAAbDAoMyA8UCAHByQnER4nN0ZW0CgzP3AuQHEwKDNANFEzUH bQKALn0KgAjPCdk7GD8yNR41AoAKgQ2xC2BuZzE8MDMUUAsKFFEL8SBGQQrAaWR1ZGQIkG5ILCB5 CGEgawnhIARvYhGwcnZhdGljAiAEIHRvIADAHgAgXGEgHVATwAuAYx7CIEpiEcB3HhJ0aB+AdMR5 cAeRb2YgCrEAcHcFsADAAyBwIRAiEAeAbnsfoCFgcgIQIjAJgCBwefQgSgeQdQQgAHAjoAYQ+Gkg QgGgH6AKwB+ABGB7E8AfkHATUAWQBzAT0GSMLiAWQBGAbmtzJmGcVWwewADAE9BseR2QbmkFQAQA IPRlANAhEHL6JwQgaB0QDbADoARgHsD/HqQkQwuAE9ACMCBCIQAesDogA/BsAyAggCtgZWn2ZyEQ I6NHBHAdkACQIBD3ISEpIAQgYwBwIhAFQCvB3x4ABTERsAUAEcAuCoUKhcxCbAeQLPFncx2QB7Bf CHAKjwuRFWEL8mMAQWLDL2Yw22xpMzYN8BwMCzDVF2EANhAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAAAEAABzCg ErGslWC7AUAACDCgErGslWC7AR4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAARM8= - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB605B.14B02840-- ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 10:01:57 +1000 (EST) Subject: RUMI: Love has taken away my practices.... Love has taken away my practices and filled me with poetry. I tried to keep quietly repeating, _No strength but Yours_, but I couldn't. I had to clap and sing. I used to respectable and chaste and stable, but who can stand in this strong wind and remember those things? A mountain keeps an echo deep inside itself. That's how I hold your Voice. I am scrap wood thrown in in your Fire, and quickly reduced to smoke. I saw You and became empty. This Emptiness, more beautiful than existence, it obliterates existence, and yet when It comes, existence thrives and creates more existence! The sky is blue. The world is a blind man squatting on the road. But whoever sees Your Emptiness sees beyond blue and beyond the blind man. A great soul hides like Muhammed, or Jesus, moving through a crowd in a city where no one knows Him. To praise is to praise how one surrenders to the Emptiness. To praise the sun is to praise your own eyes. Praise, the Ocean. What we say, a little ship. So the sea-journey goes on, and who knows where! Just to be held by the Ocean is the best luck we could have. It's a total waking-up! Why should we grieve that we've been sleeping? It doesn't matter how long we've been unconcscious. We're groggy, but let the guilt go. Feel the motions of tenderness around you, the buoyancy. [By Jalaluddin Rumi, from the Divani Shamsi Tabrizi, version by Coleman Barks, From "Rumi: Like This," p. 51.] ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 17:03:52 +0100 Subject: Re: faith and heal > At 07:30 PM 6/21/96 -0700, tanzen wrote: > > > >How does one acquire "faith" sufficient for healing one self, then others? > > > >Anyone wish to discuss this subject? - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- A small twist on words, does faith heal or God heal? A little faith the size of a mustard seed is All God requires to move the mountains of despair, sickness, grief, greed, all the ills of mind, soul, body. Just Believe that God has a remedy even when it isn't seen, understood, or ever comprehended. A thousand years is but a day to God in the eons of eternity. Love Kaffea Lalla ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 10:11:47 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: 11 questions on Ibn Arabi's dream Dear Rabia, Assalamu alaikum! On 22 Jun 1996 aorsellidickson@stingray.ac.cowan.edu.au wrote: > Ibn Arabi wrote: > > ============================================================== > Once God showed me, in the way in which a dreamer sees, that I was > circumambulating the Kaabah with a group of people whose faces I did not > recognize. They were reciting two lines of poetry, one line of which I > remember and the other of which I have forgotten. The one which I > remember is this: > > For years we have turned, as you have turned, around this House, > all together, each of us.... > .... > (From the Futuhat al-Makkiyya; translated by W. C. Chittick in "Imaginal > Worlds: Ibn al-`Arabi and the Problem of Religious Diversity," p. 90.) > ============================================= > > Thank you farid for this most interesting passage. > Does anybody know if the Futuhat al -Makkiyya have been integrally > translated into English? If so, can somebody supply the bibliographical > data? I am particularly interestd in the section on the sacred science of letters, > I remember reading an extract in French > (I have some photocopies, on the letters aleph and nun, but unfortunately > no references ! ) I don't think a complete translation (as far as I know, but I'm no expert) has been made into English. As far as I am aware, the best we have in English so far are a number of extracts from the Futuhat translated by W. C. Chittick, in the book "The Sufi Path of Knowledge: Ibn al-`Arabi's metaphysics of imagination" (State University of New York Press, Albany, 1989). However, I think there is or will be a complete translation, maybe appearing in French (?), edited by Michael Chodkiewicz.... but I don't know the details. (I have seen Chittick refer to this as a work in progress.) > About this passage, my attention has been caught by the movement > between :< we / you / all together/ each of us.> [...] Unfortunately, I am not knowledgeable enough to know the answer to your questions, my dear Rabia! What I have mainly gained I feel from Ibn Arabi so far (I only started to read him recently) is the potential importance of dreams, though I know many here have observed their own dreams for a long time. I don't always remember my dreams, but now when I do I am sure to write them down. :) So far, they have provided excellent points of contemplation, which I feel has given me some new insights into myself, although some of my dreams also remain a mystery. Wassalam! Fariduddien Rice ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 17:14:45 +0100 Subject: Attachments What does it mean when you get e-mail with attachments? I always accept them but I don't understand if it a separate file or where you retrieve it. signed computer Dummy, Kaffea lalla. ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 10:56:14 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: Sai Baba Dear Hudoyo, Assalamu alaikum, I should say first, please don't take my skepticism as a mark of disrespect for you, my brother Hudoyo. I have great respect for you from what I have read in your posts. On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, Hudoyo Hupudio wrote: > At 09:23 PM 6/22/96 +1000, Fariduddien Rice wrote: > > > >Assalamu alaikum, > > > >Regarding Sai Baba, perhaps someone could let me know more about this > >point. Regarding Sai Baba's hair (it sticks out everywhere), I read > >somewhere that in fact he lost some hair in a certain part of his head > >due to some childhood accident. He has his hair in that "frizzy" style to > >cover up this particular loss of hair. Is this true? If it is, then why > >can't he create a miracle to restore his lost hair? > > > Assalamualaikum, > > I really don't know anything about Sai Baba's hair. > I also don't know whether his hair is deliberately styled or > naturally growing. It would be strange indeed for a spiritual > guru to go to a hairdresser. ;-)) Now that I have thought of it further, I think I read the story about his hair (losing his hair due to some childhood accident, etc.) probably on Bon Giovanni's Sai Baba web page. (I once had a short correspondence with Bon Giovanni, who seems like a nice guy. Someone here recently posted something written by Bon Giovanni -- he is a Sai Baba follower. By the way, just a bit of trivia, I think he is also Jon Bon Jovi's cousin.) Anyhow, last night I tried to find Bon Giovanni's web page on Sai Baba again (to find the story of his hair), but I could not find it. > >P.S. I must admit, I tend to be skeptical of "spiritual teachers" who > >make big shows of performing magical tricks, like producing trinkets > >supposedly from thin air. > >To my own reading, a true spiritual man > >(of today's times anyhow) would not make such a thing his main attraction. > > So, in your opinion, my friend, do you think that it is OK for Jesus > to feed thousands of people with a few loaves of bread and fish and to > turn water into wine 2000 years ago, and that it is not OK for Sai Baba > to manifest all those things today? Jesus, in general, helped the poor, healed the sick, and did not produce trinkets for visiting important emissaries, that sort of thing. He also (according to the Gospel accounts) asked people to keep his "miracles" a secret. Here is an example: Then a leper comes up to him, pleads with him, falls down on his knees, and says to him, "If you want to, you can make me clean." Although Jesus was indignant, he stretched out his hand, touched him, and says to him, "Okay -- you're clean!" And right away the leprosy disappeared, and he was made clean. And Jesus snapped at him, and dismissed him curtly with this warning: "See that you don't tell anyone anything, but go, have a priest examine . [...] But after he went out, he started telling everyone and spreading the story, so that could no longer enter a town openly, but had to stay out in the countryside. [Gospel of Mark 1:40-45] Jesus asked the person not to tell anyone, but the person who was cured of leprosy disobeyed him and told everyone about the miracle. > >There are many stories of miracles associated with Sufis of old, however > >they are certainly not the main things about these people, rather they > >are incidental, and just amazing things people noticed without the > >Sufi concerned making a big show of it. I have also been told some > >remarkable stories about a particular contemporary Sufi, but he certainly > >claims nothing extraordinary, rather these are things his students have > >noticed about him. > > Exactly the same thing you described happens with Sai Baba! My point was, this particular Sufi Shaykh I have in mind, as far as I am aware, does not claim _anything_ regarding miracles or special occurrences. He makes no claims at all. However, his students have told me of some remarkable occurrences that have happened in his presence. He is supposed to have an excellent memory and never forget a name, even though he meets thousands of people each year. One story I was told was that a person was on a flight to meet him, and the plane hit some turbulence, and he cried out to his Shaykh.... when he finally reached the Shaykh, the Shaykh apparently knew of the difficulty and turbulence the plane had hit, this is what I was told. But this Shaykh makes _no claims_ to be able to do these things whatsoever, these are instead things told by his students. (I prefer not to give the name of this Shaykh here.) Of course, his students could be exaggerating things unconsciously, perhaps, out of their love for him, I think that this is a possibility. I really don't know if he approves or disapproves of people saying these things about him -- he might even disapprove of it, for all I know. His only "claim" (if you can call it that) is to teach the shari`ah and to try to encourage people to follow the path of Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be with him. > >This is in big contrast to a "showy" magician like > >Sai Baba, and who people generally know about because of his tricks, > >rather than for his message (I have no idea what his message is, but > >I've heard of his magic tricks). > > Many people go to him attracted by his message, while giving little > --if at all-- importance to his materializations, or see it as a > natural aspect of his reality without giving any importance. > I, for one, am attracted to him by his bold statement: "You are God!" > Sai Baba's message is found succintly in the posting sent by K.Ahmad > to this mailing list. And there are lots of his books in the market. > Well, many people based lightly their conclusions about Sai Baba on > hearsay about his supposedly "magic tricks", without bothering to > listen to his message. IMO, that is a rather unbalanced conclusion, > brought about by one's predetermined opinion of what a spiritual > guru should or should not do. (I'm sorry about this.) ;-) It seems to me that Sai Baba seems to encourage people knowing him for his "miracles," by making such a display of them. There are a number of incredible stories told by people on the Sufi path. However, I am not aware of any Sufi Shaykh (of today or the past) doing "magic" like producing trinkets from nowhere (which is really a showy display) to prove himself or herself. To my understanding, a true Sufi Shaykh may be able (with Allah's permission) to perform miracles of one kind or another, however, this is not his or her purpose, and if people are attracted to him or her because of that, then he or she has failed. The wonderful story posted by Simon Bryquer (oops, I think I may have got the surname wrong, sorry!) can mean a lot of things, but one thing it shows is how superficial people's attraction to "miracles" can be. Wassalam, Fariduddien Rice ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 17:55:35 +0100 Subject: Rod Poesy Dear Friends Rod Poesy died this afternoon. I know healing sometimes is going home. Thankyou for all your love towards our family. Love Kaffea Lalla. ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #25 ****************************